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A Discussion of the Rules (July 14th 2008)

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Comments

  • #182
    Wreck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭Wreck


    Boggles wrote: »
    if you put half as much effort into FOOTBALL discussion as ye do bítchíng there might be a significant improvement allround.

    Again, what's with the accusations of bitching for discussing the rules in the thread for discussing the rules?


  • #183
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,572 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Wreck wrote: »
    Again, what's with the accusations of bitching for discussing the rules in the thread for discussing the rules?

    At least try something before forming an opinion on it, then you can discuss (bítch) all day.


  • #184
    Wreck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭Wreck


    Boggles wrote: »
    At least try something before forming an opinion on it, then you can discuss (bítch) all day.

    Oh no, I'm not falling for that again. That's what my cell mate said to me about anal sex my first night in the joy.


  • #185
    SantryRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,224 ✭✭✭✭SantryRed


    This threads a load bollocks. It's changed and get on with it.

    Stop moaning:rolleyes:


  • #186
    Jazzy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,315 ✭✭✭Jazzy


    PHB wrote: »

    Match discussion in one thread.
    Anything else in another thread.

    A 5 year old child could understand that. Oh, you ya know what the most hilarious thing is. Pretty much every single other soccer forum on the internet has a match thread where all the match discussions go!! Jesus christ like.


    as far as im aware, most other forums dont have superthreads.


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  • #187
    leninbenjamin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭leninbenjamin


    Jazzy wrote: »
    as far as im aware, most other forums dont have superthreads.

    and most other forums also suck donkey balls.

    i'm happy with the new guidelines. for once i found it easy to keep track of the flow of conversation over the weekend.


  • #188
    Hobart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭Hobart


    I more or less highlighted the above issues here => http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56570442&postcount=116 over a month ago. The implementation of these rules are not going to work full time, as the line between team/match discussion is a blurred one.

    People telling people that they are "bitching" etc...are actually being counter-productive, and should just stfu, it's a discussion on the rules ffs.

    Secondly, I don't believe that it's a try before you buy type thing. It's valid and correct to discuss these things now, and it blatantly obvious that there has been confusion over the weekend about what should go where.

    I would suggest that if modding is an issue for the mods, they should reconsider their positions, nobody gets paid/forced to do this, step down if the forum is a pain in the ass.

    Astrofool makes some very valid points (waits for world to crack in half :D!!) as does redspider, I think the mods would do well to re-read what they have said, as some seem to have missed the point(s).


  • #189
    --amadeus--
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,095 ✭✭✭--amadeus--


    I'm a regular reader but occasional poster and so maybe have a slightly different perspective to some of the "old hands".

    First comment on the match threads is that they are quite "big 4" centric. As it happens I follow LFC so I don't mind but followers of other clubs may find it frustrating that any comments they might make will be swallowed by 3 pages about the big clubs, something that wouldn't have happened in club threads.

    On match threads there is an in-built assumption that everyone knows who everyone follows - "we" seems to be the most commonly used word! That coupled with player initials means that it can be difficult to follow the thread of a conversation - Poster 1 "We need to get the ball down and play it more!" Poster 2 "Our formation isn't working at all" - they could be agreeing or talking about totally different games! Unless you know who they suport you'dnever know and a jumble of simultanious discussion makes that worse. In essence the match thread makes it harder for fans of different teams to talk, not easier.

    Thirdy - the assumption has to be that everyone is over 16 here. What is the problem with disagreement? What's the harm in the occasional argument? There is a world of difference between trolling and disagreing but there seems to be an attempt to have an almost school debate type discussion. In the real world that's not how football conversations happen. A lighter moderator hand (using the new yellow / red card system, which is a great idea) might encourage people to act like grown ups

    At the moment there is a drive to encourage different sets of fans to talk to each other rather than shout at each other. This is good and worthwhile. But what's happening is a babble of noise and the new rules seem very unpopular. On teh surface they seem simple but the dividing line on match / non-match is too arbitrary and open to interpretation by moderators and posters. And what was so wrong with having multiple discussions in the first place?


  • #190
    Mr Alan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,372 ✭✭✭✭Mr Alan


    good post amadeus. not that i agree with it all, but its a good post.

    I think the weekend match threads should be broken up into two.

    *matches involving the big 4
    *matches excluding the big 4

    that really should make it dead simple to restrict match discussion to the correct place and make it dead easy to follow.


  • #191
    Xavi6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,016 ✭✭✭✭Xavi6


    --amadeus-- wrote: »
    First comment on the match threads is that they are quite "big 4" centric. As it happens I follow LFC so I don't mind but followers of other clubs may find it frustrating that any comments they might make will be swallowed by 3 pages about the big clubs, something that wouldn't have happened in club threads.

    Excellent point and one I can relate to.

    Don't agree with us being treated as second class citizens and threads being split to facilitate the 'Top 4'. Sure there are more Villa fans posting here than Chelsea.


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  • #192
    kida
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,456 ✭✭✭kida


    Would a simple resolution not to be to allow bigger teams (in terms of forum membership) a separate match thread, or perhaps any televised match can have its own thread?


  • #193
    Xavi6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,016 ✭✭✭✭Xavi6


    kida wrote: »
    Would a simple resolution not to be to allow bigger teams (in terms of forum membership) a separate match thread, or perhaps any televised match can have its own thread?

    But all matches are televised these days. Hit the red button or grab a stream.


  • #194
    Villain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,732 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Originally the mods said we could have as many threads as we like, not sure if that still is the case the way, the title of the match thread was changed.


  • #195
    5starpool
    Subscribers Posts: 32,869 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    While I appreciate that the dynamic and makeup of this forum makes it more attritional than most others, I think the no discussion of matches in superthreads is too far, and the post GuanYin saying that the only alternative is to issue month long bans for feck all is a ridiculously childish thing. I read here far more than I post here, but surely trolling/baiting of liverpool or man u fans is as likely to happen (or more likely given their nature) in the match discussion threads as it would be in the main threads?


  • #196
    Mr Alan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,372 ✭✭✭✭Mr Alan


    5starpool wrote: »
    but surely trolling/baiting of liverpool or man u fans is as likely to happen (or more likely given their nature) in the match discussion threads as it would be in the main threads?

    nope.

    saying something like Scholes is a dirty little player who cant tackle, or Steven Gerrard is hypocritcal as hell as he has just dived can be percieved as trolling when posted in the superthreads due to the territorial nature of them, whereas in the match thread, they are nothing more than observations that may or may not be true.


  • #197
    Wreck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭Wreck


    Well, hopefully the mods have decided to take a more lenient view on match discussion in the superthreads as there are now numerous posts in all of the threads discussing the weekend's games. Three examples below. Note these are not the best examples, but are rather chosen for who the posters are.

    GuanYin

    Boggles

    PHB

    This is definelty at odds with the sentiment that
    PHB wrote: »
    Anything that is related to the match will be deleted


    It seems that a comprimise may work?


  • #198
    Mr Alan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,372 ✭✭✭✭Mr Alan


    wreck: GYs is vague and is about the partnership between Torres and Keane and whether it will work.

    PHBs is about whether or not VDS should be dropped for upcoming games due to his mistake at the weekend.

    neither are specifically related to the match at the weekend. seems to me that people just wanna "fight the power" instead of giving the rules a shot and posting stuff purely to do with the match...eg:offside/onside/foul/line-ups/great goal/great save/yellow card/red card etc in the match thread, and everything else in the superthread.


  • #199
    Hobart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭Hobart


    Mr Alan wrote: »
    wreck: GYs is vague and is about the partnership between Torres and Keane and whether it will work.
    . It's not vague. In fact he quite clearly says that they do not look a good partnership to him "in the two games that he has seen". Games = matches = related
    PHBs is about whether or not VDS should be dropped for upcoming games due to his mistake at the weekend.
    PHB says "He made a mistake which resulted in a corner. While he's partly to blame for the goal", again clearly match related.
    neither are specifically related to the match at the weekend. seems to me that people just wanna "fight the power" instead of giving the rules a shot and posting stuff purely to do with the match...eg:offside/onside/foul/line-ups/great goal/great save/yellow card/red card etc in the match thread, and everything else in the superthread.
    I don't think it's anything got to do with a "fight the power" thing at all. As I have said before THIS IS A DISCUSSION OF THE RULES, and there are grey areas. If the rules are clarified, well then they are the rules that will have to be abided by, but discussing them is what this thread is all about.


  • #200
    Wreck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭Wreck


    Mr Alan wrote: »
    wreck: GYs is vague and is about the partnership between Torres and Keane and whether it will work.

    PHBs is about whether or not VDS should be dropped for upcoming games due to his mistake at the weekend.

    neither are specifically related to the match at the weekend. seems to me that people just wanna "fight the power" instead of giving the rules a shot and posting stuff purely to do with the match...eg:offside/onside/foul/line-ups/great goal/great save/yellow card/red card etc in the match thread, and everything else in the superthread.

    I'm not having a go or anything but the posts I linked to are definetly related to the weekend matches - GuanYin is discussing how Kean and Torres performed in the match against Sunderland, PHB is discussing VDS's performance against the toon. As I originally stated when linking to these posts, there are far more obvious/blatant match discussions ongoing in the superthreads and they are not being moved or deleted. If this is a softening of the no match discussion rule then it is something I very much welcome.

    And just so you can see what I am talking about, here is a link to a post that was made in one of the superthreads and subsequently moved to the match thread. Is this any more match related than any of the three posts I linked to?

    For what its worth, I truly respect the soccer mods and think they do a great job in keeping the forum organised and flame war free. I'm not trying to 'fight the power', I just want to see some common sense applied in relation to the match day and super threads.


  • #201
    Mr Alan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,372 ✭✭✭✭Mr Alan


    Hobart wrote: »
    . It's not vague. In fact he quite clearly says that they do not look a good partnership to him "in the two games that he has seen". Games = matches = related

    PHB says "He made a mistake which resulted in a corner. While he's partly to blame for the goal", again clearly match related.


    I don't think it's anything got to do with a "fight the power" thing at all. As I have said before THIS IS A DISCUSSION OF THE RULES, and there are grey areas. If the rules are clarified, well then they are the rules that will have to be abided by, but discussing them is what this thread is all about.

    this is bordering on ridiculous.

    its ok to discuss past matches/future matches in the superthreads, its also alright to refer to matches ie:i think VDS should be dropped for future matches cause of the mistake he made. I think the Keane/Torres thing may struggle due to the few performances i've seen so far.

    people are being so ****ing pedantic, its ****ing ridiculous.

    in my view, and i think in the view of the mods who have explained it numerous times already:

    incidents in the match directly before or after the match or discussion of someones performance in a particular match at/near the time of the match, lineups,refs decisions,goals,sending offs etc=match thread.

    everything else that is not as directly related to the game, superthread.


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  • #202
    herbieflowers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,604 ✭✭✭herbieflowers


    can I just aks what use the superthreads will be during the season? Seeing as the transfer window closes at the end of the month and no match talk is permitted?


  • #203
    5starpool
    Subscribers Posts: 32,869 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    Mr Alan wrote: »
    nope.

    saying something like Scholes is a dirty little player who cant tackle, or Steven Gerrard is hypocritcal as hell as he has just dived can be percieved as trolling when posted in the superthreads due to the territorial nature of them, whereas in the match thread, they are nothing more than observations that may or may not be true.

    I don't really see why the distinction needs to be made between where stupid comments like those you use as examples are made. Also, there is one poster in particular that I think is 90% trolling in the Liverpool thread (yes, I have reported at least one post of theirs without comment on thread) but nothing is done to stop him from talking his garbage in there so I guess my interpretation is different to the mods here.

    I don't use the ignore feature as I prefer to see who I disagree with, but the fact that it pisses off quite a lot of posters/readers of this forum as well as makes a lot of extra work it seems for the mods means that there has to be an easier way surely?

    Edit - @Alan - so we can talk about last weeks match but not the match happening that day? It is pointless segregation for the sake of it tbh. Let people talk about what they want, if they go too far warn/ban them like any other forum. If there is too much going on add en extra mod for more coverage.


  • #204
    GuanYin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,552 ✭✭✭✭GuanYin


    As I said before, unless someone is obviously trying to break the rules or continues to post in the wrong threads despite knowing better, noone is going to be sanctioned for posting in the wrong place by accident.

    I'll explain this as simply as I can - there is no crayon option, although some of you seem to need it.

    YOU (the guys complaining, and I could cite so many examples by nearly everyone in this thread) become like kindergarden kids in match threads when during a match discussion someone posts something negative about your teams.

    You call them trolls (despite this being against the rules) hot report post and then partake in a several page long flame war basically telling them not to post in "your thread". (Does anyone want to try and deny that this happens?).

    So effectively, some of you (and I'm happy to name names here ) try, whether they realize it or not, to censor discussion in the soccer forum.

    We don't like this, generally the users don't like this and despite us telling you to stop, you won't.

    So we're changing the rules.

    We'll see how it goes and how it changes the dynamics of conversation. Feedback from several posters has been positive so far.

    The other alternative would be to ban any attempts by you guys to censure opposing opinions in superthreads. I'm happy to do that by handing out 1 month on the spot bans for anyone trying to get another poster banned and anyone arguing in a superthread. I personally don't thik some of you would last a week.

    If it doesn't work out in a few months, we'll review the situation. If you don't like this, you don't have to post or use the forum, the system is being tried. If anything is going to get closed, it will be the superthreads because they are the origin of about 90% of the bans in his forum.

    As for us resignig from modding if we can't handle it. Nothing of the sort. We are handling it. However that arguement is effectively saying, "We don't care about the rules, will behave how we want, we're not going to allow changes that effect how we behave, if you don't like how we behave, resign from modding". That isn't going to happen.

    That is pretty much the end of the dicussion on the matter from our point of view, you can keeep talking, you know the rules on the situation, if you try and break the rules purposefully, we'll moderate.


  • #205
    Villain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,732 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    GuanYin wrote: »

    That is pretty much the end of the dicussion on the matter.
    I was going to reply but the last line draws a line under the thread, so basically discussion is over and those who have said positive things are thanked and their posts taken onboard everyone else who has said anything that isn't positive is ignored and called children?


  • #206
    --amadeus--
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,095 ✭✭✭--amadeus--


    I understand that Boards is not a democracy but does it have to be quite so autocratic?

    And if that's "pretty much the end of teh discussion on the matter" why have a thread for rules discussion? Perhaps there is a need for a crayon option because posters are being treated like children?

    Anyone using the internet for more than a week can tell the difference between trolling and discussing. And I don't get why simply saying that you feel someone is trolling (ie being provocative just to get a reaction) is such a no-no, we're big boys and girls, we can deal with it.

    In fact re-reading this thread the ordinary posters have - in the majority - been calm, rational and have thoughtfuly (and with examples) argued there case. It is the moderators who have been emotional, dismissive, argumentative and condacending. Not one of teh many resonible objections to the new system has been listened to or even acknowledged.

    I know that it won't bother anyone but I don't particulalry want to be treated like a child so I'm off to threads and boards where a slightly more mature moderation policy exisist.


  • #207
    GuanYin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,552 ✭✭✭✭GuanYin


    Villain wrote: »
    I was going to reply but the last line draws a line under the thread, so basically discussion is over and those who have said positive things are thanked and their posts taken onboard everyone else who has said anything that isn't positive is ignored and called children?

    I've thanked noone.

    This debate is going in circles and hitting levels of pedantry that *is* just childish.

    We're a week into the season. In maybe a month or two I'll entertain feedback on this, either positive or negative.

    I apologize for treating people like children, however *some* posters are acting like children. Look at feedback for that.

    If in a whiles things don't look to be working, we'll open discussion then.
    --amadeus-- wrote:
    And if that's "pretty much the end of teh discussion on the matter" why have a thread for rules discussion? Perhaps there is a need for a crayon option because posters are being treated like children?

    Rules may be discussed, I never said we were obiged to act. From our point of view, there is nothing to discuss until we see how this works.



    =================


    Already I can tell you there have been less bannings/trolling than an average match week. There have been much less bannings/trolling than an average week where United or Liverpool don't win.

    I'll remind everyone that this is a private forum. You agreed to the rules of the forum before you joined.


  • #208
    Hobart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭Hobart


    GuanYin wrote: »
    <snip>
    As for us resignig from modding if we can't handle it. Nothing of the sort. We are handling it. However that arguement is effectively saying, "We don't care about the rules, will behave how we want, we're not going to allow changes that effect how we behave, if you don't like how we behave, resign from modding". That isn't going to happen.
    If this is aimed in my direction, which I presume it is, you seem to have gotten your wires crossed. My "step down" comment was made in relation to your (petulant) post on page 12, the so-called "hard-ass" approach.

    It's not a question of argument for arguments sake, and tbh, your quoting of "previous weeks" is a bit like hard cases and bad law.

    I don't, and never have, advocated "not caring for the rules", I don't know anybody who posts here on a regular basis, that has.
    That is pretty much the end of the dicussion on the matter from our point of view, you can keeep talking, you know the rules on the situation, if you try and break the rules purposefully, we'll moderate.
    I think that maybe that that is the nub of the issue. Some people don't know the rules, or moreso, how the rules will be enforced and policed.

    But heh, let's see how it goes, will we?


  • #209
    GuanYin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,552 ✭✭✭✭GuanYin


    Hobart wrote: »
    I think that maybe that that is the nub of the issue. Some people don't know the rules, or moreso, how the rules will be enforced and policed.

    But heh, let's see how it goes, will we?

    OK, well that message seems to have been lost in the storm of pedantry that has been whipped up here.

    My view is (and I think the other mods agree - and listen, there is no point in posting 20 examples of where PHB said something that you guys feel meant something else, it isn't helping anything):

    The match threads are the only place where the match should be discussed in terms of Incidents and tactics (including but not limited to: goals, misses, refereeing decisions, tackles, injuries, manager comments on the game itself, player comments on the game, the pitch condition, a player's performance in that game, team selection's effect on the result etc).

    If you're discussing the best player for a position, tactics or team for upcoming games, overall player performances etc obviously you need to reference matches.

    If you're doing on the day or day after a game and it decends into a discussion on the performance of a player in a game specifically, we can only assume you meant to post it in the match thread, right?

    Listen, this was explained before, but I know how things work.

    Use common sense. We're not going to lay down a set list of specific rules so certain people can carefully plot how to get around them.

    Discussing a match and discussing your team should be easy to distinguish for all of you. If a genuine mistake is made, noone is going to be banned (3rd time saying this), something will be moved, no harm done.

    If people start trying to make a mockery of this, that is where I get annoyed.


  • #210
    5starpool
    Subscribers Posts: 32,869 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    The more you treat people like children, the more they will live up to it. Most people are reasonable. Some of these reasonable people get slightly heated from time to time, and this should be treated on a case by case basis. Some people are not able to have reasonable discussion. These are the twats that cause most of the trouble, some of them quite subtle about it.


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  • #211
    eagle eye
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,037 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    I just read this thread now, I presume when you guys say superthreads you are talking about the threads of the big clubs. I just started a Blackburn one yesterday and there have been discussions on the match in it but to be fair we are a small club and there will not be many posters in it if we don't discuss the matches there.

    I am only asking about it now so that I can abide by the rules in future.


This discussion has been closed.
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