Abortion- Right or Wrong

Earthhorse

Thaedydal wrote: »

As for the spirit or souls invovled, who it to say it is not part of those souls on the wheel of life to be aborted or to be the women choosing to abort and if that is something those souls have to go through who am I to meddle or condem.

Who is to say that it is not your place to meddle or condemn? Maybe that is your part to play on the wheel of life.

Dragan wrote: »

BIG mistake there. All systems are abused by someone, somewhere and no system is flawless.

I didn't say that if a system was open to abuse it should be abandoned; I said we should consider abuse of any system when framing our legislation. Big difference.

jim o doom

Earthhorse wrote: »

Not sure that other people need it, so much as they want it. But yes we should take abuse of a system into account when deciding whether to legalise it..

That's a fair point & I agree more people definitely want it than need it, but that does not mean it isn't necessary some of the time.

Earthhorse wrote: »

Okay, ignoring abuse for a minute the basic question being asked here is; is nine months of agony worth a human life (remember I essentially regard the foetus as alive)? My answer is that the life is more valuable. That probably isn't enough for you but that is the way I see it.

alright thats fair enough too - that's your view and I'm not going to argue against it, I was just trying to see if you were completely very anti-abortion type, or if you thought it was ok in any case..

Earthhorse wrote: »

Not when you explain it, no.

Well after my earlier flippancies I have definitely tried to be more logical and less flippant because I annoyed people - but if ya don'y see that I like talking online I don't know what to do

Earthhorse wrote: »

Everything you talk about here is separate to the original point you made, regardless of whether you included full information or not. Including extra information changes the point. Suffice it to say we disagree on whether it is a human life worth protecting - you don't see it as human yet, I essentially do. Little point in going over this again.

well I thought including the extra info was vital - my claim of "who care's if "it" is alive" obviously would have made it seem like I thought it was an actual baby and its termination didnt bother me, as opposed to a group of cells becoming a child - u feel its a child right from the point of conception I wont bother going over it again, we just have different views and I wasnt sure if you had me correctly, but u ultimately did..

Earthhorse wrote: »

Well I was being labelled as pro-life so I brought it up again.

I did not intentionally label you - I have continuously called it either pro life or pro choice which is generally each sides preferred term - despite being pro choice i didnt call it anti abortion or whatever, I just stuck to the same two terms, earlier in this post is the first time I use the term anti-abortion because you prefer it. I didnt intentially label you as anything to get a rise it was just the terms I was using all the time.

jim o doom

Earthhorse wrote: »

Who is to say that it is not your place to meddle or condemn? Maybe that is your part to play on the wheel of life.
.

yeah but by that logic the pro-choice people could argue its my place to allow abortion for people who need it - its a double bladed sword

Earthhorse wrote: »

I didn't say that if a system was open to abuse it should be abandoned; I said we should consider abuse of any system when framing our legislation. Big difference.

Also here - when we consider abuse of a system when legislating, we would be considering how to prevent the abuse when designing the system & for when the system is in place. we would not generally be refusing the system which is needed because it could be abused.
I know you don't think abortion is necessary so it's moot to you that the system could be abused were it in place - just pointing out a flaw in the logic..

Overature

i think people should try things before they make up there mind about things. somebodys whos had it knows what is like.

Nevyn

http://myabortion.tumblr.com/

tbh

Dragan wrote: »

I work with statistics to make my bread and butter. You either make them up or they are right.

It's advisable to check sources very well with these things tbh.

out of interest, have you read freakonomics?

carlybabe1

Earthhorse wrote: »

Not sure that other people need it, so much as they want it.

A bit confused here, on the one hand you say it has a hugely negative psychological impact on women who have had it, I dont think any women has an abortion cause they want one, but because they feel like they need one

Okay, ignoring abuse for a minute the basic question being asked here is; is nine months of agony worth a human life (remember I essentially regard the foetus as alive)? My answer is that the life is more valuable. That probably isn't enough for you but that is the way I see it.

Thats fair enough, but I doubt any woman who has had an abortion would agree, and while there might be guilt, I think it would be interesting to know haw many of these women would turn back the clock and keep it. none of the women I know, and that in fact can add to the guilt ironically

Including extra information changes the point.

So would I be right to conclude from this that you think abortion is viable in certain extenuating circumstances?

Well I was being labelled as pro-life so I brought it up again.

I still dont get the difference, not really, and Im not being sarcastic, can you explain

Earthhorse

jim o doom wrote: »

I did not intentionally label you - I have continuously called it either pro life or pro choice which is generally each sides preferred term - despite being pro choice i didnt call it anti abortion or whatever, I just stuck to the same two terms, earlier in this post is the first time I use the term anti-abortion because you prefer it. I didnt intentially label you as anything to get a rise it was just the terms I was using all the time.

Yeah, I don't doubt you weren't intentionally labelling me anything but when you start making arguments about "pro life" people doing this and that I feel it is fair enough to distance myself from what people think of when they hear that term. I accept the debate will continue to be carried out using those terms but I register my objection.

jim o doom wrote: »

yeah but by that logic the pro-choice people could argue its my place to allow abortion for people who need it - its a double bladed sword

Hmmm, yes, I believe that was the point I was making.

jim o doom wrote: »

Also here - when we consider abuse of a system when legislating, we would be considering how to prevent the abuse when designing the system & for when the system is in place. we would not generally be refusing the system which is needed because it could be abused.
I know you don't think abortion is necessary so it's moot to you that the system could be abused were it in place - just pointing out a flaw in the logic.

It's not really a flaw in the logic though. We have to consider whether it's possible to put in place a system which supports what we actually want to achive. Let's say we decided that in cases like the one you outlined for yourself and your partner earlier that abortion was okay. And let's say we discovered that the system was so open to abuse that it would effectively mean legalising all abortions because people could just claim to be in unbearable pain. We then might decide not to go ahead with legalising this because we believe we'd be doing more harm than good.

carlybabe1, I don't know how you're doing it but you somehow manage to quote people within quotes every time! If you want to quote a post just hit the Quote button at the end of it. No need to wrap it in further quote tags if that's what you're doing. It will just make the thread more readable is all.

carlybabe1 wrote: »

A bit confused here, on the one hand you say it has a hugely negative psychological impact on women who have had it, I dont think any women has an abortion cause they want one, but because they feel like they need one

I don't contend that it does have a hugely negative impact on every woman who has it, the same way I don't think giving up a child for adoption has a hugely negative impact on all those who do that. Obviously, no woman wants to have an abortion and we can safely assume that any woman who does have one didn't want to be pregnant in the first place. My point about them wanting rather than needing abortions was that where there is no threat to their own life or serious long term health they don't need to have an abortion. They may very well want one but they don't need it.

carlybabe1 wrote: »

Thats fair enough, but I doubt any woman who has had an abortion would agree, and while there might be guilt, I think it would be interesting to know haw many of these women would turn back the clock and keep it. none of the women I know, and that in fact can add to the guilt ironically

But what does it matter whether women who've had an abortion agree with me? I'm sure many family of murder victims would like to see the death penalty introduced but I won't support that either. I can't filter all my opinions through other peoples, I have my own, for my own reasons.

I don't really understand what you are saying can add to the guilt. Turning back the clock and keeping it? You can't do that.

carlybabe1 wrote: »

So would I be right to conclude from this that you think abortion is viable in certain extenuating circumstances?

In cases where the mother's life or serious long term health is at risk or where we know the baby will be stillborn. I've already said as much on this thread.

carlybabe1 wrote: »

I still dont get the difference, not really, and Im not being sarcastic, can you explain

I don't know that I can any more clearly than I already have on this thread. It's an objection to a label that tries to cover up what we're really talking about and insinuate something mean about the opposition. It's a tactic more concerned with winning a debate than trying to express what we believe to be true. Pro-life. Pro-choice. Total load of bollocks.

CDfm

I cant get this how people can say abortion is not psychologically damaging I know 2 women very well that have been there. But one of them is hugely affected still years later.

I am hugely sympathetic to women who have had miscarriages and I suppose thats not so much behind closed doors but some women really grieve,

Carlybabe can you give me your 2 cents on this- Im talking issues not statistics

carlybabe1

Yay, finally figured out this quote thingy b***ox :)

My point about them wanting rather than needing abortions was that where there is no threat to their own life or serious long term health they don't need to have an abortion. They may very well want one but they don't need it.
[/QUOTE

I think this is the problem, as far as I am aware (open to correction on this) abortion is legal in this country for women whose life would be seriously threatened/cause unlimited psoychological/emotional damage. (I'll try post links :eek:) But heres my point, obviously the women who avail of this service feel like they need it, not that they want it.

But what does it matter whether women who've had an abortion agree with me? I'm sure many family of murder victims would like to see the death penalty introduced but I won't support that either. I can't filter all my opinions through other peoples, I have my own, for my own reasons.

I don't really understand what you are saying can add to the guilt. Turning back the clock and keeping it? You can't do that.

in previous threads you've posted that abortion has a damaging psychological effect, the point Im making is that not all women who have had an abortion would agree woth you, and if you dont see how that matters then dont speak for women who have had abortions by making statements like that and using it to bolster your arguments. And the guilt Im talking about is this, they wouldnt turn back the clock in a heartbeat, for any money, and knowing that can make them feel guilty....make them feel that they should at least feel some remorse. Im not saying all women feel this, undoubtably a lot a crucified with guilt, so please dont quote me out of context.

carlybabe1

CDfm wrote: »

I cant get this how people can say abortion is not psychologically damaging I know 2 women very well that have been there. But one of them is hugely affected still years later.

I am hugely sympathetic to women who have had miscarriages and I suppose thats not so much behind closed doors but some women really grieve,

Carlybabe can you give me your 2 cents on this- Im talking issues not statistics

Honestly, heres my 2 cents, I really believe that if a woman/ couple comes to the conclusion that an abortion is the only way forward for them, then thats with good reason. I dont believe that anyone should be able to prevent them from doing this, I do believe with all my heart that no-one that has confronted that situation has done so flippantly or without thinking long and hard about it, and I for one dont agree with people who are trying to portray this stereotype, for want of a better word. The difference between women who have a miscarriage is that ultimately, they want the baby. Women who have abortions clearly dont... Sorry if i havent answered your question, perhaps Im unclear on what you're asking

CDfm

carlybabe1 wrote: »

Honestly, heres my 2 cents, I really believe that if a woman/ couple comes to the conclusion that an abortion is the only way forward for them, then thats with good reason. I dont believe that anyone should be able to prevent them from doing this, I do believe with all my heart that no-one that has confronted that situation has done so flippantly or without thinking long and hard about it, and I for one dont agree with people who are trying to portray this stereotype, for want of a better word. The difference between women who have a miscarriage is that ultimately, they want the baby. Women who have abortions clearly dont... Sorry if i havent answered your question, perhaps Im unclear on what you're asking

I know one woman very well (or I used to) who is so psychologically damaged by her abortion that she is regularily hospitalised. Given the abortion is 13 years back she has steadily declined - her career is gone -she drinks too much has bad relationships. Ive known her for 25 years but would never have predicted that for her. Maybe thats why I dont like this dismissed with statistics.

CDfm

but I am a bit of a cynic - but Im optimistic; hope for the best, expect the worst! )

[/quote]

be a bit more optimistic and less cynical Sunny Jim

carlybabe1

CDfm wrote: »

I know one woman very well (or I used to) who is so psychologically damaged by her abortion that she is regularily hospitalised. Given the abortion is 13 years back she has steadily declined - her career is gone -she drinks too much has bad relationships. Ive known her for 25 years but would never have predicted that for her. Maybe thats why I dont like this dismissed with statistics.

cant say I blame you there, thats awfull for her, god love her. I do know women who have had abortions, and yes there are times when they would tell me that they feel melancholy and think what if, but when I ask them would they still do it if they knew then what they know now and the answer is always no. Although they might feel sad sometimes they know they done the right thing for themselves at that time.

Earthhorse

carlybabe1 wrote: »

I think this is the problem, as far as I am aware (open to correction on this) abortion is legal in this country for women whose life would be seriously threatened/cause unlimited psoychological/emotional damage. (I'll try post links :eek:) But heres my point, obviously the women who avail of this service feel like they need it, not that they want it.

Yes, I would agree with you on that in this country. If we look at the UK situation though where their abortion laws are more liberal and what tallaght01 posted earlier it seems to be a lot easier to get an abortion and I'd find it hard to believe all those who did actually needed one.

carlybabe1 wrote: »

in previous threads you've posted that abortion has a damaging psychological effect,

In previous threads? Are you sure you aren't getting me mixed up with someone else? This is the only thread on abortion I've significantly contributed to.

carlybabe1 wrote: »

the point Im making is that not all women who have had an abortion would agree woth you, and if you dont see how that matters then dont speak for women who have had abortions by making statements like that and using it to bolster your arguments.

Sorry, but I'm not speaking for women who have had abortions; they are speaking for themselves. If they tell us that an abortion has caused them grief or hurt or trauma I'm entitled to refer to that. And all I suggested earlier in the thread was that having abortions can cause women a lot of emotional pain and that were we to legalise it it would be important to encourage them to talk openly about it. Do you really disagree with that?

carlybabe1 wrote: »

And the guilt Im talking about is this, they wouldnt turn back the clock in a heartbeat, for any money, and knowing that can make them feel guilty....make them feel that they should at least feel some remorse. Im not saying all women feel this, undoubtably a lot a crucified with guilt, so please dont quote me out of context.

Yes, so even women who are confident that they have made the right decision with regard to having an abortion can feel upset about it. It's a tough decision to make, I agree. I didn't quote you out of context by the way. I explicitly said I didn't understand the point you were making and made a stab at interpreting it, nothing more.

Zulu

Overature wrote: »

i think people should try things before they make up there mind about things. somebodys whos had it knows what is like.

Have you taught that one through?

Should I try arsenic/murder/anthrax/rape/bleach/theft/joy riding/... before I decide that it's bad?

eveie

dragon are you saying that this "soul" or "spirit" doesnt exist until the child is born? that just because it is outside of the womb that suddenly the child has this "soul" or "spirit" because as you obviuosly know a child can be born 3 months premature and so on, so is this only created when the child is born? also what about children who are born with serious mental disibilities? many of them do not have the capacity of thought does that make them not worthy of the tag "human"? ive seen a very very premanture baby who didnt survive, but i know the child was human, i know it had that soul or spirit or what ever you wish to call it. imagine if i turned round to this childs parents and tapped them on the back and said "ah dont worry sure its really not human"

eveie

carlybabe i still havent figured out the quote thing....bloody annoying

carlybabe1

Yes, I would agree with you on that in this country. If we look at the UK situation though where their abortion laws are more liberal and what tallaght01 posted earlier it seems to be a lot easier to get an abortion and I'd find it hard to believe all those who did actually needed one.

I do get your point, but I dont think you're quite getting mine, If you asked any woman that had an abortion, they wouldn't tell you "I wanted one" they would tell you that they needed one, as far as they would be concerned thier reason for having an abortion was just as valid as anyone elses. If they didnt think that then chances are they wouldnt go through with it.

In previous threads? Are you sure you aren't getting me mixed up with someone else? This is the only thread on abortion I've significantly contributed to.

Sorry I mmeant to say in previous posts

Sorry, but I'm not speaking for women who have had abortions; they are speaking for themselves. If they tell us that an abortion has caused them grief or hurt or trauma I'm entitled to refer to that. And all I suggested earlier in the thread was that having abortions can cause women a lot of emotional pain and that were we to legalise it it would be important to encourage them to talk openly about it. Do you really disagree with that?

Absolutely not, I do think that it should be discussed more openly, but I also think that the reason its not is because women are made to feel ashamed of it, and as a result this can cause trauma

Yes, so even women who are confident that they have made the right decision with regard to having an abortion can feel upset about it. It's a tough decision to make, I agree. I didn't quote you out of context by the way. I explicitly said I didn't understand the point you were making and made a stab at interpreting it, nothing more.

Yes they do, and what I was tryin to explain is that part of that upset comes from being made to feel ashamed,and being made to feel that they ought to feel guilty. (This is by no means a dig at you) Often when leaving the clinics they are faced with maniacs waving banners of babies in thier faces and being called names, when already they are emotionally vulnerable. This can have more of an effect than the procedure itself

Dragan

eveie wrote: »

dragon are you saying that this "soul" or "spirit" doesnt exist until the child is born? that just because it is outside of the womb that suddenly the child has this "soul" or "spirit" because as you obviuosly know a child can be born 3 months premature and so on, so is this only created when the child is born? also what about children who are born with serious mental disibilities? many of them do not have the capacity of thought does that make them not worthy of the tag "human"? ive seen a very very premanture baby who didnt survive, but i know the child was human, i know it had that soul or spirit or what ever you wish to call it. imagine if i turned round to this childs parents and tapped them on the back and said "ah dont worry sure its really not human"

Now that my dear is what we call taking things out of context. I simply said the for me the definition of a "being" is a complicated one, and i would not attempt to comment on the noncorporal simply because someone physical body or mental aptitude may be disabled in some way.

As i said, a small clump of sells, or even a large clump of cells that lack the basics required to carry out the markers of being a unique "individual" such as thought, feeling, emotion etc.....I do not consider that to be a life, or a being, or an intelligence or a child....whatever way you choose to describe it.

Thats two different threads you have ran to the disabled people argument when it wasn't even mentioned as a point.

As i said, i would not seek to offer advice on when the "spiritual" comes into it, if i could answer that question i would be a lucky man. I do however feel that the physical and the spiritual go hand in hand, the human body has establised systems that carry out thought, that feel pain or pleasure.

These things make someone human to me. The mentally disabled still think, still feel. I don't see what point you are making.

I find your line that many of them do not have the capacity for thought to be insulting. Having worked with mentally disabled children in the past i can assure you they are in every way as human as the rest of us.

Dragan

CDfm wrote: »

I know one woman very well (or I used to) who is so psychologically damaged by her abortion that she is regularily hospitalised. Given the abortion is 13 years back she has steadily declined - her career is gone -she drinks too much has bad relationships. Ive known her for 25 years but would never have predicted that for her. Maybe thats why I dont like this dismissed with statistics.

A friend of mine is a 37 year old woman. She used to have a career in Event Management. A massive high stress job. In her time she was the person behind events for visiting heads of state, for religious figures, for incredibly famous actors and actress etc.

She had a nervous breakdown about 5 years ago and is now a shell of herself. This was caused by the psychological and emotional stress of her job.

Should me make Event Management illegal because of that or should we accept the fact that people make choices, at the time hopefully the best choices they can and these may or may not have an impact on us further down the road.

CDfm

plus two people arguing - one who believes in the spirit and one who does not, are going to have serious problems because they don't have a common ground on the issue.

I'd like to think there is some sort of spirit or spark in us too - but I don't really believe there is (but I am a bit of a cynic - but Im optimistic; hope for the best, expect the worst! )

[/quote]

So leave souls etc to others - I for one am not offended by the odd anti- religous smart comment

BTW - with all this optimism may I now call you Sunny Jim:rolleyes:

CDfm

Dragan wrote: »

A friend of mine is a 37 year old woman. She used to have a career in Event Management. A massive high stress job. In her time she was the person behind events for visiting heads of state, for religious figures, for incredibly famous actors and actress etc.

She had a nervous breakdown about 5 years ago and is now a shell of herself. This was caused by the psychological and emotional stress of her job.

Should me make Event Management illegal because of that or should we accept the fact that people make choices, at the time hopefully the best choices they can and these may or may not have an impact on us further down the road.

sorry about your friend.Event management is a very high stress and exacting career. I hope she recovers or finds something new she can excel in.

Of course we should not make event management illegal.

The point I was making was that in my - albeit limited - experience that a few sessions with a councellor saying " you know how good you felt when you had your abortion etc" might work for some but not for all.

I know it didnt for my friend - so rather than reject whats being said out of hand - I asked for opinions.I am making a point but I dont have any smug answer
.

eveie

dragon you took me up wrong and i apologies for taking you up wrong. idont have a very good way with words, wasnt blessed with the best vocab.
i have also worked alot with disabled children and adults, ive seen many different conditions, and yes i have seen children and adults who wouldnt have the capicity of thought like a normal healthy person does.. i am in no way saying they are in any way less human, im just stating this point as you mentioned the capicity of thought.
just wondring dragon when would you consider it not ok to abort, at what stage in the pregnancy? and why?
the unborn baby can feel pain, can dream, and it hass been proven over and over again, there are famous images of a child going through an abortion and the child is moving away from the needle. operations are beomeing more popular for unborn children with such disibilities as spina bifida, these children have to be sadated, yet the same child can still be aborted? surely you think thats wrong?

CDfm

eveie wrote: »

dragon are you saying that this "soul" or "spirit" doesnt exist until the child is born? that just because it is outside of the womb that suddenly the child has this "soul" or "spirit" because as you obviuosly know a child can be born 3 months premature and so on, so is this only created when the child is born? also what about children who are born with serious mental disibilities? many of them do not have the capacity of thought does that make them not worthy of the tag "human"? ive seen a very very premanture baby who didnt survive, but i know the child was human, i know it had that soul or spirit or what ever you wish to call it. imagine if i turned round to this childs parents and tapped them on the back and said "ah dont worry sure its really not human"

that is a good point eevie.

this will go against some of my own beliefs but years back as a student I did some work with the mentally handicapped at a care home/training center with a christian ethos. You would need that kind of optimism to make a career of it I think.

A parent came to me one day and said I shouldnt think this I know I believe my daughter should be a gift from God etc so I should be thankful she is happy- but I hope she dies before I do. So who was going to bring her jaffa cakes etc every week!

I often thought what would I do - I cant say with any certainty what I would do. If a child were to be born disabled would I take the abortion route.

eveie

what im trying to say is people pick and choose when to call a child a child, a baby a baby, as i said a women can abort a "clump of cells" at 12 weeks yet 2 years later be 12 weeks pregnant with her "first child" now that is what bugs me big time, you cannot pick and choose when a life is viable, you cannot play "God" (im not saying that from a religious view point) no one has the right to say when life begins or ends. what women need t understand is that yes its their body that is carrying this child but the child is a seperate enitity to them, if they can still abort knowing or at least realising this then theres not much else i can say really.
im well aware that abortion has been going on for hundreds of years, but so has murder it doesnt make it right.
its annoying that so many pro-choice people believe that anyone against abortion or pro-life is cold hearted and doesnt care for the women. i have compassion for any pregnant women, but i also have compassion for the unborn and because they are the voiceless ones i feel i need to speak out on this, surley that canot be considered cold hearted. i value every being as an individual, i value all life and if theres one thing i cannot abide is the vunerable been taken advantage off, weather they be unborn, disabled or elderly

CDfm

I value life too and probably would be described as pro-life.

But some of the points are made by pro-abortionist posters whose views I dont nesscessarily agree with are worth an airing.

Being so close to the UK anyone who wants an abortion can get one. Its not like we have an underground bunch of women like carlybabe1 running a network with false passports and travel docs.

I am just pointing out because I havent been thru a situation with a mentally handicapped child I dont know how I would react but I expect I would consider abortion - it would be a real moral dilemma. No escaping it the issue was raised by you and I have addressed it.

eveie

cdfm i never raised the issue of keeping a disabled child, i was just responding to a post dragon made where he talked about the capicity of thought.
but since youve brought it up, it is without a doubt a very difficult thing for any family, i have personal experience with this issue, im also involved with a few groups who help out familys with disabled children. i have seen the joy these kids bring to their family and ive seen the pain, many of them do not have a long life expectancy, but the feeling you get from caring for a disabled child that is so vunerable is amazing, theydont look for materilistic objects they just want to be loved. we cannot say that x's life is less worthy because he/she doesnt have the capicity to look after itself. these children truely are gifts they completley change a familys dynamic, but it makes people value life more. im rambleing

CDfm

eveie wrote: »

cdfm i never raised the issue of keeping a disabled child, i was just responding to a post dragon made where he talked about the capicity of thought.
but since youve brought it up, it is without a doubt a very difficult thing for any family, i have personal experience with this issue, im also involved with a few groups who help out familys with disabled children. i have seen the joy these kids bring to their family and ive seen the pain, many of them do not have a long life expectancy, but the feeling you get from caring for a disabled child that is so vunerable is amazing, theydont look for materilistic objects they just want to be loved. we cannot say that x's life is less worthy because he/she doesnt have the capicity to look after itself. these children truely are gifts they completley change a familys dynamic, but it makes people value life more. im rambleing

Its an uncomfortable issue - anyway - I am sure Dragan wont mind commenting on this.

After all he is a ........

Dragan

eveie wrote: »

just wondring dragon when would you consider it not ok to abort, at what stage in the pregnancy? and why?
the unborn baby can feel pain, can dream, and it hass been proven over and over again, there are famous images of a child going through an abortion and the child is moving away from the needle. operations are beomeing more popular for unborn children with such disibilities as spina bifida, these children have to be sadated, yet the same child can still be aborted? surely you think thats wrong?

I imagine in the case of operations it would be insane to operate on an unsadated patient, wether they could feel pain or not. Any possible movement could be a disaster.

As i said yesterday ( i think! ) i would be fine with first Trimester abortions, after that i would have some issue with the fact that a CNS ( central nervous system ) is developing. Before this i do not consider it possible to feel pain simple because it is the central nervous system that takes pain or pleasure responses to and from the brain.

As for the child moving away from the needle, if you put a single cell ogranism on a slide under a microscope and poke it with a needle it will try and move away.