Carlow Bypass (Part of M9)

Zoney · 08-04-2008 11:56pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

Waterford receives more in social transfers then it pays out in taxes, why should the state increase this percentage on vanity projects like a new university?

How do you suggest changing that situation other than paying for facilities that will bring the region forward? As long as Waterford (or whatever other "poorer" area you choose) is part of the state, it makes sense not just to subsidise the area (pay more for services/infrastructure than is taken in tax from the area) but to invest in it to bring it up to scratch.

The M9 will benefit the Southeast immensely. How is that not good for Dublin too despite the initial cost? More commerce facilitated by infrastructure such as the M9 will help the southeast bring in more revenues. A more prosperous southeast is beneficial for the entire State.

One can certainly make arguments against a Uni in Waterford, although I do not think they are good arguments. However, deriding the notion as a vanity project is a cop-out. People in the southeast are looking for a University as a University, not some kind of trophy. At worst you could suggest that WIT folk are looking out for themselves, although I would say that's not being fair to most of them.

fricatus · 09-04-2008 8:33am

invincibleirish wrote: »

speaking of Waterford port, care to explain its latest activities?

http://www.corkindependent.com/local-news/local-news/port-of-cork/

Does CIÉ own the Port of Cork or have a large interest in it? If so, I have an idea why - otherwise, no clue. Maybe open a new thread in the Infrastructure forum? I'm no expert (even in an amateur sense) on ports, so you might be better off getting more informed opinion there.

invincibleirish wrote: »

1. you site shannon as an example of good planning? is it? i think not.

I never mentioned good planning. My words were "high quality", which I suppose is vague... what I meant is in terms of economic activity. The area has an international airport and a high concentration of well known quality employers.

invincibleirish wrote: »

2. you site that the existing road network can handle dublin based traffic via
the N11-N30-N25, then why cant this route be focusedd on instead of a new Motorway?

I never said it couldn't. All we ever wanted in Waterford was a motorway or dual carriageway link to Dublin. The N11 would have fit the bill perfectly from our point of view, as would an M8 shoved southwards towards Kilkenny, with a spur off towards Waterford. IIRC, it was objections from Carlow and Kilkenny that led to the present M9 route being chosen.

invincibleirish wrote: »

3. you talk about realising Waterfords and the southeast potential, this has to be balanced out with the nation as a whole, as you can see here

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/economy/current/regincome.pdf

Waterford receives more in social transfers then it pays out in taxes, why should the state increase this percentage on vanity projects like a new university?

We don't want social transfers! We don't want to be living on bloody welfare. We want infrastructural investment, on a par with what goes into the likes of Limerick and Galway, so that we too can compete at that level.

All we need in the south-east is improved access (which at long last is coming), a properly funded university, and a little more help from the IDA (facilitated greatly by the first two items). So many talented people leave this area to go to university elsewhere, and even those who would wish to come home find a lack of opportunities in their way. I don't expect us ever to have the same employment opportunities as Dublin, but we should be about the level of Galway, and we're not! That has to be addressed.

invincibleirish wrote: »

ive brought this ridiculously off topic BTW, my apoligies.

Oh look, it livens up the forum... I'm sure people will get over it

Bards · 10-04-2008 9:05am

.....Meanwhile, back on topic

According to the Carlow Nationalist it will open in the 1st or 2nd week in May
=========================================================

http://www.carlow-nationalist.ie/new...ncwcw&cat=news

Bypass scheduled to open in May but will Dempsey do the honours?
By: Suzanne Pender

TRAFFIC gridlock into Carlow town should soon become a dim and distant memory with the opening of the Carlow Bypass now just weeks away.

Carlow County Council confirmed this week that the bypass will open “on the first or second week in May”, well ahead of schedule.

“It’s almost ready to open and we would expect it to be the first or second week in May,” said Director of Services John Carley.

However just who will perform that official opening remains a mystery, councillors joked at Monday’s meeting of the local authority.

With the prospect of a cabinet reshuffle looming large, current Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey’s diary is anything but certain with Brian Cowen poised to become Taoiseach.

However the smart money would still have Minister Dempsey taking a trip to Carlow as Transport Minister in May to finally ease the frustrations of Dublin to Waterford travellers.

The 19km of high-quality dual carriage-way will bypass the town of Carlow with three grade-separated junctions at Powerstown (N9), Rathcrogue (N80) and Prumplestown (N9).

The bypass consists of 11 road bridges, one river crossing, one rail crossing as well as a pedestrian cyclist underpass at Rathcrogue, thus allowing access to Tinryland GAA Club.

Chris_533976 · 10-04-2008 4:30pm

Bards wrote: »

.....Meanwhile, back on topic

The 19km of high-quality dual carriage-way will bypass the town of Carlow with three grade-separated junctions at Powerstown (N9), Rathcrogue (N80) and Prumplestown (N9).

aarrgg get the facts rights its opening as M. Stupid newspaper.

road_high · 11-04-2008 7:28pm

The final section kicks off;

http://www.kilkennycoco.ie/eng/Services/Roads/N9-N10_Kilcullen_to_Waterford_Road_Scheme_-_Phase_4_Knocktopher_to_Powerstown_-_Main_Works_-_Design_Build_-_Contract.html

County Kilkenny goes from having the worst National road network in the country to having one of the best..

Also more info here; http://n9-n10kilcullen-waterford.ie/

cargo · 13-04-2008 1:04pm

has anybody got anything to say about the Carlow Bypass itself or the opening date possibly? Think some people on here need to open a new thread and take their debate on the critical traffic volumes for a motorway justification to a SEPARATE thread as it does not belong here.

JupiterKid · 13-04-2008 9:59pm

Apparently the Carlow Bypass is due to be opened during the first half of May. So relief for Carlow town is now in sight.:)

dymonaz · 15-04-2008 1:19am

So, I managed to read all the discussion (instead of going to sleep) and I'm amazed by one single fact - nobody has mentioned HOW MUCH exactly does it cost to build a motorway and how much a HQDC.

And the question is not only the money - for a road to be a motorway it not only has to be "high volume" and "propper standards" - the other major factor is how many people live around it. And by this I mean that high volume roads should not be built next to villages for safety reasons. Motorways are there to allow for quick access between distant locations. Now, I'm not sure about the N20, I have only taken it once and I don't remember it too well, but if most of the 14k traffic is local - than what's the point of the motorway there? And if 6k of the Mulinavat of traffic is only "passing by" than there IS a need for a motorway. Simple as this. And since it is able to bypass all the smaller towns (less population) and is HQDC - why not at a substantially minimal cost build it to the propper standard?

I go Dublin to Dungarvan, Co. Waterford once/twice a month. Lately I started taking N11-N30-N25, cause I don't need the extra adrenaline. And the opposite - if I'm taking someone with me, especially for the first time, I sometimes give them the "joy ride" of the N9. Just to scare them a little. N9 is BY FAR THE WORST road I've driven in my life. I mean out of the "primary" routes. It's supposed to be one of the most important routes and it is complete crap. And in Ireland I haven't taken only the routes which lead up to Sligo - Limerick, Galway, Cork I've visited from Dublin and from other places while simply travelling, by taking N18 and other more local "primary" routes. Nothing is as bad as N9. And it's the last of inter-urbans - so why not do it properly? By the time they finish it - other inter-urbans will already have a need for an upgrade and become motorways. By the time these are finished - the M9 will have a need to become a 3-lane motorway. Take a look at German road network and learn.

Getting back to the topic of local vs passing traffic. As I said - I'm taking the N9 quite often and it happened to me a gazillion times, that I get stuck between one and the same car between Paulstown and Waterford, travelling at 60kph (80 is safe on most of it). And if by luck I do manage to overtake it (there are 2-3 streches where you can do it safely. Withing the distance of almost 60km), in 5kms I get stuck behind another car. Traveling to Waterford. Or back. And the car I overtook catches up. Repeat till you get bored.

I once took regional roads from Dungarvan to Clonmel to Cashel to Dublin via N8. It took me some 10 mins longer than taking the shortest route (N9). And the delay is mostly because of the traffic.

I suppose the main discussion was wether it needs to be a motorway - but this can only be answered if you show the difference in money spent/needed, not only the traffic volumes. Some EU money could be squeezed out for that too, as it could be designated as a secondary European route (connecting E01/E201/E30/E20), though I'm not sure about the procedures there.

Anyways, happy days about the Carlow bypass part getting opened! I thought it's going to open in Q3, as I read that on the NRA site, but last time driving past all the works it really looked like it's pretty much done - good job! I'll miss the offlicense in Carlow on the main road (at the opposite side of the road of Abrakebabra - not sure about the street names there) - it's been my friend for a long time

fricatus · 15-04-2008 1:41pm

dymonaz wrote: »

As I said - I'm taking the N9 quite often and it happened to me a gazillion times, that I get stuck between one and the same car between Paulstown and Waterford, travelling at 60kph (80 is safe on most of it). And if by luck I do manage to overtake it (there are 2-3 streches where you can do it safely. Withing the distance of almost 60km), in 5kms I get stuck behind another car. Traveling to Waterford. Or back. And the car I overtook catches up. Repeat till you get bored.

Point well made. Other roads have the odd bad stretch, but the N9 from the Paulstown N10 junction all the way to Waterford is uniformly bad, and like dymonaz said, there are only two or three overtaking opportunities along the entire 60 km. If there's anything coming the other way, you are stuck.

That section of road needs a wholesale realignment anyway, and the marginal cost of making it a motorway the whole way is probably not all that high. That's just my guess, but I asked before if someone could produce figures to prove me right or wrong, but nobody did.

Mods: why not split this thread into a Carlow Bypass one and a "Do we need the M9?" one at this stage?

Victor · 15-04-2008 6:49pm

Lets keep things relevant to the topic please.

invincibleirish · 16-04-2008 12:09am

fricatus wrote: »

Point well made. Other roads have the odd bad stretch, but the N9 from the Paulstown N10 junction all the way to Waterford is uniformly bad, and like dymonaz said, there are only two or three overtaking opportunities along the entire 60 km. If there's anything coming the other way, you are stuck.

That section of road needs a wholesale realignment anyway, and the marginal cost of making it a motorway the whole way is probably not all that high. That's just my guess, but I asked before if someone could produce figures to prove me right or wrong, but nobody did.

Mods: why not split this thread into a Carlow Bypass one and a "Do we need the M9?" one at this stage?

So what?, given the numbers involved, a new S2 road would easily satisfy your overtaking desires and comfortably handle those 6k vehicles a day.

fricatus · 16-04-2008 10:51am

invincibleirish wrote: »

So what?, given the numbers involved, a new S2 road would easily satisfy your overtaking desires and comfortably handle those 6k vehicles a day.

Once again I make the point: why build a totally new S2 road when you can build a motorway for a small additional cost*, and reap the twin benefits of added safety and future proofing.

* I'm surmising of course... I'd love to see the cost differential between, say, 10 km of new S2 versus 10 km of new motorway.

invincibleirish · 16-04-2008 6:46pm

fricatus wrote: »

Once again I make the point: why build a totally new S2 road when you can build a motorway for a small additional cost*, and reap the twin benefits of added safety and future proofing.

* I'm surmising of course... I'd love to see the cost differential between, say, 10 km of new S2 versus 10 km of new motorway.

I hear this phrase "future proofing" bandied around in relation to transport projects (usually where current numbers dont add up) as justification for over elaborate schemes & projects.

My POV on this and every other thread is simple, Lets build what is needed first.

a Motorway with something like a 55k capacity to replace a 6k road? nonsense.

L1011 · 16-04-2008 7:12pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

a Motorway with something like a 55k capacity to replace a 6k road? nonsense.

It'd be like the Ballymena Bypass....

mysterious · 16-04-2008 7:16pm

fricatus wrote: »

Once again I make the point: why build a totally new S2 road when you can build a motorway for a small additional cost*, and reap the twin benefits of added safety and future proofing.

* I'm surmising of course... I'd love to see the cost differential between, say, 10 km of new S2 versus 10 km of new motorway.

Well S2 road can carry up to 13,500 or thereabouts.

2+1 or 2+2 would be sufficient can carry up to 19,500 I believe, again these figures are not on the dot figures. But regardless the N9 wouldbe future proofed. Don't get confused with the cost of a 2+2 and a full blown motorway, a motorway is much more expensive to build. NRA did say the current 2+1 and 2+2 are not much difference in cost, as the landtake and width and design of both road types are much the same.

Surely since Waterford will have two HQDCs one could of been least left S2.

cargo · 17-04-2008 11:59am

So lads this all means it opens when???

fricatus · 17-04-2008 3:18pm

cargo wrote: »

So lads this all means it opens when???

Last word from the Carlow Nationalist said that it would be opening the first or second week of May.

(Apologies by the way for my off-topic post yesterday after the thread split... mods, could you move it to the other thread and I'll answer the post from mysterious above?)

Bards · 17-04-2008 6:13pm

mysterious wrote: »

Well S2 road can carry up to 13,500 or thereabouts.

2+1 or 2+2 would be sufficient can carry up to 19,500 I believe, again these figures are not on the dot figures. But regardless the N9 wouldbe future proofed. Don't get confused with the cost of a 2+2 and a full blown motorway, a motorway is much more expensive to build. NRA did say the current 2+1 and 2+2 are not much difference in cost, as the landtake and width and design of both road types are much the same.

Surely since Waterford will have two HQDCs one could of been least left S2.

As starter of this Thread.. This is about the Carlow Bypass for the last time please keep ON TOPIC

road_high · 17-04-2008 9:14pm

mysterious wrote: »

Surely since Waterford will have two HQDCs one could of been least left S2.

Since when is Waterford city getting " two motorways"?

The N11 Dual Carriageway ends south of Gorey, about 70KM from Waterford so to say that it is being served by two motorways is completely incorrect.

mysterious · 17-04-2008 9:46pm

mfitzy wrote: »

Since when is Waterford city getting " two motorways"?
The N11 Dual Carriageway ends south of Gorey, about 70KM from Waterford so to say that it is being served by two motorways is completely incorrect.

It's not incorrect, your just been ignorant.

Enniscorthy and New Ross are getting DC bypass. New Ross bypass will connect to the Ferrybank dual carriegway. It will be HQDC the whole way.

Another section of N11 is starting at the end of this year! Can't remember which. but I don't want to get off topic. Now do I.:)

mysterious · 17-04-2008 9:48pm

Bards wrote: »

As starter of this Thread.. This is about the Carlow Bypass for the last time please keep ON TOPIC

Okay Carlow bypass should get HQDC, now anything past Paulstown should be 2+1 or 2+2.

Carlow Bypass (Part of M9)

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