What are the odds?

PDN

Two weeks ago I was taking a few days break in Houston, Texas with my family. We had to be at a conference in San Antonio on the Monday - so we decided to drive across a couple of days early, on the Saturday. I was dealing with some difficult work situations and was praying, "God, I really need you to do something special to show me that you are in control and work things together for good."

Meanwhile, my next door neighbour has been preaching in churches in Florida for the last 2 months. He was also going to the same Conference in San Antonio and, unbeknown to me, also decided to get there a bit early. So on Thursday he started driving from Miami to San Antonio. Unfortunately he had no directions as to how to find the Conference venue - so as he made his way through the Florida Panhandle, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana etc. he prayed for God to help him find directions.

About 40 miles out of Houston I realised that we were low on gas so, on the spur of the moment, I swung into a beat-up old gas station beside the Interstate. My wife was asking, "What on earth are you doing?" as we always call at nice clean gas stations with decent rest rooms etc. I answered, "I don't know. It just seemed like the right thing to do."

As I got out of my car to pump gas I heard a voice saying, "No! I don't bellieve it!" There, on the other side of the same gas pump, was my next door neighbour. At first it took a while to register with me that it was him since I didn't recognise the car he had borrowed for the week.

I was able to give him directions to the Conference venue in San Antonio (I had assumed he would have flown there) and I got my reassurance that God was in control.

For the remainder of the trip to San Antonio (another three hours) I just kept laughing at this 'coincidence' and wondered what are the odds against us both being at the very same gas pump at the same location at the same time.

Oh, and by the way, God sorted out those work problems just fine.

Schuhart

Well how about this for a coincidence. On the day that you decided to tell us about your coincidence, I had a rather more secular coincidence which might tell us something about how coincidences are just coincidences.

I’ve been trying to find a minute off work this week so I could call into the doc to get results of a test (just cholesterol, nothing exciting). Finally, I managed it this morning, nipping in when I’d a window for a late morning.

Now, in the background this (for me) really tasty opportunity has come up that I’ll be doing an interview for next week. I really want this thing, it’s exactly where I want to be right now and I’m really getting stale where I am as I’ve just being doing it for too long so its really important to me to get this thing.

So I’m heading into to work late, when I run in to an old friend I used to work with. Guess what, he’s skiving off too on a personal errand but the two of us manage to pass the same point at the same time. Like, neither of us should be there. We should both be in work at that moment. What’s the chance of that?

But it gets better. We stop for a chat – we haven’t seen each other for a long time. And, unprompted, he mentions how he was interviewed for the tasty opportunity I want, got it and turned it down. I told him I was going for it next week, and he was able to give me much useful intelligence. And he’s a real stand up guy, so you can trust what he says.

So I’m heading in next week feeling confident, better prepared than I could hope to be. All because of an incredible coincidence.

I put it down to sun spot activity.

Flamed Diving

I have heard similar mad stories like that. For example, a friend had been complaining of living next to this horrible neighbour who she didnt get on with. So when her holidays came she was glad to get a break from her and went to Australia. She travelled out to Ayers Rock to catch the sunset and while gazing at how beautiful this was she turned to see her neighbour standing right next to her. They didnt even say hello to one another, they just pretended not to notice and moved on.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

"God, I really need you to do something special to show me that you are in control and work things together for good." [...] I just kept laughing at this 'coincidence' and wondered what are the odds against us both being at the very same gas pump at the same location at the same time.

These kind of things happen all the time. In fact, the world would be an odd place indeed if they never happened. My own favorite was an ex- of mine who was hitchhiking in Tasmania and got a lift from a guy I used to work with in a homeless shelter in Dublin. Then there was the two guys from my class in uni who met in Times Square shortly after graduation; turned out they'd both been on the same flight from Dublin to NY too.

Anyhow, the brain has evolved a remarkable talent for spotting patterns, even to the extent of inferring them when they're not there.

It's all rather reminiscent of Skinner's Pigeons.

iUseVi

How likely is it that someone wins the lottery? Not at all. And yet someone always does.

Apologies for the off-the-scale level of cynicism , but I'm sure you get my point. Unlikely things happen all the time. As someone said, it would be strange if they didn't happen, as that would contrary to probability. Would would be strange would be if you met your neighbour in a foreign country every day of the week, or even once a week.

Schuhart

robindch wrote: »

These kind of things happen all the time.

Indeed, and I just noticed an element in the story that makes it seem even less coincidental than my chance meeting yesterday. Maybe other folk already noticed that bit

PDN wrote: »

Meanwhile, my next door neighbour has been preaching in churches in Florida for the last 2 months. He was also going to the same Conference in San Antonio .....

That makes me wonder. PDN's next door neighbour seems to be in exactly the same business as himself. Coincidence? That's practically an X File.

Apologies on raining on over PDN's story. But I've a feeling God got atheists posting here to stop ridiculous soppy claims being made in His name.

PDN

Schuhart wrote: »

Indeed, and I just noticed an element in the story that makes it seem even less coincidental than my chance meeting yesterday. Maybe other folk already noticed that bitThat makes me wonder. PDN's next door neighbour seems to be in exactly the same business as himself. Coincidence? That's practically an X File.

That would hardly be a coincidence since my next door neighbour is a friend and I helped him find his house.

As for another poster's reference to the lottery - I really should start doing the lottery since these kind of things happen to me quite frequently. Coincidentally they also happen when I'm praying.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

Coincidentally they also happen when I'm praying.

They also happen when you aren't praying, you just register them more when you are.

A large part in things like this isn't that they happen but how we register them and remember them. Humans are pattern matchers, we assign different often unconnected things significance if they happen around the same time. I would imagine there are plenty of times you pray and something like this doesn't happen, but that doesn't register with you. There are plenty of times funny conicendences happen when you aren't praying, they don't register that much. Put the two events together it registers and you assign significance to the event.

Schuhart

PDN wrote: »

I really should start doing the lottery since these kind of things happen to me quite frequently.

But its not a coincidence. Its just that tou and your next door neighbour seemed to be joined at the hip. That's quite a different concept.

More seriously, how is what you're suggesting here substantially different to the spiritualism you object to here?

PDN

Schuhart wrote: »

More seriously, how is what you're suggesting here substantially different to the spiritualism you object to here?

Spiritualism involves trying to communicate with dead people. It is bracketed in Scripture with witchcraft and other occultic activities that are incompatible with Christianity.

Prayer involves communicating with the Living God. It is an act of faith that is commanded in Scripture and is an essential part of Christianity.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

As for another poster's reference to the lottery - I really should start doing the lottery since these kind of things happen to me quite frequently. Coincidentally they also happen when I'm praying.

Well, here's a useful test!

PDN -- could you pray please and let me know what numbers I should pick? With this post, I hereby guarantee to pay 90% of any winnings to the central Dublin homeless shelter in central Dublin for whom I used to work some years ago.

I await your suggestions with interest. Shall we aim for wednesday's draw?

philologos

robindch wrote: »

Well, here's a useful test!

PDN -- could you pray please and let me know what numbers I should pick? With this post, I hereby guarantee to pay 90% of any winnings to the central Dublin homeless shelter in central Dublin for whom I used to work some years ago.

I await your suggestions with interest. Shall we aim for wednesday's draw?

That would be putting the Lord your God to the test. (Matthew 4)

Dave147

So obviously, God knew your friend was going to be at a certain gas pump at a certain time, so he came to you and told you to go there so you could give him directions.. d'uh! It's not a coincidence, it's all God's work! *SIGH* this IS a coincidence, it's cool and all but you don't need to say it's 'gods' work! No offence, but I don't like when people pick and choose 'Gods' influence over our lives..

I am not trolling, I think it is really great that you met a friend like this, honestly.. but do you have to relate it to your faith? Why not just let it be a nice pleasant coincidence and leave it at that. Apologies for the sarcasm in the first paragraph also.. I get cranky :P

brianthebard

I didn't think you were supposed to test god?

robindch

Jakkass wrote: »

That would be putting the Lord your God to the test. (Matthew 4)

Well, it's not me putting the lord my god to the test, since I don't believe there's a lord there to test, and in the event he is there, I certainly don't claim him to be "my god". And neither am I testing the god either, instead, I'm testing what PDN says. Quite a different thing!

He's quite clear that happy coincidences happen "quite frequently" when he prays, so this is a very easy way for him to make a real change to the lives of the poor and the dispossessed in Dublin. The Euromillions jackpot currently stands at €54 million and 90% of that is €48m which, at a stroke, would sort out the shelter's financial problems as well as permit a complete redevelopment and expansion.

PDN?

Schuhart

PDN wrote: »

Spiritualism involves trying to communicate with dead people. It is bracketed in Scripture with witchcraft and other occultic activities that are incompatible with Christianity.

Prayer involves communicating with the Living God. It is an act of faith that is commanded in Scripture and is an essential part of Christianity.

I can appreciate that within Christianity there will be discussions as to what exactly the right message is, within the bounds set by what we believe to constitute the record of that message.

But I take it that, before you get there, you understand that a fairly fundamental issue is whether God will actually reach in and interfere in the world on an ongoing basis at the request of a dedicated follower – in a situation where we are maintaining that he intervened directly to give the final and authoritative message quite some time ago, and left without a promise of a return before the day of judgement.

Now, if you are maintaining (and you seem to be) that God will answer the call of a sincere believer, then you would seem to be taking substantially the same position as a Catholic who believes a Novena will bring them some benefit. It seems inconsequential whether or not God would allow a believer to demonstrate sincere faith by venerating the personality God adopted on earth, or the mother of that personality or, indeed, the spirit of a human who had lived an exemplary life by the standard of the faith.

And I’m sure you’ll appreciate that there would be theists out there would who argue that directing prayers to Jesus is just as much a mistake as addressing prayers to his mother.

Now, I totally understand that the discussion you are having in that other thread has a valid meaning for people who are starting from the position of accepting Christianity. But I take it you understand that, to people outside of that circle, you are all essentially saying the same thing. If you say that God intervenes in individual cases at the request of a sincere follower, the precise outlets through which he accepts valid requests requires much less explanation that the principle itself.

Dog Fan

I wonder how much of PDN's experience is part of being aware of the presence of God in our lives. Very often we want the whistles and bells, a Great Big Knowledge of Presence.

Last week the first reading for mass was 1 Kings 19:9. 11-13
Elijah went into the cave and was told to stand before the Lord. So, the Lord wasn't in the mighty wind, or the earthquake, but in a gentle breeze.

Flamed Diving

Jakkass wrote: »

That would be putting the Lord your God to the test. (Matthew 4)

How convenient.

Splendour

PDN wrote: »

Two weeks ago I was taking a few days break in Houston, Texas with my family. We had to be at a conference in San Antonio on the Monday - so we decided to drive across a couple of days early, on the Saturday. I was dealing with some difficult work situations and was praying, "God, I really need you to do something special to show me that you are in control and work things together for good."

Meanwhile, my next door neighbour has been preaching in churches in Florida for the last 2 months. He was also going to the same Conference in San Antonio and, unbeknown to me, also decided to get there a bit early. So on Thursday he started driving from Miami to San Antonio. Unfortunately he had no directions as to how to find the Conference venue - so as he made his way through the Florida Panhandle, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana etc. he prayed for God to help him find directions.

About 40 miles out of Houston I realised that we were low on gas so, on the spur of the moment, I swung into a beat-up old gas station beside the Interstate. My wife was asking, "What on earth are you doing?" as we always call at nice clean gas stations with decent rest rooms etc. I answered, "I don't know. It just seemed like the right thing to do."

As I got out of my car to pump gas I heard a voice saying, "No! I don't bellieve it!" There, on the other side of the same gas pump, was my next door neighbour. At first it took a while to register with me that it was him since I didn't recognise the car he had borrowed for the week.

I was able to give him directions to the Conference venue in San Antonio (I had assumed he would have flown there) and I got my reassurance that God was in control.

For the remainder of the trip to San Antonio (another three hours) I just kept laughing at this 'coincidence' and wondered what are the odds against us both being at the very same gas pump at the same location at the same time.

Oh, and by the way, God sorted out those work problems just fine.

Hi PDN,

whilst I'm glad your work problems got sorted, I wonder why God would bring you and your neighbour together for what seems a trivial problem and then not intervene in other believers bigger problems?

I believe God is with us in all things but when I hear of Christians putting these kind of incidents down to God and I'm praying for years about my life which just seems to be getting more and more difficult,I suppose I get a bit mad at God and wonder 'how come He's not working for good in my life and yet is concerned over 'small' events of others?'

Sorry alot going on-rant over!

PDN

robindch wrote: »

Well, here's a useful test!

PDN -- could you pray please and let me know what numbers I should pick? With this post, I hereby guarantee to pay 90% of any winnings to the central Dublin homeless shelter in central Dublin for whom I used to work some years ago.

I await your suggestions with interest. Shall we aim for wednesday's draw?

If you enjoy wasting money then you might as well pick lottery numbers at random rather than getting them from me.

If I had enough of a direct line to God to get the lotto numbers from Him then I assure you that I would choose a charity for myself. Neither would I pay you 10% for doing nothing. Who do you think you are - a TV evangelist?

Flamed Diving

Splendour wrote: »

Hi PDN,

whilst I'm glad your work problems got sorted, I wonder why God would bring you and your neighbour together for what seems a trivial problem and then not intervene in other believers bigger problems?

I believe God is with us in all things but when I hear of Christians putting these kind of incidents down to God and I'm praying for years about my life which just seems to be getting more and more difficult,I suppose I get a bit mad at God and wonder 'how come He's not working for good in my life and yet is concerned over 'small' events of others?'

Sorry alot going on-rant over!

I'll field this one:

'God works in mysterious ways'

vibe666

i love that religious types always seem to find a way to put coincidence down to god 'working in mysterious ways' and that he always seems to have time to do mundane things like give his faithful directions etc. But doesn't seem to be bothered about stopping kids being abused or babies dying horribly all over the world. But then there's always an excuse for why he lets these things happen. Next time he stops to give you directions why don't you ask him?

wolfsbane

Schuhart said:

But I take it that, before you get there, you understand that a fairly fundamental issue is whether God will actually reach in and interfere in the world on an ongoing basis at the request of a dedicated follower

Let me butt in with a few comments, please. Yes, that God does such is accepted by historic Christianity. Not that He is obliged to say Yes to any particular request.

– in a situation where we are maintaining that he intervened directly to give the final and authoritative message quite some time ago, and left without a promise of a return before the day of judgement.

Before the day of judgement refers to His bodily presence, not to His presence by the Holy spirit, nor to His intervention in the spiritual and material world. God in fact works all things for the good of those who love Him - every event, good or bad, only furthers His good purpose for us:
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

An unbreakable chain of blessing.

Now, if you are maintaining (and you seem to be) that God will answer the call of a sincere believer, then you would seem to be taking substantially the same position as a Catholic who believes a Novena will bring them some benefit.

It is the same position, as it is indeed for the Muslim praying to Allah. But one is acceptable to God, the others are praying to false gods or to people who cannot answer them.

It seems inconsequential whether or not God would allow a believer to demonstrate sincere faith by venerating the personality God adopted on earth, or the mother of that personality or, indeed, the spirit of a human who had lived an exemplary life by the standard of the faith.

Faith must be in God for it to be accepted by Him. Faith in a fellowman, or in a false god is an offence to the One True God.

And I’m sure you’ll appreciate that there would be theists out there would who argue that directing prayers to Jesus is just as much a mistake as addressing prayers to his mother.

Certainly. The question is, Are they right in so thinking? Biblical Christianity says not.

Now, I totally understand that the discussion you are having in that other thread has a valid meaning for people who are starting from the position of accepting Christianity. But I take it you understand that, to people outside of that circle, you are all essentially saying the same thing. If you say that God intervenes in individual cases at the request of a sincere follower, the precise outlets through which he accepts valid requests requires much less explanation that the principle itself.

We can all claim to have our prayers answered, but that does not make it so. The principle is not asking in faith, but asking in faith in the true God. He is not going to regard faith in demons the same as faith in Himself. Here's an example of sincere prayer offered to different God/gods:
1 Kings 18:22 Then Elijah said to the people, “I alone am left a prophet of the LORD; but Baal’s prophets are four hundred and fifty men. 23 Therefore let them give us two bulls; and let them choose one bull for themselves, cut it in pieces, and lay it on the wood, but put no fire under it; and I will prepare the other bull, and lay it on the wood, but put no fire under it. 24 Then you call on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD; and the God who answers by fire, He is God.”
So all the people answered and said, “It is well spoken.”
25 Now Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one bull for yourselves and prepare it first, for you are many; and call on the name of your god, but put no fire under it.”
26 So they took the bull which was given them, and they prepared it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even till noon, saying, “O Baal, hear us!” But there was no voice; no one answered. Then they leaped about the altar which they had made.
27 And so it was, at noon, that Elijah mocked them and said, “Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is meditating, or he is busy, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28 So they cried aloud, and cut themselves, as was their custom, with knives and lances, until the blood gushed out on them. 29 And when midday was past, they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice. But there was no voice; no one answered, no one paid attention. 30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come near to me.” So all the people came near to him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down. 31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, “Israel shall be your name.” 32 Then with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD; and he made a trench around the altar large enough to hold two seahs of seed. 33 And he put the wood in order, cut the bull in pieces, and laid it on the wood, and said, “Fill four waterpots with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice and on the wood.” 34 Then he said, “Do it a second time,” and they did it a second time; and he said, “Do it a third time,” and they did it a third time. 35 So the water ran all around the altar; and he also filled the trench with water.
36 And it came to pass, at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near and said, “LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that You are God in Israel and I am Your servant, and that I have done all these things at Your word. 37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that You are the LORD God, and that You have turned their hearts back to You again.”
38 Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood and the stones and the dust, and it licked up the water that was in the trench. 39 Now when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, “The LORD, He is God! The LORD, He is God!”

wolfsbane

vibe666 wrote: »

i love that religious types always seem to find a way to put coincidence down to god 'working in mysterious ways' and that he always seems to have time to do mundane things like give his faithful directions etc. But doesn't seem to be bothered about stopping kids being abused or babies dying horribly all over the world. But then there's always an excuse for why he lets these things happen. Next time he stops to give you directions why don't you ask him?

Every thing that troubles His people is a concern to Him. Nothing is too small to bring to my heavenly Father. But why does He not prevent all evil happening to me, and to the world in general? Well, for me it is so I learn to depend on Him, not on happy circumstances. Trials are part of His discipline for me, to build me up in my faith.

For the world, suffering is a part of the consequences of mankind's original Fall into sin.

But for some of them it is also a preparation of their hearts for the gospel - their sufferings will cause them to abandon hope in themselves and in material happiness, and to look to their Maker for salvation.

Splendour

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I'll field this one:

'God works in mysterious ways'

Thank you Flamed Diving for your unbiblical quote, though I believe God does work in mysterious ways. Take St. Paul for example getting on with the business of killing Christians,and God called him and totally turned his life around. Paul had no interest whatsoever in seeking God, but God had other plans for him...

I know God is with me, and other believers, at all times and the crux of it all is to seek Him in all situations and somehow God has kept me sane through all my problems so this is my solace for this life...

Schuhart

wolfsbane wrote: »

Let me butt in with a few comments, please.

Most welcome, I've always found this forum to be a good place to see the Christian message explored.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes, that God does such is accepted by historic Christianity. Not that He is obliged to say Yes to any particular request.

That much is fine, and would be pretty much what I was told when being brought up as a Catholic.

wolfsbane wrote: »

God in fact works all things for the good of those who love Him - every event, good or bad, only furthers His good purpose for us

So presumably this includes, as you say, bad events as well as good. Hence, PDN's positive experience is not more of a product of his prayerful life than Splendour's present difficulties. So 'coincidence' has nothing to do with it.

wolfsbane wrote: »

We can all claim to have our prayers answered, but that does not make it so. The principle is not asking in faith, but asking in faith in the true God. He is not going to regard faith in demons the same as faith in Himself.

This strikes me as the crux of the matter. Surely all kinds of people will claim their faith was answered. Buddhists will even claim that, without a god, karma causes their good actions to be rewarded. Hence, if a variety of people with incompatable beliefs can claim their prayers, or equivalent to prayers, were answered, coincidence offers no proof of the validity of any one religion.

It would strike me that the only way of refuting this is to assert that all people who do not subscribe to your version of Christianity - including Catholics, Muslims and Buddhists - are not reliable witnesses to the events they report. Events which are essentially identical to PDN's story.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

If I had enough of a direct line to God to get the lotto numbers from Him then I assure you that I would choose a charity for myself.

But you said up above that enough of these coincidences happen when you pray that you felt that should do the lotto. Are you now changing what you said to mean that these coincidences don't actually happen?

PDN wrote: »

Neither would I pay you 10% for doing nothing.

Why -- you don't like tithing?

Flamed Diving

Splendour wrote: »

Thank you Flamed Diving for your unbiblical quote, though I believe God does work in mysterious ways. Take St. Paul for example getting on with the business of killing Christians,and God called him and totally turned his life around. Paul had no interest whatsoever in seeking God, but God had other plans for him...

Groovy.

PDN

robindch wrote: »

But you said up above that enough of these coincidences happen when you pray that you felt that should do the lotto. Are you now changing what you said to mean that these coincidences don't actually happen?Why -- you don't like tithing?

It must be a dreadful thing to lack a sense of humour.

In the OP I described how I had received encouragement from an incident that involved either a massive coincidence or an answer to prayer, depending on one's viewpoint. I had thought that might prove of encouragement to other Christians on the board. I guess I was being naive and should have realised that there are some atheists who find one Christian encouraging another in the area of prayer to be so threatening to their worldview that they are compelled to desperately try to disprove any connection with God.

Therefore we get all the posts about coincidences happening all the time and how my brain plays tricks on me so as to invest such things with significance. Some poster even mentioned that such a coincidence happens against all the odds every week when someone wins the lottery.

Now, for reasons of social justice (not just on Christian or biblical grounds) I am opposed to the entire idea of the lottery. I believe it to be a cleverly disguised tax on the poor to fund social projects in the name of 'charity' that should really be paid for by increased taxes on the wealthy. Therefore I do not play the lottery. However, my response to the lottery comment in this thread was to jokingly suggest that I should start playing the lottery since such massive coincidences have happened to me not just once, but on a number of occasions in my life. They also seem to happen when I pray.

I think, Robin, that it was clear that I was cracking a joke rather than making an intentional decision to start breaking my 30 year habit of abstension from gambling. I think you are intelligent enough to recognise that it was a joke.

Incidentally, as a result of the incident in the OP I was emboldened to participate in discussions at the Conference and to ensure that funds exceeding the jackpot in the Irish lottery will be sent every month to projects that alleviate poverty in the third world.

nozzferrahhtoo

Actually considering the two of you were heading to the same place for the same time the chances of meeting along the way are large.

Couple this with the fact that the closer you get the higher the probability that you will run out of petrol, therefore making it even more likely again that you will meet.

Also as the circle around the destination point gets smaller the number of choices of petrol station will also reduce quickly. The closer you get therefore the divisor of the probability equation will also get smaller thus increasing the chances.

All in all not that shocking, especially when you consider all the things you have gone to in your life where you DIDNT meet someone on the way. Its just a subjective choice to be amazed by the event where it DID happen when actually its a lot more mathematically suprising that we should get to so many events in our life without seeing at least one person until we get there. There are explanations for this though like "Keep your eyes on the road"!

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote: »

Two weeks ago I was taking a few days break in Houston, Texas with my family. We had to be at a conference in San Antonio on the Monday - so we decided to drive across a couple of days early, on the Saturday. I was dealing with some difficult work situations and was praying, "God, I really need you to do something special to show me that you are in control and work things together for good."

Meanwhile, my next door neighbour has been preaching in churches in Florida for the last 2 months. He was also going to the same Conference in San Antonio and, unbeknown to me, also decided to get there a bit early. So on Thursday he started driving from Miami to San Antonio. Unfortunately he had no directions as to how to find the Conference venue - so as he made his way through the Florida Panhandle, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana etc. he prayed for God to help him find directions.

About 40 miles out of Houston I realised that we were low on gas so, on the spur of the moment, I swung into a beat-up old gas station beside the Interstate. My wife was asking, "What on earth are you doing?" as we always call at nice clean gas stations with decent rest rooms etc. I answered, "I don't know. It just seemed like the right thing to do."

As I got out of my car to pump gas I heard a voice saying, "No! I don't bellieve it!" There, on the other side of the same gas pump, was my next door neighbour. At first it took a while to register with me that it was him since I didn't recognise the car he had borrowed for the week.

I was able to give him directions to the Conference venue in San Antonio (I had assumed he would have flown there) and I got my reassurance that God was in control.

For the remainder of the trip to San Antonio (another three hours) I just kept laughing at this 'coincidence' and wondered what are the odds against us both being at the very same gas pump at the same location at the same time.

Oh, and by the way, God sorted out those work problems just fine.

Difficult to say in a mathematical sense what the probability would be. But the odds I'd give you if I was bookie:
1. Odds of you both being at that conference: 6 / 1
2. Odds of you both going a bit early: 8 / 1
3. I'd say he'd have a rough idea where the place was so I am not giving odds on that.
4. I would imagine there were about 100 gas stations along your route you could have pickes. So odds of you both picked the same one and both leaving early about 800 / 1.
5. The odds of you both being there at the same time. Well let's say you spend 10 minutes in the gas station and realistically people go to gas stations anytime between 8.00 am and 10 pm. so that would mean:
14 * 6* 800/1 chance of you both being there at the same time.
67,200 / 1.

So yes quite very long odds. However, as other posters have said, things like this happen all the time. You could have also just stopped at that garage station not met your friend, but met another friend who needed something else. Or you could have managed to see some guys rob someone's car and prove to be an witness to it all so that the owner ends up getting his car back. You could then say what were the chances for that, it must be God? and proceed to come up with some cause / effect argument and thank God for it happening.

The problem with cause / effect arguments is that they are, arguably the hardest arguments to get right. That's why we have the scientific method.

PDN

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Actually considering the two of you were heading to the same place for the same time the chances of meeting along the way are large.

Couple this with the fact that the closer you get the higher the probability that you will run out of petrol, therefore making it even more likely again that you will meet.

Also as the circle around the destination point gets smaller the number of choices of petrol station will also reduce quickly. The closer you get therefore the divisor of the probability equation will also get smaller thus increasing the chances.

All in all not that shocking, especially when you consider all the things you have gone to in your life where you DIDNT meet someone on the way. Its just a subjective choice to be amazed by the event where it DID happen when actually its a lot more mathematically suprising that we should get to so many events in our life without seeing at least one person until we get there. There are explanations for this though like "Keep your eyes on the road"!

If that is so then should I take it as a sign from God that this has never happened to me before? I have filled up my car hundreds, probably thousands, of times in the dozen or so petrol stations in my home town where I know hundreds of people - yet I have never pulled in beside a pump to find someone I know also pumping petrol from the very same pump at the very same time!

Yet you want to tell me that, out of the hundreds of gas stations between Houston and San Antonio that it was quite likely that I should bump into my next door neighbour at the precise time that he was filling up at one of the thousands of gas stations between Palm Beach, Florida and San Antonio, Texas?

Be careful bending over backwards so far - you might hurt yourself!

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

If that is so then should I take it as a sign from God that this has never happened to me before? I have filled up my car hundreds, probably thousands, of times in the dozen or so petrol stations in my home town where I know hundreds of people - yet I have never pulled in beside a pump to find someone I know also pumping petrol from the very same pump at the very same time!

Yet you want to tell me that, out of the hundreds of gas stations between Houston and San Antonio that it was quite likely that I should bump into my next door neighbour at the precise time that he was filling up at one of the thousands of gas stations between Palm Beach, Florida and San Antonio, Texas?

Be careful bending over backwards so far - you might hurt yourself!

TBH PDN, I've seen programmes about the 10 plagues being conincidences. Some toxin got into the nile, which had a red hue to it. Frogs left the nile because of the toxin. the fish in the nile died, causing flies etc to multiply at an alarming rate. Toxin enters food chain, animals die. Then there was an eclipse etc.
The atheist response is to be expected. Remember that they believe life is a series of remarkable coincidences all happening.

Personally, I can't say if this was God acting. I'm always skeptical about these things, but I'm glad it worked out, and that it gave encouragement. The most convincing part of the story was this line IMO:

PDN wrote:

About 40 miles out of Houston I realised that we were low on gas so, on the spur of the moment, I swung into a beat-up old gas station beside the Interstate. My wife was asking, "What on earth are you doing?" as we always call at nice clean gas stations with decent rest rooms etc. I answered, "I don't know. It just seemed like the right thing to do."

It conveyed an instinct. Presumably you had enough Gas to wait until you got to a plush station, but you acted against this Norm out of an instinct that felt right.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

Yet you want to tell me that, out of the hundreds of gas stations between Houston and San Antonio that it was quite likely that I should bump into my next door neighbour at the precise time that he was filling up at one of the thousands of gas stations between Palm Beach, Florida and San Antonio, Texas?

Yes.

Though your evolved brain is fighting hard not to accept that, for some good survival reasons.

The subject of coincidence and the difference between how humans perceive the odds of something and what the odds actually are is a fascinating but largely misunderstood topic.

The classic example of this is the birthday problem. What are the odds that a group of people in a room share the same birthday. While most people say the odds are small for a small group it turns out that you only need 24 people in a room for the odds that a pair of them share a birth to be greater than the odds that none of them share a birthday. This would seem counter intuitive to most people because they think that it is 1 to 365 that someone would share a birthday.

I haven't read it but a book that was recommended to me is "Beyond Conincidence", reviewed here

There are various webpages with deal with the subject, such as this one

http://pass.maths.org.uk/issue4/grimmett/

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

The atheist response is to be expected. Remember that they believe life is a series of remarkable coincidences all happening.

Not that remarkable since these types of events happen quite a lot.

For example, poison gas released due to volcanic activity can and often does turn water a thick red colour, and unfortunately tends to kill people in their sleep due to carbon monoxide. This also tends to kill children faster than adults. There is a very sad story of a village in Africa where the lake went dark read and the next day the adults woke up to find all the children in the village (bar a few lucky ones) had died in their sleep.

It is easy to see how in a time before science and understanding of natural events an event like this could be considered to be a supernatural event and become wrapped up in the myths and legends of a people and given a supernatural explanation by the religious rulers of the day.

Tim Robbins

Wicknight wrote: »

Not that remarkable since these types of events happen quite a lot.

For example, poison gas released due to volcanic activity can and often does turn water a thick red colour, and unfortunately tends to kill people in their sleep due to carbon monoxide. This also tends to kill children faster than adults. There is a very sad story of a village in Africa where the lake went dark read and the next day the adults woke up to find all the children in the village (bar a few lucky ones) had died in their sleep.

It is easy to see how in a time before science and understanding of natural events an event like this could be considered to be a supernatural event and become wrapped up in the myths and legends of a people and given a supernatural explanation by the religious rulers of the day.

They're completly different types of events.

Zombrex

Tim Robbins wrote: »

They're completly different types of events.

I'm not following, what are completely different from what?

Tim Robbins

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm not following, what are completely different from what?

1. PDN's involved him explictly praying.
2. PDN's had a positive outcome.
3. PDN's was trying to deduce a positive cause / effect from his relationship with God.
4. Your story had a scientific explanation, PDN's only has a co-incidence explanation. It's nothing to do with infection, disease etc.
5. PDN's involves a number of distinct separate variables all fitting into place at the same time:
- both of them going to the same conference
- both of them going to the same petrol station

The only thing in common is that in both cases, you don't accept a possible explanation of God.

Zombrex

Tim Robbins wrote: »

1. PDN's involved him explictly praying.
2. PDN's had a positive outcome.
3. PDN's was trying to deduce a positive cause / effect from his relationship with God.
4. Your story had a scientific explanation, PDN's only has a co-incidence explanation. It's nothing to do with infection, disease etc.
5. PDN's involves a number of distinct separate variables all fitting into place at the same time:
- both of them going to the same conference
- both of them going to the same petrol station

The only thing in common is that in both cases, you don't accept a possible explanation of God.

I was discussing the 10 plagues, something Jimi brought up, not PDN's encounter which I doubt had anything to do with volcanic activity .

TravelJunkie

PDN wrote: »

Two weeks ago I was taking a few days break in Houston, Texas with my family. We had to be at a conference in San Antonio on the Monday - so we decided to drive across a couple of days early, on the Saturday. I was dealing with some difficult work situations and was praying, "God, I really need you to do something special to show me that you are in control and work things together for good."

Meanwhile, my next door neighbour has been preaching in churches in Florida for the last 2 months. He was also going to the same Conference in San Antonio and, unbeknown to me, also decided to get there a bit early. So on Thursday he started driving from Miami to San Antonio. Unfortunately he had no directions as to how to find the Conference venue - so as he made his way through the Florida Panhandle, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana etc. he prayed for God to help him find directions.

About 40 miles out of Houston I realised that we were low on gas so, on the spur of the moment, I swung into a beat-up old gas station beside the Interstate. My wife was asking, "What on earth are you doing?" as we always call at nice clean gas stations with decent rest rooms etc. I answered, "I don't know. It just seemed like the right thing to do."

As I got out of my car to pump gas I heard a voice saying, "No! I don't bellieve it!" There, on the other side of the same gas pump, was my next door neighbour. At first it took a while to register with me that it was him since I didn't recognise the car he had borrowed for the week.

I was able to give him directions to the Conference venue in San Antonio (I had assumed he would have flown there) and I got my reassurance that God was in control.

For the remainder of the trip to San Antonio (another three hours) I just kept laughing at this 'coincidence' and wondered what are the odds against us both being at the very same gas pump at the same location at the same time.

Oh, and by the way, God sorted out those work problems just fine.

This is a lovely story. People are a little sceptical... I wonder what they'd say about the time, when I was on a bus full of christian missionaries in Africa and our bus broke. The axle. We were living by faith. Some prayer was said and the bus started again.

Another one, It was my birthday, (that same year), I had no money and I was thirsty. God, if I only had a coke, I thought. Someone comes to me then, and gives me a coke, and says Happy Birthday (how did they know it's my birthday?) Anyways, I drink the coke in two gulps. I was very very thirsty.
Then, I think, if only I had drunk it slower. Then a second person bought me a coke.

This is hardly life-saving stuff but it meant the world to me.

Zombrex

TravelJunkie wrote: »

This is a lovely story. People are a little sceptical... I wonder what they'd say about the time, when I was on a bus full of christian missionaries in Africa and our bus broke. The axle. We were living by faith. Some prayer was said and the bus started again.

Given that a bus full of missionaries would probably start praying if the bus broke down, whether or not it is fixed, it is hard to see what is remarkable about that story. How many times does a bus full of missionaries brake down, they all start praying, and nothing happens.

Also one wonders if missionaries who are killed in bus accidents were they just not praying hard enough?

http://www.baptiststandard.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8242&Itemid=53

TravelJunkie wrote: »

Another one, It was my birthday, (that same year), I had no money and I was thirsty. God, if I only had a coke, I thought. Someone comes to me then, and gives me a coke, and says Happy Birthday (how did they know it's my birthday?) Anyways, I drink the coke in two gulps. I was very very thirsty.
Then, I think, if only I had drunk it slower. Then a second person bought me a coke.

Considering Coke has caffeine and tons of sugar in it, one wonders why God didn't send you water rather than Coke.

Maybe it was Satan. Does Satan answer prayers?

TravelJunkie

Wicknight wrote: »

Given that a bus full of missionaries would probably start praying if the bus broke down, whether or not it is fixed, it is hard to see what is remarkable about that story. How many times does a bus full of missionaries brake down, they all start praying, and nothing happens.

Also one wonders if missionaries who are killed in bus accidents were they just not praying hard enough?

http://www.baptiststandard.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8242&Itemid=53



Considering Coke has caffeine and tons of sugar in it, one wonders why God didn't send you water rather than Coke.

Maybe it was Satan. Does Satan answer prayers?

I apologise.

Although the stories are true, I only posted because I knew they would rile you up. (very uchristianlike of me).

Anyways, I wanted coke. Water would have been better for me, yes.

Flamed Diving

I was sitting down at my computer one time and thought 'Gee, I'd love to be sitting at a computer'. And when I opened my eyes, it came true!

Coincidence?

JimiTime

TravelJunkie wrote: »

This is a lovely story. People are a little sceptical... I wonder what they'd say about the time, when I was on a bus full of christian missionaries in Africa and our bus broke. The axle. We were living by faith. Some prayer was said and the bus started again.

Hang on, the Axel broke? You prayed and it was fixed? If this is so, then that is miraculous. If the axel broke, that bus would be going nowhere, absolutely nowhere. Any chance of elaboration?

Tim Robbins

TravelJunkie wrote: »

I apologise.

Although the stories are true, I only posted because I knew they would rile you up. (very uchristianlike of me).

Anyways, I wanted coke. Water would have been better for me, yes.

This thread is just reaching bizarre proportions.

Firstly, there's a very obvious ethical issue, which isn't a million miles from the climate change debate we recently had. Surely it's more important that babies stop dieing of malaria, getting cancer, starving to death, geting trachoma than a bus breaking down, someone bumping into their friend etc etc.

I would have thought that the Christian philosophy would mean that there is a clear distinction in which problems are worse and then the problems are treated as such. [Perhaps that's my misunderstanding].

Secondly: is there any good argument / experiment that would show progress on any of the more serious issues from prayer? I don't think there is.

I accept that there is evidence of action from humans who share the Christian philosophy on these issues (Trocaire for example) but there's just no evidence of prayer or God directly helping w.r.t. to any of these issues.

Zombrex

TravelJunkie wrote: »

I only posted because I knew they would rile you up.

Hey, if anyone is going to be doing riling up around here is it the atheists

JimiTime

Tim Robbins wrote: »

This thread is just reaching bizarre proportions.

Firstly, there's a very obvious ethical issue, which isn't a million miles from the climate change debate we recently had. Surely it's more important that babies stop dieing of malaria, getting cancer, starving to death, geting trachoma than a bus breaking down, someone bumping into their friend etc etc.

I would have thought that the Christian philosophy would mean that there is a clear distinction in which problems are worse and then the problems are treated as such. [Perhaps that's my misunderstanding].

Secondly: is there any good argument / experiment that would show progress on any of the more serious issues from prayer? I don't think there is.

I accept that there is evidence of action from humans who share the Christian philosophy on these issues (Trocaire for example) but there's just no evidence of prayer or God directly helping w.r.t. to any of these issues.

I know what you're saying Tim. However, when Jesus converted water to wine, or fed the many with the loaves and fishes, there were obviously folk elsewhere that were more needy. No-one is entitled to Gods help. If God helps a rich man get richer, then thats his perogative. Neither a rich man or a poor man are any more entitled or deserving. God chooses who he chooses. Thinking 'why did he lead PDN to that gas station, while my daughter died of Lukemia(an example of an incident, I've never had a daughter)', is a reasonable question. However, we don't decide who gets Gods help, God does. Read the book of Romans, especially the bit about Esau and Jacob for a bit more insight on the subject.

nozzferrahhtoo

If that is so then should I take it as a sign from God that this has never happened to me before? I have filled up my car hundreds, probably thousands, of times in the dozen or so petrol stations in my home town where I know hundreds of people - yet I have never pulled in beside a pump to find someone I know also pumping petrol from the very same pump at the very same time!

Any yet when it happens just once its a miracle? If something doesnt happen 1000s of times and then it happens once this is not a case of miracles, its a case of "about time".

But yes, i find it more suprising that you dont see people you know so often in your area that I find it suprising that you saw one person you know in this one situation. However in your story you didnt see the person this time either. HE saw YOU. Maybe you are just not very observant and the only reason it happened this time is the guy wanted something from you.

Therefore Id be less concerned in this case with the miracle and more concerned with why no one who sees you in gas stations generally wants to talk to you

TravelJunkie

JimiTime wrote: »

Hang on, the Axel broke? You prayed and it was fixed? If this is so, then that is miraculous. If the axel broke, that bus would be going nowhere, absolutely nowhere. Any chance of elaboration?

I don't think it was fixed on the spot. The bus 'held together' enough to travel miles to the next town. But you're right, because the guys working on it were amazed.

Tim Robbins

JimiTime wrote: »

I know what you're saying Tim. However, when Jesus converted water to wine, or fed the many with the loaves and fishes, there were obviously folk elsewhere that were more needy. No-one is entitled to Gods help. If God helps a rich man get richer, then thats his perogative. Neither a rich man or a poor man are any more entitled or deserving. God chooses who he chooses. Thinking 'why did he lead PDN to that gas station, while my daughter died of Lukemia(an example of an incident, I've never had a daughter)', is a reasonable question. However, we don't decide who gets Gods help, God does. Read the book of Romans, especially the bit about Esau and Jacob for a bit more insight on the subject.

I am glad you understand my point Jimitime and gave me a clear, honest response without waffle or double-think. However, this point is just another problem I have with the Christian God, even if he exists. He sounds like an egomaniac that intervens when he's in the mood and not where he is clearly needed most. As the philosopher, Colin McGinn states in the atheist tapes, if a human was doing that, what would your opinion of him be? Suppose your local GP, couldn't care about kid that was blind that he could cure, but help you change your spare wheel? it also seriously questions the christian maxim that God is love, it seems a very strange love.

I know the counter argument to this, God knows better... but that's very hard to accept. Would it not be more efficient to just help someone to remeber to bring a map rather than co-ordinate an elaborate sequence of events so that they bump into each other and then go wow? Surely they go more wow if he miracously gave a cure for kids getting cancer?

TravelJunkie

Wicknight wrote: »

Hey, if anyone is going to be doing riling up around here is it the atheists