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Abortion

13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭allabouteve


    Pimps, scumbags and abusers? The above are reasons why men shouldn't be legally able to override a woman's decision, nobody thinks all men are scum, and of course their wishes should be considered. Some men will exploit the law for their own ends. So will some women. The other suggestion about men being allowed to sign away all responsibilities and rights - I honestly don't see how that can work, it legally makes the woman the sole bearer of the burden of crisis pregnancy. No man should be forced to play a parental role, but 50/50 financial responsibility seems reasonable. I also think for the sake of the childs sense of identity that he/she has a right to know their parentage. A conflict I know, but none of this stuff is cut and dried.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 420 ✭✭KrazeeEyezKilla


    Dudess wrote: »
    There is one relatively well known woman who claims to treat having an abortion as, in her own words, "getting her tonsils out" and that is Julie Burchill - sh1t-stirring, sensationalist columnist. I imagine her words must hurt some people terribly.

    If it's possible to abort a middle aged person she'd be top of the list.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,044 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    http://fora.tv/2008/04/08/Amy_Richards_and_Dan_Savage_on_Feminism_and_Abortion

    Pro choice is not pro abortion it is supportive of many choices which includes having the child and keeping it or giving it up for adoption as well as abortion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭Bluebells


    I am very pro choice. I think every women should have the option to have an safe abortion, regardless of their situation. I believe the father should have no say in the termination, as this would not be giving the women the right to choose. The reasons I feel the mothers choice overrides the fathers is as follows:

    1) Its her body. Pregnany is not just like having a growth you want rid of. Feelings develop and change the more it grows, due to physical closeness, hormones etc. It dominates your body and mind for nine months and then physically comes out of you. This is something a father, unfortunitly can never experiance. If there was a way of magicly removing the pregancy to more mutual ground, at the moment the mother found out about it, then I think the fathers input would be important.

    2) Social views. Women are seen as the primary care givers for children and have been for a very long time. This would pressure and guilt the mother to be a large part of the childs life, even if they knew from the beginning thats not what they wanted for their own lifes at that time. A father has more of an option to be or not to be involved in the childs life if he changes his mind, and to what extent. If social views changed drastically, then I would say that the fathers input would be important.

    3) Mental health. If a women is mentally unstable / depressed / suicidle, being refused a termination could make them worse and put her life in danger and inturn the pregnancy would be at risk anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Bluebells wrote: »
    I believe the father should have no say in the termination, as this would not be giving the women the right to choose.

    But it is okay to not give the man any right to choose?

    I read your points and believe they are pretty valid but come on.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ztoical


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Pro choice is not pro abortion it is supportive of many choices which includes having the child and keeping it or giving it up for adoption as well as abortion.


    Very well put. About 8 years ago my best friend who was also my flat mate at that time found out she was pregnant and pretty much freaked out. I was the only person who knew for awhile and she started doing silly things like reading online if she drank a mixture of X and Y she'd cause a miscarriage. I was very worried she was going to harm herself doing something stupid so sat her down and went through all her options including abortion. I told her I would [a]help her pay for it never tell anyone and [c] never judge her for it but I would not make the choice for her - she needed to decide what she wanted and if she choose abortion she would have to ring up and make the appointment. It had to be her choice.

    She went away for a few hours and came home and said she was going to keep the baby. To me that is what it means to be pro-choice - to have all the options laid out clearly with all the correct information and making an informed choice based on your needs and belief/faith. I know for a fact had the roles been reversed I would have had the abortion. I don't think pro-choice means abortions for all and I certainly don't like the way a small minority of women in countries like the UK treat it as a forum of birthcontrol but I do think women should have all the options given to them.

    I am pro-choice and do think if it can't live outside of my body on its own then its my choice and mine alone to abort or not. Thats my opinion and my feelings about my body. if we're going to start about the fathers rights during pregnancy where does it start and end? If he gets a say in wither its aborted or not does he also get a say in the mothers diet during pregnacy? what doctor she sees? where she goes, who she sees? If she wants a C section can he demand natural child birth - Can he demanded she be milked like a cow cus he wants his child to have breast milk when she wants formula? Where do you draw the line, how much control of her body does a woman give up?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    If the man can't see his sperm or product of it, then he has no control over it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    WindSock wrote: »
    If the man can't see his sperm or product of it, then he has no control over it.

    Sorry but i am missing the point here. Would you mind expanding on this a little bit?:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    Ah I don't know. I was just thinking that once he blows his load then it's not his anymore to worry about. Then I was thinking if he wants it back, he can get whats there of the foetus and grow the rest of it in a special space age container.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    WindSock wrote: »
    Ah I don't know. I was just thinking that once he blows his load then it's not his anymore to worry about. Then I was thinking if he wants it back, he can get whats there of the foetus and grow the rest of it in a special space age container.

    Except when the bills need paying right?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,129 ✭✭✭Nightwish


    Abortions for all! Seriously though I do believe in a womans right to decide. This country is incredibly backwards in this regard.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    Dragan wrote: »
    Except when the bills need paying right?

    No, that would be very selfish. What I mean is once a guy has had sex and said goodbye to his sperms, he doesn't expect them to materialise again. The only person that knows about what happens next is the woman he has deposited them into. It's up to her to decide what happens with what's inside her. If she decides not to go with it, then she shouldn't tell him.

    I think this is the one case where I will say...ignorance is bliss.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭Bluebells


    ztoical I think your spot on. Where do you draw the line? I dont think it is feasible to give fathers an equal legal right to a 'baby' while in the uterus, at this stage anyway. In an ideal world both parties would have equal say, but things arnt equal (for reasons I explained above, imo).

    Personally if I were in a commited relationship, older, financially stable and planning on having children at some stage of my life and I had an unplanned pregnancy that I wasnt 100% sure on, I'd definately consult my partner and see what they wanted. Also, if I decided to have the child and they did not want any part of it, I would not persue them for money unless I really really needed it to raise the child.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    If it's possible to abort a middle aged person she'd be top of the list.
    :D Yeah, she comes across as an utterly phenomenal ****.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Hmmm, tricky.

    I am pro-choice with regards to abortion generally but as to whether men should get a say or not, I'm a bit torn. Is it fair that women can go ahead with a pregnancy that their partner doesn't want & have a right to maintenance but have no say if she wants to abort & they don't? Not really. Do I think men's rights to their unborn children should be greater than the woman who carries the child? No.

    Would I think differently of anyone I knew who had an abortion? No, certainly not. If a woman decides she doesn't want or can't look after a child then that is a momentous decision, whatever solution is reached I think she needs lots of support & understanding. I don't know any women who would have an abortion or give up a child for adoption without agonising over their decision.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,902 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    ztoical wrote: »
    Very well put. About 8 years ago my best friend who was also my flat mate at that time found out she was pregnant and pretty much freaked out. I was the only person who knew for awhile and she started doing silly things like reading online if she drank a mixture of X and Y she'd cause a miscarriage. I was very worried she was going to harm herself doing something stupid so sat her down and went through all her options including abortion. I told her I would [a]help her pay for it never tell anyone and [c] never judge her for it but I would not make the choice for her - she needed to decide what she wanted and if she choose abortion she would have to ring up and make the appointment. It had to be her choice.
    Really sweet story. I don't think you could have handled that any better :)

    I am a pro-choice that gets pissed off with pro-lifers. IMO, the general pro-lifer attitude is essentially their way of forcing their views and opinions on everyone else by prioritising principles over what is right for the father, the mother and the baby. Abortion is a complicated issue, its really not black and white.

    Personally, if the situation ever arouse where I knocked up a girl (fat chance of it happening these days :pac:) I would prefer to keep it and raise it, as simply aborting it as the first option is just irresponsible (IMO). However, looking at my situation, abortion would probably be a better option, simply because I'm not finished college yet and am up to my ears in debts, and it would another year or two before I could properly support another person. However, if I was in a long-term relationship and was somewhat financially stable, I reckon I would opt to keep it. In all these scenarios, I'm not sure why, but I would let the woman make the final decision.



    On a side note, I saw a poster somewhere around UL for some pro-life conference/talk that was taking place. Half the poster was a picture/caption of one of the pro-life speakers, which read "I was conceived through rape - did I deserve to be murdered?". This kind of sensationalist slogan/headline is mainly what pisses me off about pro-lifers


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,555 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Im pro choice.

    End of story.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    I think the hypocrisy of Ireland's current laws on abortion are highlighted every time a case comes up that the legislators never envisaged.

    So you have a pregnant minor who is raped and another minor in the care of the HSE but whose baby will not survive being traumatically dragged through the Irish courts because of laws dreamt up by old men who are totally out of touch.

    It ends up being a case of 'No abortion!'...oh, er...except in that case..oh, and..uh..in that case as well. Just legalise abortion and be done with it!

    Pro-lifers totally ignore the rights of the fully grown adult in favour of an embryo. I hate to say it but I don't think there would be such strict abortion laws if it were men getting pregnant. It's partly just another means of controlling women's bodies and fertility IMO. I mean we only got contraception a few years ago. Why? Because men who wear dresses and have zero understanding of family or sexual issues say so - this world is so messed up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,658 ✭✭✭✭The Sweeper


    On the pro-choice thing and what it means - semantics notwithstanding, I think that in Ireland 'pro-choice' essentially means 'pro-abortion' and the concept of having the child and rearing it, or having it and putting it up for adoption both fall under 'pro-life'. In a country where abortion is legal, pro-choice has more chance of meaning 'You have the right to make your own choice without judgement or criticism and with the full support available to you'.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 102 ✭✭Pye


    Women using abortion as a means of contraception? Similar to the old if we make emergency contraception more easily availible they will all be using that .... No woman and i do mean NO woman thinks screw the condom I can just have an abortion. This view is incredibly disrespectiful of women. yes there are women who end up having multple aboritons but try to remember that even the best of contraceptives have a 1-2% failure rate. Over the course of her lifetime a woman could expect to have multiple pregnancies even if they always use contraceptives. and anyway the majority of women seeking terminatiosn were using a contraceptive at the time that failed.


    And we should all try to remember that in the contaceptive game it takes two to tango.... for every woman who takes a risk and ends up pregnant there is a man who did the same ... they just dont end up in the stirrups afterwards. so to say that "women" Are using it as a form of contraception is a little bit disengenuous :)

    +1


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    taconnol wrote: »
    Pro-lifers totally ignore the rights of the fully grown adult in favour of an embryo. I hate to say it but I don't think there would be such strict abortion laws if it were men getting pregnant. It's partly just another means of controlling women's bodies and fertility IMO. I mean we only got contraception a few years ago. Why? Because men who wear dresses and have zero understanding of family or sexual issues say so - this world is so messed up.

    If men were the ones bearing children the entirety of human history would be a very different thing. No real point in mentioning that as a premise in my opinion.

    As a man i don't really give a crap what a woman choose's to do with her body unless that woman is a part of my life and she is taking action that is doing her harm ( as i hope any woman in my life would care about me ), it would just to be nice to think i have a say in any such incident that might occur, or at the very least have some kind of way of deciding it's impact upon MY life instead of that choice being made for me.

    However, history has shown me two things. That this will never happen and in the minds of many i will be guilty for the sins of others. Awesome.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    On the pro-choice thing and what it means - semantics notwithstanding, I think that in Ireland 'pro-choice' essentially means 'pro-abortion' and the concept of having the child and rearing it, or having it and putting it up for adoption both fall under 'pro-life'. In a country where abortion is legal, pro-choice has more chance of meaning 'You have the right to make your own choice without judgement or criticism and with the full support available to you'.
    Yeah, I'm sorry, but if you don't object to abortion (even on a limited basis) you're pro abortion. You can be pro lots of other options too, but if one of those options is abortion, then you're pro abortion.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Dragan, I wasn't hating on all men. I think men should have a say in any decision surrounding abortion.

    At the same time you can't deny that down through the years, women's fertility and sexuality have been controlled by men. You say that you would like to have a choice about how something impacts on your life. Up until very recently women in Ireland didn't have that. I was just pointing out the irony that we assigned the role of making important decision about sexuality and family issues to people who were excluded from having any experience of these matters.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Dudess wrote: »
    Yeah, I'm sorry, but if you don't object to abortion (even on a limited basis) you're pro abortion. You can be pro lots of other options too, but if one of those options is abortion, then you're pro abortion.

    I don't really agree with the "if your not against it, your for it" sentiments tbh...abortion isn't something I like, it's not something I would or could do but I don't think I have the right to make that decision for every other woman who faces the choice - and in a country where thousands sail over to the UK every year to have an abortion, it certainly is a recognised choice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭Mrs_Doyle


    When I was younger I was incredibly anti-abortion, but I was also very narrow minded and uneducated on the topic.
    Now, I don't think abortion would be something I would consider, however, I completely understand that for some women, and some couples, it might be the best move for them, and they don't deserve to be judged for that.

    I would love to say that I believe the decision to have an abortion should be made by both parties involved, but tbh, I'm just not that PC.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭NextSteps


    On the pro-choice thing and what it means - semantics notwithstanding, I think that in Ireland 'pro-choice' essentially means 'pro-abortion' and the concept of having the child and rearing it, or having it and putting it up for adoption both fall under 'pro-life'. In a country where abortion is legal, pro-choice has more chance of meaning 'You have the right to make your own choice without judgement or criticism and with the full support available to you'.

    Totally disagree. What could 'pro-abortion' mean? That all pregnancies must be aborted? That abortion should be promoted, like drinking milk or eating an egg a day? That abortion is the contraceptive of choice, or that we want the human race to die out through lack of reproduction? I don't think any of those are common views. Pro-choice is what it says on the tin - you get pregnant, you have choices. Abortion is one of these choices.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    But "pro" simply means in favour of. It's not necessarily as black and white as those analogies you've used. You might be in favour of it only to a very limited degree, but you're still in favour of it. I think pro choice is just a way of tiptoe-ing around actually using the term "pro abortion" because it's not a nice term.

    I think abortion should be the absolute last resort, and avoided if at all possible, but I'm still pro abortion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ztoical


    Of course people use pro-choice cus its a nice term. Pro-choice sounds nice as the reverse is anti-choice and the reverse to pro-life is pro-death, its all political play on words. I think pro-life is a stupid term as it forces a religious view point on people wither they follow it or not.

    I am pro-choice not pro-abortion - I think that a woman should be given ALL the options with correct information and have to make the choice themselves. I do think abortion should be legal in this country not because I support it but because the fact is we are living in a country with blinkers on - we're sending women to other countries to "deal with the problem" then sitting all high and mighty going "well we don't allow abortion in this country aren't we great"

    Bring abortion in - if you don't agree with it then bloody well don't have one simple as that. If you don't want your tax money paying for it then tell the government that - groups in the US who don't want their taxes paying for the war do just that and government makes sure their taxes aren't used for that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭all the stars


    Peared wrote: »
    Inspired by the thread in AH.

    Im posting this here because I see it as a womens issue. Some may disagree, which is the reason for my post.

    DO you view abortion as a womans decision to make or do you think the man should get a say? If so, how much of a say? Should it be equal, should he have the right to overrule if an abortion is planned?

    I do think the man should have a say- it is going to be his child also, but em, i dont know how much as ultimately the woman has to carry the child for 9 months... realy every situation is differant.

    i dont have any kids myself so cant give an answer too insightfully, but, i do think that the dad should absolutely be part of the decision..


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    taconnol wrote: »
    Dragan, I wasn't hating on all men. I think men should have a say in any decision surrounding abortion.

    At the same time you can't deny that down through the years, women's fertility and sexuality have been controlled by men. You say that you would like to have a choice about how something impacts on your life. Up until very recently women in Ireland didn't have that. I was just pointing out the irony that we assigned the role of making important decision about sexuality and family issues to people who were excluded from having any experience of these matters.

    Ah i know that Taco, i was just on a bit of a downer yesterday.

    Don't forget that EVERYONE in the country was directed and led by people with absolutely no understanding of family matters!


This discussion has been closed.
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