Is individuality an overrated concept?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

It's nice to live in a country, we're told, where you have the freedom to express yourself. And fair play to people who can break away from the herd and not be sheep, so to speak. Is this just lip-service, or do we really mean it?

But Ireland, be it good or bad, is a very conformed country, and my impression is that most Irish like it that way. We're intimidated by what's different. Most boardsies are guilty of this to some point, which is one of the reasons why I'm starting this thread. Someone even had "death to Emos" or "Emo hater" in his signature at one point. But hey - emos (and other groups, for that matter: gays, goths, hippies, Grafton St buskers) are all just people who express themsleves, be it right or wrong, and should be respected for doing so.

Should they be forced to conform to everyone elese's standards and fvck individulaity!? Or are Dubliners just anti-expression of indiviuality or freedom? Are we so scared that conformity is so important?

Lots of questions - discuss!!

dregin

Ya have to get a ****ing permit to "protest".

Freedom my ****in ballix.

kev_s88

yes

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

individual liberty would be awesome, but there's always ****ers who think they know how you oughta live and they tend to organise well.

Brian: You are all individuals.
Crowd: We are all individuals.
One guy: I'm not.

Jay P

No, who the hell wants to be the same as everyone else?

aidan_walsh

Individualism is relative to the communities that person is a part of.

Sherifu

Live and let live.

Jigsaw

Having the freedom to be individual is a very good thing. Choosing not to be individual does not make you a bad person.

Some people tear the arse out of it and in every aspect of their life strive to be as weird and kooky as they possibly can be in a vain attempt to appear interesting. It is so very contrived.

So it is neither underrated nor overrated imo.

Rob_l

webster define individuality as
1 a: total character peculiar to and distinguishing an individual from others b: personality
2archaic : the quality or state of being indivisible
3: separate or distinct existence
4: individual, person

everyone has individuality

and emo's are surely only striving to appear like their peers nothing distinguishing about that

constitutionus

i dont think its overated but then again ya cant piss and moan about the loss of societal norms such as looking out for your neighbours (or even KNOWING them) if whats being pushed is an individualist economy which unfortunetly is what we've got going on in this country at the moment

im constantly amazed that people dont make the connection between the "im alright jack" ethos of the last 15yrs and the generation of scumbags that are murdering each other on the streets every week now.

if all that matters is your own individual desires than thats what happens.

its funny i dont consider myself a conformist, indeed i have a great loathing for the PC culture thats endemic in the media which seems to me to be just another form of dogma that they can adhere to without thinking i.e "black bloke gets mugged? MUST be racism !" and the like, and i am a bit of a loner but even i'll admit theres merit to a general societal norm that profers a sense of identity to the country. even if it is just getting rat arsed in a pub every week. it certainly beasts the fractured gated community mentality where no one interacts with anyone else

AngryBadger

It's fantastic that we live in a country where people have the RIGHT to be individuals, choose their own destiny and all that, but there are two points to remember.

1) Individuality is wasted on most people. The majority of people don't REALLY want to be individuals because being too much of an individual seperates you from the herd.

2) Oftentimes being an individual DOES mean doing the same thing as everyone else. For example if I decide to go to college, I'm making the best decision for myself (i.e. being an individual), but I'm also making a choic which is identical to the choice made my thousands of other people, and yet I'm still being an individual.

So it's difficult to know when people are truly being their own individual, or just another lemming.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

So. We like it.

Why are we constantley verbally absuing everyone who's different then?

5starpool

Resistance is futile!!!!

Overheal

Definitely a humanities discussion here.

the whole point is we're clashing ideas off eachother. If everyone thought the same then nobody would bother to change and we'd stop developing as people or even as a society.

starpool even the Borg assimilated new ideas.

AngryBadger

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So. We like it.
Why are we constantley verbally absuing everyone who's different then?

Basic survival.

If you were an animal that had staked out a particular patch of hunting ground and a different beastie wandered onto your patch you'd attack them.

nowadays the "patch" has changed, but the principal is the same. Notwithstanding a situation where friends a taking the mick out of each toher, generally when people abuse people different from themselves it's an effort to cement their own status within their peer community, and also to put down what they view as a potential (usually imagined) threat.

See we always assume there's some kind of productive value system behind destructive behaviour, in fact there needn't be, and then again if you look at it from the perspective of the abuser it is productive, since it gives them more power within their own group.

AngryBadger

5starpool wrote: »

Resistance is futile!!!!

So's your face

Dennis the Stone

Emos are such conformists. A lot of people who like to harp on endlessly about their individuality are the biggest conformists of all.

constitutionus

AngryBadger wrote: »

It's fantastic that we live in a country where people have the RIGHT to be individuals, choose their own destiny and all that, but there are two points to remember.

1) Individuality is wasted on most people. The majority of people don't REALLY want to be individuals because being too much of an individual seperates you from the herd.

2) Oftentimes being an individual DOES mean doing the same thing as everyone else. For example if I decide to go to college, I'm making the best decision for myself (i.e. being an individual), but I'm also making a choic which is identical to the choice made my thousands of other people, and yet I'm still being an individual.

So it's difficult to know when people are truly being their own individual, or just another lemming.

part 2 reminds me of a conversation i had with a young one in the pub ages ago. she was maintaining that my clothing was conformist whereas i said "no im wearing what i want, its just that at the time it was what was considered trendy by other people". when fashion moved on i still wore what i liked but the trend of other people had moved in a different direction

sometimes you can still be individual even though it may not look like it

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

kinda funny that a thread on individuality turns into a thread on fashion

the 21st century, it's metrosexual.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Tago Mago wrote: »

Emos are such conformists. A lot of people who like to harp on endlessly about their individuality are the biggest conformists of all.

They are? Keep talking....

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

I'm such a non comformist that I Will join your dance group.

constitutionus

Mordeth wrote: »

kinda funny that a thread on individuality turns into a thread on fashion

the 21st century, it's metrosexual.

just WATCH what happens when two young ones enter a room wearing the same dress :D

Bendihorse

Live and let live is right, but i think one ceases to be individual in the broad minded sense of the word, if they actively work at being 'individual' so people preceive them to be just that.

Individuals to me, are people that do what they do because they want to, not because they are trying to conform to some form or set of principles.

People who spend 60mins of their time picking out clothes that DONT conform, are just as bad as the D4 head that spent over 60mins trying to achieve a 'bed head' look with her hair!

Dennis the Stone

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

They are? Keep talking....

Well my little brother's friends are proud to call themselves 'emo'.
They wear the same hoodies, listen to the exact same music [I'll keep back my opinion of this music] and watch the same films. They all turned 'emo' over the course of one Summer, so it was obviously a case of monkey see, monkey do. They think they're rebels but they are all spoiled brats

Overheal

Tago Mago wrote: »

Well my little brother's friends are proud to call themselves 'emo'.
They wear the same hoodies, listen to the exact same music [I'll keep back my opinion of this music] and watch the same films. They all turned 'emo' over the course of one Summer, so it was obviously a case of monkey see, monkey do. They think they're rebels but they are all spoiled brats

could be worse; seen the kid 'rap' gangs and the txt spk on bebo these days? It makes me want to kill them all.

AngryBadger

constitutionus wrote: »

part 2 reminds me of a conversation i had with a young one in the pub ages ago. she was maintaining that my clothing was conformist whereas i said "no im wearing what i want, its just that at the time it was what was considered trendy by other people".

And I'll bet that after you took her back to yours for pizza...extra sausage

Dammit conn, leave some wimmins for the rest of us will ya

Earthhorse

Individuality isn't overrated, however, certain individuals are.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Why are we constantley verbally absuing everyone who's different then?

Clue is in the question.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Tago Mago wrote: »

Well my little brother's friends are proud to call themselves 'emo'.
They wear the same hoodies, listen to the exact same music [I'll keep back my opinion of this music] and watch the same films. They all turned 'emo' over the course of one Summer, so it was obviously a case of monkey see, monkey do. They think they're rebels but they are all spoiled brats

Sounds more of a teenage thing tbh. I just used emos as an example.

easrthhorse - The quesstion then, is: Why praise a country that embraces individuality and then abuse people who are individual?

AngryBadger

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

easrthhorse - The quesstion then, is: Why praise a country that embraces individuality and then abuse people who are individual?

If that's the question the answer's easy.

A country that embraces individuality, embraces individual freedoms, so its people can follow whatever religion/sexuality/whatever that they choose to. So in a broad sense, from the perspective of the herd on the whole that's great, it allows a relatively cohesive operation of society.

Getting down to the finer details, with smaller numbers of people and the picture's very different. If you put two people in a group, one of whom is dressed similarly to the rest of the group but unknown to them, the other has completely different attire to the group and is not known to them. Chap A (similar but unknown) will be viewed as a safer option than Chap B (different and unknown). Chap A can also further entrench himself within that group by abusing chap B since that in some warped way makes him even more "like" the group.

I'm over-simplifying to make the point, but if you expand this to incorporate more realistic situations and motivations, it actually satisfies most scenarios.

Caoimhín

Who is this Emo fella? He sounds a bit weird.

leninbenjamin

individuals are essential to any society. they are the ones who bring progress, via new ideas, inventions, starting off new trends etc. the individual is much more important to society than the conformist, because it's the individual who gets the ball rolling.

our fundamental flaw as a nation is that we lack enough individuals, particularly in relation to the economy. no new ideas = no new products to sell = no growth. that's part of the reason we've had to look so much to FDI as our saviour.

Sangre

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

It's nice to live in a country, we're told, where you have the freedom to express yourself. And fair play to people who can break away from the herd and not be sheep, so to speak. Is this just lip-service, or do we really mean it?

But Ireland, be it good or bad, is a very conformed country, and my impression is that most Irish like it that way. We're intimidated by what's different. Most boardsies are guilty of this to some point, which is one of the reasons why I'm starting this thread. Someone even had "death to Emos" or "Emo hater" in his signature at one point. But hey - emos (and other groups, for that matter: gays, goths, hippies, Grafton St buskers) are all just people who express themsleves, be it right or wrong, and should be respected for doing so.

Should they be forced to conform to everyone elese's standards and fvck individulaity!? Or are Dubliners just anti-expression of indiviuality or freedom? Are we so scared that conformity is so important?

Lots of questions - discuss!!

so essentially you're saying that by hating one sub section of society that you must also hate the concept of individuality? not quite sure how you made that leap.

Sangre: I hate racists
Ikky Poo2: Don't commit your hate crimes here sangre!!!

kwestfan08

Always remember, you are individual, just like everyone else

leninbenjamin

kwestfan08 wrote: »

Always remember, you are individual, just like everyone else

pfft... conformist :rolleyes:

Overheal

leninbenjamin wrote: »

individuals are essential to any society. they are the ones who bring progress, via new ideas, inventions, starting off new trends etc. the individual is much more important to society than the conformist, because it's the individual who gets the ball rolling.

our fundamental flaw as a nation is that we lack enough individuals, particularly in relation to the economy. no new ideas = no new products to sell = no growth. that's part of the reason we've had to look so much to FDI as our saviour.

at the same time conformists are great because they do what you tell them

leninbenjamin

Overheal wrote: »

at the same time conformists are great because they do what you tell them

indeed. i forgot to say there exists a healthy balance between the two.

AngryBadger

Sangre wrote: »

so essentially you're saying that by hating one sub section of society that you must also hate the concept of individuality? not quite sure how you made that leap.
Sangre: I hate racists
Ikky Poo2: Don't commit your hate crimes here sangre!!!

Well yeah that's pretty much the whole point. You can't just hate one aprticular demographic but be all for the idea of individualism. I suppose technically you could argue that you hate racists (hypothetical I realise) but everyone esle is fine so you're ok with individualism, but you don't want anything to do with racists...

For me that's too much at odds with the spirit of the whole thing.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Sangre wrote: »

so essentially you're saying that by hating one sub section of society that you must also hate the concept of individuality? not quite sure how you made that leap.

Sangre: I hate racists
Ikky Poo2: Don't commit your hate crimes here sangre!!!

Essentially what I'm saying is that people aren't free to act in a free society, assuming that they abide by the law, of course, societal law will kick in and they will indeed wind up being hated.

Sangre: I hate racists.
Ikky Poo2: Booooring!

WhiteWashMan

AngryBadger wrote: »

It's fantastic that we live in a country where people have the RIGHT to be individuals, choose their own destiny and all that, but there are two points to remember.

1) Individuality is wasted on most people. The majority of people don't REALLY want to be individuals because being too much of an individual seperates you from the herd.

2) Oftentimes being an individual DOES mean doing the same thing as everyone else. For example if I decide to go to college, I'm making the best decision for myself (i.e. being an individual), but I'm also making a choic which is identical to the choice made my thousands of other people, and yet I'm still being an individual.

So it's difficult to know when people are truly being their own individual, or just another lemming.

point 1
you are suggesting that to be an individual that you can have little if anything in common with anyone else.

why do you think individuality is wasted on most people. thats a pretty big statement. i fail to see how you could ever have conducted such an in depth survey on 'most people'.
i also have no idea why you think tht most people are worried about herd mentality.

i think you will find that most people just do whatever they want. if what they want is the same as lots of other people, then i fail to see why making a common decision is seen as not being individual.
people are not stuck into catagories and then make a mass decision to be something. people make individual decisions, and then people lik eyou come along and put them into catagories that they never asked for.

id suggest that some people like to catagorise other people, and then paint them all with a certain petrolium based substance on a brush.
so is the threat to individualism not the concept of a common decision, but actually, the individuals who decide the catagories?

So it's difficult to know when people are truly being their own individual, or just another lemming.

surely being a lemming is an individual choice?

and i find it amusing that you would use the word lemming. youre suggesting that people who make a common decision are simply herd creatures, devoid of all individual thought.


what do you have to to do or be these days to be considered 'an individual' anyway?

do you need to be gay? nah, too common.
religious? nah, too common?
wear insane clothes? nah, anyone can do that?
perhaps be the only black person inthe nazi party? certainly an amusing idea, but can we really catagorize someone as being an individual based on something that they are, but which they have no choice about?


perhaps a better way of viewing the world is to think of everyone as an individual, but some individuals have a common theme.

and just for the catagory clouded people out there, maybe you can put everyone in an individual catagory, and take it from there?

Davidius

Emos and (wanna be) scumbags are pretty much the opposite of individuals. :pac:

Wibbs

Jeez fierce deep altogether. I reckon for a lot of people individuality is overrated. We are a social species after all and most feel happier associated with some group, mainstream or not. Too many choices confuse some. It's good to have them mind, but choice brings responsibility which some find hard to process.

WhiteWashMan

i find that those people who are grossly indiviualistic tend to be emotionally unstabe anyway. they feel they have to exaggerate certain qualities in order to try and make their presence felt in the world.

some people are happy not to be in the limelight, to be noted in society as different. becuase some people have more important things in their life to do than worry about what other people think of them.

Black Swan

Thank the gods I've never met a personality clone. Viva la difference!

challengemaster

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Thank the gods I've never met a personality clone. Viva la difference!

Vive*

Agreed, though!

Black Swan

Talking about differences, there's no one like CM!

Fremen

I think it's actually quite rare to meet a real "individual". Goths, skinheads, rockers, stoners and so on might claim to be, but really they're just small subcultures with their own rules, just like other societies. Here's an interesting link to a project which tried to document this photographically:
http://www.exactitudes.com/

I think the real "individuals" would often be considered freewheeling-bat****-insane by most normal people, and rightly so. Man is a social animal with societal rules. People who don't conform to these rules will be difficult to deal with most of the time.

WhiteWashMan

so, does it then depend on your location with regard to others?

is an individual someone that doesnt fit into the social rules?

im still ata loss as to what an individual is. i think the above descriptions is, quite frankly, crap. an individual isnt someone who just doesnt fit in.

again, people catagorising the masses to justify the singlular.

jeez, its 9:30 am here and im typing this crap. time to shower and go to work!

OpenYourEyes

ireland is unfortunatly riddled with the cancer of conformity!

not that having large groups of similar ppl is a bad thing- e.g. skangers, emos, D4s, culchies etc

but its when they refuse to respect to acknowledge others individuality/ differances is where we get the problems!

that said when youv got pre-conceived conformity you know your in trouble ( when ppl change completely over a summer etc)

as opposed to loads of people being similar, and THEN becoming a large group- accidental conformity if you will

WhiteWashMan

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

ireland is unfortunatly riddled with the cancer of conformity!

i wouldnt have thought so.

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

but its when they refuse to respect to acknowledge others individuality/ differances is where we get the problems!

now, thats an entirely different issue, the intolerance of people. and thats not a catagory thing either, thats an..... ironically enough.... individual thing.

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

that said when youv got pre-conceived conformity you know your in trouble ( when ppl change completely over a summer etc)

again, i disagree. people change all the time. young people change more than older people becuase they gain new experiences every day. you meet someone with a certain image that you like, then you make a decision that youd like to do something similar etc.
make no mistake, we all change. it has nothing to do with conformity. we are human beings. is learning to speak english a conformity? i mean, we learn it from our parents, we mimic, we try out, we disregard what we dont like, we take on board what we like.

its the disregarding and the keeping that makes us individuals. do we take on the values of our parents? our peers? our teachers? why does dressing like your peers make you a conformist? should i dress like a trappist monk, just to appease someones idea of non conformity?

thats just stupid. the breeze would freeze my balls off.

BraziliaNZ

When I were a lad, you were only allowed have shaved back and sides, wear either tracksuits or jeans and airmax type shoes and maybe a hoody. And the only acceptable music was "Rave", UB40, and Bob Marley. Anything else and you would be considered gay or weird and maybe get attacked. If you had your hair a little bit long you would get verbally abused by other kids on the streets and at school. Is it still like this? Oh and what do the so-called "Streetwise" kids listen to nowadays? Is it still squeaky voice techno stuff?