What are the odds?

Zombrex · 22-08-2008 03:14PM

TravelJunkie wrote: »

I think there is a place and time for acceptance of things we do not fully understand.

Not sure what you mean. Why would there be a time to accept something you don't understand?

Understanding is something to be constantly striving for, not abandoned at the first time of challenge.

Zombrex · 22-08-2008 03:25PM

PDN wrote: »

Ah, but when I had atheism I had none of that. For some reason the wonderful coincidences didn't start happening for me until I was deluded by Christianity.

I assure you that you would. We all experience wonderful coincidences, it is just a question of having a good positive out look on life to see the wonder in existence.

You believe that Christianity turned your life around from the mess it was in, but it was really you who turned your own life around. You just needed some inspiration. People have done the same thing after watching "Dead Poets Society", having a health scare or seeing the Grand Canon.

It just takes will power.

* disclaimer - thats my opinion at least :pac::D

TravelJunkie · 22-08-2008 03:45PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Not sure what you mean. Why would there be a time to accept something you don't understand?

Understanding is something to be constantly striving for, not abandoned at the first time of challenge.

Yeah, but how much striving will it take? Visible by these threads, one question will always be followed by another then another then another. Then the points get confused and branch out in different directions until the original question is completely diluted.

I had to accept the Jesus' gospel at face value and act on it. For example, how much digging would it take for it to be acceptable to you?

jackdaw · 22-08-2008 03:49PM

PDN wrote: »

Two weeks ago I was taking a few days break in Houston, Texas with my family. We had to be at a conference in San Antonio on the Monday - so we decided to drive across a couple of days early, on the Saturday. I was dealing with some difficult work situations and was praying, "God, I really need you to do something special to show me that you are in control and work things together for good."

Meanwhile, my next door neighbour has been preaching in churches in Florida for the last 2 months. He was also going to the same Conference in San Antonio and, unbeknown to me, also decided to get there a bit early. So on Thursday he started driving from Miami to San Antonio. Unfortunately he had no directions as to how to find the Conference venue - so as he made his way through the Florida Panhandle, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana etc. he prayed for God to help him find directions.

About 40 miles out of Houston I realised that we were low on gas so, on the spur of the moment, I swung into a beat-up old gas station beside the Interstate. My wife was asking, "What on earth are you doing?" as we always call at nice clean gas stations with decent rest rooms etc. I answered, "I don't know. It just seemed like the right thing to do."

As I got out of my car to pump gas I heard a voice saying, "No! I don't bellieve it!" There, on the other side of the same gas pump, was my next door neighbour. At first it took a while to register with me that it was him since I didn't recognise the car he had borrowed for the week.

I was able to give him directions to the Conference venue in San Antonio (I had assumed he would have flown there) and I got my reassurance that God was in control.

For the remainder of the trip to San Antonio (another three hours) I just kept laughing at this 'coincidence' and wondered what are the odds against us both being at the very same gas pump at the same location at the same time.

Oh, and by the way, God sorted out those work problems just fine.

Delusional ...

and sick ...

God looks down on the world .. and sees all the starving kids, and the human
rights violations that are occuring, ignores them .. but he singles out you .. to help your next door neighbour to get to a conference ??

And he sorted out your work problems .. yes .. maybe it was Zeus .. or Thor
or the great big Spaghetti monster in the sky...

JimiTime · 22-08-2008 03:50PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Yes but think at how much happier you would be if you had all that and atheism as well :pac:

Why would it be better with Atheism? Atheism is without hope. Atheism is all negativity. Its 'I don't'. It offers absolutely nothing. PDN has taken a manual from the designer and creator of Life. This creator tells us the best way to live. Trusting the guidence contained in the book has shown PDN happiness. The only way I see Atheism 'seeming' better to the individual, is if that individual has desires which go against Gods guidence. Though, 'seeming' is the operative word.

Zombrex · 22-08-2008 03:51PM

TravelJunkie wrote: »

I had to accept the Jesus' gospel at face value and act on it.

Why though? That is the bit I'm not following. Why take it on face value and act on it?

TravelJunkie wrote: »

For example, how much digging would it take for it to be acceptable to you?

A huge, huge amount. Though I consider that a good thing not a bad thing.

JimiTime · 22-08-2008 03:54PM

jackdaw wrote: »

Delusional ...

and sick ...

Sorry to hear that. Get well soon.

TravelJunkie · 22-08-2008 04:06PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Why though? That is the bit I'm not following. Why take it on face value and act on it?

A huge, huge amount. Though I consider that a good thing not a bad thing.

But what exactly.

As to your first question, something in me allows me to trust. And secondly, sometimes answers can be 'that simple'.

jackdaw · 22-08-2008 04:08PM

JimiTime wrote: »

Why would it be better with Atheism? Atheism is without hope. Atheism is all negativity. Its 'I don't'. It offers absolutely nothing. PDN has taken a manual from the designer and creator of Life. This creator tells us the best way to live. Trusting the guidence contained in the book has shown PDN happiness. The only way I see Atheism 'seeming' better to the individual, is if that individual has desires which go against Gods guidence. Though, 'seeming' is the operative word.

Again, why do we need a God to show us the way to live ?

it's about respect for your fellow man .. for all life .. we don't need a god
to show us this,

PDN · 22-08-2008 04:31PM

jackdaw wrote: »

Again, why do we need a God to show us the way to live ?

it's about respect for your fellow man .. for all life .. we don't need a god
to show us this,

Now that is sick and delusional!

History demonstrates that, when it comes to having respect for our fellow men and for life, human nature is inadequate. We need God's help.

Fanny Cradock · 22-08-2008 04:32PM

jackdaw wrote: »

Again, why do we need a God to show us the way to live ?

it's about respect for your fellow man .. for all life .. we don't need a god
to show us this,

You speak of it as if we believe we need the notion of a God - like some sort of metaphysical blanket. We believe there is a God. Plain and simple.

So it's all about respect for fellow man? It's just that simple?

Zombrex · 22-08-2008 04:34PM

JimiTime wrote: »

Why would it be better with Atheism? Atheism is without hope. Atheism is all negativity. Its 'I don't'. It offers absolutely nothing.

Er, what? Atheism is without hope? Where are you getting that from? Hope for what?

I'm an atheist and I've lots of hope. But beyond that "hope" is over rated. There are more important emotions such as empathy, kindness and wonder. These do not require a religion to inspire, though religion often does, and in many ways are more potent without a religious framework.

JimiTime wrote: »

PDN has taken a manual from the designer and creator of Life. This creator tells us the best way to live. Trusting the guidence contained in the book has shown PDN happiness.

Well no, that is my point.

PDN turned his own life around (in my view of course). The Bible contains some very nice things about striving to be a better person, but anyone can strive to be a better person, you don't need religion, though religion often acts as inspiration for some people without the strength or will to do it on their own initiative.

Ultimately what he did could have been done without Christianity, and in my view would have been even better for it.

Zombrex · 22-08-2008 04:39PM

TravelJunkie wrote: »

But what exactly.

Well where to begin

A re-writing of the Old Testament for a start or a divorce of Jesus' message from the Old Testament. It also would help if Jesus' message made sense.

TravelJunkie wrote: »

As to your first question, something in me allows me to trust.

But why would you want to trust in the first place?

Fanny Cradock · 22-08-2008 04:40PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Ultimately what he did could have been done without Christianity, and in my view would have been even better for it.

It's strange, though, that you feel qualified to make that judgement when the person whose life you are critiquing just so happens to disagree with you. Do you think there is a fair possibility that you are incorrect?

Zombrex · 22-08-2008 04:41PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You speak of it as if we believe we need the notion of a God - like some sort of metaphysical blanket.

Well isn't that what PDN is saying?

Ultimately people, humans, don't need God to justify being nice to each other, it is just what some people need because they are lost to justify any other way.

Pompey Magnus · 22-08-2008 04:41PM

PDN wrote: »

Now that is sick and delusional!

History demonstrates that, when it comes to having respect for our fellow men and for life, human nature is inadequate. We need God's help.

Where is the evidence for this? Human behaviour seems to pretty much the same with or without God.

Off the top of my head I think of the example of the South American. Prior to the arrival of Christianity the various tribes fought wars between themselves and offered human sacrifices to appease their gods. At exactly the same time in Christian Europe the various states were fighting wars between themselves and offering human sacrifices to appease their God.

Where is the evidence from human history to show a new found morality in civilizations which occurs only after (and directly because of) being introduced to God?

Fanny Cradock · 22-08-2008 05:04PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Ultimately people, humans, don't need God to justify being nice to each other

I've not argued otherwise. If I had you would be correct to highlight this. However, in the past, I've been at pains to point out my belief that a Christian isn't automatically a better or more moral person than a non_Christian.

I posted a reply to Jackdaw because, to me, the implication of his post was that we need the notion of God simply to explain away things, which completely misrepresents and cheapens the depth of belief held by many.

Zombrex · 22-08-2008 05:19PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I've not argued otherwise.

I know, but others appear to be.

PDN · 22-08-2008 05:43PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Ultimately what he did could have been done without Christianity, and in my view would have been even better for it.

Ah yes, the power of atheism to turn around the lives of alcoholics etc. And the evidence for this happening is ... what exactly?

PDN · 22-08-2008 05:51PM

Charco wrote: »

Where is the evidence for this? Human behaviour seems to pretty much the same with or without God.

Off the top of my head I think of the example of the South American. Prior to the arrival of Christianity the various tribes fought wars between themselves and offered human sacrifices to appease their gods. At exactly the same time in Christian Europe the various states were fighting wars between themselves and offering human sacrifices to appease their God.

Where is the evidence from human history to show a new found morality in civilizations which occurs only after (and directly because of) being introduced to God?

That is untestable in civilizations as there has never been a truly atheist civilization or a truly Christian civilization. Human nature is pretty destructive and abusive, so it easy to produce examples of people who behaved badly while professing atheism, Buddhism, Christianity etc.

However, here is a challenge.

Evidence galore exists in the lives of those who were violent or abusive people whiole rejecting the concept of God, yet dramatically changed for the better after their conversion to Christianity. I was one such person.

How many examples can you find of people who were violent and abusive devout Christians yet changed dramatically for the better after they converted to atheism? I would be genuinely interested in hearing of any such testimonies to the power of atheism.

Galvasean · 22-08-2008 06:02PM

PDN wrote: »

Ah yes, the power of atheism to turn around the lives of alcoholics etc. And the evidence for this happening is ... what exactly?

My father for one. Probably shouldn't go into detail.

Galvasean · 22-08-2008 06:06PM

jackdaw wrote: »

Delusional ...

and sick ...

God looks down on the world .. and sees all the starving kids, and the human
rights violations that are occuring, ignores them .. but he singles out you .. to help your next door neighbour to get to a conference ??

I taught I'd quote you there because Christian posters here focused on the words 'delusional' and 'sick' while totally avoiding (very valid) the question you posted.
I totally agree that God seems a bit daft going out of his way to help some guy bump into his neighbour in a petrol station while overlooking war, famine etc.

I'd like to get a good answer from that point, not just 'the Lord moves in mysterious ways' which is the biggest kop out ever.

PDN · 22-08-2008 06:23PM

Gaviscon wrote: »

I taught I'd quote you there because Christian posters here focused on the words 'delusional' and 'sick' while totally avoiding (very valid) the question you posted.
I totally agree that God seems a bit daft going out of his way to help some guy bump into his neighbour in a petrol station while overlooking war, famine etc.

I'd like to get a good answer from that point, not just 'the Lord moves in mysterious ways' which is the biggest kop out ever.

I think that we need to be very careful about relying on our assessments as to what is important or not. For example, in 1931 an English visitor to New York stupidly looked the wrong way when he was crossing the road (expecting the traffic to drive on the left!) and was struck by a car. He came within an inch of death but survived. He ascribed his survival to divine providence. On the face of it that would seem open to the criticisms you outline above. After all, of what significance was the life or death of an overweight English tourist - especially with contrasted with other more important issues of that year (Gandhi arrested, the Hawkes Bay earthquake, the Mangua earthquake, The Castellemmarese mafia War, the drowning of 450 in a riverboat disaster on the River Loire, the death of up to 4 million in the Huang He floods, the Belize hurricane killing 1500)?

Yet it has been argued by historians that Winston's Churchill's survival of that New York traffic accident, and his 'delusional' ascribing of it to Providence, gave him the stubborn confidence to persist in his opposition to Nazism and, ultimately, to play a pivotal role in preventing the entire world falling under the domination of genocidal dictators.

The Christian's position is that God has a plan for each of us. We do not understand or realise the significance of that plan, but we are all important in God's purposes. What appears trivial or not worth bothering about may have untold consequences.

Splendour · 22-08-2008 06:36PM

PDN wrote: »

Maybe I am just an extraordinarily lucky individual who keeps experiencing wacky coincidences that correlate with what I pray for. If so, then I've certainly not lost out by the experience. My Christian faith has given me a wonderful life, a marriage that gets better and better after 22 years, a wonderful daughter, and a job that I love so much that I look foward to starting work every day. It's also given me some of the best and most loyal wonderful friends that any man could ever wish for.

Hi PDN, I obviously don't think you are deluded, and realise God has worked in your life.
However, I also believe that plenty of people can turn their lives around without God and equally there are plenty of people who despite being believers continue to suffer much. I hate to hear the 'God can turn your life around' sales pitch as most people assume it means on a physical level. Wheras God can and does work this way, it is more the exception than the rule.

As Paul says in 1 Corinthians:

If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

BTW-plenty of people who are involved in AA have recovered from this disease and are not believers.

Sorry if I'm appear to be arguing on the Athiest side-am just a realist is all...

Schuhart · 22-08-2008 06:51PM

Splendour wrote: »

BTW-plenty of people who are involved in AA have recovered from this disease and are not believers.

Sorry if I'm appear to be arguing on the Athiest side-am just a realist is all...

Indeed, and to hopefully balance up your realism, can I say from my side that I feel PDN and Jimi are right to raise the simple fact that concepts like hope and morality, in the sense that they mean them, are not present in an atheist conception of life. I think non-believers have to give clearly answers to that kind of point, so that we're not wasting each others time with the same arguments that never meet in the middle.

I've a feeling that it may simply be a truth that people who find religion works well in their lives will not find an alternative within atheism for the features that make faith a positive experience. So there's really no point in telling PDN he could find a solution outside Christianity. He probably can't and, if he holds Christianity to be true, why should he?

The Mad Hatter · 22-08-2008 07:48PM

PDN wrote: »

That is untestable in civilizations as there has never been a truly atheist civilization or a truly Christian civilization. Human nature is pretty destructive and abusive, so it easy to produce examples of people who behaved badly while professing atheism, Buddhism, Christianity etc.

Ah, the ABCs of religion.

However, here is a challenge.

Evidence galore exists in the lives of those who were violent or abusive people whiole rejecting the concept of God, yet dramatically changed for the better after their conversion to Christianity. I was one such person.

How many examples can you find of people who were violent and abusive devout Christians yet changed dramatically for the better after they converted to atheism? I would be genuinely interested in hearing of any such testimonies to the power of atheism.

I don't think atheism has any power...I'd say it's improved the quality of life for a few people, though. I can't say personally that I've become a better person since I gave up Catholicism - though I'm certainly no worse. (I've never been violent or abusive. It's against my nature.)

You're better off viewing it something like The Matrix, though. For those who believe they've found the real world, they'd rather live in that, no matter how much less pleasant it is.

Galvasean · 22-08-2008 08:00PM

PDN wrote: »

I think that we need to be very careful about relying on our assessments as to what is important or not. For example, in 1931 an English visitor to New York stupidly looked the wrong way when he was crossing the road (expecting the traffic to drive on the left!) and was struck by a car. He came within an inch of death but survived. He ascribed his survival to divine providence. On the face of it that would seem open to the criticisms you outline above. After all, of what significance was the life or death of an overweight English tourist - especially with contrasted with other more important issues of that year (Gandhi arrested, the Hawkes Bay earthquake, the Mangua earthquake, The Castellemmarese mafia War, the drowning of 450 in a riverboat disaster on the River Loire, the death of up to 4 million in the Huang He floods, the Belize hurricane killing 1500)?

Yet it has been argued by historians that Winston's Churchill's survival of that New York traffic accident, and his 'delusional' ascribing of it to Providence, gave him the stubborn confidence to persist in his opposition to Nazism and, ultimately, to play a pivotal role in preventing the entire world falling under the domination of genocidal dictators.

Interesting. Sounds a bit like chaos theory. Small changes = big implications. (Good example BTW)

PDN wrote: »

The Christian's position is that God has a plan for each of us. We do not understand or realise the significance of that plan, but we are all important in God's purposes. What appears trivial or not worth bothering about may have untold consequences.

I still find it hard to accept that an all loving God actually planned for millions to die each year of hunger, horrible diseases etc. Although he could be indirectly influencing someone to do something about it, it just seems like taking teh long way round. The people left dying helplessly while waiting for the plan to take action appear to have gotten the wrong end of the stick.

wolfsbane · 22-08-2008 08:18PM

vibe666 wrote: »

well done wolfsbane, that is absolutely priceless.

any civilised human being would be appalled at the thought of a child being abused, but many more time so by the thought that their abuser did it to punish even a very close relative.

what you seem to be saying is that your god punishes babies and children to show them how evil men can be because he sees them as sinners because of something that supposedly happened thousands of years ago to their most distant ancestor?

that's great, congratulations on a sterling choice for a deity. :rolleyes:

It is indisputable that we all suffer and die - babies, children, and adults. Sometimes that is because of our particular sins, in which case babies and children would not be involved. But we all are involved in being sinners by nature, and so inherit Adam's punishment. It is not like I am guilty of stealing a sheep because my great great grandfather stole one. Adam's nature is our nature, his fallen heart is ours - so too his punishment. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners.

If you can be sure we are not sinners, then you can be sure the God I speak of is not real. You will have to explain man's character in materialistic terms, and explain why it is wrong to murder, rape, oppress, etc.

Galvasean · 22-08-2008 08:27PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

It is indisputable that we all suffer and die - babies, children, and adults. Sometimes that is because of our particular sins, in which case babies and children would not be involved. But we all are involved in being sinners by nature, and so inherit Adam's punishment.

Hardly gives them a chance to prove themselves now does it. If that's the case why not just punish everyone for their nature?

The Mad Hatter · 22-08-2008 08:33PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

It is indisputable that we all suffer and die - babies, children, and adults. Sometimes that is because of our particular sins, in which case babies and children would not be involved. But we all are involved in being sinners by nature, and so inherit Adam's punishment. It is not like I am guilty of stealing a sheep because my great great grandfather stole one. Adam's nature is our nature, his fallen heart is ours - so too his punishment. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners.

If you can be sure we are not sinners, then you can be sure the God I speak of is not real. You will have to explain man's character in materialistic terms, and explain why it is wrong to murder, rape, oppress, etc.

Why materialistic?

What are the odds?

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