Is individuality an overrated concept?

leninbenjamin · 16-04-2008 05:54PM

individuals are essential to any society. they are the ones who bring progress, via new ideas, inventions, starting off new trends etc. the individual is much more important to society than the conformist, because it's the individual who gets the ball rolling.

our fundamental flaw as a nation is that we lack enough individuals, particularly in relation to the economy. no new ideas = no new products to sell = no growth. that's part of the reason we've had to look so much to FDI as our saviour.

Sangre · 16-04-2008 05:57PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

It's nice to live in a country, we're told, where you have the freedom to express yourself. And fair play to people who can break away from the herd and not be sheep, so to speak. Is this just lip-service, or do we really mean it?

But Ireland, be it good or bad, is a very conformed country, and my impression is that most Irish like it that way. We're intimidated by what's different. Most boardsies are guilty of this to some point, which is one of the reasons why I'm starting this thread. Someone even had "death to Emos" or "Emo hater" in his signature at one point. But hey - emos (and other groups, for that matter: gays, goths, hippies, Grafton St buskers) are all just people who express themsleves, be it right or wrong, and should be respected for doing so.

Should they be forced to conform to everyone elese's standards and fvck individulaity!? Or are Dubliners just anti-expression of indiviuality or freedom? Are we so scared that conformity is so important?

Lots of questions - discuss!!

so essentially you're saying that by hating one sub section of society that you must also hate the concept of individuality? not quite sure how you made that leap.

Sangre: I hate racists
Ikky Poo2: Don't commit your hate crimes here sangre!!!

kwestfan08 · 16-04-2008 05:58PM

Always remember, you are individual, just like everyone else

leninbenjamin · 16-04-2008 06:01PM

kwestfan08 wrote: »

Always remember, you are individual, just like everyone else

pfft... conformist :rolleyes:

Overheal · 16-04-2008 06:01PM

leninbenjamin wrote: »

individuals are essential to any society. they are the ones who bring progress, via new ideas, inventions, starting off new trends etc. the individual is much more important to society than the conformist, because it's the individual who gets the ball rolling.

our fundamental flaw as a nation is that we lack enough individuals, particularly in relation to the economy. no new ideas = no new products to sell = no growth. that's part of the reason we've had to look so much to FDI as our saviour.

at the same time conformists are great because they do what you tell them

leninbenjamin · 16-04-2008 06:04PM

Overheal wrote: »

at the same time conformists are great because they do what you tell them

indeed. i forgot to say there exists a healthy balance between the two.

AngryBadger · 16-04-2008 09:34PM

Sangre wrote: »

so essentially you're saying that by hating one sub section of society that you must also hate the concept of individuality? not quite sure how you made that leap.
Sangre: I hate racists
Ikky Poo2: Don't commit your hate crimes here sangre!!!

Well yeah that's pretty much the whole point. You can't just hate one aprticular demographic but be all for the idea of individualism. I suppose technically you could argue that you hate racists (hypothetical I realise) but everyone esle is fine so you're ok with individualism, but you don't want anything to do with racists...

For me that's too much at odds with the spirit of the whole thing.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-04-2008 10:07PM

Sangre wrote: »

so essentially you're saying that by hating one sub section of society that you must also hate the concept of individuality? not quite sure how you made that leap.

Sangre: I hate racists
Ikky Poo2: Don't commit your hate crimes here sangre!!!

Essentially what I'm saying is that people aren't free to act in a free society, assuming that they abide by the law, of course, societal law will kick in and they will indeed wind up being hated.

Sangre: I hate racists.
Ikky Poo2: Booooring!

WhiteWashMan · 16-04-2008 11:23PM

AngryBadger wrote: »

It's fantastic that we live in a country where people have the RIGHT to be individuals, choose their own destiny and all that, but there are two points to remember.

1) Individuality is wasted on most people. The majority of people don't REALLY want to be individuals because being too much of an individual seperates you from the herd.

2) Oftentimes being an individual DOES mean doing the same thing as everyone else. For example if I decide to go to college, I'm making the best decision for myself (i.e. being an individual), but I'm also making a choic which is identical to the choice made my thousands of other people, and yet I'm still being an individual.

So it's difficult to know when people are truly being their own individual, or just another lemming.

point 1
you are suggesting that to be an individual that you can have little if anything in common with anyone else.

why do you think individuality is wasted on most people. thats a pretty big statement. i fail to see how you could ever have conducted such an in depth survey on 'most people'.
i also have no idea why you think tht most people are worried about herd mentality.

i think you will find that most people just do whatever they want. if what they want is the same as lots of other people, then i fail to see why making a common decision is seen as not being individual.
people are not stuck into catagories and then make a mass decision to be something. people make individual decisions, and then people lik eyou come along and put them into catagories that they never asked for.

id suggest that some people like to catagorise other people, and then paint them all with a certain petrolium based substance on a brush.
so is the threat to individualism not the concept of a common decision, but actually, the individuals who decide the catagories?

So it's difficult to know when people are truly being their own individual, or just another lemming.

surely being a lemming is an individual choice?

and i find it amusing that you would use the word lemming. youre suggesting that people who make a common decision are simply herd creatures, devoid of all individual thought.

what do you have to to do or be these days to be considered 'an individual' anyway?

do you need to be gay? nah, too common.
religious? nah, too common?
wear insane clothes? nah, anyone can do that?
perhaps be the only black person inthe nazi party? certainly an amusing idea, but can we really catagorize someone as being an individual based on something that they are, but which they have no choice about?

perhaps a better way of viewing the world is to think of everyone as an individual, but some individuals have a common theme.

and just for the catagory clouded people out there, maybe you can put everyone in an individual catagory, and take it from there?

Davidius · 17-04-2008 12:02AM

Emos and (wanna be) scumbags are pretty much the opposite of individuals. :pac:

Wibbs · 17-04-2008 12:07AM

Jeez fierce deep altogether. I reckon for a lot of people individuality is overrated. We are a social species after all and most feel happier associated with some group, mainstream or not. Too many choices confuse some. It's good to have them mind, but choice brings responsibility which some find hard to process.

WhiteWashMan · 17-04-2008 12:12AM

i find that those people who are grossly indiviualistic tend to be emotionally unstabe anyway. they feel they have to exaggerate certain qualities in order to try and make their presence felt in the world.

some people are happy not to be in the limelight, to be noted in society as different. becuase some people have more important things in their life to do than worry about what other people think of them.

17-04-2008 12:13AM

Thank the gods I've never met a personality clone. Viva la difference!

challengemaster · 17-04-2008 12:24AM

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Thank the gods I've never met a personality clone. Viva la difference!

Vive*

Agreed, though!

17-04-2008 12:28AM

Talking about differences, there's no one like CM!

Fremen · 17-04-2008 12:30AM

I think it's actually quite rare to meet a real "individual". Goths, skinheads, rockers, stoners and so on might claim to be, but really they're just small subcultures with their own rules, just like other societies. Here's an interesting link to a project which tried to document this photographically:
http://www.exactitudes.com/

I think the real "individuals" would often be considered freewheeling-bat****-insane by most normal people, and rightly so. Man is a social animal with societal rules. People who don't conform to these rules will be difficult to deal with most of the time.

WhiteWashMan · 17-04-2008 12:34AM

so, does it then depend on your location with regard to others?

is an individual someone that doesnt fit into the social rules?

im still ata loss as to what an individual is. i think the above descriptions is, quite frankly, crap. an individual isnt someone who just doesnt fit in.

again, people catagorising the masses to justify the singlular.

jeez, its 9:30 am here and im typing this crap. time to shower and go to work!

OpenYourEyes · 17-04-2008 12:40AM

ireland is unfortunatly riddled with the cancer of conformity!

not that having large groups of similar ppl is a bad thing- e.g. skangers, emos, D4s, culchies etc

but its when they refuse to respect to acknowledge others individuality/ differances is where we get the problems!

that said when youv got pre-conceived conformity you know your in trouble ( when ppl change completely over a summer etc)

as opposed to loads of people being similar, and THEN becoming a large group- accidental conformity if you will

WhiteWashMan · 17-04-2008 12:46AM

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

ireland is unfortunatly riddled with the cancer of conformity!

i wouldnt have thought so.

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

but its when they refuse to respect to acknowledge others individuality/ differances is where we get the problems!

now, thats an entirely different issue, the intolerance of people. and thats not a catagory thing either, thats an..... ironically enough.... individual thing.

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

that said when youv got pre-conceived conformity you know your in trouble ( when ppl change completely over a summer etc)

again, i disagree. people change all the time. young people change more than older people becuase they gain new experiences every day. you meet someone with a certain image that you like, then you make a decision that youd like to do something similar etc.
make no mistake, we all change. it has nothing to do with conformity. we are human beings. is learning to speak english a conformity? i mean, we learn it from our parents, we mimic, we try out, we disregard what we dont like, we take on board what we like.

its the disregarding and the keeping that makes us individuals. do we take on the values of our parents? our peers? our teachers? why does dressing like your peers make you a conformist? should i dress like a trappist monk, just to appease someones idea of non conformity?

thats just stupid. the breeze would freeze my balls off.

BraziliaNZ · 17-04-2008 12:56AM

When I were a lad, you were only allowed have shaved back and sides, wear either tracksuits or jeans and airmax type shoes and maybe a hoody. And the only acceptable music was "Rave", UB40, and Bob Marley. Anything else and you would be considered gay or weird and maybe get attacked. If you had your hair a little bit long you would get verbally abused by other kids on the streets and at school. Is it still like this? Oh and what do the so-called "Streetwise" kids listen to nowadays? Is it still squeaky voice techno stuff?

bug · 17-04-2008 01:06AM

Individuality in its true form tends to surface when neccessary.

Most adult individuals conform until its necessary not to.

So no, I can't see how its overrated or indeed any way linked to musical preference.

OpenYourEyes · 17-04-2008 01:07AM

i wouldnt have thought so.

again, i disagree. people change all the time. young people change more than older people becuase they gain new experiences every day.........[/quote]

right, i only had one example in mind for the "cancer of conformity" comment - that being that i dont like the way my college is full of so many of the same people-meaning all events and entertainment are geared towards them. i know that the majority have to be catered to etc etc, but it pushes out many others! regarding the topic at hand, not a perfect statement i know!

regarding the 2nd bit- naturally people change! and of course if you werent an emo wen you wer 4, doesnt mean you should be condemned for becoming one at the age of 12- but to look at a group of people, and abandon 99% of your "self" to fit in with them is not a good thing!

for example, a friend of mine, 100% emo, after the d4 thing started catching on he got rid of all of his emo clothes and pretty much said he wants to be d4 now!

-now to me that isnt right! i still get on with the guy and all that, still a good friend, but the action itself and what it can lead to - flawed!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-04-2008 01:28AM

The tribal thing doesn't really wash with me. Perhaps someone becomes a Goth because he likes the culture as opposed to everyone else he knows becoming goths? Of course, if the latter is true, the sheep mentality shines through, irrespective of the final judgement.

I agree with the conformed opinion of Dublin (not sure about the rest of the country: always assumed it was much more conformed because of the lack of outlets for the individual).

AngryBadger · 17-04-2008 05:30PM

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

point 1
you are suggesting that to be an individual that you can have little if anything in common with anyone else.

No I'm not.

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

why do you think individuality is wasted on most people. thats a pretty big statement. i fail to see how you could ever have conducted such an in depth survey on 'most people'.

I haven't surveyed anyone to reach the conclusion of individualism being wasted on "most people". However, assuming that a person who is acting as an individual is going to make choices that best optimise their happiness it would seem fair that this would be reflected in the general attitude/satisfaction of the people I see everyday. What I tend to see does not reflect a majority of people making "individual" choices. What I see very accurately reflects a majority of people doing more or less the same thing as everyone else, which does not allow them to optimise their choices for maximum happiness (this sounds like an episode of the care bears), erego I don't think most people act as individuals.

It's reasonable to assert that in order for someone to be capable of making "individiualistic" decisions/choices, then they must be sufficiently well-informed, and capable of processing said information. Again, I don't think most people are either sufficiently well-informed, or generally willing to invest themselves enough in a decision to make the best choice for themselves.

i also have no idea why you think that most people are worried about herd mentality.

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

i think you will find that most people just do whatever they want. if what they want is the same as lots of other people, then i fail to see why making a common decision is seen as not being individual.

If someone makes a decision which is identical to the decision made by everyone else, but THAT decision is absed on THEIR OWN assessment of the informaiton available to them, then fine, yes I consider that an individual decision. But I don't believe that most people do that. I think most people make decisions in accordance with the wishes/inclinations of the majority simply because it's convenient.

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

people are not stuck into catagories and then make a mass decision to be something. people make individual decisions, and then people lik eyou come along and put them into catagories that they never asked for.

If the shoe fits...

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

and i find it amusing that you would use the word lemming.

I'm glad you find it amusing, such was my intent.

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

perhaps a better way of viewing the world is to think of everyone as an individual, but some individuals have a common theme.

Which of course pre-supposes that people/personality must be "themed", which is at odds with your wildly righteous assertion that people like me love to categorise everyone else.

:rolleyes:

Is individuality an overrated concept?

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