Abortion

ellenmelon · 20-04-2008 07:44AM

I'm pro-choice.

I don't think a father should overrule any decision. Really, why should he have a veto vote over something like that? and then risk a woman having to bear a child she doesn't want.
There are so many factors that come into it; the mental health of the mother, the economic situation of either parent, possible genetic/inherited problems which could manifest in the baby...

As for midwives/neonate nurses etc asking about abortions...I don't see why it should be a problem, its just that there are lot of very old school midwives out there who wouldn't DREAM of asking such a question. (the old bats.)Often they can't keep professional about it so maybe it's better they dont. I know in Limerick Mat. they ask about the relation of the mother to the father and its just a standard question, I would think that's more uncomfortable to ask!

Gordon · 20-04-2008 08:56AM

queen-mise wrote: »

Personally for me, if i was forced to go through, a pregnancy i didn't want. i would nearly class it as rape of my body, at the worst. I would have serious issues with it. It would be a form of kidnapping.

I'm sure many men may say that it can be classed as a rape of their life if the mother is forcing an abortion when the father doesn't want one, or vice versa.

omb0wyn5ehpij9 · 20-04-2008 11:06AM

I think both the man and woman should have an equal say in the matter

MizzLolly · 20-04-2008 02:25PM

Gordon wrote: »

I'm sure many men may say that it can be classed as a rape of their life if the mother is forcing an abortion when the father doesn't want one, or vice versa.

I totally agree. Have to say that comment about an unwanted pregnancy being a 'rape' of somebody's body, bugged the (beep!) outta me!

BrynW wrote: »

I think both the man and woman should have an equal say in the matter

Yeah, it's only fair. Just because the guy doesn't physically carry the baby he is still the father and should have a say in whether or not the pregnancy is terminated.
Say for example, if the mother was 'pro-choice' and seen her pregnancy as nothing other than an inconvenience but the baby's father was like myself and was distressed by the topic of abortion. Do you really think it's fair to deny him any say in whether his baby lives or dies? Again, you've got to keep in mind, that to a 'pro-life' believer, that feotus is a baby. I know it's hard to understand but please try.

I can't imagine how distressed a man who had the same views I do on abortion, would feel if his baby was terminated. I just think that it's very, very harsh.

ChewChew · 20-04-2008 02:37PM

Definitley it should be a choice made by both parties.

I am in 2 different minds about it TBH. Sometimes I am for, sometimes against. I know of only 1 woman who had an abortion and it was a choie made by both herself and her partner. looking at it now, I think it was the best decision.

I also think that abortion is used too lightly in the UK by woman. Girls use it almost as a form of contraception, and when get caught out sure off they go to the clinic. I completely disagree with this. But it is so easy to access these clinics in the UK that it is easier for woman to choose this option. And as far as I am aware (and I stand to be corrected on this) the NHS do this procedure free of charge.

Agent Smith · 20-04-2008 02:45PM

<--- pro life

i'd rather raise the child myslef, if the option was that or abort it.
the idea sickens me

daiixi · 20-04-2008 09:33PM

So the father wants the pregnancy to go ahead and the mother doesn't. Seems like a stale-mate to me. Who gets to cast the deciding vote?

I'm pretty sure, if I decided it was the right thing, that I could go through with an abortion. I really don't think, right thing or not, that I could go through with giving up my child. I suppose it comes down to what you personally consider abortion to be. For me, I don't consider it murder of a baby because I don't really consider it to be a baby at that stage. Then again, I don't know at what stage I do consider it to be a baby.

I know people who have had abortions and it doesn't change the way I think about them at all. I'm not that shallow.

I don't think, unless you're in the person actually in the situation, that you really have a right to say anything about the situation.

the_syco · 20-04-2008 10:59PM

ChewChew wrote: »

I also think that abortion is used too lightly in the UK by woman. Girls use it almost as a form of contraception, and when get caught out sure off they go to the clinic. I completely disagree with this. But it is so easy to access these clinics in the UK that it is easier for woman to choose this option. And as far as I am aware (and I stand to be corrected on this) the NHS do this procedure free of charge.

+1. They seem to do it a bit too freely, but meh. It's their right to choose. If the father doesn't want the baby, tough sh|te, he'll still have to pay maintenance for the child for the next 18 years. If he wants her to keep it, but she doesn't, it's her choice.

Tin Goddess · 21-04-2008 01:30AM

Women using abortion as a means of contraception? Similar to the old if we make emergency contraception more easily availible they will all be using that .... No woman and i do mean NO woman thinks screw the condom I can just have an abortion. This view is incredibly disrespectiful of women. yes there are women who end up having multple aboritons but try to remember that even the best of contraceptives have a 1-2% failure rate. Over the course of her lifetime a woman could expect to have multiple pregnancies even if they always use contraceptives. and anyway the majority of women seeking terminatiosn were using a contraceptive at the time that failed.

And we should all try to remember that in the contaceptive game it takes two to tango.... for every woman who takes a risk and ends up pregnant there is a man who did the same ... they just dont end up in the stirrups afterwards. so to say that "women" Are using it as a form of contraception is a little bit disengenuous

iguana · 21-04-2008 02:14AM

I do believe that the man's opinion should be listened to and seriously considered, but at the end of the day it is the woman's decision. It is her body and there is no getting away from that. If science was a point where the fetus could be removed in a similar procedure to an abortion and implanted in a surrogate then the man could have an equal say. But until that point the ultimate decision will lie with the woman.

However if a woman has an abortion against the desire of the man, then it needs to be respected that he may grieve in a similar way as he would to a miscarriage and possible be incredibly angry with the woman.

tallaght01 · 21-04-2008 06:34AM

I think Tin Goddess makes a good point. Using abortion as a contraceptive, or getting an abortion at the drop of a hat are, I believe, much less common than some people would have us believe.

Sure, there's lots of stories about girls going into the their doc, and getting chalked down for an abortion, with apparent indifference.

But, when I spent some time working in GP land I used to see these girls. They were typically about 18-23. They would walk in the door and sit down. I'd say "how can I help you?", and they'd just say "I want an abortion". If I said nothing else, and just put their name on a list then they'd be happier. Of course, I would ask some basic medical questions, to which I always got one word answers. Then I would ask if they'd liek to have a chat about it....."No", was always the answer. Would they like to talk to someone else, perhaps one of the lady docs, or our practise nurse? "No".

One word answers, and a very distant attitude. It makes a lot of people think they don't care. It makes it all sound very easy. But they do care, and it's not easy.

They just don't want to talk about it in a lot of cases. They're often ashamed, scared or angry. Like teenagers with attitude, they often look like they don't care about anything. And, also like teenagers with attitude, they can be feeling a world of hurt and confusion that it's difficult for them to explain, and it's difficult for us to empathise with.

So, invariably, they toddle off home. They've got their termination booked. hey've refused professional care, so they never learn to take control of their sexuality. They refuse a follow-up witht he practise nurse for contraception advice, so they don't lear why they get pregnant in the first place. They don't tell family about what they're going through, so their self esteem diminishes.

No-one needs me to tell them that women with low self esteem/depression don't find it easy to take control over things like regular contraception, and they find it difficult to be assertive about their sexuality.

So the cycles continiues, a year later, at their GP with one word answers, another abortion, and refusing all help.

I had a lot of sleepless nights over these poor girls.

Reku · 21-04-2008 09:26AM

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

I believe men should have two rights: the right to legally argue that a woman go through with a pregnancy on the basis that she then signs away all parental rights to the child and all responsibility of maintenance because he wants to raise the child, and the right to sign away all parental rights and responsibilties of maintenance himself if he has requested a pregnancy not be carried to full term.

I think you have just perfectly covered my concerns over the issue from protecting the man's rights, but at the same time is forcing the woman to carry what is effectively a parasite (sorry but from a scientific definition that's what it is) for 9 months really fair on her, I wouldn't think so. Also what happens if she decides at the end that she can't just forget the child and does want to be part of it's life after signing away the right to such? On one side they would need to ensure the contract were iron clad as regards preventing the male doing a runner at the last minute when he had signed up to be the sole carer, but at the same time there is the issue of women deciding that they do want to be a mum at the last minute.

The case that this topic makes me think of is the one of the couple who had had embryos frozen and then split, the woman wanted to use the embryos but the man had withdrawn his consent and insisted that they be destroyed. I know this terminology may upset some, but had she been allowed to have the embryos implanted it would have been the equivalent of genetic rape against the man.

tallaght01 wrote: »

One thing about abortion that always strikes me is how many women have had one, and still conceal it from their current partner. I work in a neonatal unit and, when we admit a sick baby, I always go and see mum to talk to her about her obstetric history, in order to maybe get a clue from past events as to what is causing the problems with her new baby.

I always ask about terminations. They are always honest with me, but many many times I've been asked not to mention it to their current partner.

If surveys are to be believed then there was one that was referenced on after hours that said that a large % of women will also lie to their partner about whether they are on the pill in order to get pregnant. In so far as it is their own body I feel this is fair enough, but at the same time the men should have the right to have some say in the consequences of such actions.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Some are not, I know of someone's who's marriage broke down when her husband found out that when she was expecting that she had an abortion while a teen, which left her then raising the child on her own.

Her ex-husband is an a55 IMO, to get so irate over a child that was not his to abandon one that is!:mad:
To even hold the fact that she'd had an abortion as a teen against her is unfair IMO, as you have no idea how she felt at the time and all the things that were going through her head. This pisses me off as much as people passing such judgements on those who've have tried/succeeded to commit suicide. That pro-lifers have tried to force victims of rape to carry the children spawned of that act is just awful I feel, how is she supposed to start getting over the nightmare when she has a constant reminder growing inside her. Some women will manage not to let the feelings spill over to the foetus/child but others can't, this is in no way a failing on their part and they should not have to answer for it. I think the phrase "you don't know, you weren't there!" pretty much sums it up.:mad:

One thing I would definitely say is that Ireland should legalise abortion since the need to travel to get one only puts extra strain on the woman's body and increases the likelyhood of complications as a result.

I worry a bit that this topic might also upset some of those who've had miscarriages, it's a loss that no-one other than the woman who's had it happen can understand, for them to lose a child while another is throwing one away must seem cruel and I hope that none of them are upset reading this topic.
But then I suppose I'm possibly letting my views on life make the wording of my post a bit more harsh than it might be otherwise, for which I am sorry, as TBH there is a part of me often horrified that anyone would condemn a soul to this world, but that's my problem, not their's, though at the same time part of me questions if it's right to kill someone, whether they've yet been born or not

*brainfry*

.

Abortion is just one of those issues that's guaranteed to get strong emotions going I guess....

Dudess · 21-04-2008 09:31AM

There is one relatively well known woman who claims to treat having an abortion as, in her own words, "getting her tonsils out" and that is Julie Burchill - sh1t-stirring, sensationalist columnist. I imagine her words must hurt some people terribly.

marti101 · 21-04-2008 10:00AM

i think as someone whos had 3 miscarriages i dont view someone having an abortion as throwing the baby away it must be terribly hard to go through with one.i know some one who had an abortion but at the time she was alone and had nobody to look out for her .also on the issue on the man having equal say i dont think they should as we dont know what kind of fathers they make they might be there physically but whether they help with the baby once its born is another thing.i dont think an abortion is an easy thing to go through,as many women who have bortion already have kids so it can and does happen to anybody we dont know how we are going to react unless we are in the situation

Dragan · 21-04-2008 11:26AM

I'm not going to pull any quotes from the thread but quite frankly the people who think the man should have no say in the situation have raised my hackles quite a bit.

There still seems to be some kind of underlying attitude that if a girl should get pregnant and it was not planned that this is somehow completely the mans fault and frankly it pissed me off.

Whatever way anyone likes to look at it there are THREE lives in the balance in this one. I know plenty of couples who have found themselves dealing with an unplanned pregnancy some have kept the child and split, some have kept the child and stayed together, some have opted for abortion and split and some have opted for abortion and stayed together.

Each case is completely individual and for anyone who is not involved to look from the outside, knowing none of the story and make these peoples choice for them is hypocrisy of the highest order.

It worries me that there are people out there who would look at me as a man and expect me to rally up to the responsibilities of a parenthood that i was effectively forced into.

Sure, you can say if you don't want to deal with it then don't have sex, but that applies to the woman as well.

The double standards that exist in some peoples minds when it comes to sex, parenthood and abortion are incredible.

Then again i imagine for those same people my opinion does not count as i have the audacity to be man.

Shame on me.

NextSteps · 21-04-2008 11:51AM

Yes, but can you really say that a man may force the woman either to abort or to keep a pregnancy that she doesn't want? And in case of a stand-off...?

Ideally, it's a joint decision. But this is not the kind of discussion that takes place under ideal circumstances.

Dragan · 21-04-2008 11:58AM

UB wrote: »

Yes, but can you really say that a man may force the woman either to abort or to keep a pregnancy that she doesn't want? And in case of a stand-off...?

Well a couple of folk here seem to think it is okay to force the man into Fatherhood but of course that is not what i am saying.

What i am saying is the man has a right to express whether he wants to be a father or not in the same way has the woman has a right to express whether or not she wants to be a mother.

Sometimes the decisions matches , sometimes it does not, either way each case is way too individual for one rule to be applied and is something that should be sorted between the two people and whoever else they choose to involve.

And as hopeless as a man's say normally is in these situations at least give us the ****ing chance to express it.

But some men are pimps, and some men will administer a beating to a pregnant lass and some men are scum so obviously none of us should have a say in things.

NextSteps · 21-04-2008 12:31PM

Dragan wrote: »

What i am saying is the man has a right to express whether he wants to be a father or not in the same way has the woman has a right to express whether or not she wants to be a mother.

Sometimes the decisions matches , sometimes it does not, either way each case is way too individual for one rule to be applied and is something that should be sorted between the two people and whoever else they choose to involve.

And as hopeless as a man's say normally is in these situations at least give us the ****ing chance to express it.

But some men are pimps, and some men will administer a beating to a pregnant lass and some men are scum so obviously none of us should have a say in things.

Absolutely. I wasn't disagreeing with this at all! Mind you,

Dragan wrote: »

Well a couple of folk here seem to think it is okay to force the man into Fatherhood but of course that is not what i am saying.

This is a bit dodgy. If a woman chooses (for any of a thousand reasons) not to abort, then the man becomes a father. It is not a question of forcing, it is an inevitability. And sometimes responsibilities are inevitable and undeniable - I think this is one of those cases.

The Sweeper · 21-04-2008 12:39PM

I disagree, UB - I think men should be allowed to legally sign away all rights and responsibilities to a child that they did not want, especially if that starts during pregnancy - e.g. if he wants her to abort the child when she discovers she's eight weeks pregnant, and he continues to want that through the pregnancy, I believe he should be allowed to sign away his rights and his responsibilities.

I don't believe it should apply into the life of the child (e.g. you don't get to piss off when the kid's two because it all got too hard).

If it's made to be a legal process, it'll be a one-off expense that I believe would deter most tossers from using it as a "form of contraception" as it were. (Similarly to how abortion really isn't a form of contraception either.)

tallaght01 · 21-04-2008 12:40PM

Dragan, I think the problem is that the people you're talking about are getting too caught up with pregnancy being the cenral issue here. It seems that in some people's heads it's all about the pregnancy. The woman has to carry the baby, therefore she has to have the choice.

From a woman's poin of view, that might make sense. But from a guy's point of view, it's a little hard to digest. Sure, the woman has to go through 9months of pregnancy. Sure, labour can be unpleasant. I've been to deliveries where mums have died.

But, like I said before, the issue is the life of this kid. Pregnancy/labour is only 9months of that.

Very few people (of those I've spoken to about their reasons) get abortions because they don't want to go through labour. They get them because the time isn't right for them to raise a child, or the circumstances are wrong.

Therefore, I agree with Dragan. It does grind my gears to listen to some people who think men are going to do a runner etc. I can tell you, I've looked after MANY MANY babies int he past that have been abandoned byt heir mother. We men don't have a monopoly on it.

I accept, though, that most threads on here been reasonable, regardless of what side of the fence you fall down on. But there's always those who are too polarised to see past the gender issue.

If we argued that these choices be made on the basis of a physical characteristic that is unique to men, the same people would label us mysogynistic. We can't help that we can't give birth. Why does that mean that we can't have a say over whether our unborn child lives or dies?

tallaght01 · 21-04-2008 12:44PM

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

I disagree, UB - I think men should be allowed to legally sign away all rights and responsibilities to a child that they did not want, especially if that starts during pregnancy - e.g. if he wants her to abort the child when she discovers she's eight weeks pregnant, and he continues to want that through the pregnancy, I believe he should be allowed to sign away his rights and his responsibilities.

I personally think that would be one of the most socially reprehensible laws we could ever imagine introducing.

But, in fairness, from a strictly philosophical point of view, it's not a million miles away from forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy through to term when she wants an abortion (with the guy taking over care of the baby afterwards, as has been discussed above).

So, it's an interesting idea......but still a shocker

The Sweeper · 21-04-2008 12:45PM

farohar wrote: »

I think you have just perfectly covered my concerns over the issue from protecting the man's rights, but at the same time is forcing the woman to carry what is effectively a parasite (sorry but from a scientific definition that's what it is) for 9 months really fair on her, I wouldn't think so. Also what happens if she decides at the end that she can't just forget the child and does want to be part of it's life after signing away the right to such? On one side they would need to ensure the contract were iron clad as regards preventing the male doing a runner at the last minute when he had signed up to be the sole carer, but at the same time there is the issue of women deciding that they do want to be a mum at the last minute.

Yeah - I don't mean a man should be legally allowed to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term. However, I do believe there should be a framework to say that she carries the baby to term and signs it over to him - essentially she's almost just a surrogate mother for his child. Similar to having the child and offering it up for adoption, except this way you know who the child is going to.

What happens if she changes her mind at the last minute and wants to be a mum? Well then they get joint custody, hooray! What happens if he changes his mind at the last minute? I don't know, hey, this is theory. (Maybe we can arrange to have him stuck by lightning.)

I just don't think it's as cut and dried as "You're the bloke, you got no say, it's my body".

It's your body for nine months. It's both your lives for at the very least eighteen years.

Dudess · 21-04-2008 12:46PM

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

I disagree, UB - I think men should be allowed to legally sign away all rights and responsibilities to a child that they did not want, especially if that starts during pregnancy - e.g. if he wants her to abort the child when she discovers she's eight weeks pregnant, and he continues to want that through the pregnancy, I believe he should be allowed to sign away his rights and his responsibilities.

Yeah, my mate got used as a nice bit of fresh meat by a 33-year-old when she was 18 (silly girl yes, but she was vulnerable and he bloody well knew it) and when she announced she was pregnant he told her he didn't want anything more to do with her and would have his solicitor on top of her like a ton of bricks if she tried to make him part of the baby's life. Now her son is nearly six and she has since met a wonderful guy who treats the little fella as his. When the biological father hits middle age (only about five years away) and starts to mellow, there's a chance he might want to hook up with the son he rejected, and why should he be allowed? I think Minesajackdaniels' suggestion is ideal for the likes of him. Sadly people like him (both male and female) exist.

tallaght01 wrote: »

I've been to deliveries where mums have died.

Sorry to take this off topic but... Jesus! In this day and age?! What killed them? Labour or infection? That's freaked me out big time.

Quality · 21-04-2008 12:54PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

I personally think that would be one of the most socially reprehensible laws we could ever imagine introducing.

But, in fairness, from a strictly philosophical point of view, it's not a million miles away from forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy through to term when she wants an abortion (with the guy taking over care of the baby afterwards, as has been discussed above).

So, it's an interesting idea......but still a shocker

I agree its a shocker, I personally dont like the idea of it.

However it does make a lot of sense.
Its a no win situation for a man in Ireland

If the man wants to keep the baby, He has no choice the woman can get rid of it with or without his consent.

If the woman wants to keep the baby. The man can be brought to court to pay for maintanence, whether he wants the child or not.

Dragan · 21-04-2008 12:55PM

UB wrote: »

This is a bit dodgy. If a woman chooses (for any of a thousand reasons) not to abort, then the man becomes a father. It is not a question of forcing, it is an inevitability. And sometimes responsibilities are inevitable and undeniable - I think this is one of those cases.

And if the man should want to keep the baby and the mother opts to abort?

What then, sit back and kiss your child goodbye?

The simple thing about being a Father in Ireland is you have all of the responsibilities and none of the rights. Generally speaking.

tallaght01 · 21-04-2008 12:57PM

Dudess wrote: »

Sorry to take this off topic but... Jesus! In this day and age?! What killed them? Labour or infection? That's freaked me out big time.

I saw a few when I worked in Africa...sepsis and bleeding mostly.

Only ever seen one in a developed country.....a bad bleed in the UK a few years back.

Without dragging things off-topic (but I'd feel very responsible if I was the cause of people being scared of pregnancy) it's so so so rare in 1st world countries. For years I've been going to several high risk deliveries per day in modern hospitals, and only saw this one woman bleeding out. A few die afterwards, from various conditions, ranging from clots to suicide (suicide is the most common cause of death from the point of labour to 12 months after, due to post natal depression).

Like I said, I don't wanna drag this OT, so I'll have a look for a pretty reassuring report on the issue, and i'll post it. It's called "why mothers die". It's published in the UK by the royal college of obstetricians, and will put people's mind at ease if they look at the stats (they'll be similiar for ireland). I have a paper copy, but I'm sure it's online. Wach this space...and sory for the off topicness

EDIT: found it....... http://www.rcpe.ac.uk/publications/articles/journal_35_4/why%20mothers%20die.pdf

,8,1 · 21-04-2008 12:58PM

I would never judge a woman who has had an abortion, never.

I would. I would judge them as irresponsible, murderous and selfish.

Dudess · 21-04-2008 01:01PM

Funny, apart from the murderous bit, that's how I'd characterise a guy who fukks off on a girl he gets pregnant.

Dragan · 21-04-2008 01:13PM

,8,1 wrote: »

I would. I would judge them as irresponsible, murderous and selfish.

Good for you. How is the saddle on that high horse?

Maple · 21-04-2008 01:16PM

Dragan wrote: »

Good for you. How is the saddle on that high horse?

You read my mind.

Abortion

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