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Abortion- Right or Wrong

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  • 27-08-2008 11:22am
    #1
    eveie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 307 ✭✭


    ok so im carrying over the debate from the ladies lounge as i was told to.
    i would like peoples opinion on weather thy thing abortion is right or wrong.
    now im aware that thousands of women from ireland have abortion every year but do you think abortion in itself is ok or not.


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    #2
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    I'll just copy and paste from the thread in the Atheism forum:


    Ultimately, I might seem a bit cold for saying this, but I really amn't too pushed about the death of something with zero real life experience or anything to define them as a unique person (DNA means nothing to me in this context).


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    #3
    AngryBadger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    I think abortion is wrong. With the amount of contraception options available to people these days I really don't see how so many people can just "find" themselves pregnant.

    I accept there are people who genuinely find themselves in the family way quite by accident having used contraception correctly and so on, but I think most people that find themselves with an unplanned pregnancy probably got there by being irresponsible.

    For me the issue is one of accountability, a lot of people will say "so you'd force a woman to bring a child to term", but that's not really the issue, if people were more responsible about sex, if children were better educated as to the need for safe sex, if Ireland wasn't so close-minded to even talking about sex, I think we'd see a huge reduction in the number of unplanned pregnancies.

    So I guess my point, in short, is that a lot of people are going about their daily lives with no responsible attitude toward sex, and essentially using abortion as a kind of post-contraception, which I have a huge problem with. If someone becomes pregnant, and it's not planned, why not give the child up for adoption? There are loads of couples unable to have kids that are travelling the length and breadth of the world to find children they can adopt.


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    #4
    all the stars
    Registered Users Posts: 1,058 ✭✭✭all the stars


    Totally a case by case thing.

    im 100% pro choice.
    whats right for 1 person might not be right for another.

    It should at least be an option.
    i personally wouldn't imagine i'd go for it- however, that choice is mine to make. and so it should be.


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    #5
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    I'll just copy and paste from the thread in the Atheism forum:


    Ultimately, I might seem a bit cold for saying this, but I really amn't too pushed about the death of something with zero real life experience or anything to define them as a unique person (DNA means nothing to me in this context).

    I feel much the same way. I think you need more than just DNA to qualify as a human. A person with relationships, life experiences, memories is to me, much more important to a foetus that I might give birth to.


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    #6
    Earthhorse
    Registered Users Posts: 14,715 ✭✭✭✭Earthhorse


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Ultimately, I might seem a bit cold for saying this, but I really amn't too pushed about the death of something with zero real life experience or anything to define them as a unique person (DNA means nothing to me in this context).
    Malari wrote: »
    I feel much the same way. I think you need more than just DNA to qualify as a human. A person with relationships, life experiences, memories is to me, much more important to a foetus that I might give birth to.

    Would you extend this logic to someone who is a minute old? A day old? A week old? What is your cut off point?


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    #7
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Earthhorse wrote: »
    Would you extend this logic to someone who is a minute old? A day old? A week old? What is your cut off point?
    Birth. And yes it is somewhat arbitrary, but no more arbitrary than conception, and a lot more practical for the world we live in.


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    #8
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    AngryBadger wrote: »
    For me the issue is one of accountability, a lot of people will say "so you'd force a woman to bring a child to term", but that's not really the issue, if people were more responsible about sex, if children were better educated as to the need for safe sex, if Ireland wasn't so close-minded to even talking about sex, I think we'd see a huge reduction in the number of unplanned pregnancies.

    True but contraception is not always 100% and not every woman can use horror moanal contraception and there will be still women who on finding they are pregnant will not want to continue the pregnancy.
    AngryBadger wrote: »
    So I guess my point, in short, is that a lot of people are going about their daily lives with no responsible attitude toward sex, and essentially using abortion as a kind of post-contraception, which I have a huge problem with.

    Me too that is not acceptable behaviour.
    AngryBadger wrote: »
    If someone becomes pregnant, and it's not planned, why not give the child up for adoption? There are loads of couples unable to have kids that are travelling the length and breadth of the world to find children they can adopt.

    There are several factors why a woman woudl not do this, ideally yes we would have a society where this would be supported by employeers, family ect so that it would be seen as a noble thing to do but that is not the world we live in.

    IF you found that someone you slept with was pregnant and she didn't want the child would you raise it ?
    If you wanted the child put up for adoption would you be there for her for the duration of the pregnacy and afterwards fully supporting her ?


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    #9
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    Earthhorse wrote: »
    Would you extend this logic to someone who is a minute old? A day old? A week old? What is your cut off point?

    Personally? I would abort as soon as I found out I was pregnant. And a person who is born does have a connection with the parent, so the logic is applied to a foetus. I don't have to specify a cut-off point to have the view that abortion is suitable for some people.


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    #10
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Me too that is not acceptable behaviour.
    Why not?


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    #11
    Earthhorse
    Registered Users Posts: 14,715 ✭✭✭✭Earthhorse


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Birth. And yes it is somewhat arbitrary, but no more arbitrary than conception, and a lot more practical for the world we live in.

    I think it is a little more arbitrary than conception, though any point we pick will ultimately be arbitrary. Failing to see how it's more practical though.
    Malari wrote: »
    Personally? I would abort as soon as I found out I was pregnant. And a person who is born does have a connection with the parent, so the logic is applied to a foetus. I don't have to specify a cut-off point to have the view that abortion is suitable for some people.

    No, you don't. You don't have to do anything if you don't want.


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    #12
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    There are other threads on this. However, seeing as you asked for an opinion:

    Abortion as family planning is wrong.

    Why? Because I think it's wrong to kill another person, for the sake of convenience.


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    #13
    AngryBadger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    True but contraception is not always 100% and not every woman can use horror moanal contraception and there will be still women who on finding they are pregnant will not want to continue the pregnancy.

    True, but I would not be comfortable having unprotected sex with my gf if she was on the pill. Mainly because I know it's not 100 % effective, granted you could argue the same about condoms, but I feel the individual variation is a huger factor where people are taking the pill, and it's largely impossible to account for, i.e. how to know it will work with person A, but not person B.

    Thaedydal wrote: »
    There are several factors why a woman woudl not do this, ideally yes we would have a society where this would be supported by employeers, family ect so that it would be seen as a noble thing to do but that is not the world we live in.

    IF you found that someone you slept with was pregnant and she didn't want the child would you raise it ?
    If you wanted the child put up for adoption would you be there for her for the duration of the pregnacy and afterwards fully supporting her ?

    You're correct about that "not being the world we live in", but isn't the obvious solution not to wind up in that situation? I do acknowledge that a small percentage of individuals will be unlucky enough to wind up pregnant in spite of their best efforts, but those are the exception, I think most people who find themselves with an unplanned pregnancy do so because they were just stupid and irresponsible.

    I'm not trying to undermine the difficulty in giving up a child for adoption after carrying it for 9 months, but the reality is that having an abortion may leave a woman with serious problems as well, (as indeed it may do to the male half of the equation), but neither is an adequate "solution", to my mind the only solution is for people to be more accoutnable to themselves for what they do.

    Granted we could get into semantics re: the question is on the rightness/wrongness of abortion, but I think that question in and of itself serves no purpose other than to muddy the already murky waters around why people keep winding up with these unplanned pregnancies and then getting abortions.


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    #14
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    IF you found that someone you slept with was pregnant and she didn't want the child would you raise it ?
    I'd encourage her to give the child to me.
    If you wanted the child put up for adoption would you be there for her for the duration of the pregnacy and afterwards fully supporting her ?
    Naturally. I'd be a bit apprehensive about the "afterwards" though. I take it you are talking about post-natal depression?


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    #15
    TerrorFirmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    Don't believe it can ever be justified as 'right', but that doesn't necessarily mean I don't understand why people consider it OK in varying contexts, or fail to respect their personal opinion on the matter.

    It might be interesting to see a poll to assert general opinion, I think discussion on the topic has been done sufficiently many times in the past and it gets quite heated.


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    #16
    gcgirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭gcgirl


    i am pro choice but i do not agree with it used as contraception ! There is plenty of other methods or whatever to use in order of not getting pregnant! personally i think the cut off point should be 12 weeks for a termination. When it gets to 23/24 weeks it can survive outside the womb(source unit 8 hollo's st spent 6 months there with my lil sister ) it's not all black and white there is plenty of grey ! I know a girl who just after having a down's baby and she is going to be in and out of hospital but she would not swap her for anything ! .


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    #17
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Malari wrote: »
    I feel much the same way. I think you need more than just DNA to qualify as a human. A person with relationships, life experiences, memories is to me, much more important to a foetus that I might give birth to.

    so you would have no objection to a new born baby being aborted then?


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    #18
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Earthhorse wrote: »
    I think it is a little more arbitrary than conception, though any point we pick will ultimately be arbitrary. Failing to see how it's more practical though.
    Well a woman can conceive by accident, but can't give birth by accident.


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    #19
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    nacho libre wrote: »
    so you would have no objection to a new born baby being aborted then?

    See my previous reply - I already answered this question.


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    #20
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    Zulu wrote: »
    I'd encourage her to give the child to me.

    But this still takes the choice out of the woman's hands. So she has to go through an entire pregnancy, which she doesn't want to do, apart from having a child at the end of it.


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    #21
    eveie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 307 ✭✭eveie


    ok well as many of you will know, i am pro-life.
    i do not believe that abortion is a choice or a right, no one has the right to take a life. the only way to say when life begins is to say it begins at conception if this is not done then who is going to draw the line. a few yrs ago it was acceptable to abort a child of 22-24 wks post conception now with medical advances its not, as ive said before an abortion can be carried out on a 22 wk old baby with no seditive yet surgeons have preformend operations on unborn babies at this age and have obviously had to sadate them.
    abortion is seen as a righ it is NOT a right, i understand that many women find themselves in tough situations but no situation can excuse the killing of a human being.
    the argument of what happend if the women was raped? well the women is already after going thorugh a major violation of her body why put her through another one? if i was suffering from depression and my doctor told me to cure it il remove your abdomen id tell him where to go. abortion will not cure the trauma of being raped or cure depression.
    also there are many risks associated with abortion, infertility, suicide, increaed risk of breast cancer women do not realise this.
    its not "just your body" when the "thing" which i would refere to as a child your killing has a completley different set of dna then you, it is not a "just your body" when there is not just your heart beat but your childs heart beat as well and it is not "just your body" when the child produces brain waves


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    #22
    AngryBadger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    gcgirl wrote: »
    i am pro choice

    What about the choice to not get pregnant? Not having a dig at you incidentally gcgirl, you just happened to say "pro-choice" which made for a handy quote :D


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    #23
    eveie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 307 ✭✭eveie


    the women does not have a right to choose if her child should live or die simple as, if the women was injectiing heroine up her veins id say yeah ok, its her choice, shes not harming anyone else.


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    #24
    Earthhorse
    Registered Users Posts: 14,715 ✭✭✭✭Earthhorse


    Malari wrote: »
    But this still takes the choice out of the woman's hands. So she has to go through an entire pregnancy, which she doesn't want to do, apart from having a child at the end of it.

    On the other hand legalising abortion takes the choice of whether to keep and raise a child entirely out of the man's hands.


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    #25
    eveie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 307 ✭✭eveie


    how do men feel about the women saying "its my choice" if you found out that your child was going to be aborted would you so easily say oh well its the womens choice


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    #26
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Malari wrote: »
    See my previous reply - I already answered this question.

    sorry about that. i saw that as soon as i posted. :o

    It's handy you don't have to specify a cut off point.

    Anyway in my view you are wrong that killing/aborting is a suitable option. Thankfully most people in this country see it the same way. So abortion won't be legal here anytime soon.


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    #27
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    eveie wrote: »
    how do men feel about the women saying "its my choice" if you found out that your child was going to be aborted would you so easily say oh well its the womens choice

    i wouldn't. however, it is a nice double standard that some women employ.


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    #28
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    eveie wrote: »
    no situation can excuse the killing of a human being.
    I disagree.

    The death of an unborn, unwanted child is of no consequence to society. And just because I take this position doesn't mean I advocate the killing of any other human ex utero.

    So therefore, the one situation where I would advocate the killing of a human being would be if it were unborn, as I don't see any inherent need to grant it any rights.


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    #29
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Malari wrote: »
    But this still takes the choice out of the woman's hands. So she has to go through an entire pregnancy, which she doesn't want to do, apart from having a child at the end of it.
    And what of the fathers choice?
    Or the childs choice?

    ..or do these two people not count?


    I


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    #30
    eveie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 307 ✭✭eveie


    excatly nacho libre, i find it terrible that a women could pick or choose.
    i often think of how id feel if my mother was pro-choice and if she would have no problem aborting a baby, i think id actualy feel pretty insecure about it, i mean if she was of that mind frame she could have aborted me,but many i was lcuky. you see life is not about luck, its about rights and every child regardless of age, sex, location, disability has the right to experience life in whatever way they can.


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    #31
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    Earthhorse wrote: »
    On the other hand legalising abortion takes the choice of whether to keep and raise a child entirely out of the man's hands.

    Yes, this is true in some circumstances. But a man's investment in reproduction is over at conception, whereas a woman needs to invest a lot more through pregnancy. So it's not exactly the same.


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