Carlow Bypass (Part of M9)

patrickc · 07-04-2008 1:06am

spacetweek wrote: »

Thought I'd resurrect this thread on the M9 since we have the Carlow Bypass apparently going to open this July 2008.

Some topics people were discussing back in 2006 included :

-The road would be HQDC not motorway (it now will be a motorway) - some people thought this was underspec and wanted the M, some thought it was way over-spec and reckoned a single carriageway would suffice.

-The N10 Kilkenny link is going to be single carriageway - I'd agree here that this should at least be 2+2. The old arrangement was that there were two parts to the N10 - the southern approach from waterford and the northern one from Dublin. Now there will only be one approach - although the old roads will remain, signage will presumably direct all traffic to use the link road.

-Routing the M8 and M9 along one big motorway via Waterford and an upgraded N25 to Cork - I think this one doesn't hold any water due to the large number of towns on the N8 that would be missed out by this.

-The road will be untolled - this is still the case and an anomoly in a national context for a major interurban. Only a few duallers/motorways will escape the toll virus - M9, N11, M18.

have you heard an offical date for July 08, I reckon it'll open earlier by thye progress on it so far

invincibleirish · 07-04-2008 1:49am

nordydan wrote: »

If the boys in the Dail are serious about decentralisation, then surely they are planning for towns such as kilkenny to increase substantially in population.

ROFLMAO!:D:D

-Routing the M8 and M9 along one big motorway via Waterford and an upgraded N25 to Cork - I think this one doesn't hold any water due to the large number of towns on the N8 that would be missed out by this.

and massively extended journey time for Dublin - Cork, which lets be fair is missing the point entirely of Motorway building. maybe a more practical option when the boyos were drawing up Motorway building plans would have been the M8 coming through central Kilkenny and then spurring off to Waterford. but no every "city" had to get a Motorway to Dublin :rolleyes:

And we wonder why Martin Cullen gets re-elected! hopeless minister but does the job for where it matters :rolleyes: x2.

corktina · 07-04-2008 7:35am

Interestingly the route from Cork to Dublin used to be via Mitchelstown, Clonmel and Kilkenny in ancient times....the "N8" route was from Cork to the Midlands via Thurles and Roscrea....

Danno · 07-04-2008 9:57am

N8 never went anywhere near Roscrea. The N8 avoids Thurles via Turnpike and Horse+Jockey...

road_high · 07-04-2008 3:18pm

corktina wrote: »

Interestingly the route from Cork to Dublin used to be via Mitchelstown, Clonmel and Kilkenny in ancient times....the "N8" route was from Cork to the Midlands via Thurles and Roscrea....

Think it was known as the "T6" or something

ardmacha · 07-04-2008 6:51pm

Fact is he M9 is half built and half underway at this stage so get over it basically

it is also rather inequitable that there is no toll along this route, when the likes of the M3 will have two tolls. Time to stick one in.

Zoney · 07-04-2008 6:55pm

invincibleirish:

Considering traffic volumes *do* dictate motorway from the M7 to the N10 (Kilkenny), it is in fact for less than half the N9, i.e. between there and Waterford, that objections could be considered valid. However, considering the distance Waterford-N10 junction it makes strategic sense to connect it with motorway.

The interurbans are all progressing to motorway end-to-end for strategic reasons rather than traffic volumes. The N8 volumes are well below 2+1 capacity near Abbeyleix. The N7 volumes are tiny between Nenagh and Roscrea. N6 is low west of Athlone. The point is that you *want* commerce (and thus traffic) between these places and Dublin to grow much more, as well as facilitating safe and fast journeys regardless of traffic volumes.

Comparisons with the UK are not entirely useful because we are concerned with what we have here - the relative size of cities here and towns there is not important. What's important is that all we can do here besides have even more than a quarter of the population in Dublin is foster growth in Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford, Sligo, etc. Of course, without the NSS and actual planning, the interurbans are not going to be put to as good use as they should be, and will end up Dublin-heavy (needing three lane motorway closer to Dublin, as the M7 already does).

Zoney · 07-04-2008 7:04pm

ardmacha wrote: »

it is also rather inequitable that there is no toll along this route, when the likes of the M3 will have two tolls. Time to stick one in.

The N25 bridge will have a toll, and it will have to be used rather a lot by Waterford people, even more than the Westlink is unavoidable for Dubliners. Waterford only has one other bridge. Total.

Tolls are a stupid idea anyway though. Roads, when they are necessary (and in all the toll road cases here, I think we would agree the roads are necessary), should just be paid for out of the general coffers. A large amount of toll money goes on running the tolling, it's a pathetically inefficient way to get cash, even with electronic systems (they don't come for free, work without oversight, or have no admin costs).

As regards tolling being about charging only the users... It's not like it would be good for someone in the wilds of Kerry if Dublin didn't have the Westlink. Similarly it hasn't been good for Dubliners for commerce in Waterford to be held back by having a single river crossing. Until parts of the country split off and become independent, what benefits one part benefits the whole. In fact, even then, it would be true to some extent - it's the reason the EU and giving a hoot about Northern Ireland matters. EU countries for example may have paid towards our development, but it has benefitted them in the end to have us now be a well-off neighbour.

rekrow · 07-04-2008 7:46pm

It is amazing the way programs are being prioritised. I didn't realise the volume of traffic to Waterford was as low as 6 to 12000. I thought one of the reasons for developing the NRA was to take the politics out of road design. There are roads that have far higher traffic volumes that aren't being looked at. Another road I can't figure out is the road from Ballinasloe to Athlone. There are no villages to bypass, and I've never heard of anyone being stuck in traffic along the road. It seems that roads to and from Dublin seem to be benefitting at the expense of regional roads. Is it absolutely necessary to build these roads first?

Chris_533976 · 07-04-2008 8:04pm

As we know from the section of N11 DC thats missing, single carriageway sections connecting motorways are dangerous, because people dont slow down and get pissed.

Although I do agree that the roads are going through in the wrong order. For example, parts of the N8 (Fermoy - Mitchelstown) and N6 (ballinasloe to Athlone) interurbans especially could be postponed in place of other more needed projects. The N20 Mallow to Croom (abysmal condition at the moment), M17 Athenry to Tuam to bypass Claregalway, the N6 Galway Outer bypass (its chaos in Galway along the current route), N25 Dunkettle grade separation (I'm presuming this will be done/planned eventually), N25 Sarsfield and Bandon roundabouts, the N25 New Ross bypass and possibly the N22 Cork North Ring Road are all more important from a traffic standpoint.

The interurbans, although necessary purely from a safety, convenience and 'what other countrys traders think of Ireland' are being built along with the rest of the roads program in a political order. For example, the N52 Tullamore bypass being shoved through is an absolute disgrace, and is only being done because of Mr Cowens decision to do so. Although it should be done eventually, the fact that its getting priority to those I mentioned above is a disgrace.

That turned into a bit of a rant I'm afraid

rekrow · 07-04-2008 9:06pm

I agree totally with you Chris. The reason I cited Ballinasloe to Atlone is it is a relatively straight stretch of road with thankfully few accidents. You are spot on about the tullamore bypass. The same could be said for The N6 from Kinnegad to Athlone. I think the reason this was built is being built is political. There is a Dual carriageway as far as Mullingar already. If this was extended on to Athlone (2/3 of the distance between Kinnegad and Athlone) the whole Moate issue could be consigned to history a year ago.
Regarding the state of the existing N9 I don't have much knowledge of the route. I am sure it will be a benefit to have the new road up and running. It would be interesting to see a road map with accident and traffic volume black spots and see if the current prioritisation is addressing many of them.

Victor · 07-04-2008 9:57pm

The real problem isn't that the M9 goes to Waterford, rather that it goes through Carlow.

It would have made a lot of sense to re-route the M8 and M9 so that they were shared for a substantial distance. With the money saved all the small towns and villages could have been by-passed anyway.

Chris_533976 · 07-04-2008 10:10pm

rekrow wrote: »

I am sure it will be a benefit to have the new road up and running. It would be interesting to see a road map with accident and traffic volume black spots and see if the current prioritisation is addressing many of them.

I've never travelled the N9 but I have seen photos of it, its an absolute shambles. I'm all for the M9 being built. Not from a traffic standpoint, but from purely a road quality standpoint its easily the most needed of the interurbans.

invincibleirish · 07-04-2008 11:42pm

I am not really about begrudging Waterford or anywhere else a Motorway, i just think the way this country approached a national Motorway building programme is that it went for the gold plated option, where, with sensible planning and whatever else, a lot of money could have been saved. Ditto for public transport programmes.

Hindsight is always a beautiful thing, but we have situations over a tiny island we have Motorways clustered together, like in Meath & Kilkenny, and Railway projects like the WRC getting priority over other more needed projects, why did it have to be like this?

Zoney · 07-04-2008 11:44pm

Victor wrote: »

It would have made a lot of sense to re-route the M8 and M9 so that they were shared for a substantial distance. With the money saved all the small towns and villages could have been by-passed anyway.

The problem is that the route of the current N9 would still form an important route through Carlow and would still require upgrading.

Also, the M7 would require three lanes all the way to the diverge for the combined M8/M9, and indeed the combined M8/M9 would probably require three lanes in the short term. Having three lanes is not just about larger land take - it also means a motorway with more traffic and thus requiring more management, as well as more complex/higher capacity junctions.

The motorways under construction are a useful simple routing, and they don't in fact slavishly follow the bypassed N roads - e.g. new N6 not going near Loughrea, new N8 not going near Abbeyleix, new N7 going Limerick-Nenagh direct, bypassing Birdhill etc., new N9 passing closer to Kilkenny.

As it is we already have "combined" motorways in the form of the N4 and N7 out of Dublin, and those are soon enough going to be quite problematic once traffic picks up with the onward motorway links.

The idea of having more rationalised interurbans is I suspect only a nice idea on a map with crayons, where it looks simply like less blue lines hence cheaper. The reality is rather different; even if there were some saving, it's probably not worth doing.

EurasiaEndtoEnd · 08-04-2008 3:54am

Given that vehicle ownership rates in the South-East in general and Carlow in particular are high ( even by international standards ) would seem to justify the building of the M9. Ireland has done so little future-proofing in the past that getting these roads built now ( while the economy can pay for them ) is going to be a benefit that will pay off in the long run.
I have calculated the number of vehicles per 1,000 people in each county and as one can see Carlow is No. 1 with a level of ownership that is high even by international levels. Compare with the Wikipedia link below.

per/1,000County Population Vehicles

660 Carlow 50,000 33,000
636 Tipperary NR 66,000 42,000
614 Wexford 132,000 81,000
602 Tipperary SR 83,000 50,000
595 Clare 111,000 65,000
593 Roscommon 59,000 35,000
586 Kerry 140,000 82,000
586 Leitrim 29,000 17,000
582 Cork 481,000 280,000
580 Kilkenny 88,000 51,000
574 Waterford 108,000 62,000
574 Sligo 61,000 35,000
565 Meath 163,000 92,000
563 Wicklow 126,000 71,000
563 Cavan 64,000 36,000
560 Longford 34,000 19,000
557 Westmeath 79,000 44,000
556 Mayo 124,000 69,000
553 Laois 67,000 37,000
549 Limerick 184,000 101,000
549 Offaly 71,000 39,000
543 Kildare 186,000 101,000
536 Monaghan 56,000 30,000
534 Galway 232,000 124,000
517 Donegal 147,000 76,000
483 DUBLIN 1,187,000 573,000
468 Louth 111,000 52,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita

invincibleirish · 08-04-2008 10:05pm

mfitzy wrote: »

Ditto for the N/M8..however doubt you think that it's planning and building was parochial somehow

oh for goodness sake, yes i know! this is my point, look at my original posts, one motorway for the south with spurs would have been more appropriate, does it not strike you as odd in the kilkenny/tipperary/wexford corridor,there is the M7/8/9/11, do you not think this could have been better planned out?

but no. and rather then consider the M9 might be actually unnecassary, if Cork/limerick/Galway get a Motorway then goodness knows Waterford must have one too. do you see where i come from when i ascribe this "me too" attitude when it comes to things like the M9 and the WRC?

look here:

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N20-15.htm
traffic at Croom is 14000 a day, yet the Mallow Croom upgrade is postponed until the interurbans are done, does it strike you as fair that Mullinavat, with 6000 vehicles a day will get priority, over the N20, a road which carries more traffic between bigger places?

fricatus · 08-04-2008 10:52pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

oh for goodness sake, yes i know! this is my point, look at my original posts, one motorway for the south with spurs would have been more appropriate, does it not strike you as odd in the kilkenny/tipperary/wexford corridor,there is the M7/8/9/11, do you not think this could have been better planned out?

but no. and rather then consider the M9 might be actually unnecassary, if Cork/limerick/Galway get a Motorway then goodness knows Waterford must have one too. do you see where i come from when i ascribe this "me too" attitude when it comes to things like the M9 and the WRC?

look here:

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N20-15.htm
traffic at Croom is 14000 a day, yet the Mallow Croom upgrade is postponed until the interurbans are done, does it strike you as fair that Mullinavat, with 6000 vehicles a day will get priority, over the N20, a road which carries more traffic between bigger places?

Once you single out the M9 as somehow a victory for parochial politics! Why?

I agree with you that it could have been better planned - just take a look back through the thread at my previous posts - but if granting a motorway link from Dublin to Waterford is "parochial", then would you not say the same about Galway? Or Limerick? The government had to draw the line somewhere on which interurbans to build. They decided to build motorways to all the cities outside Dublin that were big enough to have their own city council, and that includes Waterford, much as you seem to dislike this fact.

The fact is that Waterford and the south-east generally have suffered in the past 30-40 years. This area has not lived up to its potential (closest to Europe, proximity to both Cork and Dublin), when you consider that Galway for example has boomed beyond recognition, despite its (justified) claims of geographical disadvantage.

My belief is that there is massive untapped potential in the south-east, and the decision to connect the three main centres of population (Waterford/Tramore, Kilkenny and Carlow) along one axis was a good one, the same way the decision to create a high-quality Limerick-Shannon-Ennis corridor was a good one.

Just as an aside to that, we constantly hear about the necessity to relieve pressure on Dublin port. Waterford port is one example of this untapped potential, and is probably in a prime position to do this, although I don't claim to know anything about port activities. Wait and see though. I believe it will boom once access to Dublin and the midlands is improved, not to mention the access that the new N25 bridge will provide to the south coast.

A final word about traffic figures. I have no intention of disputing them. What I do know though is that the poor quality of the current N9 heavily discourages its use, and I believe this skews the figures. I have friends in Dublin who never use it. They always take the N11-N30-N25 because the drive is so much easier. I do this too on a regular basis.

Similarly, many people in Kilkenny don't take the N9 to Dublin at all. They take the N78 via Castlecomer instead, as do people in the Clonmel area. There are signs at both N9/N10 junctions telling HGVs to use the N10 via Kilkenny! Why? because the road at Thomastown can't handle them! The fact is, the whole N9 is so bad that the marginal cost of building a motorway is probably quite small when compared with all the little upgrades that would be necessary to bring it up to the standard of, say, the current N6 or N7. I'd be interested to hear if there are any facts to back up my theory...

invincibleirish · 08-04-2008 11:28pm

fricatus wrote: »

Just as an aside to that, we constantly hear about the necessity to relieve pressure on Dublin port. Waterford port is one example of this untapped potential, and is probably in a prime position to do this, although I don't claim to know anything about port activities. Wait and see though. I believe it will boom once access to Dublin and the midlands is improved, not to mention the access that the new N25 bridge will provide to the south coast.

speaking of Waterford port, care to explain its latest activities?

http://www.corkindependent.com/local-news/local-news/port-of-cork/

"He also dismissed the objection by the Port of Waterford, citing their opposition as being "riddled with obvious error", "blatantly anti-competitive" and in breach of "clearly articulated government policy that ports compete with each other". "

I dont mean to pin this on you, but this small minded attitude is thr attitude i am trying to draw attention to.

invincibleirish · 08-04-2008 11:38pm

fricatus wrote: »

Once you single out the M9 as somehow a victory for parochial politics! Why?

I agree with you that it could have been better planned - just take a look back through the thread at my previous posts - but if granting a motorway link from Dublin to Waterford is "parochial", then would you not say the same about Galway? Or Limerick? The government had to draw the line somewhere on which interurbans to build. They decided to build motorways to all the cities outside Dublin that were big enough to have their own city council, and that includes Waterford, much as you seem to dislike this fact.

The fact is that Waterford and the south-east generally have suffered in the past 30-40 years. This area has not lived up to its potential (closest to Europe, proximity to both Cork and Dublin), when you consider that Galway for example has boomed beyond recognition, despite its (justified) claims of geographical disadvantage.

My belief is that there is massive untapped potential in the south-east, and the decision to connect the three main centres of population (Waterford/Tramore, Kilkenny and Carlow) along one axis was a good one, the same way the decision to create a high-quality Limerick-Shannon-Ennis corridor was a good one.

Just as an aside to that, we constantly hear about the necessity to relieve pressure on Dublin port. Waterford port is one example of this untapped potential, and is probably in a prime position to do this, although I don't claim to know anything about port activities. Wait and see though. I believe it will boom once access to Dublin and the midlands is improved, not to mention the access that the new N25 bridge will provide to the south coast.

A final word about traffic figures. I have no intention of disputing them. What I do know though is that the poor quality of the current N9 heavily discourages its use, and I believe this skews the figures. I have friends in Dublin who never use it. They always take the N11-N30-N25 because the drive is so much easier. I do this too on a regular basis.

Similarly, many people in Kilkenny don't take the N9 to Dublin at all. They take the N78 via Castlecomer instead, as do people in the Clonmel area. There are signs at both N9/N10 junctions telling HGVs to use the N10 via Kilkenny! Why? because the road at Thomastown can't handle them! The fact is, the whole N9 is so bad that the marginal cost of building a motorway is probably quite small when compared with all the little upgrades that would be necessary to bring it up to the standard of, say, the current N6 or N7. I'd be interested to hear if there are any facts to back up my theory...

1. you site shannon as an example of good planning? is it? i think not.

2. you site that the existing road network can handle dublin based traffic via
the N11-N30-N25, then why cant this route be focusedd on instead of a new Motorway?

3. you talk about realising Waterfords and the southeast potential, this has to be balanced out with the nation as a whole, as you can see here

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/economy/current/regincome.pdf

Waterford receives more in social transfers then it pays out in taxes, why should the state increase this percentage on vanity projects like a new university?

ive brought this ridiculously off topic BTW, my apoligies.

Zoney · 08-04-2008 11:56pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

Waterford receives more in social transfers then it pays out in taxes, why should the state increase this percentage on vanity projects like a new university?

How do you suggest changing that situation other than paying for facilities that will bring the region forward? As long as Waterford (or whatever other "poorer" area you choose) is part of the state, it makes sense not just to subsidise the area (pay more for services/infrastructure than is taken in tax from the area) but to invest in it to bring it up to scratch.

The M9 will benefit the Southeast immensely. How is that not good for Dublin too despite the initial cost? More commerce facilitated by infrastructure such as the M9 will help the southeast bring in more revenues. A more prosperous southeast is beneficial for the entire State.

One can certainly make arguments against a Uni in Waterford, although I do not think they are good arguments. However, deriding the notion as a vanity project is a cop-out. People in the southeast are looking for a University as a University, not some kind of trophy. At worst you could suggest that WIT folk are looking out for themselves, although I would say that's not being fair to most of them.

fricatus · 09-04-2008 8:33am

invincibleirish wrote: »

speaking of Waterford port, care to explain its latest activities?

http://www.corkindependent.com/local-news/local-news/port-of-cork/

Does CIÉ own the Port of Cork or have a large interest in it? If so, I have an idea why - otherwise, no clue. Maybe open a new thread in the Infrastructure forum? I'm no expert (even in an amateur sense) on ports, so you might be better off getting more informed opinion there.

invincibleirish wrote: »

1. you site shannon as an example of good planning? is it? i think not.

I never mentioned good planning. My words were "high quality", which I suppose is vague... what I meant is in terms of economic activity. The area has an international airport and a high concentration of well known quality employers.

invincibleirish wrote: »

2. you site that the existing road network can handle dublin based traffic via
the N11-N30-N25, then why cant this route be focusedd on instead of a new Motorway?

I never said it couldn't. All we ever wanted in Waterford was a motorway or dual carriageway link to Dublin. The N11 would have fit the bill perfectly from our point of view, as would an M8 shoved southwards towards Kilkenny, with a spur off towards Waterford. IIRC, it was objections from Carlow and Kilkenny that led to the present M9 route being chosen.

invincibleirish wrote: »

3. you talk about realising Waterfords and the southeast potential, this has to be balanced out with the nation as a whole, as you can see here

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/economy/current/regincome.pdf

Waterford receives more in social transfers then it pays out in taxes, why should the state increase this percentage on vanity projects like a new university?

We don't want social transfers! We don't want to be living on bloody welfare. We want infrastructural investment, on a par with what goes into the likes of Limerick and Galway, so that we too can compete at that level.

All we need in the south-east is improved access (which at long last is coming), a properly funded university, and a little more help from the IDA (facilitated greatly by the first two items). So many talented people leave this area to go to university elsewhere, and even those who would wish to come home find a lack of opportunities in their way. I don't expect us ever to have the same employment opportunities as Dublin, but we should be about the level of Galway, and we're not! That has to be addressed.

invincibleirish wrote: »

ive brought this ridiculously off topic BTW, my apoligies.

Oh look, it livens up the forum... I'm sure people will get over it

Bards · 10-04-2008 9:05am

.....Meanwhile, back on topic

According to the Carlow Nationalist it will open in the 1st or 2nd week in May
=========================================================

http://www.carlow-nationalist.ie/new...ncwcw&cat=news

Bypass scheduled to open in May but will Dempsey do the honours?
By: Suzanne Pender

TRAFFIC gridlock into Carlow town should soon become a dim and distant memory with the opening of the Carlow Bypass now just weeks away.

Carlow County Council confirmed this week that the bypass will open “on the first or second week in May”, well ahead of schedule.

“It’s almost ready to open and we would expect it to be the first or second week in May,” said Director of Services John Carley.

However just who will perform that official opening remains a mystery, councillors joked at Monday’s meeting of the local authority.

With the prospect of a cabinet reshuffle looming large, current Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey’s diary is anything but certain with Brian Cowen poised to become Taoiseach.

However the smart money would still have Minister Dempsey taking a trip to Carlow as Transport Minister in May to finally ease the frustrations of Dublin to Waterford travellers.

The 19km of high-quality dual carriage-way will bypass the town of Carlow with three grade-separated junctions at Powerstown (N9), Rathcrogue (N80) and Prumplestown (N9).

The bypass consists of 11 road bridges, one river crossing, one rail crossing as well as a pedestrian cyclist underpass at Rathcrogue, thus allowing access to Tinryland GAA Club.

Chris_533976 · 10-04-2008 4:30pm

Bards wrote: »

.....Meanwhile, back on topic

The 19km of high-quality dual carriage-way will bypass the town of Carlow with three grade-separated junctions at Powerstown (N9), Rathcrogue (N80) and Prumplestown (N9).

aarrgg get the facts rights its opening as M. Stupid newspaper.

road_high · 11-04-2008 7:28pm

The final section kicks off;

http://www.kilkennycoco.ie/eng/Services/Roads/N9-N10_Kilcullen_to_Waterford_Road_Scheme_-_Phase_4_Knocktopher_to_Powerstown_-_Main_Works_-_Design_Build_-_Contract.html

County Kilkenny goes from having the worst National road network in the country to having one of the best..

Also more info here; http://n9-n10kilcullen-waterford.ie/

cargo · 13-04-2008 1:04pm

has anybody got anything to say about the Carlow Bypass itself or the opening date possibly? Think some people on here need to open a new thread and take their debate on the critical traffic volumes for a motorway justification to a SEPARATE thread as it does not belong here.

JupiterKid · 13-04-2008 9:59pm

Apparently the Carlow Bypass is due to be opened during the first half of May. So relief for Carlow town is now in sight.:)

dymonaz · 15-04-2008 1:19am

So, I managed to read all the discussion (instead of going to sleep) and I'm amazed by one single fact - nobody has mentioned HOW MUCH exactly does it cost to build a motorway and how much a HQDC.

And the question is not only the money - for a road to be a motorway it not only has to be "high volume" and "propper standards" - the other major factor is how many people live around it. And by this I mean that high volume roads should not be built next to villages for safety reasons. Motorways are there to allow for quick access between distant locations. Now, I'm not sure about the N20, I have only taken it once and I don't remember it too well, but if most of the 14k traffic is local - than what's the point of the motorway there? And if 6k of the Mulinavat of traffic is only "passing by" than there IS a need for a motorway. Simple as this. And since it is able to bypass all the smaller towns (less population) and is HQDC - why not at a substantially minimal cost build it to the propper standard?

I go Dublin to Dungarvan, Co. Waterford once/twice a month. Lately I started taking N11-N30-N25, cause I don't need the extra adrenaline. And the opposite - if I'm taking someone with me, especially for the first time, I sometimes give them the "joy ride" of the N9. Just to scare them a little. N9 is BY FAR THE WORST road I've driven in my life. I mean out of the "primary" routes. It's supposed to be one of the most important routes and it is complete crap. And in Ireland I haven't taken only the routes which lead up to Sligo - Limerick, Galway, Cork I've visited from Dublin and from other places while simply travelling, by taking N18 and other more local "primary" routes. Nothing is as bad as N9. And it's the last of inter-urbans - so why not do it properly? By the time they finish it - other inter-urbans will already have a need for an upgrade and become motorways. By the time these are finished - the M9 will have a need to become a 3-lane motorway. Take a look at German road network and learn.

Getting back to the topic of local vs passing traffic. As I said - I'm taking the N9 quite often and it happened to me a gazillion times, that I get stuck between one and the same car between Paulstown and Waterford, travelling at 60kph (80 is safe on most of it). And if by luck I do manage to overtake it (there are 2-3 streches where you can do it safely. Withing the distance of almost 60km), in 5kms I get stuck behind another car. Traveling to Waterford. Or back. And the car I overtook catches up. Repeat till you get bored.

I once took regional roads from Dungarvan to Clonmel to Cashel to Dublin via N8. It took me some 10 mins longer than taking the shortest route (N9). And the delay is mostly because of the traffic.

I suppose the main discussion was wether it needs to be a motorway - but this can only be answered if you show the difference in money spent/needed, not only the traffic volumes. Some EU money could be squeezed out for that too, as it could be designated as a secondary European route (connecting E01/E201/E30/E20), though I'm not sure about the procedures there.

Anyways, happy days about the Carlow bypass part getting opened! I thought it's going to open in Q3, as I read that on the NRA site, but last time driving past all the works it really looked like it's pretty much done - good job! I'll miss the offlicense in Carlow on the main road (at the opposite side of the road of Abrakebabra - not sure about the street names there) - it's been my friend for a long time

fricatus · 15-04-2008 1:41pm

dymonaz wrote: »

As I said - I'm taking the N9 quite often and it happened to me a gazillion times, that I get stuck between one and the same car between Paulstown and Waterford, travelling at 60kph (80 is safe on most of it). And if by luck I do manage to overtake it (there are 2-3 streches where you can do it safely. Withing the distance of almost 60km), in 5kms I get stuck behind another car. Traveling to Waterford. Or back. And the car I overtook catches up. Repeat till you get bored.

Point well made. Other roads have the odd bad stretch, but the N9 from the Paulstown N10 junction all the way to Waterford is uniformly bad, and like dymonaz said, there are only two or three overtaking opportunities along the entire 60 km. If there's anything coming the other way, you are stuck.

That section of road needs a wholesale realignment anyway, and the marginal cost of making it a motorway the whole way is probably not all that high. That's just my guess, but I asked before if someone could produce figures to prove me right or wrong, but nobody did.

Mods: why not split this thread into a Carlow Bypass one and a "Do we need the M9?" one at this stage?

Victor · 15-04-2008 6:49pm

Lets keep things relevant to the topic please.

Carlow Bypass (Part of M9)

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