TravelJunkie wrote: » I think there is a place and time for acceptance of things we do not fully understand.
PDN wrote: » Ah, but when I had atheism I had none of that. For some reason the wonderful coincidences didn't start happening for me until I was deluded by Christianity.
Wicknight wrote: » Not sure what you mean. Why would there be a time to accept something you don't understand? Understanding is something to be constantly striving for, not abandoned at the first time of challenge.
PDN wrote: » Two weeks ago I was taking a few days break in Houston, Texas with my family. We had to be at a conference in San Antonio on the Monday - so we decided to drive across a couple of days early, on the Saturday. I was dealing with some difficult work situations and was praying, "God, I really need you to do something special to show me that you are in control and work things together for good." Meanwhile, my next door neighbour has been preaching in churches in Florida for the last 2 months. He was also going to the same Conference in San Antonio and, unbeknown to me, also decided to get there a bit early. So on Thursday he started driving from Miami to San Antonio. Unfortunately he had no directions as to how to find the Conference venue - so as he made his way through the Florida Panhandle, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana etc. he prayed for God to help him find directions. About 40 miles out of Houston I realised that we were low on gas so, on the spur of the moment, I swung into a beat-up old gas station beside the Interstate. My wife was asking, "What on earth are you doing?" as we always call at nice clean gas stations with decent rest rooms etc. I answered, "I don't know. It just seemed like the right thing to do." As I got out of my car to pump gas I heard a voice saying, "No! I don't bellieve it!" There, on the other side of the same gas pump, was my next door neighbour. At first it took a while to register with me that it was him since I didn't recognise the car he had borrowed for the week. I was able to give him directions to the Conference venue in San Antonio (I had assumed he would have flown there) and I got my reassurance that God was in control. For the remainder of the trip to San Antonio (another three hours) I just kept laughing at this 'coincidence' and wondered what are the odds against us both being at the very same gas pump at the same location at the same time. Oh, and by the way, God sorted out those work problems just fine.
Wicknight wrote: » Yes but think at how much happier you would be if you had all that and atheism as well :pac:
TravelJunkie wrote: » I had to accept the Jesus' gospel at face value and act on it.
TravelJunkie wrote: » For example, how much digging would it take for it to be acceptable to you?
jackdaw wrote: » Delusional ... and sick ...
Wicknight wrote: » Why though? That is the bit I'm not following. Why take it on face value and act on it?A huge, huge amount. Though I consider that a good thing not a bad thing.
JimiTime wrote: » Why would it be better with Atheism? Atheism is without hope. Atheism is all negativity. Its 'I don't'. It offers absolutely nothing. PDN has taken a manual from the designer and creator of Life. This creator tells us the best way to live. Trusting the guidence contained in the book has shown PDN happiness. The only way I see Atheism 'seeming' better to the individual, is if that individual has desires which go against Gods guidence. Though, 'seeming' is the operative word.
jackdaw wrote: » Again, why do we need a God to show us the way to live ? it's about respect for your fellow man .. for all life .. we don't need a god to show us this,
JimiTime wrote: » Why would it be better with Atheism? Atheism is without hope. Atheism is all negativity. Its 'I don't'. It offers absolutely nothing.
JimiTime wrote: » PDN has taken a manual from the designer and creator of Life. This creator tells us the best way to live. Trusting the guidence contained in the book has shown PDN happiness.
TravelJunkie wrote: » But what exactly.
TravelJunkie wrote: » As to your first question, something in me allows me to trust.
Wicknight wrote: » Ultimately what he did could have been done without Christianity, and in my view would have been even better for it.
Fanny Cradock wrote: » You speak of it as if we believe we need the notion of a God - like some sort of metaphysical blanket.
PDN wrote: » Now that is sick and delusional! History demonstrates that, when it comes to having respect for our fellow men and for life, human nature is inadequate. We need God's help.
Wicknight wrote: » Ultimately people, humans, don't need God to justify being nice to each other
Fanny Cradock wrote: » I've not argued otherwise.
Charco wrote: » Where is the evidence for this? Human behaviour seems to pretty much the same with or without God. Off the top of my head I think of the example of the South American. Prior to the arrival of Christianity the various tribes fought wars between themselves and offered human sacrifices to appease their gods. At exactly the same time in Christian Europe the various states were fighting wars between themselves and offering human sacrifices to appease their God. Where is the evidence from human history to show a new found morality in civilizations which occurs only after (and directly because of) being introduced to God?
PDN wrote: » Ah yes, the power of atheism to turn around the lives of alcoholics etc. And the evidence for this happening is ... what exactly?
jackdaw wrote: » Delusional ... and sick ...God looks down on the world .. and sees all the starving kids, and the human rights violations that are occuring, ignores them .. but he singles out you .. to help your next door neighbour to get to a conference ??
Gaviscon wrote: » I taught I'd quote you there because Christian posters here focused on the words 'delusional' and 'sick' while totally avoiding (very valid) the question you posted. I totally agree that God seems a bit daft going out of his way to help some guy bump into his neighbour in a petrol station while overlooking war, famine etc. I'd like to get a good answer from that point, not just 'the Lord moves in mysterious ways' which is the biggest kop out ever.
PDN wrote: » Maybe I am just an extraordinarily lucky individual who keeps experiencing wacky coincidences that correlate with what I pray for. If so, then I've certainly not lost out by the experience. My Christian faith has given me a wonderful life, a marriage that gets better and better after 22 years, a wonderful daughter, and a job that I love so much that I look foward to starting work every day. It's also given me some of the best and most loyal wonderful friends that any man could ever wish for.
Splendour wrote: » BTW-plenty of people who are involved in AA have recovered from this disease and are not believers. Sorry if I'm appear to be arguing on the Athiest side-am just a realist is all...
PDN wrote: » That is untestable in civilizations as there has never been a truly atheist civilization or a truly Christian civilization. Human nature is pretty destructive and abusive, so it easy to produce examples of people who behaved badly while professing atheism, Buddhism, Christianity etc.
However, here is a challenge. Evidence galore exists in the lives of those who were violent or abusive people whiole rejecting the concept of God, yet dramatically changed for the better after their conversion to Christianity. I was one such person. How many examples can you find of people who were violent and abusive devout Christians yet changed dramatically for the better after they converted to atheism? I would be genuinely interested in hearing of any such testimonies to the power of atheism.
PDN wrote: » I think that we need to be very careful about relying on our assessments as to what is important or not. For example, in 1931 an English visitor to New York stupidly looked the wrong way when he was crossing the road (expecting the traffic to drive on the left!) and was struck by a car. He came within an inch of death but survived. He ascribed his survival to divine providence. On the face of it that would seem open to the criticisms you outline above. After all, of what significance was the life or death of an overweight English tourist - especially with contrasted with other more important issues of that year (Gandhi arrested, the Hawkes Bay earthquake, the Mangua earthquake, The Castellemmarese mafia War, the drowning of 450 in a riverboat disaster on the River Loire, the death of up to 4 million in the Huang He floods, the Belize hurricane killing 1500)? Yet it has been argued by historians that Winston's Churchill's survival of that New York traffic accident, and his 'delusional' ascribing of it to Providence, gave him the stubborn confidence to persist in his opposition to Nazism and, ultimately, to play a pivotal role in preventing the entire world falling under the domination of genocidal dictators.
PDN wrote: » The Christian's position is that God has a plan for each of us. We do not understand or realise the significance of that plan, but we are all important in God's purposes. What appears trivial or not worth bothering about may have untold consequences.
vibe666 wrote: » well done wolfsbane, that is absolutely priceless. any civilised human being would be appalled at the thought of a child being abused, but many more time so by the thought that their abuser did it to punish even a very close relative. what you seem to be saying is that your god punishes babies and children to show them how evil men can be because he sees them as sinners because of something that supposedly happened thousands of years ago to their most distant ancestor? that's great, congratulations on a sterling choice for a deity. :rolleyes:
wolfsbane wrote: » It is indisputable that we all suffer and die - babies, children, and adults. Sometimes that is because of our particular sins, in which case babies and children would not be involved. But we all are involved in being sinners by nature, and so inherit Adam's punishment.
wolfsbane wrote: » It is indisputable that we all suffer and die - babies, children, and adults. Sometimes that is because of our particular sins, in which case babies and children would not be involved. But we all are involved in being sinners by nature, and so inherit Adam's punishment. It is not like I am guilty of stealing a sheep because my great great grandfather stole one. Adam's nature is our nature, his fallen heart is ours - so too his punishment. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. If you can be sure we are not sinners, then you can be sure the God I speak of is not real. You will have to explain man's character in materialistic terms, and explain why it is wrong to murder, rape, oppress, etc.
