Who is going to be in the IAA now.

Puding wrote: »

did you report this to the iaa? i don;t think the iaa is in the position to do test buys at the moment if you do, then fair play and i hope the iaa followed up on it, if you did not then why not how is anyone meant to do anything about it without info,

This issue of hot aeg being sold via shops was brought up with the iaa by a number of cork players after they brought some hot items from inside Ireland, this issue as far as I'm aware was handled in private without having a b***** in public.

why would i do that?
im not goin to go starting sh1t between an organisation and one of their affiliated retailers.

im sure it was a mistake as is only human nature and so rectified the problems for them myself.

i just took exception to the myth that because a seller is IAA affiliated that they are guaranteed a gun that is with in the limit.

gandalf wrote: »

Well if you are stating facts I assume you have proof bar my mate down the pub told me. If you don't you had better withdraw this statement.

If I see anymore hearsay comments like this there will be bannings, you won't be infracted you will be banned for a month.

thats no hear say lad, i have pics of the chrono readings myself and can upload them if you like. i also changed springs for the two lads as it was handler that posting or travelling to dublin.

so unfortunately im not goin to be withdrawing my statement.

that said im sure that there are a number of good reasons to join the IAA, but i do not consider it a fail safe.

someone mentioned before that a reason for joining is that they could provide you with a letter on headed paper , in case you should have an problems with the guards.

to be perfectly honest that is a optomistic in the extreme as it would be unlikey to sway a guard unless he was aware of the sport as a whole or very credulous guard.

if they were recognised by the sports council then yes this would be a good reason to join, as they would be somewhat official.

Frank the Manc wrote: »

why would i do that?
im not goin to go starting sh1t between an organisation and one of their affiliated retailers.

im sure it was a mistake as is only human nature and so rectified the problems for them myself.

i just took exception to the myth that because a seller is IAA affiliated that they are guaranteed a gun that is with in the limit.

OK so you are not trying to be malicious. That was not clear from your initial statement. Based on previous threads that have transformed into flame wars we tend to be very strict on claims like this.

thats no hear say lad, i have pics of the chrono readings myself and can upload them if you like. i also changed springs for the two lads as it was handler that posting or travelling to dublin.

so unfortunately im not goin to be withdrawing my statement.

I am assuming that the retailer in question was contacted to let them know the AEG's were over the limit so they could check any other stock from the same batch that they had.

Fair enough on the statement you didn't name the exact retailer.

that said im sure that there are a number of good reasons to join the IAA, but i do not consider it a fail safe.

Well it could also be said if the original purchasers of the AEG's reported the retailer to the IAA they could address the issue directly with the retailer. If they didn't then yes it isn't a failsafe as they won't know that there are issues with retailers.

someone mentioned before that a reason for joining is that they could provide you with a letter on headed paper , in case you should have an problems with the guards.

to be perfectly honest that is a optomistic in the extreme as it would be unlikey to sway a guard unless he was aware of the sport as a whole or very credulous guard.

A fair few members have had contact with the Gardai, one was even taken to a Garda station until they cleared up the AEG was in fact legal. So a letter is definitely no guarantee that Le Flick will leave you alone.

if they were recognised by the sports council then yes this would be a good reason to join, as they would be somewhat official.

Well for that they need numbers so its a vicious circle really. If you don't join they won't get in a position to get recognition.

Again even if you don't like the make up of the committee or the way things are running at the moment join. Organise yourself with others who think the way you do and do something about it at the AGM.

What is completely pathetic are those that whinge but have never done anything positive for airsoft. (this comment is not aimed at you btw)

You guys.... not happy with it...not happy with out it, Mods lock this, for all of your attention, all of you. The IAA has its own website and Forum, and I know for one that there is very little going on there, cos you all over HERE going on about it! I registered over there cos I'm interested in what the IAA might be doing, So do the same will ya, cos Airsofters from far and wide are viewing this and possibly think that we are all a bunch of tw*ts...and at this point in the proceedings, I'd have to agree. Get over yourselves would ya, this is your sport, don't bury it with your pointless squabbles...

Agreed Vtec, one incident and all hell breaks loose. guys ,you'd think with all the bother that has arisen about bringing AEG's in from the far east you'd be pleased that we have responsible retailers to do this for us. Its now costing more, and with delays and everthing it makes more sense to support our inland retailers, which ever you choose. If there is or was an exception, they have, and will sort it out, so stop the knocking guys. this isn't helping anyone.

(by the way, as of this time, I am still the only twit logged onto the IAA website! so where are you lot?, probably in the pub:o)

I know, i was in there as well..no sign of any of these bods in there....

Iceage resting case.....

So, without addressing Any of the original posters to this thread....what do we all reckon to the life expectancy of Airsoft in Ireland??

I'd like to think it has a future, but thats just me.... comments on a postcard, to.

" I love Airsoft and hope it has a future in Ireland"

Santa's Kingdom.
North Pole.
Top of the world.

I stand corrected, Mad Ozzie is in there!!!

For what it is I'd say it'll always be a fringe sport (like paintball) and there'll never be a huge number playing. The biggest threat to it is the fact that the aegs and GBBs look so realistic (more real than the real thing sometimes!) and in time we'll have something like the vcra (the right name for it?) over here.

But if you look at paintball and the expense and hassle with having to get a license or letter from the local garda and it's still around. Hell you even see people (and sexy models too) advertising it outside St Stephens Green shopping centre!!! Airsoft just needs more media exposure (of the good kind - tv shows using it and the like) and some more time to grow and it may even replace paintball! After all we can own our own aegs!

Well I joined ages ago, and also paid my money etc
I reckoned at the time it was better to be a member than a non member
as It could to no harm. I'm still awaiting an ID card.

I'm still of the opinion its better to be a member than a non member.

My main reason for joining was to get the ID card in reality and be part of some official organisation with the specific reason if I ever ran into some igornance with the side of the law thinking airsoft was not legal then I would have proof of could contact an association that would fight my corner or have an offical body to prove that airsoft equipment was legal........but.......
its been said the ID card is not a "get out of jail free card" which is true
but it may help being a member rather than being in a situation where
you have to justify having a load of replica/imitation guns to the cops.

I have real guns and have a licence for each of them but I think
if my Local Crime Prevention Officer or Firearms officer saw my collection
of Airsoft Equipment they would have a heart attack and either think
they needed to be placed in a secure safe or think I was mentally unstable
and a gun nut. Again a IAA membership card would be a handy thing
to show them or some contact with an offical body to explain things
to them is good.

As a collector rather than a skirmisher I dont have to worry about
transporting AEG or in general being seen with one by a member of the
public what I do worry about is changes to Irish Law which places resrictions
on what and what I cannot buy or all of a sudden needing to have a bright
Pink AEG or see-through or worse case scenario a Licence. All of this
I see the IAA being able to Help.

With that said I am skeptical of the IAA. (no offense intended)
Everytime there is a mention of it here its almost like Taboo!
Why exactly is that??? There must be a reason??
there is a pressure that we cannot even say boo about it or question anything about it without getting a thread
lock or being told goto the offical IAA webpage, goto the AGM and do something about it, Mods Mods lock this someones talking about the IAA.... on boards.ie etc etc etc.

At this stage Its a refreshing change to have an IAA discussion thread not locked

Why should we need to goto the offical page when the roots and all the Irish Airsoft discussion more or less orginated right here on this board.

I'm quite happy to discuss everyhing airsoft related right here.
Why because the majority of people I think read here first and
not the other websites.

All the people that winge and moan are venting frustrations and trying
to get them out in the open! which is healthy rather than leaving a build up
of reservations boil over and expolde one of the days.

AGMs! Mmmmmm I'm not going to have the time to travel all the way up to Dublin and sit in a room talking to strangers for something that is one of many
interests I have (I assume an AGM will be a Dublin based thing and not any other county) Its far more easier to discuss things and vote on the internet or even have a live chat of live speak! or minutes of meetings.
Saves everyone country wide the hassle of travel.

Out if interest are there any NON Dublin region people in charge of the IAA?
wondering if there a representitives from other counties across Ireland for the
IAA.

To be a member you sign something similar like Terms and Conditions
or guidelines which are all so far practical sense like dont brandish an Airsoft device in Public or use one to shoot at animals etc etc All good common sense which is well and good. What worries me is "IF" more and more things
get added to this where by its getting to a stage where in order to be affiliated with the IAA you MUST conform to A, B, C, D etc and they
start telling you what to do and become some Power Hungry Regamine
where if you dis-agree with something your out.

The whole Laser thing ticked me off becuse I've always been of
the opinion that Laser pointers mounted to either a real firearm or an
airsoft device were not specifically Illeagal. Here on this board
we could not even discuss them without getting a thread lock
and the IAA took the side of Caution on the topic Fortunatly there was
clarification on the whole debate thanks to Derek from MIA and also the IAA.

But It got me thinking what if there was no clarification and the IAA decided
that in order to be affiliated with them you could not use Laser sights on
your Airsoft Equipment. What if they started telling retailers what
they could and could not sell them..

I have nothing against the IAA at all. I dont know any of the members
personally or in fact anyone thats on this board personally.

Over time there I have been gettting more and more of a negative vibe
from people in general about the IAA. Nothing specific but more of a "vibe"
I see hints of it from reading the threads where more and more people appear
to be wondering about it. With the Falling out between MIA and IAA
and also the incident of the IAA members at the Gathering who were IAA members but not Representing the IAA at that time it may have got blown all
out or proportion when reading it all here from a chair behind a computer
your hearing more and more as time goes on less postive things said about it.
Wondering is it smoke without fire? or is there no smoke without fire.

Now people may say why dont I goto an AGM or do something positive.
Being Honest I cold not be arsed. Im a lazy hyprocritical person
and would rather see others do all the hard work for me!
Airsoft it one of Many Interests to me and certainly does not control my entire life and its not my most important interest. Other than collecting things that Look like real guns to represent its real steel counterpart and being able to safely have a bit of fun and also being able if I choose to to partisapate in the sport I'm happy out.

Right now for me....I will stay a member and adhere to their guidelines
as for now they all make perfect sense. But for some reason that I
cant explain or put my finger on I keep getting some gut uneasyness feeling
about the future of the IAA.

~B

I would assume vtec means it's not going anywhere, as in, it's here to stay.

Alot of members here weren't around in the early days of this forum, before any meetings were held with the DoJ, there was still always the thought in the back of alot of people's minds that Airsoft could be so easily wiped out by one tiny little change to the Criminal Justice Act 2006, once the IAA met with the DoJ and were consulted on the new firearms legislation (which is to be drawn up soon) we were able to say that Airsoft will not be wiped out so easily. So next time people ask what has the IAA done for me recently? Well, they've secured the presence of Airsoft in this country for the foreseeable future, and you can still play it whenever you want without any licence or restrictions, so be grateful for that.

Bullets: I understand your reservations, why there is so much animosity towards the IAA on this forum I really dont know, alot of people developed the (incorrect) opinion that the IAA controls this forum and got pissed off and blamed them when threads about lasers were locked or other such nonsense.

Regarding the AGM in Dublin, we had the issue before, the main population centre is Dublin, the majority of members are located there and also it is the easiest place in Ireland to get to via public transport. Although there are alot of members outside of Dublin, primiarly in Cork and Galway, it does not make sense to move a meeting away from the majority to satisfy the minority.

The whole lasers thing always seemed to upset a lot of people, personally I was never bothered because I see them as being fairly pointless, but the reason for it was that in the early days of this forum, before the IAA existed, some of the real steel shooters expressed a concern that lasers which could be fitted to an Airsoft and hence, also real steel, would be deemed illegal, so it was added to the charter of this forum that discussion was not allowed due to questionable legality, this was to protect the owners of this website, not any vested interest from the IAA as so many people like to assume, however when the IAA came along, they adopted this position as to ignore it would be irresponsible after such concerns had be made clear.
During a meeting with the DoJ last year, the IAA committee were asked about lasers by the DoJ and explained this stance, at the time they did not give any indication either way but they agreed it was best to err on the side of caution. It took a long time to get the issue cleared up, and in my own opinion, this was likely becausee no one in the DoJ really knew either and no one wanted to say officially whether they were/werent illegal.

Quite often in the past, threads like this have been locked because they just turn into flame-wars or people bitching and moaning about things based on hearsay and paranoia, not sure whether my warning at the start helped or not, but everyone seems to be behaving for a change, so that's the reason this thread hasn't been locked like previous ones.

kdouglas wrote: »

I would assume vtec means it's not going anywhere, as in, it's here to stay.

Ok, i'd understand it different. maybe he can confirm.

kdouglas wrote: »

once the IAA met with the DoJ and were consulted on the new firearms legislation (which is to be drawn up soon) we were able to say that Airsoft will not be wiped out so easily. So next time people ask what has the IAA done for me recently? Well, they've secured the presence of Airsoft in this country for the foreseeable future, and you can still play it whenever you want without any licence or restrictions, so be grateful for that.

Maybe you can clarify that for the benefit of ppl who don't know the history. What exactly did the IAA do? Did they get the legislation changed or just meet with the DOJ to understand what changes the DOJ were making anyway?

If the former then the IAA are to be congratulated; if the latter then what exactly was their input?

kdouglas wrote: »

Regarding the AGM in Dublin, the majority of members are located there ... it does not make sense to move a meeting away from the majority to satisfy the minority.

I wonder is that still the case. It would be interessting to see some figures. I'd say (obviously it's a guess) that there are as many if not more airsofters outside of Dublin as there are in Dublin so in the long run it would be better for the association to look at AGMs outside of Dublin.

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Ok, i'd understand it different. maybe he can confirm.



Maybe you can clarify that for the benefit of ppl who don't know the history. What exactly did the IAA do? Did they get the legislation changed or just meet with the DOJ to understand what changes the DOJ were making anyway?

If the former then the IAA are to be congratulated; if the latter then what exactly was their input?

The original change (August 2006) was brought about by the Garda Firearms Bureau, I believe, as they were getting tired of being sent silly little things for testing, before then, even a kids potato gun, or a nerf gun, could be considered a firearm in this country (by legal definition).

The input the IAA had, was to meet with the DoJ, who knew very little about airsoft at the time, and give their input into any potential changes in the law, had this meeting not happened and the IAA not been present, then the DoJ very simply would have ignored airsoft in any future changes to the firearms legislation, potentially making it illegal once again.

MacAonghusa wrote: »

I wonder is that still the case. It would be interessting to see some figures. I'd say (obviously it's a guess) that there are as many if not more airsofters outside of Dublin as there are in Dublin so in the long run it would be better for the association to look at AGMs outside of Dublin.

http://irishairsoft.ie/map/

There ya go, you'll notice (even more so if you zoom in) that the highest concentration of player's is in Dublin, I'm sure there are probably more players outside of Dublin than there are in Dublin in total, but is still has the highest concentration.

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Maybe you can clarify that for the benefit of ppl who don't know the history. What exactly did the IAA do? Did they get the legislation changed or just meet with the DOJ to understand what changes the DOJ were making anyway?

My understanding is the committee met with the DoJ to help them clarify what airsoft is etc. and I think as KD said to help with consultation on the new Firearms act. Sounds like they have helped for the moment to ensure we don't go the way of the UK with licenses or bright pink AEG's.

As I say as I am not a member of the committee I cannot answer that for definite.

I wonder is that still the case. It would be interessting to see some figures. I'd say (obviously it's a guess) that there are as many if not more airsofters outside of Dublin as there are in Dublin so in the long run it would be better for the association to look at AGMs outside of Dublin.

Well there may be more airsofters but the vital statistic here is members, it comes back to that vicious circle. If you don't join nothing changes. As a Dublin based Airsofter I have no issues going to another location in the country for the AGM if thats where the numbers are, but then again I drive so its not a major issue for me (bar asking the Fiancée if I can have the time off!).

kdouglas wrote: »

The input the IAA had, was to meet with the DoJ, who knew very little about airsoft at the time, and give their input into any potential changes in the law, had this meeting not happened and the IAA not been present, then the DoJ very simply would have ignored airsoft in any future changes to the firearms legislation, potentially making it illegal once again.

Ok thanks. well done to those involved then.

kdouglas wrote: »

I'm sure there are probably more players outside of Dublin than there are in Dublin in total, but is still has the highest concentration.

First you said numbers, now concentration. It's a numbers game really, IMO, and therefore it would be good/advisable, IMO, to hold an AGM outside of the capital for the benefits of other members.

gandalf wrote: »

Well there may be more airsofters but the vital statistic here is members, it comes back to that vicious circle. If you don't join nothing changes.

Fine; but the impression given a number of times on threads (and from talking to people) is that an AGM outside of Dublin is not an option. To appeal to members further afield the IAA should be more proactive and arrange the next AGM outside of Dublin. That'd be my opinion anyway.

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Fine; but the impression given a number of times on threads (and from talking to people) is that an AGM outside of Dublin is not an option. To appeal to members further afield the IAA should be more proactive and arrange the next AGM outside of Dublin. That'd be my opinion anyway.

Ah I see you're a Kevin Costner man, "if you build it, they will come"

Its a chicken and egg situation, as I said I have no problem with it being outside Dublin at all. My god it may even be an excuse for a pissup

The thing is the AGM won't be a place to recruit as such, members need to be be members for a least a month if memory serves me right (I am open to correction here!).

I think the main thing is join and see if you can get the changes in place that you want. I am not sure if proxy voting will be allowed this time, I know it was discounted as last December was the first AGM.

Yea, but no matter where you change the location to, some people are going to be inconvenienced, so if the numbers show the majority are in Dublin, then it makes sense to have it there as you are going to inconvenience less people. If the majority of the membership was concentrated in Cork or Galway, or even Leitrim or something, then the meeting would be held there, but it's not.

In time, when membership numbers and regional sub-committee's are large enough, then I'd *personally* like to see smaller meetings taking place at a regional level, but at the moment, the organisation just isn't big enough.

gandalf wrote: »

Its a chicken and egg situation

I don't think it is, tbh.

gandalf wrote: »

I think the main thing is join and see if you can get the changes in place that you want. I am not sure if proxy voting will be allowed this time, I know it was discounted as last December was the first AGM.

Which is another thing; if they won't consider a location change they need to be flexible and allow proxy voting. If i'm not going to get a vote (assuming I can't travel which is often the case these days) why join? Maybe the assoc. needs to be regionalised. I might join if I knew my "local rep" was there to represent me. It's probably being suggested before but it's also worth considering.

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

The IAA have our addresses in their database. If any of the comitee members has a minute it would be nice if you could just list the number of members in each county. Give us an idea where everyone is.

Which will give locations of current members; are they not planning to recruit any new members?

My point is essentially that any good organisation needs to be planning for change (growth) not reacting to it. Proactive not reactive.

vtec wrote: »

The impression you give from the above post though, is that the retailer is "knowingly" selling hot AEGs, theres so many things that can effect the muzzle velocity/energy of an AEG and a reading on monday isnt necessarily the same as it will be on tuesday, i had a similar situation in gtac with my M4 chrono'ing at 340, did it again the next day and it was 327fps, thats a fairly decent drop.
theres always the chance that some guns will get through the net though, and the retailers are obliged to take the gun back and correct the problem, im assuming you/the owner never told the retailer about the fact that the gun was hot? otherwise they would most likely have sorted it themselves. you also void the warrentys on those guns by doing it yourself instead of just letting the retailer know what the story was.

using the statment that "irish retailers are selling hot guns"! is getting really old now i must say, and im not just saying that about your post, im talking above previous threads similar to this one. out of all the guns sold its probably like 3% that turn out to be over the limit and these few examples are used in statments like the above, which then results in messy out of proportion arguements on here.,

if you read the post you will see that i said that it was human error and no where did i state that there was retailers knowlingly selling hot guns, so without this turing into a flame war here is what im talking about:



does that look like a fluctuation in power?
that was the highest reading, the lowest was 420.
the other gun was averaging 360-370.
i have spoke to both lads and neither contacted the retailer due to their dissatisfaction with service, the extent of which i cant speak intellegently on.
it was far simpler matter for me to fix the problem than dick around with posting and waiting on the gun or making the 2 hour car journey.

again i am not staing that any retailers are intentionally selling hot equiptment, as it is in no ones best interests to do so and im sure all of them have worked far to hard to throw it all away.

But i do take strong exception to the statement that buying from an IAA affiliate will guarantee you a legal airsodt device.

that is all i have to say on the matter.

Frank the Manc wrote: »

if you read the post you will see that i said that it was human error and no where did i state that there was retailers knowlingly selling hot guns, so without this turing into a flame war here is what im talking about:



does that look like a fluctuation in power?
that was the highest reading, the lowest was 420.
the other gun was averaging 360-370.
i have spoke to both lads and neither contacted the retailer due to their dissatisfaction with service, the extent of which i cant speak intellegently on.
it was far simpler matter for me to fix the problem than dick around with posting and waiting on the gun or making the 2 hour car journey.

again i am not staing that any retailers are intentionally selling hot equiptment, as it is in no ones best interests to do so and im sure all of them have worked far to hard to throw it all away.

But i do take strong exception to the statement that buying from an IAA affiliate will guarantee you a legal airsodt device.

that is all i have to say on the matter.

Buying from an IAA affiliated retailer should ensure that you will get a legal airsoft device, however mistakes can happen and an AEG may slip through without being tested for whatever reason, however had they contacted the IAA or the retailer themselves, then this would have been noted. If the IAA were to receive a complaint regarding a retailer, they would contact that retailer in the hopes to ensure it does not happen again, if however they received multiple complaints about a retailer on a regular basis, then they could do more.

It's not uncommong for one batch of an AEG to chrono under 1J and another batch of the same brand and model to be over, especially with the chinese clone brands, reporting this to a retailer allows them to be extra vigilent with that particular make/model.

Your point is moot anyway, since nobody actually bothered to inform the retailer or the IAA about the incident.

Buying from an IAA affiliated retailer should ensure that you will get a legal airsoft device, however mistakes can happen and an AEG may slip through without being tested for whatever reason, however had they contacted the IAA or the retailer themselves, then this would have been noted. If the IAA were to receive a complaint regarding a retailer, they would contact that retailer in the hopes to ensure it does not happen again, if however they received multiple complaints about a retailer on a regular basis, then they could do more.

It's not uncommong for one batch of an AEG to chrono under 1J and another batch of the same brand and model to be over, especially with the chinese clone brands, reporting this to a retailer allows them to be extra vigilent with that particular make/model.

I do believe this is getting off topic but i will reply as i believe it important, i agree with your post kdouglas but i do not agree that 'because one batch is ok we will not test other' is not a valid defense. I have a large number of documented aegs brought from Irish retailers coming in over 400fps this are stock clone items, know this problem was brought up thought are rep and as far as im aware dealt with, this was done not on boards but as it should be between the retailer and the iaa with not bitching and crap like that over the forums just because you do not hear about things does not mean nothing is going on.

I did post in this same thread this same response but i will repeat it, for the system to work we all have to take part if something come up go to the iaa and email them, if nothing happens after that or you do not get a response you can complain but until then you can not, you get as much out as you put in.

The system only works with your input and feedback

Puding wrote: »

I do believe this is getting off topic but i will reply as i believe it important, i agree with your post kdouglas but i do not agree that 'because one batch is ok we will not test other' is not a valid defense. I have a large number of documented aegs brought from Irish retailers coming in over 400fps this are stock clone items, know this problem was brought up thought are rep and as far as im aware dealt with, this was done not on boards but as it should be between the retailer and the iaa with not bitching and crap like that over the forums just because you do not hear about things does not mean nothing is going on.

I did post in this same thread this same response but i will repeat it, for the system to work we all have to take part if something come up go to the iaa and email them, if nothing happens after that or you do not get a response you can complain but until then you can not, you get as much out as you put in.

The system only works with your input and feedback

Well, yes, that's true of most brands, especially the chinese clones, but for brands like TM and up until recently, Classic Army, you could be reasonably guaranteed that their guns would be under 1 Joule.

Games were still being poorly run
People were still confused about the rules.
Marshalling was not unifed or coordinated.
Needless injuries and accidents were occuring as a result of lack of cohesive and comprehensive unserstaing of the rules, saftey etc.

Games being poorly run is not the responsibility of the IAA.
Cant do anything about people being confused either, this is also the sites responsibility.
The IAA appointed a marshalling committee to set up guidelines for this, and the main IAA committee had no input in to this so as to remain impartial, to date, the report from the marshalling sub-committee still has not been received.
Again, needless injuries et al...? I'm unaware of any major injuries other than the occasional trip and fall by any player, but how is this the business of the IAA? It's not, they can set out guidelines for sites, but it is up to the sites to ensure they are put in to place.

You're blaming a lot of stuff on the IAA which has nothing to do with them.


As gandalf said, I've no idea what obstacles you came up against, but accusations of the IAA committee having a personal agenda or vested interested are, frankly, rubbish, unless you can back this up with proof of which committee members and how they are doing so, then dont bother mentioning it again.