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Over 1/3 of people say a victim of rape is partly responsible if....

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Fremen


    Almost 33% of those surveyed thought a victim was in some way responsible for being raped if she flirted with a man or failed to say 'no' clearly.

    10% of people felt the victim was entirely at fault if she had a number of sexual partners.

    One in three believed a woman was either partly or fully to blame if she wore revealing clothes.

    Nearly one in four people felt that a woman must share some of the blame if she walked through a deserted area.

    25% believed a woman who was drunk and took illegal drugs was either partly or fully to blame.

    Ok, that's a bit disturbing. I think "blame" is completely the wrong choice of word. A woman walking alone through a deserted area late at night is a fool, but I hardly think a rape is her fault.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    overheal wrote:
    and yet every smart girl I ever served working in a nightclub knew to keep her thumb on her bottle-mouth.

    I've never seen anyone do that. The pill could still get through depending on how small it is. How does that stop people with pints getting spiked?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭Todoquetengo


    darkman2 wrote: »
    Able to make your own decisions? Able to take the consequences of being foolish?

    So if you went for a few drinks some night, got jumped on when walking home and raped by a guy or guys would you accept the consequences of your foolishness, i.e. drinking alcohol, walking around after dark?

    It's too easy to make generalisations


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭kittensoft1984


    "if she flirted with a man"

    how absurd is that! women and men for that matter flirt all the time!!!

    its human nature. it doesnt mean that they want to be raped or sexually assaulted does it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,728 ✭✭✭✭Earthhorse


    Overheal wrote: »
    When my cousin was 17 she thought it would be an awesome idea to go out to clubs and get drunk. Before long you make your friends, bla bla bla....

    Then she went to a house party after a few weeks and her drink was spiked. Whatever substance they gave her didnt knock her out - it paralised her. And she was gang-raped. she witnessed felt and heard the entire thing.

    Yes, I think she had some say in how stupid she was.

    What? Her behaviour may have been reckless but that's about it. She went to a house party with some new friends; I mean, maybe you're not giving us the full picture here and she had reason to suspect they were going to assault her but beyond that I can't see what this really proves?

    darkman2 wrote: »
    Not refering to Overheal but being stupid does not come into this at all then?

    TBH act like a slapper and thats the way you should expect to be treated - reasonable to assume? Able to make your own decisions? Able to take the consequences of being foolish?

    Hmmm, I don't really follow. If you buy a particular brand of car then it's more likely to be stolen. Are you therefore responsible for your car being stolen? I don't know if women wearing less clothing are more likely to be raped but even if they are it in no way confers responsibility for the rape onto them.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,358 ✭✭✭Dennis the Stone


    If I go in to town tomorrow and take out €50 from an ATM and then get robbed before I put it into my wallet, I suppose It's partly my fault for showing off my money to any would-be thieves around.. sigh


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2



    It's too easy to make generalisations

    Its not generalisation - its the select few that do make these risky choices and should know better. I think all the survey really says is that some women should use more cop on. It does not in anyway excuse rapists who deserve everything punishment they get. I dont see this as being unreasonable myself to expect some women to be more careful. I dont see why stupidity should be ignored either in this. Its not just walking alone down dark streets btw.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,387 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    It makes logical sense to me, many get upset over the nature of the crime but just step back and look at it. I never saw it as they are "dressing sexy", they are dressing in a manner which makes the crime easier to commit.

    Women should be able to wear what they like, and not fear being raped- yes but fact is it happens.
    I should be able to walk where I want and not fear being mugged- Yes but it happens.

    A rapist might go out on the prowl looking for a victim, a girl walks by in a tight top with really tight jeans and a belt with makeup etc. Now her twin walks by, no make up wearing a "frumpy" airy dress. Who is sexier? Who is easier to rape?

    I should be able to go down the road counting a wad of 50's with a wallet hanging out my back pocket. Simple fact is I am more likely to be mugged if I do. I am making the crime easier to commit. Just like a burglar will go to a house with no alarm and a window open. They are going to commit the crime like it or not. There are steps that can be made to make it harder for them to, or for them to chose some other poor unfortunate person over you.

    It is not as though 33% of the people said she "deserved to be raped" but some are almost picking it up that way. Substitute another crime in its place and think about it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    keen wrote: »
    And the "short skirt low cut top" point is one of the stupidest things I've heard on the matter.

    Yep, just because someone dresses like a slapper it doesn't mean you have a right to someone's body. It is just a very egotistical excuse for such a horrible crime.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Rape: our blame culture

    By Conor Ryan
    ONE in four people believe women who have been raped are partly to blame for the crime because of how they dressed, their sexual history or how much they had to drink.

    An Irish Examiner/Red C national opinion poll on people’s attitudes to sex crimes found a core section of our society think rape victims are totally or partially responsible for being attacked.

    It found:

    * More than 30% think a victim is some way responsible if she flirts with a man or fails to say no clearly.

    * 10% of people think the victim is entirely at fault if she has had a number of sexual partners.

    * 37% think a woman who flirts extensively is at least complicit, if not completely in the wrong, if she is the victim of a sex crime.

    * One in three think a woman is either partly or fully to blame if she wears revealing clothes.

    * 38% believe a woman must share some of the blame if she walks through a deserted area.

    The results also show that defence barristers, looking to swing the deciding three members in every 12-person jury, can exploit misgivings in certain demographics about the perceived responsibility of female victims.

    Dramatic differences in empathy towards victims based on age and social class are revealed. Gender, however, had little impact.

    In every category, widowed, divorced and separated people took the harshest view on the role of the female victim, compared with married or cohabiting couples.

    The results of the poll support the results of the ground-breaking Sexual Abuse and Violence in Ireland (SAVI) report in 2002, which found 15% of the population believed a raped woman was not an innocent victim.

    The SAVI report, which was published in partnership with the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre, also found 6% of women were raped at some point as adults.

    Only a fraction reported the crime, as they feared they would be blamed or their claims would not be believed.

    Chief executive of the DRCC Ellen O’Malley Dunlop said the findings of the Irish Examiner poll justified victims’ reluctance to come forward and further explained why less than 10% of rape allegations lead to a conviction.

    “By its very nature rape means there is no consent involved, so the perpetrator is fully responsible. Just because a woman is in a situation where she is vulnerable it does not mean she is in any way to blame if she is raped,” she said.

    Ms O’Malley Dunlop said although the SAVI report used broader definitions, she had hoped attitudes to sex crime were improving since 2002.

    The Irish Examiner/Red C poll provided some hope in this regard because younger people were far less likely to say a female rape victim was accountable if she acted in a certain way.

    Responding to the Irish Examiner survey, Amnesty International said the Government has a responsibility to focus on the formal education system in order to change attitudes.

    Cliona Saidlear, policy officer at Rape Crisis Network Ireland (RCNI), said Ireland had the lowest conviction rates for rape in Europe and people needed to understand their attitudes to sex crimes were contributing to the problem.

    “We as a society need to have this discussion. It is not just about what other people can do, these are attitudes we can change ourselves because this is not acceptable. If people are thinking somehow because you are drunk or wear certain clothes you are inviting rape then it makes it even harder for a woman to report what happened. You can see this in the massive levels of under-reporting by the victims of rape.”

    She said it was too easy for people to sit back and say others need to change their attitudes without taking a critical look at themselves.

    “We have to look at what we think, and our own attitudes. We in the RCNI are calling for reform of the legal system and that is badly needed. We also are looking at how the education system can help and that needs to be looked at.

    “But we cannot leave this to sex education classes or changes in the law. This is about how we behave ourselves and if we continue to blame people for a crime committed on them then we will never overcome this problem,” said Ms Saidlear.
    I was listening to a feature about that study on Matt Cooper today (an Examiner journalist was interviewed). Those holding that view are more prevalent among the over 65s which isn't surprising, but also among the under 25s which is bizarre!! :confused:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭Todoquetengo


    Dudess wrote: »
    I was listening to a feature about that study on Matt Cooper today (the Examiner journalist was interviewed). Those holding that view are more prevalent among the over 65s which isn't surprising, but also among the under 25s which is bizarre!! :confused:

    Yeah that is very strange :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,728 ✭✭✭✭Earthhorse


    rubadub wrote: »
    It is not as though 33% of the people said she "deserved to be raped" but some are almost picking it up that way. Substitute another crime in its place and think about it.

    No, 33% of the people said the victim was "partly to blame". I fail to see how they are in any way to "blame" even if they exposed themselves to greater risk.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 412 ✭✭MCMLXXXIII


    I think we need to straighten out the meaning of rape. Seems simple...force yourself upon someone unwilling to sleep with you.

    ...until they decide halfway through (of even after) that they really didn't want to do it.

    Or in the case of defilement, it gets hazy depending on the situation. Many of my friends lost their V-card before they were "of age," and some did it with people 18 years and up. They wanted to do it, so they did. Personaly, I always felt like I am taking advantage of people if I mess around with someone more than 2 years younger than me. That's not the case for everyone though. Point is, it really depends on who finds out about it and how they think it should go... if it goes to the justice system - they will (almost) always be convicted, even just for the political statement.

    Those listed above may make up the 25-33% you speak of.

    Besides that - who cares? People commit crimes, and the only people that are responsible are the criminals.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭Todoquetengo


    darkman2 wrote: »
    Its not generalisation - its the select few that do make these risky choices and should know better. I think all the survey really says is that some women should use more cop on. It does not in anyway excuse rapists who deserve everything punishment they get. I dont see this as being unreasonable myself to expect some women to be more careful. I dont see why stupidity should be ignored either in this. Its not just walking alone down dark streets btw.

    So are you saying that all women who are raped, get raped because of the risks they've taken?

    And I know it's not just about walking alone down dark streets but my example was about you and an incident that could happen to you and whether you would see it as your fault :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    Dudess wrote: »
    I was listening to a feature about that study on Matt Cooper today (the Examiner journalist was interviewed). Those holding that view are more prevalent among the over 65s which isn't surprising, but also among the under 25s which is bizarre!! :confused:

    Indeed. But again I'd say it is a mixture of
    • Males with a big ego saying women are 'asking for it'
    • We all know there can be alot of bitchiness among females, maybe some resenting others for having the 'means' to be able to dress provocatively.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,358 ✭✭✭Dennis the Stone


    Dudess wrote: »
    I was listening to a feature about that study on Matt Cooper today (the Examiner journalist was interviewed). Those holding that view are more prevalent among the over 65s which isn't surprising, but also among the under 25s which is bizarre!! :confused:


    I heard that about the over 65s.. "They're asking for it if you ask me.. in my day women knew how to cover up.. those damn women are too sexy for their own good.. The only way they'll learn is an auld rape or two. Now where's my Daily Mail"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Yeah that is very strange :(
    Older generations - especially religious fundamentalists - have a warped, ugly view of sex, but having read an article in the Sunday Times recently about kids (I'm talking between 12 and 16) being really promiscuous and just using and discarding each other, I wonder if that is applicable to younger generations too...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    And what if the rape victim is male? How do males dress provocativley?

    That aside, I agree with some posters here saying how people need to be careful about what they do and where they do it. Yes a Woman should be allowed to wear a bikini and walk into a bikers club and not get unwanted attention, but...red rag to a bull tbh. I am not saying she was asking for it at all, but a bit of cop on goes a long way. Then again, perhaps most rape victims get raped wearing non going out clothes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,146 ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Earthhorse wrote: »
    Hmmm, I don't really follow. If you buy a particular brand of car then it's more likely to be stolen. Are you therefore responsible for your car being stolen?
    Your not responsible for your car having been stolen, but you are responsible for having bought one that is more likely to be stolen so should be aware of those added risks and take appropriate action to minimise those chances.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Cianos


    robinph wrote: »
    Your not responsible for your car having been stolen, but you are responsible for having bought one that is more likely to be stolen so should be aware of those added risks and take appropriate action to minimise those chances.

    There is no sense in this argument. So, going by the same reasoning, a girl is 'irresponsible' by stepping out her front door at all, and if she wanted to be completely responsible, she should just never leave the house. ever.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 241 ✭✭supertramp


    Hasn't a guy in England only received 4 months for raping a 10 year old, because the judge said she wore revealing clothes?

    Anyone who says that should be fined...


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    supertramp wrote: »
    Hasn't a guy in England only received 4 months for raping a 10 year old, because the judge said she wore revealing clothes?

    Anyone who says that should be fined...
    Do you have a link for that?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Cianos wrote: »
    There is no sense in this argument. So, going by the same reasoning, a girl is 'irresponsible' by stepping out her front door at all, and if she wanted to be completely responsible, she should just never leave the house. ever.

    the difference between driving a piece of **** car and an el diablo is youre 100 times more likely to install electronic alarms, deadswitches, gps tracking and/or a wheeljack into your el diablo.

    I say if you want to dress provocatively: fair play, but wear steel undies.

    Its the individuals responsibility to be aware of the risks and take appropriate preventative actions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 241 ✭✭supertramp


    Do you have a link for that?

    http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/7ADC5FF3-2711-4FC2-A52E-805E46BDC8A2/


    it's in the blue box


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    supertramp wrote: »
    Hasn't a guy in England only received 4 months for raping a 10 year old, because the judge said she wore revealing clothes?

    Anyone who says that should be fined...


    Nah couldn't be England, would have to be some ****hole of a country. Oh wait.....:p

    On a serious note, if that is true, that judge should be struck off for not using any reason in his sentence, just his own personal view.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    supertramp wrote: »

    That is simply shocking. I could understand where the judge was coming from if he met an underage girl in a club and was told by her she was over 18 AND that she consented. But the poor girl was ATTACKED for gods sake, simply bewildering.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭Todoquetengo


    supertramp wrote: »
    Hasn't a guy in England only received 4 months for raping a 10 year old, because the judge said she wore revealing clothes?

    Anyone who says that should be fined...

    The worst part was his comment that she looked older, even if she was 16 she still shouldnt have been raped!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,728 ✭✭✭✭Earthhorse


    robinph wrote: »
    Your not responsible for your car having been stolen, but you are responsible for having bought one that is more likely to be stolen so should be aware of those added risks and take appropriate action to minimise those chances.

    That's not what the people in the survey are saying though so people's reactions in this thread are, by in large, justified.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭ircoha


    Mordeth wrote: »
    what's the biggest cause of paedophilia?

    that's right, sexy children.

    After hours or not the above is WOTT


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,909 ✭✭✭✭Wertz


    I think a big part of this survey is inaccurate in that the meaning of rape is skewed amongst different people.
    Most people think that rapes occur down darkened alleys by attackers wearing ski masks...fact is, for females (and probably children) at least, that you're far more likely to be raped by someone you know or know well, than by a stranger.
    With that in mind, whether or not the victim has worn revealing clothing or not isn't really relevant...sobriety is likely to be a far greater factor, as is the past history of any relationship.
    The accepted figures for stranger V acquaintance rape are ~20% v ~80% respectively.

    http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/ohe/library/violence/statistics.htm

    I can't see that being too much different this side of the water.

    ...it's also accepted that victims are much more likely to report stranger rape than acquaintance rape.

    TBH the attitudes expressed in this poll don't really surprise me...this is still post catholic Ireland and chances are high that there were plenty of older people with different attitudes to sex as a whole, asked their opinions on this. I am shocked however at the under 25's thing...can't figure that one out at all unless they're just really blasé about the whole issue and don't really understand the issues.


    [edit] As regards my own opinion on the issue, women are entitled to dress as they wish, free country etc.
    People go out to meet people and hopefully get their end away...with that in mind they dress accordingly, some more accordingly than others...and yes that is inviting sexual advance, perhaps inviting unwanted sexual advance...but that was likely one of their primary objectives for going out to begin with...
    So oaky, they provocate having an advance made upon them....but they do not invite someone to force themselves upon them, that is entirely down to the attacker.


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