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do athiests and agnostics go to heaven

12357…11

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  • #122
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    What would you have me tell them? Jesus loves? Well He doesn't, He absolutely hates them......His hatred for them is worse than I can express on these pages. If you're gonna talk about God then tell the whole story not just the lovey dovey part.
    What a horrible thing to say! Jesus loves every one of us but He hates sin, not the sinner! People need to hear about God's mercy more than His justice. If I wanted to tell someone about Christianity, I wouldn't start by telling them about God's wrath. I would emphasise God's mercy telling people that there is no sin that cannot be forgiven. God's justice applies after someone dies.

    Having said there is a tendency to deemphasise sin these days. People have lost a sense of sin and lots of us need education on what's right and wrong. I'm not saying that the reality of Hell should be kept quite but too much emphasis on it, like we had in Ireland in the 50s, can lead to despair. People need to hear the Good News in today's troubled world.


  • #123
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Akrasia wrote: »
    except those hundreds of millions of evangelicals are in the minority of christians. The conception that most christians have of god, is that he is a merciful, just and loving god who rewards goodness and abhors evil.
    I was referring to the numbers so as to stress that this is a common belief that would be familiar to anyone with a smattering of knowledge about Christianity. Therefore it should not be necessary to spell it out in every detail each time the subject reappears on these boards (about once a month, I believe).

    Whether it is a majority or minority view is open to debate, but hardly has relevance to the truthfulness of belief.
    Your position implies that mentally disabled, newborn babies, people in remote civilisations and those brought up in non christian societies are all doomed to damnation just because they don't believe in jesus. The vast vast majority of people would consider that to be unfair, un just, and inconsistent with their view of the christian god.
    No it doesn't. If you bothered to read my posts, including in this thread, then you would see that I do not believe that at all - nor do the vast majority of Evangelicals.


  • #124
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    PDN wrote: »
    It has been discussed dozens of times on this board, but I don't think we would expect you to read all the old threads. Some of them are pretty mind-numbing.
    I'm not surprised really! Suffice to say this is the first thread in "Christianity" that I've posted in, so...
    The doctrines I am describing are hardly unknown. The biblical doctrines of justification by faith and assurance of faith are held by hundreds of millions of evangelical Christians and would, I should think, be very basic for anyone wanting to discuss the beliefs of Christianity.
    Humm, this comes across a little condescending to be honest. :( I was raised a catholic, and taught in a catholic school, and, have been up to now been civil and asked plain straight questions, and gave plain straight opinions. If you don't like that fine. With an attitude like that the is not need to continue.

    Kelly1: You seem to have level understanding I can relate to, so I'll gladly continue this topic with yourself :o


  • #125
    jawlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 384 ✭✭jawlie


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Jesus loves every one of us but He hates sin, not the sinner! People need to hear about God's mercy more than His justice.

    I wish John Charles McQuaid had had your slant on what Jesus wanted.


  • #126
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Zulu wrote: »
    Humm, this comes across a little condescending to be honest. :( I was raised a catholic, and taught in a catholic school, and, have been up to now been civil and asked plain straight questions, and gave plain straight opinions. If you don't like that fine. With an attitude like that the is not need to continue.

    And I have given you plain, straight answers.

    If I wanted to discuss Roman Catholic doctrine with you then I would try to familiarise myself with what the Roman Catholic Church believed. Ireland is rapidly becoming a pluralistic and multicultural society, so I hardly think it's condescending to expect the major groups of Christians to make some effort to understand what each other believe.


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  • #127
    hairyheretic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭hairyheretic


    PDN wrote: »
    If Hitler had sincerely repented and believed on Christ, then yes, I believe he would be saved.

    Just like that?

    No need to make ammends for the actions he commited?


  • #128
    CaptainNemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭CaptainNemo


    PDN wrote: »
    So those of us who are Christians are either fake, unspiritual or dumb. Nice one. :rolleyes:

    That's not fair. I said "mainstream Christianity". Genuine spiritual seekers are rare and not catered for by the mainstream of most religions, which is catered for people who basically just want to get by, have families, work, and be generally good people. You put a lot of words into my mouth there that were not intended.


  • #129
    CaptainNemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭CaptainNemo


    kelly1 wrote: »
    The bible is neither a scientific nor an historical book. Nobody is required to believe that the universe was created in 6 days or in Noah's ark.

    Well like I said, that really depends on who you talk to and what sect of Christianity you belong to. Some people do believe those things literally, and believe the Bible to be a historical book.


  • #130
    CaptainNemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭CaptainNemo


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    Christianity is not about having a deep spirituality, that is modern day accepted version of what the world thinks Christianity should be. Real Christianity is a daily battle against the wiles of the Devil. If you don't believe in the Devil then you are not a Christian. If you want to know what Christianity really is then I suggest you read the epistles of St. Paul to the Ephesians, Romans, Galatians and so on.

    Your version of Christianity may be what you believe to be the "real" version, but I think you will find that you are in a tiny minority, and I'm very grateful for that.


  • #131
    CaptainNemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭CaptainNemo


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    It makes sense in this wise. God is love but being love is not what makes Him all powerful. He could still be love and not be all powerful but that would mean He's not really God. In other words being love is not what makes Him God, having all power is what does that. Love is but an attribute of God but He doesn't need it to be God. I thank God that He is a loving God though.

    I don't know why you're making these statements with such authority, since they are essentially meaningless, but I guess that's the theological argument game at its best :D Good luck anyway, I will stick with my modern, simplistic "God is Love" and you can stick with fighting the Devil. Then everyone's happy.


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  • #132
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Considering the fact that the devil is an evil malevolent very powerful being that seems to exist purely to subvert the will of god, how do you know that the bible wasn't written or inspired by the devil?

    Surely a creature like the devil would have the intelligence and motivation to do everything it could to corrupt the words of god?

    If there is a being like Satan who's sole purpose is to deceive and lie and corrupt, how can we trust anything?

    Jesus said: "My sheep know my voice"


  • #133
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    CaptainNemo wrote: »
    Your version of Christianity may be what you believe to be the "real" version, but I think you will find that you are in a tiny minority, and I'm very grateful for that.

    Remember in the New Testament the majority were always wrong even when they wanted to crown Jesus. You can have the majority. What I proclaim here is not my version of Christianity. If I am saying somehting that is contrary to the book then show me. Go check the book and prove me wrong from that and not from your own warped ideas of what you think Christianity is.


  • #134
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    CaptainNemo wrote: »
    I don't know why you're making these statements with such authority, since they are essentially meaningless, but I guess that's the theological argument game at its best :D Good luck anyway, I will stick with my modern, simplistic "God is Love" and you can stick with fighting the Devil. Then everyone's happy.

    You do that, be my guest, and stay wrong. Jesus believed in the Devil, Paul believed in the Devil, so tell me is their take on these things essentially meaningless too?


  • #135
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    kelly1 wrote: »
    What a horrible thing to say! Jesus loves every one of us but He hates sin, not the sinner! People need to hear about God's mercy more than His justice. If I wanted to tell someone about Christianity, I wouldn't start by telling them about God's wrath. I would emphasise God's mercy telling people that there is no sin that cannot be forgiven. God's justice applies after someone dies.

    Having said there is a tendency to deemphasise sin these days. People have lost a sense of sin and lots of us need education on what's right and wrong. I'm not saying that the reality of Hell should be kept quite but too much emphasis on it, like we had in Ireland in the 50s, can lead to despair. People need to hear the Good News in today's troubled world.

    The book of Revelation has some pretty horrible things to say as well, but it also states that "Blessed are those who read it." I would only preach the goodness of God to those who are in need of it but to those who couldn't care less I tell them the horrible side of God. The nasty side. Why cast your pearls before swine?


  • #136
    eoin5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    The book of Revelation has some pretty horrible things to say as well, but it also states that "Blessed are those who read it." I would only preach the goodness of God to those who are in need of it but to those who couldn't care less I tell them the horrible side of God. The nasty side. Why cast your pearls before swine?

    I could care less? Most of my friends are christians and I care for them so I do care a lot in fact, otherwise I wouldnt bother posting here or bother trying to understand christianity. I reckon that most of the non-christian people posting here are genuine and want to engage in meaningful discussion too.

    Would god not want you to preach his love to those who do not believe or do you just want it all for yourself?

    I've read revelations and it was a good read but I dont think its made me blessed.


  • #137
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    eoin5 wrote: »
    I could care less? Most of my friends are christians and I care for them so I do care a lot in fact, otherwise I wouldnt bother posting here or bother trying to understand christianity. I reckon that most of the non-christian people posting here are genuine and want to engage in meaningful discussion too.

    Some do but not all. I can smell a snide remark a mile away and respond in kind. I haven't yet ascended to the dizzying heights of humility that those who find it easy to turn the other cheek have. I'll get there some day damn it...
    eoin5 wrote: »
    Would god not want you to preach his love to those who do not believe or do you just want it all for yourself?

    God wants me to trust Him when He says something. Especially when a circumstance in my life contradicts what His Word promises. E.G. Sickness when He promises health and so on. I'll preach that to anyone willing to listen or who are genuinely seeking it. But I can discern that in a split second just from reading their posts, which sadly is rare in here, so I get out my two edged sword instead :cool:
    eoin5 wrote: »
    I've read revelations and it was a good read but I dont think its made me blessed.

    Well you've read it so you have the promise that you are blessed even if you don't feel it. It doesn't say you have to feel it does it? Just trust that it is true, that is what faith is, trusting God's Word despite how you feel in the natural.


  • #138
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    PDN wrote: »
    And I have given you plain, straight answers....
    Dripping in a condescending tone.

    "Soul Winner" in my understanding of christianity, a very important trait of a good christian is humility. Is that the same of your understanding?


  • #139
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    hairyheretic wrote: »
    Just like that?

    No need to make ammends for the actions he commited?
    Certainly not according to my faith. He would get a very severe punishment in Purgatory before going to Heaven.


  • #140
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,249 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    Jesus said: "My sheep know my voice"

    How do you know he said that? maybe the devil said that pretending to be jesus?

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #141
    hairyheretic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭hairyheretic


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Certainly not according to my faith. He would get a very severe punishment in Purgatory before going to Heaven.

    Do you believe that he warrants ever being allowed into heaven?


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  • #142
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    hairyheretic wrote: »
    Do you believe that he warrants ever being allowed into heaven?
    Nobody warrants Heaven. It's only by God's mercy that anyone gets there. God's mercy is greater that Hitler's sins.


  • #143
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    Akrasia wrote: »
    How do you know he said that? maybe the devil said that pretending to be jesus?

    And why would Satan do that?


  • #144
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    Zulu wrote: »
    "Soul Winner" in my understanding of christianity, a very important trait of a good christian is humility. Is that the same of your understanding?

    More important than humility is faith in God's Word. If you get this one right then all the other traits of God will come in time as long as the grip of faith is maintained. Faith gets God's Spirit in you and keeps it in you, and the Spirit will change your nature and daily you will become more like God and your old self will have less of a grip on you. The problem with Christianity is that they try to do this change with wilful fleshly effort and loose faith in God as a result. They inevitably bring God's standard down to a performance level that they can perform in the flesh and put everyone else down for not rising to that standard instead of preaching the good news of Jesus that He does the changing and all you need is to trust Him. Would you rather I came here and sounded like someone like that with false humility?


  • #145
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    No, I'd just expect a little humility in your posts. I've seen none.


  • #146
    CaptainNemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭CaptainNemo


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    Remember in the New Testament the majority were always wrong even when they wanted to crown Jesus. You can have the majority. What I proclaim here is not my version of Christianity. If I am saying somehting that is contrary to the book then show me. Go check the book and prove me wrong from that and not from your own warped ideas of what you think Christianity is.

    There are different versions of Christianity. By the definition of yours mine is wrong; that's cool, but stop pretending yours is the only valid one. Statements like that are nothing but pride and fear.


  • #147
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    Zulu wrote: »
    No, I'd just expect a little humility in your posts. I've seen none.

    As apposed to your posts which are just ooozing with it I suppose?


  • #148
    CaptainNemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭CaptainNemo


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    You do that, be my guest, and stay wrong. Jesus believed in the Devil, Paul believed in the Devil, so tell me is their take on these things essentially meaningless too?

    The Gospels are not full of Jesus going around telling people to arm themselves for the fight against the devil, but adjurations to love and self-sacrifice. If you find me one of the former I will find you ten of the latter.


  • #149
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    CaptainNemo wrote: »
    There are different versions of Christianity. By the definition of yours mine is wrong; that's cool, but stop pretending yours is the only valid one. Statements like that are nothing but pride and fear.

    Look through the Bible. God wants one thing. Faith! Nothing else pleases Him. Nothing!


  • #150
    CaptainNemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭CaptainNemo


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    Look through the Bible. God wants one thing. Faith! Nothing else pleases Him. Nothing!

    I really get the impression you're much more of an Old Testament kind of guy than I am! We should be very clear about the fact that I do not believe in your kind of God and do not admit your belief to be more valid than mine.


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  • #151
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    As apposed to your posts which are just ooozing with it I suppose?
    I'm not claiming to be christian though, Soul Winner. ;)

    And I'm certainly not claiming to know what god wants. I leave that kind of arrogance to others. (not directed at anyone in particular)


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