Over 1/3 of people say a victim of rape is partly responsible if....

darkman2

*shock horror* - Id say its higher then that in reality but that is what was said in a survey on rape victims today. A substantial minority believe simply that some (possibly most?) victims bring it on themselves in some way either through wearing 'revealing clothing' (seemingly unaware this attracts attention!) or being intentionally or unintentionally vague about giving their own consent. Rape, of course, is one of the most serious and worst crimes imaginable however I think it is entirely reasonable for the general public to enquire as to why some women (actually many if you go out on a Saturday night in town for example) dont use a bit more cop on.


What do you think?

Karl Hungus

Quite honestly, anyone who believes it's the woman's fault (Or for that matter, man's fault) is an idiot. Rape should not be excused. Might as well start blaming children for paedophiles.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

what's the biggest cause of paedophilia?

that's right, sexy children.

AlmightyCushion

So what you are saying is that if a women is wearing revealing clothing it's their own fault if they get raped? That's just nonsense.

Overheal

The fact remains that I saw more revealing clothes back in my teen disco days than I have in my nightclub days.

*sigh

I think I'm going to file a list of all the after hourers who subscribe to this opinion.
Attend christmas beers.
Stalk each mark until they are suitably incapable of fighting me off.
And see how many root ginger butt plugs I can work my way through.

Give it a try before you post said opinion.....and judge for yourself if it worth it.

Matthewthebig

I Am Shocked And Appalled

keen

The only person to blame is the rapist.

Can't see how anyone can make any sort of valid argument to support the rapist in the slighest.

And the "short skirt low cut top" point is one of the stupidest things I've heard on the matter.

WindSock

I thought it was 25%. And it's the persons fault for looking too hot. They should take a leaf out of Afghanistans books and cover up completely. I bet no one gets raped there.

kittensoft1984

This is a mental report.

Like in reality its not like women go out to get raped is it?

Women should be allowed to wear what they like without the fear that it will be construed as something else.

There was another part of this report that said that women were responsible if they flirted excessively.....like WTF!? i flirt with men....its in my nature. Does that mean i should be fearful of getting raped????

If a woman says no they mean no.

Hellm0

From the very fact that rape is sexual intercourse without consent I do not think that it is excusable in any way shape or form.

That said I do think that there is a possible requirement for legislation to protect men from prosecution when the situation involves large volumes of alcohol intake. That is not to say that it is not rape when the victim is unconscious but rather to prevent a narrative complex where women simply call it rape when they black out and wake up beside someone ugly. The supposed victim may just have had too much to drink etc and not remembered the interaction then filled in the gaps in their memory by supposing that it was rape(lets say hypothetically the female in question was the one who initiated a sexual context).

Of course the above argument is negated when there is a possibility the victim was drugged, in which case there is no doubt that a crime was committed,unless of course the drug's were consumed with consent(IE no taking pill's willingly then saying it was date rape).

AlmightyCushion

kittensoft1984 wrote: »

If a woman says no they mean no.

They really mean yes, they're just playing hard to get.

darkman2

I dont think the people in the survey were asked 'could they defend a rapist?' - no one should do that. However before the morally righteous start getting digs in they might want to read into carefully what is being said - that some women act and dress inappropriately on nights out. Is this being denied by the herd rushing in to get the first response? Attribute absolutely no blame to the woman at all in any circumstance?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

how do you dress inappropriately?

Hellm0

Mordeth wrote: »

how do you dress inappropriately?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

well tbh I'm all for raping emo's.

Overheal

Mordeth wrote: »

how do you dress inappropriately?

when youre 15 years old and your whole back; and stomach; and legs are showing. Basically when you decide you only need to cover 33% of your body.

kittensoft1984

+1

how do women dress inappropriately?

are we living in a society were it is dictated what women are and are not allowed to wear?

granted i am surprised at what some girls wear out on nights out but at the sames time its their choice and they shouldnt have fear because of it

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Overheal wrote: »

when youre 15 years old and your whole back; and stomach; and legs are showing. Basically when you decide you only need to cover 33% of your body.

not too long ago it would have been innapropriate for women to display a bit of ankle or, ye gods, knees!.

Society didn't implode then, I don't think it's going to do so now either.

slut away girls, slut away.

Overheal

Sadly they cant be told what not to wear but you have to assume that what you wear has an affect on how much of a target you are.

Educate them and let them make the choice; but educate them.

darkman2

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Quite honestly, anyone who believes it's the woman's fault is an idiot.

No one said it was 'the woman's fault' - It was all about 'partial' blame...i.e do you think what a woman wears (for example) will attract unwanted attention? - The answer is going to be yes unfortunately no matter how full of milk and honey some seem to think the world is.

Fremen

I think I'd like to see the exact wording of that poll. Women, or men for that matter, can do things which make them much more likely to be sexually assaulted: Getting into a taxi and going home with a complete stranger, for example.

Does that make them responsible for the rape? No. Is it a foolish thing to do? I would say yes. You could interpret the words "partly responsible" as having taken a course of action which increased their likelihood of being raped, though.

kittensoft1984

there is no blame on the victims part.

not even partial blame

how can anyone honestly say that it is the victims fault?

darkman2

kittensoft1984 wrote: »

how can anyone honestly say that it is the victims fault?

Once again - no one did.......:rolleyes:


From RTE

Almost 33% of those surveyed thought a victim was in some way responsible for being raped if she flirted with a man or failed to say 'no' clearly.

10% of people felt the victim was entirely at fault if she had a number of sexual partners.

One in three believed a woman was either partly or fully to blame if she wore revealing clothes.

Nearly one in four people felt that a woman must share some of the blame if she walked through a deserted area.

25% believed a woman who was drunk and took illegal drugs was either partly or fully to blame.

The survey also found that adults under the age of 25 were far more likely to blame a raped woman than people aged 25 to 44.

Overheal

When my cousin was 17 she thought it would be an awesome idea to go out to clubs and get drunk. Before long you make your friends, bla bla bla....

Then she went to a house party after a few weeks and her drink was spiked. Whatever substance they gave her didnt knock her out - it paralised her. And she was gang-raped. she witnessed felt and heard the entire thing.

Yes, I think she had some say in how stupid she was.

Dennis the Stone

WindSock wrote: »

They should take a leaf out of Afghanistans books and cover up completely. I bet no one gets raped there.

I don't know.. those US troops are damn horny fellows

kittensoft1984

Overheal wrote: »

When my cousin was 17 she thought it would be an awesome idea to go out to clubs and get drunk. Before long you make your friends, bla bla bla....

Then she went to a house party after a few weeks and her drink was spiked. Whatever substance they gave her didnt knock her out - it paralised her. And she was gang-raped. she witnessed felt and heard the entire thing.

Yes, I think she had some say in how stupid she was.

yes it was foolish but her drink was spiked....she wasnt to blame.

Todoquetengo

I'd like to know how many people they surveyed , but if it is a properly conducted survey then it's shocking that a third of people think that. No wonder so many rapes go unreported, how could you feel that people would believe you? A lot of victims already blame themselves even though it's not thier fault and this report and talk like it doesn't help. It's very sad.

seahorse

The very definition of rape and sexual assault is the experience of unwanted and uninvited sexual contact, so anyone who thinks it is actually possible to ‘want’ or ‘invite’ rape or sexual assault (either by way or their clothing or lack of it) is clearly misunderstanding and in need of examining the meaning of those terms.

Overheal

kittensoft1984 wrote: »

yes it was foolish but her drink was spiked....she wasnt to blame.

and yet every smart girl I ever served working in a nightclub knew to keep her thumb on her bottle-mouth or her hand over her glass.

youth need to be educated

its OK though a few weeks later she and her dad were in the parking lot of a Wal-Mart when they saw one of the guys. He just charged into him and beat him into the ground. When people tried to pull him off he shouted "he raped my daughter!" and everyone let him go for it

darkman2

kittensoft1984 wrote: »

yes it was foolish but her drink was spiked....she wasnt to blame.

Not refering to Overheal but being stupid does not come into this at all then?


TBH act like a slapper and thats the way you should expect to be treated - reasonable to assume? Able to make your own decisions? Able to take the consequences of being foolish?

Fremen

Almost 33% of those surveyed thought a victim was in some way responsible for being raped if she flirted with a man or failed to say 'no' clearly.

10% of people felt the victim was entirely at fault if she had a number of sexual partners.

One in three believed a woman was either partly or fully to blame if she wore revealing clothes.

Nearly one in four people felt that a woman must share some of the blame if she walked through a deserted area.

25% believed a woman who was drunk and took illegal drugs was either partly or fully to blame.

Ok, that's a bit disturbing. I think "blame" is completely the wrong choice of word. A woman walking alone through a deserted area late at night is a fool, but I hardly think a rape is her fault.

AlmightyCushion

overheal wrote:

and yet every smart girl I ever served working in a nightclub knew to keep her thumb on her bottle-mouth.

I've never seen anyone do that. The pill could still get through depending on how small it is. How does that stop people with pints getting spiked?

Todoquetengo

darkman2 wrote: »

Able to make your own decisions? Able to take the consequences of being foolish?

So if you went for a few drinks some night, got jumped on when walking home and raped by a guy or guys would you accept the consequences of your foolishness, i.e. drinking alcohol, walking around after dark?

It's too easy to make generalisations

kittensoft1984

"if she flirted with a man"

how absurd is that! women and men for that matter flirt all the time!!!

its human nature. it doesnt mean that they want to be raped or sexually assaulted does it?

Earthhorse

Overheal wrote: »

When my cousin was 17 she thought it would be an awesome idea to go out to clubs and get drunk. Before long you make your friends, bla bla bla....

Then she went to a house party after a few weeks and her drink was spiked. Whatever substance they gave her didnt knock her out - it paralised her. And she was gang-raped. she witnessed felt and heard the entire thing.

Yes, I think she had some say in how stupid she was.

What? Her behaviour may have been reckless but that's about it. She went to a house party with some new friends; I mean, maybe you're not giving us the full picture here and she had reason to suspect they were going to assault her but beyond that I can't see what this really proves?

darkman2 wrote: »

Not refering to Overheal but being stupid does not come into this at all then?

TBH act like a slapper and thats the way you should expect to be treated - reasonable to assume? Able to make your own decisions? Able to take the consequences of being foolish?

Hmmm, I don't really follow. If you buy a particular brand of car then it's more likely to be stolen. Are you therefore responsible for your car being stolen? I don't know if women wearing less clothing are more likely to be raped but even if they are it in no way confers responsibility for the rape onto them.

Dennis the Stone

If I go in to town tomorrow and take out €50 from an ATM and then get robbed before I put it into my wallet, I suppose It's partly my fault for showing off my money to any would-be thieves around.. sigh

darkman2

Todoquetengo wrote: »

It's too easy to make generalisations

Its not generalisation - its the select few that do make these risky choices and should know better. I think all the survey really says is that some women should use more cop on. It does not in anyway excuse rapists who deserve everything punishment they get. I dont see this as being unreasonable myself to expect some women to be more careful. I dont see why stupidity should be ignored either in this. Its not just walking alone down dark streets btw.

rubadub

It makes logical sense to me, many get upset over the nature of the crime but just step back and look at it. I never saw it as they are "dressing sexy", they are dressing in a manner which makes the crime easier to commit.

Women should be able to wear what they like, and not fear being raped- yes but fact is it happens.
I should be able to walk where I want and not fear being mugged- Yes but it happens.

A rapist might go out on the prowl looking for a victim, a girl walks by in a tight top with really tight jeans and a belt with makeup etc. Now her twin walks by, no make up wearing a "frumpy" airy dress. Who is sexier? Who is easier to rape?

I should be able to go down the road counting a wad of 50's with a wallet hanging out my back pocket. Simple fact is I am more likely to be mugged if I do. I am making the crime easier to commit. Just like a burglar will go to a house with no alarm and a window open. They are going to commit the crime like it or not. There are steps that can be made to make it harder for them to, or for them to chose some other poor unfortunate person over you.

It is not as though 33% of the people said she "deserved to be raped" but some are almost picking it up that way. Substitute another crime in its place and think about it.

Handsome Bob

keen wrote: »

And the "short skirt low cut top" point is one of the stupidest things I've heard on the matter.

Yep, just because someone dresses like a slapper it doesn't mean you have a right to someone's body. It is just a very egotistical excuse for such a horrible crime.

Dudess

Irish Examiner wrote:

Rape: our blame culture

By Conor Ryan
ONE in four people believe women who have been raped are partly to blame for the crime because of how they dressed, their sexual history or how much they had to drink.

An Irish Examiner/Red C national opinion poll on people’s attitudes to sex crimes found a core section of our society think rape victims are totally or partially responsible for being attacked.

It found:

* More than 30% think a victim is some way responsible if she flirts with a man or fails to say no clearly.

* 10% of people think the victim is entirely at fault if she has had a number of sexual partners.

* 37% think a woman who flirts extensively is at least complicit, if not completely in the wrong, if she is the victim of a sex crime.

* One in three think a woman is either partly or fully to blame if she wears revealing clothes.

* 38% believe a woman must share some of the blame if she walks through a deserted area.

The results also show that defence barristers, looking to swing the deciding three members in every 12-person jury, can exploit misgivings in certain demographics about the perceived responsibility of female victims.

Dramatic differences in empathy towards victims based on age and social class are revealed. Gender, however, had little impact.

In every category, widowed, divorced and separated people took the harshest view on the role of the female victim, compared with married or cohabiting couples.

The results of the poll support the results of the ground-breaking Sexual Abuse and Violence in Ireland (SAVI) report in 2002, which found 15% of the population believed a raped woman was not an innocent victim.

The SAVI report, which was published in partnership with the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre, also found 6% of women were raped at some point as adults.

Only a fraction reported the crime, as they feared they would be blamed or their claims would not be believed.

Chief executive of the DRCC Ellen O’Malley Dunlop said the findings of the Irish Examiner poll justified victims’ reluctance to come forward and further explained why less than 10% of rape allegations lead to a conviction.

“By its very nature rape means there is no consent involved, so the perpetrator is fully responsible. Just because a woman is in a situation where she is vulnerable it does not mean she is in any way to blame if she is raped,” she said.

Ms O’Malley Dunlop said although the SAVI report used broader definitions, she had hoped attitudes to sex crime were improving since 2002.

The Irish Examiner/Red C poll provided some hope in this regard because younger people were far less likely to say a female rape victim was accountable if she acted in a certain way.

Responding to the Irish Examiner survey, Amnesty International said the Government has a responsibility to focus on the formal education system in order to change attitudes.

Cliona Saidlear, policy officer at Rape Crisis Network Ireland (RCNI), said Ireland had the lowest conviction rates for rape in Europe and people needed to understand their attitudes to sex crimes were contributing to the problem.

“We as a society need to have this discussion. It is not just about what other people can do, these are attitudes we can change ourselves because this is not acceptable. If people are thinking somehow because you are drunk or wear certain clothes you are inviting rape then it makes it even harder for a woman to report what happened. You can see this in the massive levels of under-reporting by the victims of rape.”

She said it was too easy for people to sit back and say others need to change their attitudes without taking a critical look at themselves.

“We have to look at what we think, and our own attitudes. We in the RCNI are calling for reform of the legal system and that is badly needed. We also are looking at how the education system can help and that needs to be looked at.

“But we cannot leave this to sex education classes or changes in the law. This is about how we behave ourselves and if we continue to blame people for a crime committed on them then we will never overcome this problem,” said Ms Saidlear.

I was listening to a feature about that study on Matt Cooper today (an Examiner journalist was interviewed). Those holding that view are more prevalent among the over 65s which isn't surprising, but also among the under 25s which is bizarre!!

Todoquetengo

Dudess wrote: »

I was listening to a feature about that study on Matt Cooper today (the Examiner journalist was interviewed). Those holding that view are more prevalent among the over 65s which isn't surprising, but also among the under 25s which is bizarre!!

Yeah that is very strange

Earthhorse

rubadub wrote: »

It is not as though 33% of the people said she "deserved to be raped" but some are almost picking it up that way. Substitute another crime in its place and think about it.

No, 33% of the people said the victim was "partly to blame". I fail to see how they are in any way to "blame" even if they exposed themselves to greater risk.

MCMLXXXIII

I think we need to straighten out the meaning of rape. Seems simple...force yourself upon someone unwilling to sleep with you.

...until they decide halfway through (of even after) that they really didn't want to do it.

Or in the case of defilement, it gets hazy depending on the situation. Many of my friends lost their V-card before they were "of age," and some did it with people 18 years and up. They wanted to do it, so they did. Personaly, I always felt like I am taking advantage of people if I mess around with someone more than 2 years younger than me. That's not the case for everyone though. Point is, it really depends on who finds out about it and how they think it should go... if it goes to the justice system - they will (almost) always be convicted, even just for the political statement.

Those listed above may make up the 25-33% you speak of.

Besides that - who cares? People commit crimes, and the only people that are responsible are the criminals.

Todoquetengo

darkman2 wrote: »

Its not generalisation - its the select few that do make these risky choices and should know better. I think all the survey really says is that some women should use more cop on. It does not in anyway excuse rapists who deserve everything punishment they get. I dont see this as being unreasonable myself to expect some women to be more careful. I dont see why stupidity should be ignored either in this. Its not just walking alone down dark streets btw.

So are you saying that all women who are raped, get raped because of the risks they've taken?

And I know it's not just about walking alone down dark streets but my example was about you and an incident that could happen to you and whether you would see it as your fault :rolleyes:

Handsome Bob

Dudess wrote: »

I was listening to a feature about that study on Matt Cooper today (the Examiner journalist was interviewed). Those holding that view are more prevalent among the over 65s which isn't surprising, but also among the under 25s which is bizarre!!

Indeed. But again I'd say it is a mixture of

• Males with a big ego saying women are 'asking for it'
• We all know there can be alot of bitchiness among females, maybe some resenting others for having the 'means' to be able to dress provocatively.

Dennis the Stone

Dudess wrote: »

I was listening to a feature about that study on Matt Cooper today (the Examiner journalist was interviewed). Those holding that view are more prevalent among the over 65s which isn't surprising, but also among the under 25s which is bizarre!!

I heard that about the over 65s.. "They're asking for it if you ask me.. in my day women knew how to cover up.. those damn women are too sexy for their own good.. The only way they'll learn is an auld rape or two. Now where's my Daily Mail"

Dudess

Todoquetengo wrote: »

Yeah that is very strange

Older generations - especially religious fundamentalists - have a warped, ugly view of sex, but having read an article in the Sunday Times recently about kids (I'm talking between 12 and 16) being really promiscuous and just using and discarding each other, I wonder if that is applicable to younger generations too...

WindSock

And what if the rape victim is male? How do males dress provocativley?

That aside, I agree with some posters here saying how people need to be careful about what they do and where they do it. Yes a Woman should be allowed to wear a bikini and walk into a bikers club and not get unwanted attention, but...red rag to a bull tbh. I am not saying she was asking for it at all, but a bit of cop on goes a long way. Then again, perhaps most rape victims get raped wearing non going out clothes.

robinph

Earthhorse wrote: »

Hmmm, I don't really follow. If you buy a particular brand of car then it's more likely to be stolen. Are you therefore responsible for your car being stolen?

Your not responsible for your car having been stolen, but you are responsible for having bought one that is more likely to be stolen so should be aware of those added risks and take appropriate action to minimise those chances.

Cianos

robinph wrote: »

Your not responsible for your car having been stolen, but you are responsible for having bought one that is more likely to be stolen so should be aware of those added risks and take appropriate action to minimise those chances.

There is no sense in this argument. So, going by the same reasoning, a girl is 'irresponsible' by stepping out her front door at all, and if she wanted to be completely responsible, she should just never leave the house. ever.