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My diet

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Comments

  • #32
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    Al_Fernz wrote: »
    Catabolised during the "cutting" phase, while the OP tries to undo the damage he caused himself during the "bulking" phase. Leaving the OP back at square 1.

    Unless someone is COMPLETELY incompetent at dieting that is not gonna happen. If you're basing this off the people you know, and the ones you've talked to then you might want to advise them to up the protein and fat, decrease the carbs and take it easy on cardio next time.

    You have to admit, your experience and anecedotel evidence here is pretty weak. It REALLY sounds like the guys you've talked to don't have a clue what they're doing when dieting, so using them as a proof for your theory isn't a great idea.

    Several members of the board here have gone from relatively high bodyfat %'s to reltively low %'s, myself included, as far as I'm aware none of them have experienced any significant (or even minor) degree of lean tissue loss.

    Going from 18% bodyfat to 10% over the course of a few months really isn't going to result in any muscle wasteage. Going from 10% to 6% or lower might, but that's not what's being suggested to the OP.


    Did I suggest or infer this? I thought the general assumption was that the OP would be training?

    It was inferred with your "pouring petrol into the boot and hoping it makes its way to the engine remark" (ie putting it in the car, but doing nothing to facilitate it reaching it's intended destination).

    The equivalent with food and muscle building would be to put it in your mouth and hope it does something to magically increase your muscle mass with no more effort. However, the act of training is the facilitator. So the "petrol" isn't just being poured into the "car".

    Something like... "it's the same as pouring petrol into the fuel tank of your car, but not performing any maintenance on the fuel lines and engine, but still hoping it will go" might have been better.


  • #33
    Al_Fernz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Al_Fernz


    Hanley wrote: »
    Unless someone is COMPLETELY incompetent at dieting that is not gonna happen. If you're basing this off the people you know, and the ones you've talked to then you might want to advise them to up the protein and fat, decrease the carbs and take it easy on cardio next time.

    You have to admit, your experience and anecedotel evidence here is pretty weak. It REALLY sounds like the guys you've talked to don't have a clue what they're doing when dieting, so using them as a proof for your theory isn't a great idea.

    Opinions on the philosophy of bulking aside. I assume that the OP doesn't have the most complete knowledge when it comes to nutrition - based on the fact that hes asking for assistance in evaluating his diet. Thats why I think its inappropriate for the OP to dismiss large fat gains that occur during bulking as acceptable and something that can easily be reversed. I'm sure you would agree that losing fat while maintaining muscle mass is not a simple process.

    Several members of the board here have gone from relatively high bodyfat %'s to reltively low %'s, myself included, as far as I'm aware none of them have experienced any significant (or even minor) degree of lean tissue loss.

    Going from 18% bodyfat to 10% over the course of a few months really isn't going to result in any muscle wasteage. Going from 10% to 6% or lower might, but that's not what's being suggested to the OP.
    I never denied that bulking/cutting can be successful. However, thats with a caveat that the person really knows what they're doing. There's more than one way to skin a cat and it is possible to gain muscle while not simultaneously gaining fat. If you look at the OP's original goal he says he wants to gain LEAN mass. This is possible and more attainable goal for the OP in both the short and long run.
    It was inferred with your "pouring petrol into the boot and hoping it makes its way to the engine remark" (ie putting it in the car, but doing nothing to facilitate it reaching it's intended destination).

    The equivalent with food and muscle building would be to put it in your mouth and hope it does something to magically increase your muscle mass with no more effort. However, the act of training is the facilitator. So the "petrol" isn't just being poured into the "car".

    Something like... "it's the same as pouring petrol into the fuel tank of your car, but not performing any maintenance on the fuel lines and engine, but still hoping it will go" might have been better.
    The analogy that I used means that it is unnecessary to eat excessively in the hope that all the excess cals will be used to fuel muscle growth. I.e there will be a stage where the tank will be full so why try put more in? It doesn't have anything to do with training.


  • #34
    celestial
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭celestial


    Al_Fernz wrote: »
    Opinions on the philosophy of bulking aside. I assume that the OP doesn't have the most complete knowledge when it comes to nutrition - based on the fact that hes asking for assistance in evaluating his diet. Thats why I think its inappropriate for the OP to dismiss large fat gains that occur during bulking as acceptable and something that can easily be reversed. I'm sure you would agree that losing fat while maintaining muscle mass is not a simple process.


    I never denied that bulking/cutting can be successful. However, thats with a caveat that the person really knows what they're doing. There's more than one way to skin a cat and it is possible to gain muscle while not simultaneously gaining fat. If you look at the OP's original goal he says he wants to gain LEAN mass. This is possible and more attainable goal for the OP in both the short and long run.

    The analogy that I used means that it is unnecessary to eat excessively in the hope that all the excess cals will be used to fuel muscle growth. I.e there will be a stage where the tank will be full so why try put more in? It doesn't have anything to do with training.

    But the point that Hanley is making, and that I made in an earlier post, is that this is almost certainly not going to happen to the OP. He sounds like a fairly skinny guy, your typical ectomorph! He could prob eat all around him and not get fat even if he WASN'T training! Given that he looks serious about training hard, this is even far less likely.

    Plus I would disagree completely that losing fat while maintaining muscle is not a simple process - what is complicated about it? Watch your calorie intake, eat clean most of the time and lift weights to preserve muscle mass while on a lower calorie intake - isn't that pretty straightforward?


  • #35
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    celestial wrote: »
    But the point that Hanley is making, and that I made in an earlier post, is that this is almost certainly not going to happen to the OP. He sounds like a fairly skinny guy, your typical ectomorph! He could prob eat all around him and not get fat even if he WASN'T training! Given that he looks serious about training hard, this is even far less likely.

    Plus I would disagree completely that losing fat while maintaining muscle is not a simple process - what is complicated about it? Watch your calorie intake, eat clean most of the time and lift weights to preserve muscle mass while on a lower calorie intake - isn't that pretty straightforward?

    THANK YOU!!


  • #36
    Al_Fernz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Al_Fernz


    celestial wrote: »
    But the point that Hanley is making, and that I made in an earlier post, is that this is almost certainly not going to happen to the OP.

    And I would agree. If the OP is gaining lean muscle then he should give himself a pat on the back because he knows that his diet and training is spot on. However, my point is that if the OP starts visibly gaining fat he should re-evaluate his diet/training. Remember he said he wants to gain lean mass.
    He could prob eat all around him and not get fat even if he WASN'T training!
    Really?
    Given that he looks serious about training hard, this is even far less likely.
    You don't know what exactly his training routine (which I asked for).
    Plus I would disagree completely that losing fat while maintaining muscle is not a simple process - what is complicated about it? Watch your calorie intake, eat clean most of the time and lift weights to preserve muscle mass while on a lower calorie intake - isn't that pretty straightforward?
    You have to be fairly accurate with your training and diet for this to be successful. Either leaving the cals too high or low in the cutting phase will lead to failure. Careful planning and preparation is essential and also outside the abilities and knowledge of those without decent amounts of nutritional know-how.


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  • #37
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    You have to be fairly accurate with your training and diet for this to be successful. Either leaving the cals too high or low in the cutting phase will lead to failure. Careful planning and preparation is essential and also outside the abilities and knowledge of those without decent amounts of nutritional know-how.

    How to diet in three easy steps;
    1) Maintenance kcals x .85
    2) 40% protein, 30% carbs, 30% fat
    3) 6 meals, 3 hours apart, split the kcals up evenly between them

    That's it. That's all it takes. You can't tell me that's hard or complicated?


  • #38
    unreggd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,835 ✭✭✭unreggd


    My program:
    (12 reps, 3 sets)

    Last assessments: 5 weeks ago

    Bicep Curl / Cables / 18.75kg [13.75kg @ last assessment]
    Triceps / Cables / 16.25kg
    Assissted Dips / Machine / 33kg
    Shrugs / Barbell / 27.5kg [ 25kg @ last assessment]
    Shoulder Raise / Dumbells / 8kg
    Lat Raise / Dumbell / 8kg [6kg at last assessment]
    Pulldown / Machine / 45Kg
    Leg Press / Machine / 45Kg [40kg @ last assessment]

    Torso Rotation / Machine / 50Kg [40kg @ last assessment]
    Lower Abs [leg raises with straight legs] 15 Reps, 3 Sets
    Back Extension / bench / 15 Reps, 3 Sets


  • #39
    Al_Fernz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Al_Fernz


    Hanley wrote: »
    How to diet in three easy steps;
    1) Maintenance kcals x .85
    2) 40% protein, 30% carbs, 30% fat
    3) 6 meals, 3 hours apart, split the kcals up evenly between them

    That's it. That's all it takes. You can't tell me that's hard or complicated?

    Of course that sounds easy. However, this is assuming that the person dieting knows what their maintenace level of kcals is. There will be some degree of error for a person trying to estimate this. The deviation of the error will most likely be negatively correlated with the individual's knowledge of nutrition. Trying to estimate this is a gamble.

    I propose a less risky strategy. The OP eat more clean food in a balanced fashion and continously evaluate his progress on a week by week basis. No formulas, weighing food or trying to guesstimate maintenance levels. Given the OPs is relative nutritional and lifting inexperience this IMO this is more appropriate because it allows him to develop better nutritional habits that will serve him better in the long run.


  • #40
    Al_Fernz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Al_Fernz


    unreggd wrote: »
    My program:
    (12 reps, 3 sets)

    Last assessments: 5 weeks ago

    Bicep Curl / Cables / 18.75kg [13.75kg @ last assessment]
    Triceps / Cables / 16.25kg
    Assissted Dips / Machine / 33kg
    Shrugs / Barbell / 27.5kg [ 25kg @ last assessment]
    Shoulder Raise / Dumbells / 8kg
    Lat Raise / Dumbell / 8kg [6kg at last assessment]
    Pulldown / Machine / 45Kg
    Leg Press / Machine / 45Kg [40kg @ last assessment]

    Torso Rotation / Machine / 50Kg [40kg @ last assessment]
    Lower Abs [leg raises with straight legs] 15 Reps, 3 Sets
    Back Extension / bench / 15 Reps, 3 Sets

    OP your program is based too heavily around machine exercises. IMO this is not the most efficient way to build lean mass.

    My advise would be to get a competant instructor to show you how to perform a basic compound movements such as squats, deadlifts, bench press, rows etc. Then formulate a program (split or fullbody) that incorparates all major muscle areas. These exercises are the most efficient because they work the largest amount of muscles in your body, so you get more bang for your buck.

    I would highly recommend putting some more reseach into developing a training routine and philosphy that reflects your goals. Articles like this will help you:
    http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=674008

    There is a wealth of information out there on the net - so get your research on!


  • #41
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    Al_Fernz wrote: »
    Of course that sounds easy. However, this is assuming that the person dieting knows what their maintenace level of kcals is. There will be some degree of error for a person trying to estimate this. The deviation of the error will most likely be negatively correlated with the individual's knowledge of nutrition. Trying to estimate this is a gamble.

    Bodyweight in lbs x 13

    Don't try and make it sound more complicated than it is.
    I propose a less risky strategy. The OP eat more clean food in a balanced fashion and continously evaluate his progress on a week by week basis. No formulas, weighing food or trying to guesstimate maintenance levels. Given the OPs is relative nutritional and lifting inexperience this IMO this is more appropriate because it allows him to develop better nutritional habits that will serve him better in the long run.


    Most people I've come across lack the discipline to eat large amounts of "clean" food. Anyone that I know with a significant amount of muscle eats alot (some clean, some not) and trains damn hard. You might gain some fat doing this, you might not. If you do gain fat, which I never said WOULD happen, then I'd be confident in saying that at least you know enough kcals are available.

    I don't see the relevance in your point about "nutritional habits" serving him better in the long run. Some of the people I personally know thru here and people I've trained with have the "best" eating habits, or at least those who like to talk like they have, have some of the worst bodies going.

    As far as I know you're relatively new to the whole iron game? I imagine you've read alot, jsut don't fall into the trap of thinking the authors on t-nation have re-invented the wheel when it comes to putting muscle on.

    Eating excess kcals and gaining some fat has and always will be the most efficient way of putting on muscle outside of the anabolic option.


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  • #42
    Al_Fernz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Al_Fernz


    Hanley wrote: »
    Bodyweight in lbs x 13

    Don't try and make it sound more complicated than it is.

    Does that figure account for differing ages, sex, activity levels and genetics? Universally application of that figure would lead to a lot of errors. IMO the best way for the OP to calculate his BMR is to evaluate his weight and diet on a week by week basis. For example - he typically eats 2700kcals a day and his weight stays the same over a period of say a typical week or two. Then the OP can be fairly certain that is his BMR. That is why I think the OP should evaluate his progress on a week by week process and expirement to see what works for him.

    Most people I've come across lack the discipline to eat large amounts of "clean" food. Anyone that I know with a significant amount of muscle eats alot (some clean, some not) and trains damn hard. You might gain some fat doing this, you might not. If you do gain fat, which I never said WOULD happen, then I'd be confident in saying that at least you know enough kcals are available.

    I don't see the relevance in your point about "nutritional habits" serving him better in the long run. Some of the people I personally know thru here and people I've trained with have the "best" eating habits, or at least those who like to talk like they have, have some of the worst bodies going.

    As far as I know you're relatively new to the whole iron game? I imagine you've read alot, jsut don't fall into the trap of thinking the authors on t-nation have re-invented the wheel when it comes to putting muscle on.

    Eating excess kcals and gaining some fat has and always will be the most efficient way of putting on muscle outside of the anabolic option.


    Yeah man - I'm fairly green when it comes to lifting and I admit I still have a lot to learn. I never inferred that my diet is perfect or that I have an amazing physique. I have started to read and research a lot (I'm not busy in work) - nevertheless I'm also putting effort in the gym and starting to see results. I was 72kgs last september and I'm now at 76kgs with no visible change in bodyfat (not great I know but I think its fairly decent progress) - I'm not someone that doesn't practice what they preach and I'm not simply regurgitating information I've read on T-nation etc.

    The OP's goal is lean mass - this can be achieved without large significant gains in bodyfat. I'm just trying to give the OP some information on what I feel has been sucessful for me and steer him away from methods I know did not work for others who I feel at a comparable level to the OP.

    You are talking about going through a cutting process and hoping to achieve a x3 BW squat at the end of it. I don't think you apply the same principles to the OP. I think his more immediate priority should be to learn the basics of nutrition and training first.


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