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Answerin yer Questions

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  • 06-08-2008 3:38am
    #1
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭


    Right I've made a few starts at doin this, but there are so many off Topic points in each thread that I felt it a good idea to start a whole new thread, just to get it out of the way so we can proceed onto other matters.


    So if anyone out there would like to ask me their loaded questions I'll try to respond as best I can


«13

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    #2
    Skeptic_Desu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Skeptic_Desu


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    Right I've made a few starts at doin this, but there are so many off Topic points in each thread that I felt it a good idea to start a whole new thread, just to get it out of the way so we can proceed onto other matters.


    So if anyone out there would like to ask me their loaded questions I'll try to respond as best I can
    Ok.
    Do you believe the holocaust happened?


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    #3
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    Yes, but there issome dispute over the actual numbers.

    Next question


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    #4
    Skeptic_Desu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Skeptic_Desu


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    Yes, but there issome dispute over the actual numbers.

    Next question
    I don't think we're done. Elaborate a little. Are we talking actual dispute or some fringe nazi making **** up?


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    #5
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    anything I say in regards this will be taken out of context later and used by yerself or others to paint me into a corner as a
    "Fringe Nazi"

    so yes we're done with this question

    do you believe the numbers?


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    #6
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    I've previously stayed out of the whole holocaust discussion but if there's debate about it being 5.5 million and not 6 then fine. But suggestions that it is much less than 5.5 are just rubbish. There is so much evidence and much of it from the Nazi's own records, which there were very efficient at keeping.


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    #7
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    meglome wrote: »
    I've previously stayed out of the whole holocaust discussion but if there's debate about it being 5.5 million and not 6 then fine. But suggestions that it is much less than 5.5 are just rubbish. There is so much evidence and much of it from the Nazi's own records, which there were very efficient at keeping.

    Mahatma has announced that he thinks 1-2 mil jews died in the Holocaust max (his words) and that people like the Commandant of Auswitz exaggerated the number (he has yet to explain why he thinks this Nazi would do such a thing).


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    #8
    Skeptic_Desu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Skeptic_Desu


    Diogenes wrote: »
    Mahatma has announced that he thinks 1-2 mil jews died in the Holocaust max (his words) and that people like the Commandant of Auswitz exaggerated the number (he has yet to explain why he thinks this Nazi would do such a thing).
    So it's not so much dispute, more he ignores the evidence.


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    #9
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Is 2 million any less shocking than 6 million?


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    #10
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    It's shocking that 4 million people are being ignored.


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    #11
    Gillo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Gillo


    Diogenes wrote: »
    Mahatma has announced that he thinks 1-2 mil jews died in the Holocaust max (his words) and that people like the Commandant of Auswitz exaggerated the number (he has yet to explain why he thinks this Nazi would do such a thing).

    He had target's to reach and was one some sort of productivity bonus?
    That said I accept the 5.5 - 6 million figure, I've no reason to doubt it.

    Right, next question, what makes you the expert on conspiracies'?


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    #12
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    We've had this discussion before, I dont believe the Jews, I think they exagerated the figures and co opted the misery of others to further their own gains, I believe that there were maybe 2 million actual Jews Gassed/shot/dealt with, the rest of the 6 mil was eastern europeans and russians non combatants (some of whom had Jewish ancestry).

    the reason Eichman would have exagerated, hell the reason most of them exagerated, was pride and a desire to overinflate their part in the "Glorious Final Solution" these guys firmly believed that they were doing the right thing by killing these people, they wanted to take the credit for the deaths of millions of people, a lot of them were annoyed that they didnt get to finish the job, whats so hard to understand about that?



    Now, is this played out? or do ye want to rinse and repeat


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    #13
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    Gillo wrote: »
    He had target's to reach and was one some sort of productivity bonus?

    Yes because Genocidal fascists are in for the productivity bonus.
    That said I accept the 5.5 - 6 million figure, I've no reason to doubt it.

    Right, next question, what makes you the expert on conspiracies'?

    I'm not saying I'm the expert. But if you'd care to examine my previous posts on this forum and point out where I am wrong, I'm all ears.
    We've had this discussion before, I dont believe the Jews, I think they exagerated the figures and co opted the misery of others to further their own gains, I believe that there were maybe 2 million actual Jews Gassed/shot/dealt with, the rest of the 6 mil was eastern europeans and russians non combatants (some of whom had Jewish ancestry).

    And your basis for this assertion is?

    In the previous thread you denied that accepted death toil of civilians from Nazi extermination is 11 million.

    You've yet to provide any evidence that the death toil was 6 million.

    the reason Eichman would have exagerated, hell the reason most of them exagerated, was pride and a desire to overinflate their part in the "Glorious Final Solution" these guys firmly believed that they were doing the right thing by killing these people, they wanted to take the credit for the deaths of millions of people, a lot of them were annoyed that they didnt get to finish the job, whats so hard to understand about that?



    Now, is this played out? or do ye want to rinse and repeat

    Eichman's figures are supported by Nazi records, census records, and thousands of eyewitness reports.

    Your frankly, infantile, argument is that Nazis, Soviets, the USA, and the entirety of post war europe collaborated with "the Jews" as well as every credible historian of the era.

    What evidence do you have this is bullcrap Mahatma?


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    #14
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    Incidentally if anyone wants to see just how odious and ignorant mahatma's arguments are;

    read here

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055312851&page=2&highlight=nick

    I'm sure he's a few minutes away from claiming he's being misquoted.


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    #15
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    I'm not gonna go down the route of snide Jibes and abuse with you

    do you want to re read my posts in the Banking threads and ask your questions, I suggest you re red them first rather than just posting your questions as there are a lot of bits you seem to have just made up and thrown in for the laugh that I never mentioned


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    #16
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    I'm not gonna go down the route of snide Jibes and abuse with you

    do you want to re read my posts in the Banking threads and ask your questions, I suggest you re red them first rather than just posting your questions as there are a lot of bits you seem to have just made up and thrown in for the laugh that I never mentioned

    Generally I'd kinda admire your perseverance in many things you post. Even though you're shown to be incorrect you stick at it and by doing so keep the forum going, fair enough I suspect your smoking a lot of weed but there you go. But this really isn't one of those times. To say that the Soviets, the USA, the British, the French all exaggerated the numbers doesn't make any sense. Stalin killed a good 20 million of his own people after the war why would the Soviets care less about these Jew to exaggerate the numbers. Why in all that's holy would the Nazi's themselves keep records of the huge numbers they killed unless they really did it. No one will ever know the exact number but it's a good 5 million and maybe 6. The idea that there is this all powerful zionist group that can control all this information is an utter joke, there's just too many people involved gathering these numbers to be able to influence them.


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    #17
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    Mahoooosive Quantities of Weed :D:D;):D:D

    If I had the answers to your questions I'd post them here.

    I have heard acounts of theHolocaustfromboth camps,and the more I hear fromthe Jews the less I believe their story.

    The russians would have reason to exagerate, they could blame a lot of the genocide they perpetratd on the Germans, the Victors wished to Vilify Germany for its actions, the Jews wanted Israel, so they exagerated the numbers, sidelined the other victims, and gave it their best 'PoorMe'

    I dont doubt that they killed Jews, just not as many as they claim, tis my belief that they are doubling up in a lot of cases, ie - from Belarus, Jewish Granmother, counted as both, then just put down as Jewish in the final tally.


    You dont think there was a Zionist Conspiracy?

    Why did the Nazi's attack the Jews in the first place?


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    #18
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    Mahoooosive Quantities of Weed :D:D;):D:D

    I'd ease up and see how many conspiracies you see then and I'm not trying to be smart at all.
    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    I have heard acounts of theHolocaustfromboth camps,and the more I hear fromthe Jews the less I believe their story.

    You say Jews like they are all of the same mind and always agree with each other. So if I say all the catholic's are the same is that true? Many different credible historians from many different backgrounds agree with with the 6 million figure so it's by no means the 'Jews'. And really it isn't 'their' story, it's information taken from many different sources, obviously Jewish people took a major interest in finding out how many had been killed. But to say the 'Jews' like they could make up or majorly inflate this episode in history is just crap.
    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    The russians would have reason to exagerate, they could blame a lot of the genocide they perpetratd on the Germans, the Victors wished to Vilify Germany for its actions, the Jews wanted Israel, so they exagerated the numbers, sidelined the other victims, and gave it their best 'PoorMe'

    The Soviets didn't justify anything. That's the 'great' thing about a totalitarian state you don't need to, you just send some more people off to the camps in Siberia and the rest stay quiet. The allies had no intention of giving the Jews Israel, if I remember my history correctly they made it as difficult as possible for a lot of Jews to get to Israel. I think any race of people who have been that has been as maligned over the centuries would be entitled to some 'poor me'. I think the Irish have been entitled to some of that too.
    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    I dont doubt that they killed Jews, just not as many as they claim, tis my belief that they are doubling up in a lot of cases, ie - from Belarus, Jewish Granmother, counted as both, then just put down as Jewish in the final tally.

    Again with the 'they'. There is just too much evidence to actually back up the numbers.
    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    You dont think there was a Zionist Conspiracy?

    Outside of the conspiracy sites that would be a no. And even if there was I have no idea how they could possibly fake and/or interfere with all the evidence of the mass killings of Jewish people during the war. It's just not plausible and would be near impossible.
    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    Why did the Nazi's attack the Jews in the first place?

    Why did they attack the gypsies? Why did they attack the Russians? Xenophobia at it's best or should I say worst.

    To be quite honest you post smacks of the paranoid ramblings of many of the conspiracies sites regarding the 'Jews'. It also comes across as racist. Any Jewish people I've met over the years were the same as every other person I've met, people are people.


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    #19
    Skeptic_Desu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Skeptic_Desu


    meglome wrote: »

    Why did they attack the gypsies? Why did they attack the Russians? Xenophobia at it's best or should I say worst.
    Lets not forget the disabled, the mentally ill and the Jehovah's witnesses


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    #20
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Skeptic_Desu wrote: »
    Lets not forget the disabled, the mentally ill and the Jehovah's witnesses
    Plus he was none to fond of the Irish!


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    #21
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    humanji wrote: »
    It's shocking that 4 million people are being ignored.

    How many people to we have to reduce that to before its not shocking?

    I ask because unless we can come to some reasonable figure, then we must accept that the only way to ensure a non-shocking figure is to take the best research available and then overstate the conclusions by a greater degree than any reasonable uncertainty.


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    #22
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    Mahatma coat wrote: »

    I have heard acounts of theHolocaustfromboth camps,and the more I hear fromthe Jews the less I believe their story.

    Could you perhaps give us where you are getting your "fromthejews" official account?
    Why did the Nazi's attack the Jews in the first place?

    Whats your point here MC?

    A) hey the Nazi's wouldn't have been after the Jew's without Just cause?

    B) huh?

    Seriously whats. your. point.

    Are you so ignorant of the depth and level of anti semitic feelings in europe from the dark ages to the rise of nazi germany?

    Jesus are you really this ignorant?


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    #23
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    bonkey wrote: »
    How many people to we have to reduce that to before its not shocking?

    I ask because unless we can come to some reasonable figure, then we must accept that the only way to ensure a non-shocking figure is to take the best research available and then overstate the conclusions by a greater degree than any reasonable uncertainty.
    I wasn't saying there has to be a set number. It was in response to:
    Flamed Diving wrote:
    Is 2 million any less shocking than 6 million?

    I was pointing out that if you claim it was only 2 million instead of 6, then there's a balance of 4 million people whos existence has been wiped from history. Imagine if instead of noting everyone who died in WW2 we only commenorated the death of one person. Would that be fair to all the others who died? Well, that was the point I was trying to make :)


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    #24
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    humanji wrote: »
    Imagine if instead of noting everyone who died in WW2 we only commenorated the death of one person. Would that be fair to all the others who died? Well, that was the point I was trying to make :)

    I understand...I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make.

    Its easy to pick extremes and say that 1 instead of tens of millions is outrageous, or 2 million instead of 6 million. It would be equally outrageous to claim that 20 million were killed, rather than 6 million.

    I'm asking where the outrage stops.

    I'm fairly certain, for example, that the Jewish death-toll was no such round number as 6 million. So by how much are we (possibly) overstating or understating and why is this over/understatement not outrageous?

    I'd hope that we'd get to an answer which says that a figure is not outrageous when it is the best we can produce given the evidence at hand.

    This should lead us then to ask what the evidence behind the claim of 2,000,000 is, rather than simply dismissing it out of hand as being outrageous because its a gross understatement.

    If 2,000,000 is outrageous as a claim, it should be because it is based on outrageous evidence, rather than because it is inaccurate with a figure we believe in.


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    #25
    Kernel
    Registered Users Posts: 4,388 ✭✭✭Kernel


    bonkey wrote: »
    I understand...I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make.

    Its easy to pick extremes and say that 1 instead of tens of millions is outrageous, or 2 million instead of 6 million. It would be equally outrageous to claim that 20 million were killed, rather than 6 million.

    I'm asking where the outrage stops.

    I'm fairly certain, for example, that the Jewish death-toll was no such round number as 6 million. So by how much are we (possibly) overstating or understating and why is this over/understatement not outrageous?

    I'd hope that we'd get to an answer which says that a figure is not outrageous when it is the best we can produce given the evidence at hand.

    This should lead us then to ask what the evidence behind the claim of 2,000,000 is, rather than simply dismissing it out of hand as being outrageous because its a gross understatement.

    If 2,000,000 is outrageous as a claim, it should be because it is based on outrageous evidence, rather than because it is inaccurate with a figure we believe in.

    Isn't it great that we can question this without being imprisoned. Could the death camps have physically processed/killed 6 million in the years of operation is what I would ask.


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    #26
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Kernel wrote: »
    Isn't it great that we can question this without being imprisoned. Could the death camps have physically processed/killed 6 million in the years of operation is what I would ask.

    Indeed it is great we can question this, wasn't it you that suggested a police state was coming though?

    Well considering Stalin is estimated to have killed 20 million of his own people (with no reason for 'the Jews' to 'exaggerate') I say that's very possible. Since the Nazi's were gassing people in large sheds I'd imagine you could go through an awful lot of people very quickly.


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    #27
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    meglome wrote: »
    Well considering Stalin is estimated to have killed 20 million of his own people.

    Much larger time period.


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    #28
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    Much larger time period.

    True but he wasn't putting them in large sheds and gassing them either.


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    #29
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    Kernel wrote: »
    Could the death camps have physically processed/killed 6 million in the years of operation is what I would ask.

    I refer back to my own post.

    If you want to argue that the accepted "best guess" is wrong, then provide the evidence to show that best guess is wrong.

    If you want to argue that a different figure is more accurate, then the onus is on you to provide evidence as to why we should accept that your figure is more accurate. I don't disregard it because someone can formulate a question nicely.

    I mean...how go we really know that the sun rose on the 11 of June, 846? Thats what I reallly want to know.


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    #30
    Kernel
    Registered Users Posts: 4,388 ✭✭✭Kernel


    meglome wrote: »
    Indeed it is great we can question this, wasn't it you that suggested a police state was coming though?

    Well considering Stalin is estimated to have killed 20 million of his own people (with no reason for 'the Jews' to 'exaggerate') I say that's very possible. Since the Nazi's were gassing people in large sheds I'd imagine you could go through an awful lot of people very quickly.

    I doubt the camps could have processed 6 million people. That's the population of a small country. No doubt they did participate in a massive campaign of ethnic cleansing in such a vile way - but 6 million in 3 years? BTW - where did I suggest a police state was coming?


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    #31
    Kernel
    Registered Users Posts: 4,388 ✭✭✭Kernel


    bonkey wrote: »
    I refer back to my own post.

    If you want to argue that the accepted "best guess" is wrong, then provide the evidence to show that best guess is wrong.

    If you want to argue that a different figure is more accurate, then the onus is on you to provide evidence as to why we should accept that your figure is more accurate. I don't disregard it because someone can formulate a question nicely.

    I mean...how go we really know that the sun rose on the 11 of June, 846? Thats what I reallly want to know.

    Bonkey, why resort to such pedantry as in the last sentances of your post? Do you believe that the death camps could have processed so many in their years of operation? It would amount to around 5, 500 people per day would it not?


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