Italy tackles Roma Gypsies.

Sam Vimes · 20-05-2008 10:04AM

DesF wrote: »

OK.

I apologise for my generalisation.

Now, will you address the issues, instead of being a pedantic bleeding heart.

i'm not being pedantic. making a sweeping generalisation about roma's is discrimination. you may be right (and from hundreds of personal experiences i believe you are) but until there is hard evidence to support it all we have is a feeling that most of them are like that and it's unfair to tar them all with the same brush

in our society you can't pick on one group of people. you can only judge them on an individual basis. so what we should do is remove foreign nationals from our country that have commited crimes, rather than letting them away with it as currently happens. if you and me are right, that will remove 95% of roma gypsies in a few months without any suggestion of racism

but if you just put every roma gypsy on a boat whether they've been proven to commit a crime or not, you are discriminating

_blank_ · 20-05-2008 10:06AM

DesF wrote: »

Bleeding hearts, answer this.

Should Ireland allow every Tom, Dick and Harry from all corners of the globe into the country, and then allow them to live in the filth and frankly animal conditions that existed on the M50 Roundabout?

DesF wrote: »

Also the fact that Begging was basically made legal recently, it gave these societal leeches a carte blanche.

Bleeding Hearts answer this.

Is it ok for these people to shove their young kids in the faces of passing pedestrians and motorists while begging?

DesF wrote: »

All you are doing is bandying around the racist tag.

Why shouldn't we deport them, why should we put up with the ones who are acting outside the law?

DesF wrote: »

Now, why the fúck are you defending them? The ones that sponge, leech and are general parasite.

The ones that beg with children.

SDooM wrote: »

Here is the offending article.

Which I've already apologised for, so here we go again. Round and round in circles, at the behest of the bleeding hearts.

It's tiresome.

togster · 20-05-2008 10:06AM

javaboy wrote: »

Unfortunately a reasonable person can make that statement but along the way towards some extremely liberal people's ears, it becomes

"I believe that every foreign national who is not contributing to society and is caught breaking the law should be fecked back to whence they came".

and that pretty much makes any discussion on the topic impossible. I consider myself a moderate liberal as Elvis said above but I do believe any foreign national who is not making an attempt to contribute or who is not a genuine asylum seeker should be sent packing. But I am very careful about how I say that and who I say it to because it will as often as not be picked up as racism.

Thats not racism.

+1 from me. It's when people make retarded general statements about bleeding hearts and ALL people of that society are bad people, that's what pisses me off, but really it's there own problem.

Maximilian · 20-05-2008 10:07AM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

i think you're missing the point here. they are a sub group of people are you are judging this entire group or a vast majority of it. this is prejudice. if you said "everyone over 50 is useless" it would be the same. it's discrimination.

however, if you had statistics that said that 95% of roma gypsies are involved in crime it would no longer be prejudice. what you have is anecdotal evidence.

This really is arse. Call it prejudice if you like but such things don't develop in a vacuum. Particularly where intelligent, educated people are involved.

People's opinions on Romas are primarily formed from their own experiences, not from the experiences of others. So common and widespread are these experiences, that it becomes reasonable to conclude that it applies to many more Roma. When you then meet many other people who share the same view from similar experience, it becomes more reasonable to conclude it applies to a majority of Roma.

If it were the case that assuming the vast majority of Roma are beggers etc.
is actually wrong, by all means bring forth the evidence to show you.

_blank_ · 20-05-2008 10:07AM

chopperbyrne wrote: »

It's ethnic criticism Bill!

Man, that is such a brilliant quote.

Thanks a lot for that interjection of humour.

Sam Vimes · 20-05-2008 10:07AM

Degsy wrote: »

Lets just say if every single red-headed woman you ever say had big tits,would you then say that in your opinion all red-headed women had big tits?

no, i wouldn't say that. that would be a generalisation

Degsy wrote: »

What would you say if somebody asked you to prove it??

assuming i had said that, i would do a census of red heads and find out if it was true.

i don't really understand your point here

togster · 20-05-2008 10:10AM

DesF wrote: »

OK.

Now, will you address the issues, instead of being a pedantic bleeding heart.

Anyone who is a foreign national and is not contributing in a constrctive manner should be deported, yes. However i do think that they should be given a chance to contribute. Look at the polish and the lithuanians etc etc.

See Des not ALL of us "do-gooders" are bleeding heart softies. Generalistion is a weak trait in a person tbh.

Doctor DooM · 20-05-2008 10:10AM

DesF wrote: »

Which I've already apologised for, so here we go again. Round and round in circles, at the behest of the bleeding hearts.

It's tiresome.

I've answered many times:

If someone commits a crime, feck them out.

Don't feck them out because of nationality, so we actually agree.

I believe the time has come to say "Yore ma".

stevoman · 20-05-2008 10:10AM

Maximilian wrote: »

What the hell do they need work permits for?

wait for it..............

so they have to work:eek:

all the stars · 20-05-2008 10:11AM

Well,
Glad to see something being done anyway -

1) I know a Romanian lady, she is horrified by the Roma's living locally when they try talking to her... she is mortified that people will think she is like them or indeed that they will think she is like them.

2) they bug the sh*te outta me, selling flippin sparkly cowboy hats... where i live aint exactly Dublin... also, quite a few of the women are involved in prostitution - i happen to know this as fact (unfortunately)... and they do this with Husband & kid in the house!! :eek:

3) how can people be allowed into a country when they are destitute? or have no income, savings,house, job lined or and all that kinda thing (this is a question - i really dont understand )

_blank_ · 20-05-2008 10:13AM

togster wrote: »

However i do think that they should be given a chance to contribute.

How much of a chance?

A week? A month? A year?

javaboy · 20-05-2008 10:13AM

DesF wrote: »

Man, that is such a brilliant quote.

Thanks a lot for that interjection of humour.

"The likes of Roma couldn`t beat a top English or Spanish side"

Eamon's been guilty of a bit of ethnic criticism himself though

Degsy · 20-05-2008 10:14AM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

no, i wouldn't say that. that would be a generalisation

assuming i had said that, i would do a census of red heads and find out if it was true.

i don't really understand your point here

No you wouldnt "do a census"..you'd generalise to the tune that all red-headed women had big tits based on your experience.If everybody else said the same you'd come to the conclusion that you were right to generalise.If everybody's experiences of roma are negative then it no longer behoves people to prove the positive,it becomes accepted that there are no positive aspects to thier behaviour.You see?

Maximilian · 20-05-2008 10:16AM

stevoman wrote: »

wait for it..............

so they have to work:eek:

That's the point of a work permit, alas.

togster · 20-05-2008 10:17AM

DesF wrote: »

How much of a chance?

A week? A month? A year?

Depends on a multitude of factors.

Maximilian · 20-05-2008 10:19AM

Degsy wrote: »

No you wouldnt "do a census"..you'd generalise to the tune that all red-headed women had big tits based on your experience.If everybody else said the same you'd come to the conclusion that you were right to generalise.If everybody's experiences of roma are negative then it no longer behoves people to prove the positive,it becomes accepted that there are no positive aspects to thier behaviour.You see?

Also, all red headed women have in fact small breasts.

stevoman · 20-05-2008 10:19AM

all the stars wrote: »

Well,
Glad to see something being done anyway -

1) I know a Romanian lady, she is horrified by the Roma's living locally when they try talking to her... she is mortified that people will think she is like them or indeed that they will think she is like them.

+1

I work with a lady from romania and she is an absolute lady so she is!

Roma are a different race. If you look back to WW2 hitler exterminated laods of them as they were an ethnic minority. The romanian goverment sided with hitler!

I dont think its fair to tar people from romania with the ROMA brush.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_people

javaboy · 20-05-2008 10:21AM

stevoman wrote: »

+1

I work with a lady from romania and she is an absolute lady so she is!

Roma are a different race. If you look back to WW2 hitler exterminated laods of them as they were an ethnic minority. The romanian goverment sided with hitler!

Uh-oh.

Sam Vimes · 20-05-2008 10:22AM

Degsy wrote: »

No you wouldnt "do a census"..you'd generalise to the tune that all red-headed women had big tits based on your experience.If everybody else said the same you'd come to the conclusion that you were right to generalise.If everybody's experiences of roma are negative then it no longer behoves people to prove the positive,it becomes accepted that there are no positive aspects to thier behaviour.You see?

No I don’t see. That’s called discrimination. Think of it this way. You only ever see the thieves and beggars and general scum. Maybe there are thousands of roma who work hard and just live their lives like normal people but they walk past you in the street and you never even notice them because they’re not in your face.

And that is why anecdotal evidence should not be considered when dealing with a group of people

every roma you've had experience of has been scum but that's only because you haven't had any experiences with the good ones. until you've met every single roma and determined that they are all thieves, you are discriminating and you are wrong to do so

Gone West · 20-05-2008 10:24AM

Anyways, Goodwins law, I'm off. Enjoy the thread guys.

Dudess, you're doing a stand up job with AH, keep it up

Max, I doubt sense can be beaten into extremists on either side of anything!

Doctor DooM · 20-05-2008 10:25AM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

No I don’t see. That’s called discrimination. Think of it this way. You only ever see the thieves and beggars and general scum. Maybe there are thousands of roma who work hard and just live their lives like normal people but they walk past you in the street and you never even notice them because they’re not in your face.

And that is why anecdotal evidence should not be considered when dealing with a group of people

every roma you've had experience of has been scum but that's only because you haven't had any experiences with the good ones. until you've met every single roma and determined that they are all theives, you are discriminating and you are wrong to do so

Hit the nail on the head there.

justsomebloke · 20-05-2008 10:27AM

all the stars wrote: »

1) I know a Romanian lady, she is horrified by the Roma's living locally when they try talking to her...

just remember there is a difference between Romanians and Romas.

The few Romanians that I have meet put me to shame with how nice they actually are

Every Roma I have come across on the other hand as been a sponge on society and don't deserve to be here. That said I would lump every Irish sponger in with this aswell however as they are technically our problem there is very little we can do about them

all the stars · 20-05-2008 10:32AM

jsb wrote: »

just remember there is a difference between Romanians and Romas.

The few Romanians that I have meet put me to shame with how nice they actually are

oh i know there is a differance, was just saying how mad it is that even the romanian lady is mortified if they try talking to her - she doesn't want to even speak to them! She kinda looks down on them as she is very qualified at what she does and works very hard..

Maximilian · 20-05-2008 10:33AM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

No I don’t see. That’s called discrimination. Think of it this way. You only ever see the thieves and beggars and general scum. Maybe there are thousands of roma who work hard and just live their lives like normal people but they walk past you in the street and you never even notice them because they’re not in your face.

And that is why anecdotal evidence should not be considered when dealing with a group of people

every roma you've had experience of has been scum but that's only because you haven't had any experiences with the good ones. until you've met every single roma and determined that they are all theives, you are discriminating and you are wrong to do so

That would be a fine argument if it were true as regards Roma. The fact is peoples assumptions about the minority do hold as against the majority also.

Hold up against anybody else's experiences. Against almost anything you ever read about them in a newspaper or saw on the news. etc.

As generalisations go, its a pretty accurate one but nobody is saying that it applies to 100% of them and is anything other than a generalisation, short hand to assist in the discussion of a larger issue. One that seems to have drifted into an OT discussion of who's a racist/liberal/nazi/inductive reasoner/roma/bleedin heart/large-chested red-head/etc.

The argument isn't about chucking out all the Romas, its about chucking out all the Roma beggers, thieves & leetches. Chuck out any other ones too. Romas who have something to contribute should stay of course.

To anyone who says otherwise: why do you want to have such people in this country? You are the people that need to defend your views, not the other way around?

boneless · 20-05-2008 10:35AM

Stormfront Forum???

tororosso · 20-05-2008 10:35AM

Completely agree. I have no time for them (the collective group of non contributing people). Have had a fair few experiences with them and seen them in action; obviously not all roma gypsies are the same but they (the majority of them in operation here) have earned a reputation from their own actions simple as that...I've been to Italy a fair few times and the number of roma gyspies is significantly higher over there. About a year ago the issue was high on the News agendas because a woman was raped and brutally murdered by a man near a railway station. Anyway, the man happened to be a roma gyspy and as the news story grew they began to document the case of roma gypsies squatting in hidden locations around the city of Rome. The programme I saw at the time was fascinating as the news crew followed the Carabineri around as they uncovered and dismantled illegal settlements..you wouldn't believe the amount of huts and sheds they had constructed under bridges and along the Tiber....the problem the police faced was that they could only dismantle and remove the building materials (scrap/wood etc) and the roma would go to another location and start again...the reality is that the majority of italians don't want underworld style settlements developing in their cities.

togster wrote: »

Anyone who is a foreign national and is not contributing in a constrctive manner should be deported, yes. However i do think that they should be given a chance to contribute. Look at the polish and the lithuanians etc etc.

Dudess · 20-05-2008 10:38AM

boneless wrote: »

Stormfront Forum???

I must admit I don't fully understand the above remark. However I'm gonna assume it's a dig at those who object to the anti social practices endemic within considerable pockets of Roma immigrant society. If so, what utter crap. And quite insulting actually. Again, this is a perfect example of mindless bigotry coming from the left - and I'm left-wing and regularly accused of being "PC" etc. Read the posts properly.

Doctor DooM · 20-05-2008 10:42AM

Dudess wrote: »

I must admit I don't fully understand the above remark. However I'm gonna assume it's a dig at those who object to the anti social practices endemic within considerable pockets of Roma immigrant society. If so, what utter crap. And quite insulting actually. Again, this is a perfect example of mindless bigotry coming from the left - and I'm left-wing and regularly accused of being "PC" etc. Read the posts properly.

...bleeding heart...

Sam Vimes · 20-05-2008 10:44AM

Maximilian wrote: »

Hold up against anybody else's experiences. Against almost anything you ever read about them in a newspaper or saw on the news. etc.

You see that’s exactly the point. People who work 9-5 to feed their kids don’t make the papers or the news.

Maximilian wrote: »

As generalisations go, its a pretty accurate one but nobody is saying that it applies to 100% of them and is anything other than a generalisation, short hand to assist in the discussion of a larger issue. One that seems to have drifted into an OT discussion of who's a racist/liberal/nazi/inductive reasoner/roma/bleedin heart/large-chested red-head/etc.

You only have an assumption that it’s an accurate one. You can say that it’s the majority and not all of them are like that etc but the effect is the same as if you said it was 100%.unless you have named exceptions you are tarring them all with the same brush.

Maximilian wrote: »

The argument isn't about chucking our all the Romas, its about chucking out all the Roma beggers, thieves & leetches.

Let’s rephrase that: The argument isn't about chucking our all the Romas, its about chucking out all the beggers, thieves & leetches.

Why pick on romas? Why even mention romas if all you have a problem with is thieves?

People should be judged on an individual basis. All foreign national criminals should be deported. If that results in the removal of 95% of romas from our country then so be it. Nothing racist has occured

justsomebloke · 20-05-2008 10:46AM

Dudess wrote: »

I must admit I don't fully understand the above remark. However I'm gonna assume it's a dig at those who object to the anti social practices endemic within considerable pockets of Roma immigrant society. If so, what utter crap. And quite insulting actually. Again, this is a perfect example of mindless bigotry coming from the left - and I'm left-wing and regularly accused of being "PC" etc. Read the posts properly.

feckin feminist

Italy tackles Roma Gypsies.

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