Carlow Bypass (Part of M9)

Bards

11 May 2006
Delivery in 24 months will remove 9000 vehicles from Carlow's streets

N9 Waterford to Dublin Motorway to take 56-minutes off journey

The new 19km Carlow Bypass project started today (11th May, 2006) and will see over 9,000 vehicles a day removed from Carlow's streets. The project, which will be completed in just 24-months, is also another major step in the N9 Waterford to Dublin Motorway. The N9 will open in 2010 and take 56-minutes off the Waterford to Dublin journey.

Speaking in Carlow where he turned the sod on the Bypass, Transport Minister, Martin Cullen said: "Inside the next three and a half years, we will build 110km of new road from Waterford to Dublin and in doing so, transform the lives of people who have been taking this journey for many years.

"The Carlow Bypass becomes the second leg of the N9 to have started, with the Waterford City Bypass now also in construction. The Carlow to Waterford section is next, with work to start on the first stage of this section later this year. The final leg, Carlow to Kilcullen and Carlow to Knocktopher which are well advanced and through statutory procedure stage, will follow. These projects and the newly improved Naas Road only weeks away from completion, mean that by 2010, 56-minutes will be knocked off the journey from Waterford to Dublin. That's real improvement."

Minister Cullen said many people would gain from the Carlow Bypass. He said: "It will mean time savings of 30 minutes to people in peak time journeys. 9,000 vehicles a day, many of them large trucks, will be removed from Carlow town, freeing up streets like Barrack Street, Tullow Street and Dublin Street. This is particularly significant, given the expansion of Carlow as a shopping destination in recent times. It is also important to emphasise again that better roads have a huge road safety dividend."

Minister Cullen also announced an update on the Government's road investment programme. "With the Carlow Bypass now starting, it means work is underway on 25 road projects totalling 234kms. Work will start on 15 new projects this year, trebling the average number of starts in the past three years. 13 other key projects will also be completed this year. And crucially, we are delivering projects, on budget and ahead of schedule.

"Projects like this are not just about tarmac, diggers or concrete. We are not building roads to admire them - we are building them because they make it possible to protect and grow job opportunities and to protect and grow community life in all parts of our country", he said.

Attending the sod turning, NRA Chairman, Peter Malone said: "Work kicks off today on the billion euro road linking Dublin and Waterford which, when completed, will radically transform the road network serving the southeast of the country.

"It is one of 5 major Inter-Urban motorways to be delivered by the National Roads Authority (NRA) under the Governments Transport 21 Plan.

The Carlow bypass is the one of a four- phase 110km road project to commence on the N9, a route of both national and regional importance. When completed in 24 months the benefits will be immediate, not only to the people of Carlow and Kildare but for everyone travelling between the Capital and the Viking City of Waterford. It will provide for much safer travel for motorists while at the same time facilitating economic and tourism growth in the region. The evidence of this can be seen across the country with the roll out of the biggest ever roads programme in the history of the state", he said.

ENDS

Chris_533976

Good to hear, pity its not going to be M classification but at least they're fixing it

spacetweek

Chris_533976 wrote:

Good to hear, pity its not going to be M classification but at least they're fixing it

Though apparently it's being built to motorway standards (HQDC). Just as good, tbh.

PoolDude

"With the Carlow Bypass now starting, it means work is underway on 25 road projects totalling 234kms. Work will start on 15 new projects this year, trebling the average number of starts in the past three years.

What are they - There are 13 below including this one, so removing this one what are the other 3?




Scheme Road Type Length (km) Estimated Completion (Quarter/Year)
M3 Clonee/Kells (PPP Scheme) Motorway 60
2009

N4 Dromod Rooskey 2+1 Carriage 11
2008

N6 Kinnegad to Athlone Phase 2 Dual Carriageway 29
2008

N7 Limerick Southern Ring Road Phase 2 (PPP Scheme) Dual Carriageway 10
2009

N7 Nenagh to Limerick Dual Carriageway 38
2009

N8 Cullahill to Cashel Dual Carriageway 40
2009

N8 Cashel to Mitchelstown Dual Carriageway 37
2009

N9 Kilcullen/Waterford (Northern Section) Phase 1 Dual Carriageway 19
2008

N9 Kilcullen/Waterford (Southern Section) Phase 1 Dual Carriageway 24
2009

N11 Enniskerry Junction Improvements Footbridge -
2008

N11 Kilpeddar Delgany Junction Improvements Junction -
2008

M50 Upgrade Scheme Phase 2 (PPP Scheme) Motorway 24
2010

N80 Mountmellick Relief Road Single Carriageway 1
2008

jd

spacetweek wrote:

Though apparently it's being built to motorway standards (HQDC). Just as good, tbh.

100 vs 120 km/hr unless a special limit is applied

Victor

I'd love to know how this one section is going to shorten the journey by 56 minutes.

nordydan

56 minutes would the overall savings along the entire upgraded N9

Traffic

Work started on the bypass months ago so preporatory works associated with construction ie. tree removal, fencing is well underway. Yesterday must of been the photo opp

Chris_533976

PoolDude wrote:

"With the Carlow Bypass now starting, it means work is underway on 25 road projects totalling 234kms. Work will start on 15 new projects this year, trebling the average number of starts in the past three years.

What are they - There are 13 below including this one, so removing this one what are the other 3?




Scheme Road Type Length (km) Estimated Completion (Quarter/Year)
M3 Clonee/Kells (PPP Scheme) Motorway 60
2009

N4 Dromod Rooskey 2+1 Carriage 11
2008

N6 Kinnegad to Athlone Phase 2 Dual Carriageway 29
2008

N7 Limerick Southern Ring Road Phase 2 (PPP Scheme) Dual Carriageway 10
2009

N7 Nenagh to Limerick Dual Carriageway 38
2009

N8 Cullahill to Cashel Dual Carriageway 40
2009

N8 Cashel to Mitchelstown Dual Carriageway 37
2009

N9 Kilcullen/Waterford (Northern Section) Phase 1 Dual Carriageway 19
2008

N9 Kilcullen/Waterford (Southern Section) Phase 1 Dual Carriageway 24
2009

N11 Enniskerry Junction Improvements Footbridge -
2008

N11 Kilpeddar Delgany Junction Improvements Junction -
2008

M50 Upgrade Scheme Phase 2 (PPP Scheme) Motorway 24
2010

N80 Mountmellick Relief Road Single Carriageway 1
2008

**maybe** the Sarsfield and Bandon Road flyovers in Cork? I dunno.

Bards

Here are two that started this year
==========================

N5 Charlestown Bypass The Charlestown bypass will be 18 km of single carriageway from the townland of Cloonlara, at the eastern end of the Swinford Bypass to Currinah on the existing N5 in Co. Roscommon between Carracastle and Ballaghaderreen. It will pass 1.6 km south of Charlestown and 0.3 km south of Carracastle. The contractor is SIAC Wills N5 JV and construction commenced in February, 2006

N25 Waterford City Bypass (PPP) The project includes a new river crossing, a cable stay bridge with an overall length of approximately 475 m, of the River Suir in the vicinity of Grannagh, i.e. close to the location of the existing N24/N9 Junction to the North West of Waterford City. The bypass commences in the vicinity of Kilmeaden to the West of the City, crosses the River Suir at Grannagh and ties in with the existing N25 to the East of Slieverue Village. The project includes a new connection, known as the Western Link, which connects the By-Pass to industrial areas to the South West of the City and links of the N9 and N24 to the Grannagh Interchange. The scheme construction includes approximately 23 km of dual carriageway and 14 km of single carriageway. The contract was awarded to Celtic Roads Group and construction commenced in April 2006.

Borzoi

Victor wrote:

I'd love to know how this one section is going to shorten the journey by 56 minutes.

Have you been through Carlow at peak times? Plenty of times I've been stuck there for more than that - really it's as bad as Drogheda bridge used to be.

Don

Fool 5000

Carlow bypass map ;http://n9-n10kilcullen-waterford.ie/public_consultations/section_C_pc3.htm

Waterford/Kilcullen map ;http://n9-n10kilcullen-waterford.ie/study-area-map.htm

paul moore

I have been down there 5 weeks now,setting up the GPS for the job.(Trimble)
Starting to set out the perm.fence line now,Its a big job,they say 21 months or so !!

mike65

Victor wrote:

I'd love to know how this one section is going to shorten the journey by 56 minutes.

Try going through on Friday afternoon at 4 pm! Or rather don't, take a detour round the senic routes.

Mike.

murphaph

I would have thought they'd have bypassed Castledermot at the same time, but I don't think that's part of this phase of the scheme.

Fool 5000

Cullen Turns Sod on Carlow Bypass


11th May, 2006


Delivery in 24 months will remove 9000 vehicles from Carlow’s streets
N9 Waterford to Dublin Motorway to take 56 minutes off journey

The new 19 km Carlow Bypass project started today (11th May, 2006) and will see over 9,000 vehicles a day removed from Carlow’s streets. The project, which will be completed in just 24 months, is also another major step in the development of the N9 Waterford to Dublin Motorway. The N9 will open in 2010 and take 56 minutes off the Waterford to Dublin journey.

Speaking in Carlow where he turned the sod on the Bypass, Transport Minister, Martin Cullen said:

“Inside the next three and a half years, we will build 110 km of new road from Waterford to Dublin and in doing so, transform the lives of people who have been taking this journey for many years.

The Carlow Bypass is the first leg of the N9 to have started, which links the Waterford City Bypass now also in construction. The Carlow to Waterford section is next, with work to start on the first stage of this section later this year. The final leg, Kilcullen to Carlow and Carlow to Knocktopher which are well advanced and through statutory procedure stage, will follow. These projects and the newly improved Naas Road only weeks away from completion, mean that by 2010, 56 minutes will be knocked off the journey from Waterford to Dublin. That’s real improvement.”

Minister Cullen said many people would gain from the Carlow Bypass. He said:

“It will mean time savings of 30 minutes to people in peak time journeys. 9,000 vehicles a day, many of them large trucks, will be removed from Carlow town, freeing up streets like Barrack Street, Tullow Street and Dublin Street. This is particularly significant, given the expansion of Carlow as a shopping destination in recent times. It is also important to emphasise again that better roads have a huge road safety dividend.”
Minister Cullen also announced an update on the Government’s road investment programme. He announced,

“With the Carlow Bypass now starting, it means work is underway on 25 road projects totalling 234 kms. Work will start on 15 new projects this year, trebling the average number of starts in the past three years. 13 other key projects will also be completed this year. And crucially, we are delivering projects, on budget and ahead of schedule.

Projects like this are not just about tarmac, diggers or concrete. We are not building roads to admire them - we are building them because they make it possible to protect and grow job opportunities and to protect and grow community life in all parts of our country”

Attending the sod turning, NRA Chairman, Peter Malone said:

“Work kicks off today on the billion euro road linking Dublin and Waterford which, when completed, will radically transform the road network serving the southeast of the country. It is one of 5 major Inter-Urban motorways to be delivered by the National Roads Authority (NRA) under the Government's Transport 21 Plan. The Carlow bypass is the one of a four- phase 110 km road project to commence on the N9, a route of both national and regional importance. When completed in 24 months the benefits will be immediate, not only to the people of Carlow and Kildare but for everyone travelling between the Capital and the Viking City of Waterford. It will provide for much safer travel for motorists while at the same time facilitating economic and tourism growth in the region. The evidence of this can be seen across the country with the roll out of the biggest ever roads programme in the history of the state”.
For further information please contact 01 6658744/086 8230600

Carlow Bypass – highlights

19 km of new high quality dual carriageway
Three grade separated junctions at Powerstown (N9), Rathcrogue (N80) and Prumplestown (N9)
13 road bridges, one river crossing, one rail crossing, one farm accommodation bridge and two farm accommodation underpasses as well as a pedestrian cyclist underpass at Rathcrogue

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Lennoxschips

a motorway for 9000 vehicles a day? you'll be able to stop on the verge and have a picnic

murphaph

That's 9000 through Carlow! So that includes Kilkenny traffic. Take away the Kilkenny traffic and imagine how few vehicles will be found on this road south of the city :eek:

From debating this over on SABRE it seems a town in Britain with 9000 vehicles a day would barely get a bypass, nevermind a motorway grade one. The british lads are very confused. Having recently used that N9 cart-track however I understand that something had to be done and with all the ribbon development that took place along it, the only safe and sensible option was to include a fair bit of offline new-build, so then the question is: Motorway or 2+1?

I personally think a motorway is probably overkill but I'm not militantly against it as Waterford has potential to develop significantly over the next couple of decades and at the end of the day, all the counties this road passes through are net contributors to the economy, so if the N17/18/20 is to be dualled through Galway, Clare and Limerick then the 'M9' is fair enough.

mike65

Its called future-proofing.

Mike.

murphaph

This is gonna be a toll road isn't it? Any idea of the cost of the toll(s) anyone?

Bards

This road will be toll free. There will however be a toll on the new Waterord Bridge (Part of the Waterford City Bypass).

Chris_533976

**sigh** another ring road with a toll.

Didnt work the first time, wont work now.

mike65

Nah its okay this time as its a tax on Kilkenny commuters!

Mike.

mackerski

Lennoxschips wrote:

a motorway for 9000 vehicles a day? you'll be able to stop on the verge and have a picnic

No, a non-motorway. The writer of the article just doesn't know the difference.

Dermot

murphaph

Erm, no toll at all? So Dublin-Newry=1 toll, Dublin-Kells=1 toll, Dublin-Mullingar=1 toll, Dublin-Galway=2 tolls, Dublin-Limerick=2? tolls, Dublin-Cork=2 tolls yet the two interurbans serving the southeast are to be toll free? Seems pretty odd.

mike65

No doubt its an oversight which will be corrected now its been pointed out.

Mike.

Victor

There was the option of going Waterford - Kilkenny - Johnstown (on the N/M8), but the councils got uppity, especially as Carlow would be "motorwayless", which it will be anyway, now.

The route to Dublin would have been marginally longer, but only half the road would need to be built.

Lennoxschips

A high quality lane of road can take about 1500 vehicle equivalents per hour. So the Carlow bypass is built to take 3000 vehicle equivalents per hour, in each direction, or 6000 in both directions. Again this is per hour.

There will be only 9000 vehicles using the road in both directions over the entire course of a day.

The dual carriageway is a massive overkill. A high quality single carriageway or 2+1 would have provided plenty of futureproofing. A dual carriageway is only inviting Dublin urban sprawl.

Surely a better solution would have been to build the Dublin - Cork motorway somewhere between the N8 and the N9, following a route of Naas-Athy-Kilkenny-Clonmel-Cork, rather than upgrading both routes. With the money saved, the whole route could have been finished by now, and would be used more efficiently.

road_high

Damn right it's gona be a dual carriageway- the current two lane just can't cope with the current vloumes.For too long we in the S east have taken second best with infrastructure.

Exactly, its called planning for future road needs; look what happened with M50 capacity 20 years ago- woefully inadequate for today.
This area has seen double figure population growth, which i'm sure the census will only further confirm!

They looked at bringing this road via athy/castlecomer both the 15 mile terrain between these two towns wasn't very ameniable for road building. An no of problems included altidude (thus worse weather condidtions) and poor soil structure.
Also it would have been very unpopular politically in Tipperary and Laois!The N8 has long been established as the main Cork road and it would have been v difficult to change this.
I think they should have brought the N9 up via Carlow-athy-Monasterevin and link in the new M7??

nordydan

It seems like a bit of a nonsense on this scheme that the N10 spur for kilkenny is not dual carriageway.
Considering its short length the increase to the value of the scheme would have been minimal and would have avoided the need for future disruption when the inevitable upgrade would occur.
If the boys in the Dail are serious about decentralisation, then surely they are planning for towns such as kilkenny to increase substantially in population.

spacetweek

Thought I'd resurrect this thread on the M9 since we have the Carlow Bypass apparently going to open this July 2008.

Some topics people were discussing back in 2006 included :

-The road would be HQDC not motorway (it now will be a motorway) - some people thought this was underspec and wanted the M, some thought it was way over-spec and reckoned a single carriageway would suffice.

-The N10 Kilkenny link is going to be single carriageway - I'd agree here that this should at least be 2+2. The old arrangement was that there were two parts to the N10 - the southern approach from waterford and the northern one from Dublin. Now there will only be one approach - although the old roads will remain, signage will presumably direct all traffic to use the link road.

-Routing the M8 and M9 along one big motorway via Waterford and an upgraded N25 to Cork - I think this one doesn't hold any water due to the large number of towns on the N8 that would be missed out by this.

-The road will be untolled - this is still the case and an anomoly in a national context for a major interurban. Only a few duallers/motorways will escape the toll virus - M9, N11, M18.

patrickc

spacetweek wrote: »

Thought I'd resurrect this thread on the M9 since we have the Carlow Bypass apparently going to open this July 2008.

Some topics people were discussing back in 2006 included :

-The road would be HQDC not motorway (it now will be a motorway) - some people thought this was underspec and wanted the M, some thought it was way over-spec and reckoned a single carriageway would suffice.

-The N10 Kilkenny link is going to be single carriageway - I'd agree here that this should at least be 2+2. The old arrangement was that there were two parts to the N10 - the southern approach from waterford and the northern one from Dublin. Now there will only be one approach - although the old roads will remain, signage will presumably direct all traffic to use the link road.

-Routing the M8 and M9 along one big motorway via Waterford and an upgraded N25 to Cork - I think this one doesn't hold any water due to the large number of towns on the N8 that would be missed out by this.

-The road will be untolled - this is still the case and an anomoly in a national context for a major interurban. Only a few duallers/motorways will escape the toll virus - M9, N11, M18.

have you heard an offical date for July 08, I reckon it'll open earlier by thye progress on it so far

invincibleirish

nordydan wrote: »

If the boys in the Dail are serious about decentralisation, then surely they are planning for towns such as kilkenny to increase substantially in population.

ROFLMAO!:D:D

-Routing the M8 and M9 along one big motorway via Waterford and an upgraded N25 to Cork - I think this one doesn't hold any water due to the large number of towns on the N8 that would be missed out by this.

and massively extended journey time for Dublin - Cork, which lets be fair is missing the point entirely of Motorway building. maybe a more practical option when the boyos were drawing up Motorway building plans would have been the M8 coming through central Kilkenny and then spurring off to Waterford. but no every "city" had to get a Motorway to Dublin :rolleyes:

And we wonder why Martin Cullen gets re-elected! hopeless minister but does the job for where it matters :rolleyes: x2.

corktina

Interestingly the route from Cork to Dublin used to be via Mitchelstown, Clonmel and Kilkenny in ancient times....the "N8" route was from Cork to the Midlands via Thurles and Roscrea....

Danno

N8 never went anywhere near Roscrea. The N8 avoids Thurles via Turnpike and Horse+Jockey...

road_high

corktina wrote: »

Interestingly the route from Cork to Dublin used to be via Mitchelstown, Clonmel and Kilkenny in ancient times....the "N8" route was from Cork to the Midlands via Thurles and Roscrea....

Think it was known as the "T6" or something

ardmacha

Fact is he M9 is half built and half underway at this stage so get over it basically

it is also rather inequitable that there is no toll along this route, when the likes of the M3 will have two tolls. Time to stick one in.

Zoney

invincibleirish:

Considering traffic volumes *do* dictate motorway from the M7 to the N10 (Kilkenny), it is in fact for less than half the N9, i.e. between there and Waterford, that objections could be considered valid. However, considering the distance Waterford-N10 junction it makes strategic sense to connect it with motorway.

The interurbans are all progressing to motorway end-to-end for strategic reasons rather than traffic volumes. The N8 volumes are well below 2+1 capacity near Abbeyleix. The N7 volumes are tiny between Nenagh and Roscrea. N6 is low west of Athlone. The point is that you *want* commerce (and thus traffic) between these places and Dublin to grow much more, as well as facilitating safe and fast journeys regardless of traffic volumes.

Comparisons with the UK are not entirely useful because we are concerned with what we have here - the relative size of cities here and towns there is not important. What's important is that all we can do here besides have even more than a quarter of the population in Dublin is foster growth in Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford, Sligo, etc. Of course, without the NSS and actual planning, the interurbans are not going to be put to as good use as they should be, and will end up Dublin-heavy (needing three lane motorway closer to Dublin, as the M7 already does).

Zoney

ardmacha wrote: »

it is also rather inequitable that there is no toll along this route, when the likes of the M3 will have two tolls. Time to stick one in.

The N25 bridge will have a toll, and it will have to be used rather a lot by Waterford people, even more than the Westlink is unavoidable for Dubliners. Waterford only has one other bridge. Total.

Tolls are a stupid idea anyway though. Roads, when they are necessary (and in all the toll road cases here, I think we would agree the roads are necessary), should just be paid for out of the general coffers. A large amount of toll money goes on running the tolling, it's a pathetically inefficient way to get cash, even with electronic systems (they don't come for free, work without oversight, or have no admin costs).

As regards tolling being about charging only the users... It's not like it would be good for someone in the wilds of Kerry if Dublin didn't have the Westlink. Similarly it hasn't been good for Dubliners for commerce in Waterford to be held back by having a single river crossing. Until parts of the country split off and become independent, what benefits one part benefits the whole. In fact, even then, it would be true to some extent - it's the reason the EU and giving a hoot about Northern Ireland matters. EU countries for example may have paid towards our development, but it has benefitted them in the end to have us now be a well-off neighbour.

rekrow

It is amazing the way programs are being prioritised. I didn't realise the volume of traffic to Waterford was as low as 6 to 12000. I thought one of the reasons for developing the NRA was to take the politics out of road design. There are roads that have far higher traffic volumes that aren't being looked at. Another road I can't figure out is the road from Ballinasloe to Athlone. There are no villages to bypass, and I've never heard of anyone being stuck in traffic along the road. It seems that roads to and from Dublin seem to be benefitting at the expense of regional roads. Is it absolutely necessary to build these roads first?

Chris_533976

As we know from the section of N11 DC thats missing, single carriageway sections connecting motorways are dangerous, because people dont slow down and get pissed.

Although I do agree that the roads are going through in the wrong order. For example, parts of the N8 (Fermoy - Mitchelstown) and N6 (ballinasloe to Athlone) interurbans especially could be postponed in place of other more needed projects. The N20 Mallow to Croom (abysmal condition at the moment), M17 Athenry to Tuam to bypass Claregalway, the N6 Galway Outer bypass (its chaos in Galway along the current route), N25 Dunkettle grade separation (I'm presuming this will be done/planned eventually), N25 Sarsfield and Bandon roundabouts, the N25 New Ross bypass and possibly the N22 Cork North Ring Road are all more important from a traffic standpoint.

The interurbans, although necessary purely from a safety, convenience and 'what other countrys traders think of Ireland' are being built along with the rest of the roads program in a political order. For example, the N52 Tullamore bypass being shoved through is an absolute disgrace, and is only being done because of Mr Cowens decision to do so. Although it should be done eventually, the fact that its getting priority to those I mentioned above is a disgrace.

That turned into a bit of a rant I'm afraid

rekrow

I agree totally with you Chris. The reason I cited Ballinasloe to Atlone is it is a relatively straight stretch of road with thankfully few accidents. You are spot on about the tullamore bypass. The same could be said for The N6 from Kinnegad to Athlone. I think the reason this was built is being built is political. There is a Dual carriageway as far as Mullingar already. If this was extended on to Athlone (2/3 of the distance between Kinnegad and Athlone) the whole Moate issue could be consigned to history a year ago.
Regarding the state of the existing N9 I don't have much knowledge of the route. I am sure it will be a benefit to have the new road up and running. It would be interesting to see a road map with accident and traffic volume black spots and see if the current prioritisation is addressing many of them.

Victor

The real problem isn't that the M9 goes to Waterford, rather that it goes through Carlow.

It would have made a lot of sense to re-route the M8 and M9 so that they were shared for a substantial distance. With the money saved all the small towns and villages could have been by-passed anyway.

Chris_533976

rekrow wrote: »

I am sure it will be a benefit to have the new road up and running. It would be interesting to see a road map with accident and traffic volume black spots and see if the current prioritisation is addressing many of them.

I've never travelled the N9 but I have seen photos of it, its an absolute shambles. I'm all for the M9 being built. Not from a traffic standpoint, but from purely a road quality standpoint its easily the most needed of the interurbans.

invincibleirish

I am not really about begrudging Waterford or anywhere else a Motorway, i just think the way this country approached a national Motorway building programme is that it went for the gold plated option, where, with sensible planning and whatever else, a lot of money could have been saved. Ditto for public transport programmes.

Hindsight is always a beautiful thing, but we have situations over a tiny island we have Motorways clustered together, like in Meath & Kilkenny, and Railway projects like the WRC getting priority over other more needed projects, why did it have to be like this?

Zoney

Victor wrote: »

It would have made a lot of sense to re-route the M8 and M9 so that they were shared for a substantial distance. With the money saved all the small towns and villages could have been by-passed anyway.

The problem is that the route of the current N9 would still form an important route through Carlow and would still require upgrading.

Also, the M7 would require three lanes all the way to the diverge for the combined M8/M9, and indeed the combined M8/M9 would probably require three lanes in the short term. Having three lanes is not just about larger land take - it also means a motorway with more traffic and thus requiring more management, as well as more complex/higher capacity junctions.

The motorways under construction are a useful simple routing, and they don't in fact slavishly follow the bypassed N roads - e.g. new N6 not going near Loughrea, new N8 not going near Abbeyleix, new N7 going Limerick-Nenagh direct, bypassing Birdhill etc., new N9 passing closer to Kilkenny.

As it is we already have "combined" motorways in the form of the N4 and N7 out of Dublin, and those are soon enough going to be quite problematic once traffic picks up with the onward motorway links.

The idea of having more rationalised interurbans is I suspect only a nice idea on a map with crayons, where it looks simply like less blue lines hence cheaper. The reality is rather different; even if there were some saving, it's probably not worth doing.

EurasiaEndtoEnd

Given that vehicle ownership rates in the South-East in general and Carlow in particular are high ( even by international standards ) would seem to justify the building of the M9. Ireland has done so little future-proofing in the past that getting these roads built now ( while the economy can pay for them ) is going to be a benefit that will pay off in the long run.
I have calculated the number of vehicles per 1,000 people in each county and as one can see Carlow is No. 1 with a level of ownership that is high even by international levels. Compare with the Wikipedia link below.

per/1,000County Population Vehicles

660 Carlow 50,000 33,000
636 Tipperary NR 66,000 42,000
614 Wexford 132,000 81,000
602 Tipperary SR 83,000 50,000
595 Clare 111,000 65,000
593 Roscommon 59,000 35,000
586 Kerry 140,000 82,000
586 Leitrim 29,000 17,000
582 Cork 481,000 280,000
580 Kilkenny 88,000 51,000
574 Waterford 108,000 62,000
574 Sligo 61,000 35,000
565 Meath 163,000 92,000
563 Wicklow 126,000 71,000
563 Cavan 64,000 36,000
560 Longford 34,000 19,000
557 Westmeath 79,000 44,000
556 Mayo 124,000 69,000
553 Laois 67,000 37,000
549 Limerick 184,000 101,000
549 Offaly 71,000 39,000
543 Kildare 186,000 101,000
536 Monaghan 56,000 30,000
534 Galway 232,000 124,000
517 Donegal 147,000 76,000
483 DUBLIN 1,187,000 573,000
468 Louth 111,000 52,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita

invincibleirish

mfitzy wrote: »

Ditto for the N/M8..however doubt you think that it's planning and building was parochial somehow

oh for goodness sake, yes i know! this is my point, look at my original posts, one motorway for the south with spurs would have been more appropriate, does it not strike you as odd in the kilkenny/tipperary/wexford corridor,there is the M7/8/9/11, do you not think this could have been better planned out?

but no. and rather then consider the M9 might be actually unnecassary, if Cork/limerick/Galway get a Motorway then goodness knows Waterford must have one too. do you see where i come from when i ascribe this "me too" attitude when it comes to things like the M9 and the WRC?

look here:

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N20-15.htm
traffic at Croom is 14000 a day, yet the Mallow Croom upgrade is postponed until the interurbans are done, does it strike you as fair that Mullinavat, with 6000 vehicles a day will get priority, over the N20, a road which carries more traffic between bigger places?

fricatus

invincibleirish wrote: »

oh for goodness sake, yes i know! this is my point, look at my original posts, one motorway for the south with spurs would have been more appropriate, does it not strike you as odd in the kilkenny/tipperary/wexford corridor,there is the M7/8/9/11, do you not think this could have been better planned out?

but no. and rather then consider the M9 might be actually unnecassary, if Cork/limerick/Galway get a Motorway then goodness knows Waterford must have one too. do you see where i come from when i ascribe this "me too" attitude when it comes to things like the M9 and the WRC?

look here:

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N20-15.htm
traffic at Croom is 14000 a day, yet the Mallow Croom upgrade is postponed until the interurbans are done, does it strike you as fair that Mullinavat, with 6000 vehicles a day will get priority, over the N20, a road which carries more traffic between bigger places?

Once you single out the M9 as somehow a victory for parochial politics! Why?

I agree with you that it could have been better planned - just take a look back through the thread at my previous posts - but if granting a motorway link from Dublin to Waterford is "parochial", then would you not say the same about Galway? Or Limerick? The government had to draw the line somewhere on which interurbans to build. They decided to build motorways to all the cities outside Dublin that were big enough to have their own city council, and that includes Waterford, much as you seem to dislike this fact.

The fact is that Waterford and the south-east generally have suffered in the past 30-40 years. This area has not lived up to its potential (closest to Europe, proximity to both Cork and Dublin), when you consider that Galway for example has boomed beyond recognition, despite its (justified) claims of geographical disadvantage.

My belief is that there is massive untapped potential in the south-east, and the decision to connect the three main centres of population (Waterford/Tramore, Kilkenny and Carlow) along one axis was a good one, the same way the decision to create a high-quality Limerick-Shannon-Ennis corridor was a good one.

Just as an aside to that, we constantly hear about the necessity to relieve pressure on Dublin port. Waterford port is one example of this untapped potential, and is probably in a prime position to do this, although I don't claim to know anything about port activities. Wait and see though. I believe it will boom once access to Dublin and the midlands is improved, not to mention the access that the new N25 bridge will provide to the south coast.

A final word about traffic figures. I have no intention of disputing them. What I do know though is that the poor quality of the current N9 heavily discourages its use, and I believe this skews the figures. I have friends in Dublin who never use it. They always take the N11-N30-N25 because the drive is so much easier. I do this too on a regular basis.

Similarly, many people in Kilkenny don't take the N9 to Dublin at all. They take the N78 via Castlecomer instead, as do people in the Clonmel area. There are signs at both N9/N10 junctions telling HGVs to use the N10 via Kilkenny! Why? because the road at Thomastown can't handle them! The fact is, the whole N9 is so bad that the marginal cost of building a motorway is probably quite small when compared with all the little upgrades that would be necessary to bring it up to the standard of, say, the current N6 or N7. I'd be interested to hear if there are any facts to back up my theory...

invincibleirish

fricatus wrote: »

Just as an aside to that, we constantly hear about the necessity to relieve pressure on Dublin port. Waterford port is one example of this untapped potential, and is probably in a prime position to do this, although I don't claim to know anything about port activities. Wait and see though. I believe it will boom once access to Dublin and the midlands is improved, not to mention the access that the new N25 bridge will provide to the south coast.

speaking of Waterford port, care to explain its latest activities?

http://www.corkindependent.com/local-news/local-news/port-of-cork/

"He also dismissed the objection by the Port of Waterford, citing their opposition as being "riddled with obvious error", "blatantly anti-competitive" and in breach of "clearly articulated government policy that ports compete with each other". "

I dont mean to pin this on you, but this small minded attitude is thr attitude i am trying to draw attention to.

invincibleirish

fricatus wrote: »

Once you single out the M9 as somehow a victory for parochial politics! Why?

I agree with you that it could have been better planned - just take a look back through the thread at my previous posts - but if granting a motorway link from Dublin to Waterford is "parochial", then would you not say the same about Galway? Or Limerick? The government had to draw the line somewhere on which interurbans to build. They decided to build motorways to all the cities outside Dublin that were big enough to have their own city council, and that includes Waterford, much as you seem to dislike this fact.

The fact is that Waterford and the south-east generally have suffered in the past 30-40 years. This area has not lived up to its potential (closest to Europe, proximity to both Cork and Dublin), when you consider that Galway for example has boomed beyond recognition, despite its (justified) claims of geographical disadvantage.

My belief is that there is massive untapped potential in the south-east, and the decision to connect the three main centres of population (Waterford/Tramore, Kilkenny and Carlow) along one axis was a good one, the same way the decision to create a high-quality Limerick-Shannon-Ennis corridor was a good one.

Just as an aside to that, we constantly hear about the necessity to relieve pressure on Dublin port. Waterford port is one example of this untapped potential, and is probably in a prime position to do this, although I don't claim to know anything about port activities. Wait and see though. I believe it will boom once access to Dublin and the midlands is improved, not to mention the access that the new N25 bridge will provide to the south coast.

A final word about traffic figures. I have no intention of disputing them. What I do know though is that the poor quality of the current N9 heavily discourages its use, and I believe this skews the figures. I have friends in Dublin who never use it. They always take the N11-N30-N25 because the drive is so much easier. I do this too on a regular basis.

Similarly, many people in Kilkenny don't take the N9 to Dublin at all. They take the N78 via Castlecomer instead, as do people in the Clonmel area. There are signs at both N9/N10 junctions telling HGVs to use the N10 via Kilkenny! Why? because the road at Thomastown can't handle them! The fact is, the whole N9 is so bad that the marginal cost of building a motorway is probably quite small when compared with all the little upgrades that would be necessary to bring it up to the standard of, say, the current N6 or N7. I'd be interested to hear if there are any facts to back up my theory...

1. you site shannon as an example of good planning? is it? i think not.

2. you site that the existing road network can handle dublin based traffic via
the N11-N30-N25, then why cant this route be focusedd on instead of a new Motorway?

3. you talk about realising Waterfords and the southeast potential, this has to be balanced out with the nation as a whole, as you can see here

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/economy/current/regincome.pdf

Waterford receives more in social transfers then it pays out in taxes, why should the state increase this percentage on vanity projects like a new university?

ive brought this ridiculously off topic BTW, my apoligies.