do athiests and agnostics go to heaven

Pompey Magnus

Nullandvoid wrote: »

If there is a God and he is forgiving then surely one can be forgiven after death for not believing. Also if someone like Jesus came into the world nowadays how many so called believers would really believe him to be who he claims to be?.. Very few I'd imagine. This I believe shows that everyone is a doubter really and those who can admit this without fear deserve respect. Its easy to say you believe when your faith is never put to the test!

This would be an ideal God, but it is not the God of any religion. Why? Because when the creators of the religions were assigning (human) characteristics to their gods it was essential to have some method for ensuring people didn't leave the faith, they achieved this by assigning harsher and harsher punishments to people who doubted or disbelieved. The creators of the Judeo-Christian religion assigned a certain degree of forgiveness to their god, but not when it came to disbelief in him.

It is an obvious tactic to use in order to improve the success of the faith, a truely forgiving God would not last very long, the meaner and more jealous the better. This is why the myth of Doubting Thomas originated in Christianity and why early christian invented as nasty a Hell as they could concieve in their twisted minds. Thomas played the part of the agnostic (but he had the good fortune of being able to repent when shown physical evidence) and Hell was the punishment for the unrependent doubters.

eoin5

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Also Read Revelation 21vs8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death".

Im sure "all liars" would cover just about everyone. Fearful? Arent you supposed to fear god!? The bible is such a weird book. Anyways an eternal hot springs doesnt sound too bad .

Sorcerers! I guess I've made the odd sigil so its off to the hot springs for me so

kelly1

timetogetfit wrote: »

if they are good people?

Good according to whom?

A person cannot be considered just before God if they don't believe in Him or His Son. And if you don't believe in God, you would therefore see no point in repenting and asking for forgiveness. And if you die impenitent and in a state of mortal, you are facing a fiery eternity. It's grace that justifies us before God and refusing this grace through God's mercy is a "sure fire" way to Hell.

Akrasia

Soul Winner wrote: »

Fair has nothing to do with it. God doesn't have to be fair.

Yes he does. He is supposed to be a perfect being. He is supposed to be merciful and just
Fairness and justice go hand in hand. There is nothing at all fair or just about condemning the vast majority of people to eternal damnation just because they made a rational choice based on the empirical evidence they saw around them. (there are loads of rational reasons why someone would choose to be an atheist, or choose to worship a different god or choose a different kind of spiritualty)

Akrasia

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

No, according to scripture I would presume that all Athiests and agnostics will end up in hell no matter how good they are.

Read Isaiah 64vs6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away".

Also Read Revelation 21vs8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death".

Im sure unbelieving would cover Athiests.

the bible also commanded people to kill rebellious sons. If you believe in the bible, why aren't you demanding the death sentence for juvenile delinquents?

Pompey Magnus

I have to say that they Christian consensus here that only they have a chance of getting to Heaven because they are right and everyone else is wrong is reminding me how glad I am to have gotten out of the faith and reminding me how sure I am that if there is a God it couldn't possibly be the Christian God as nothing that powerful could be so petty. I detest the idea of exclusivity and I pity the people who feel it seperates them from the plebs, be that in real life or the afterlife. It is just like that shower in the Portmarnock Golf Club who wanted the Club for men only, women need not apply.

Akrasia

Nullandvoid wrote: »

If there is a God and he is forgiving then surely one can be forgiven after death for not believing. Also if someone like Jesus came into the world nowadays how many so called believers would really believe him to be who he claims to be?.. Very few I'd imagine. This I believe shows that everyone is a doubter really and those who can admit this without fear deserve respect. Its easy to say you believe when your faith is never put to the test!

there have been loads of second comings of christ in the 100 years. why haven't all the christians on this board been rushing to these people prepared to worship them?

How do they think the real second coming will reveal himself?

Akrasia

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You may of course find some Christians hovering around the lunatic fringe

This is a very common attitude amongst religious people. Anyone who interprets the bible differently from me is a lunatic/fool/heratic/fundamentalist/a la cart christian/literalist/interpretationalist/misguided/uneducated/wrong.
But I'm 100% right, and if you don't believe in the exact same things I do, you will go to hell.

kelly1

Akrasia wrote: »

the bible also commanded people to kill rebellious sons.

Really? Can you provide a quote from the OT (I presume)?

Akrasia

kelly1 wrote: »

Really? Can you provide a quote from the OT (I presume)?

Come on kelly, you know it, it's been posted here loads of times already.

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; ...... And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21

kelly1

Akrasia wrote: »

Come on kelly, you know it, it's been posted here loads of times already.

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; ...... And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21

It was a genuine quesion. I wasn't aware of this passage. Now I need to go off and find out how stoning was justified in light of Deut 5:17 (Thou shalt not muder)!

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

Now I need to go off and find out how stoning was justified in light of Deut 5:17 (Thou shalt not muder)!

Ask wolfsbane -- he can justify it (to himself!) with some impromptu wordplay.

Out of interest, have you considered the possibility that it may not be possible to justify it? And that the text might actually be wrong here?

Rev Hellfire

robindch wrote: »

Ask wolfsbane -- he can justify it (to himself!) with some impromptu wordplay.

Out of interest, have you considered the possibility that it may not be possible to justify it? And that the text might actually be wrong here?

Interesting, so the revised fifth commandment should read:

5, Thou shalt murder

Now who said religion doesn't make sense

Zulu

I'm agnostic. I don't know if there's a god, but I'll err on the side of caution.

timetogetfit wrote: »

if they are good people?

According to my Catholic upbringing and education - Of course.

Soul Winner wrote: »

No, because they don't believe in heaven and therefore don't believe in God.

Agnostics don't not believe either. Either way it's irrelevant, you don't need a belief in god. A good person is a good person, and if there is a god, (s)he would gladly accept any of his/her creations that obayed his/her general rules regardless of sitting in one place for 40 mins each week to be bored.

Being good in an ethically moral sense of the word is not good enough even if you do believe in heaven.

Yes it is.

You need faith.

No you don't.

There are plenty of so called religious people that are not going to heaven either. Why? Because they rely on their own works of righteousness instead of trusting in the Lord.

That's a bit convoluted. They wouldn't get in because they are bad people.

Only people with faith in God are going to heaven. That is the only ticket in.

I don't believe that for one minute. It's total bullsh1t.

timetogetfit wrote: »

So let me get this straight if you dont believe in heaven or HELL but are a charity worker in a third world country and are an all round good person the same fate as sadam hussein,hitler and child abductors awaits you

Exactly, if a god did exist, clearly this person would get into heaven

Soul Winner wrote: »

Fair has nothing to do with it.

It has everything to do with it. God is fair, or else god is a contradiction.

God doesn't have to be fair.

(s)he doesn't have to be anything - (S)he just is - either good or bad. To say god isn't fair is a misrepresentation of god. Who are you to do that?

In His grace He has provided the only way to eternal life and that is through His Son Jesus and if you reject that then what can God do about it?

That's the human interpretation of it. And human interpretation is the one thing we can categorically say has been proven wrong time and time and time and time and time again.

Anyone who ends up in eternal death have chosen it for themselves by not clinging onto the promise of what God provided in the work of Jesus,

...I'd say (s)he'd be more interested in you getting on with the life (s)he gave you and living it in a good way, than worrying about "clinging to one promise"

I don't know which board bothers me the most, the atheists for their condescending, arrogant, and dismissive attitude towards religious people, or the religious people for their aloof, condescending and damning attitude towards the atheists. I'm sure if there was a god, (s)he would be proud.

mossieh

Frankly, if heaven is going to be populated by people like Gerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, George W Bush, Archbishop McQuaid, Joseph Ratzinger and all those other good shepherds, I'd prefer to take my chances with the crooks. It sounds like a club you don't want to be in.
On the other hand, in hell, you'd have the usual suspects, Hitler, Stalin, the Maharishi etc, who might not be the most convivial company but at least it woulldn't be boring.

By the way, where is heaven? Have christian scientists got any theories on that? Another dimension, planet or what?

Zulu

I doubt dubbay would make the grade, but sure I'm sure you could avoid him. But to be honest, when he's not in charge of running a country or your pension - he would probably be great craic!?!

I reckon heaven would be in another dimension - or transdimensional maybe?
I couldn't really be a planet imo, thats too tangable.

kelly1

mossieh wrote: »

Frankly, if heaven is going to be populated by people like Gerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, George W Bush, Archbishop McQuaid, Joseph Ratzinger and all those other good shepherds, I'd prefer to take my chances with the crooks. It sounds like a club you don't want to be in.
On the other hand, in hell, you'd have the usual suspects, Hitler, Stalin, the Maharishi etc, who might not be the most convivial company but at least it woulldn't be boring.

Do you mean to say that you think Hell could be entertaining in some way? The whole point of Hell is that it's a place of punishment devoid of any sort of enjoyment or pleasure. It's amazing how many atheists say they would prefer Hell to Heaven. Talked about warped!

mossieh

kelly1 wrote: »

Do you mean to say that you think Hell could be entertaining in some way? The whole point of Hell is that it's a place of punishment devoid of any sort of enjoyment or pleasure. It's amazing how many atheists say they would prefer Hell to Heaven. Talked about warped!

Ah Noel, it can hardly be warped seeing as we don't believe in either, but tell me this, what do you imagine (note I said imagine, I know you can't really know) heaven is really like? Hell has been fairly clearly defined here and elsewhere but I've yet to hear a detailed description of heaven that doesn't involve god's glory, heavenly choirs etc. It sounds like a bit like deal or no deal (another game I don't understand). The expression 'better the devil you know' comes to mind.

And what a sickener it would be to pass on all the multifarious sinful pleasures in this life only to find out that heaven was the dullest place in the cosmos.

interestinguser

kelly1 wrote: »

It was a genuine quesion. I wasn't aware of this passage. Now I need to go off and find out how stoning was justified in light of Deut 5:17 (Thou shalt not muder)!

Well would it be considered murder going by OT definitions? When a person is put to death in a country that uses capital punishment it is not considered murder? In a war if a solider kills another solider it is not considered murder.
There is a different between Thou shall not kill and Thou shall not murder.

There is plenty of killing in the OT, the god and his followers so a command of thou shall not kill wouldn't really make a lot of sense.

PDN

In response to the OP - I don't believe that anyone, atheist or Christian, is really 'good'. I think we are all pretty selfish, and that we just use 'good' in a comparative way to say we are less bad than others. For example, Gandhi was less bad than the priests in the Inquisition who killed 'heretics' - but that doesn't mean Gandhi was 'good' in any objective sense of the term. It's a bit like saying Mary Harney is good looking if you compare her to Jade Goody.

Zaph wrote: »

As an alternative question, and assuming heaven exists, as believers would you be disappointed if atheists went to heaven despite not believing, whereas you'd have lived a more devout life?

I will be delighted if I get to heaven and find that all the atheists made it there after all. My beliefs about heaven and hell are not based on wishful thinking, but on what I believe to be the revealed Word of God.

1stimpressions

If heaven can only be entered by those with faith it seems quite unfair no? The majority of people living i would imagine and the massive majority of human life in the past (billions upon billions) have not been taught the christianity that they can put their faith in, thus god is leaving 99.99% of his human creation without any possibility of redemption.

PDN

1stimpressions wrote: »

If heaven can only be entered by those with faith it seems quite unfair no? The majority of people living i would imagine and the massive majority of human life in the past (billions upon billions) have not been taught the christianity that they can put their faith in, thus god is leaving 99.99% of his human creation without any possibility of redemption.

Many Christians (including myself) do not believe that every single person who never heard the Christian Gospel is therefore going to hell.

Akrasia

kelly1 wrote: »

Do you mean to say that you think Hell could be entertaining in some way? The whole point of Hell is that it's a place of punishment devoid of any sort of enjoyment or pleasure. It's amazing how many atheists say they would prefer Hell to Heaven. Talked about warped!

Heaven sounds like hell.

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." (Revelation 4:8-11)

Worshipping some guy on a throne for all eternity? I'd rather not, thanks very much.

kelly1

mossieh wrote: »

Ah Noel, it can hardly be warped seeing as we don't believe in either, but tell me this, what do you imagine (note I said imagine, I know you can't really know) heaven is really like? Hell has been fairly clearly defined here and elsewhere but I've yet to hear a detailed description of heaven that doesn't involve god's glory, heavenly choirs etc. It sounds like a bit like deal or no deal (another game I don't understand). The expression 'better the devil you know' comes to mind.

To the best of my knowledge the bible doesn't describe Heaven in any detail except to say that it's beyond our imagination and understanding. I believe that there is no comparison between life in a "gross" body and life as a free spirit. When we are released from our physical bodies, there will be no more need for faith. Those who die in a state of grace will sin no more. I believe life with God, face -to-face with our majestic Creator will be nothing short of absolute and total bliss. There will be no suffering and no boredom, only ever-new joy. How anyone could choose Hell over Heaven, is beyond me.

mossieh wrote: »

And what a sickener it would be to pass on all the multifarious sinful pleasures in this life only to find out that heaven was the dullest place in the cosmos.

The so called sinful pleasures that you refer to are like bottles of poison marked "For your enjoyment and pleasure". Heaven will never be dull because God is incapable of being dull.

PDN

Akrasia wrote: »

Worshipping some guy on a throne for all eternity? I'd rather not, thanks very much.

Worship, while part of eternity (as it is part of my present) is certainly not all that we will be doing in heaven.

You might want to read this interesting article about Tom Wright, one of the Church of England's better bishops, and his view that heaven will include work: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1710844,00.html

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge the bible doesn't describe Heaven in any detail except to say that it's beyond our imagination and understanding. I believe that there is no comparison between life in a "gross" body and life as a free spirit. When we are released from our physical bodies, there will be no more need for faith. Those who die in a state of grace will sin no more. I believe life with God, face -to-face with our majestic Creator will be nothing short of absolute and total bliss. There will be no suffering and no boredom, only ever-new joy. How anyone could choose Hell over Heaven, is beyond me.

The so called sinful pleasures that you refer to are like bottles of poison marked "For your enjoyment and pleasure". Heaven will never be dull because God is incapable of being dull.

kelly1

1stimpressions wrote: »

If heaven can only be entered by those with faith it seems quite unfair no? The majority of people living i would imagine and the massive majority of human life in the past (billions upon billions) have not been taught the christianity that they can put their faith in, thus god is leaving 99.99% of his human creation without any possibility of redemption.

Obviously those who lived before the coming of Christ weren't required to believe in Him. But His death on the cross still saved them (in advance). The just remained in the realm of the dead (Sheol?) until Jesus' resurrection. Those who we subject to the Jewish law were judged according to that law. Others would be judged according to their consciences. It will be the same for those who through no fault of their own don't know that Jesus is the only means of salvation. Everyone who ever was or ever will be saved will only be saved through Jesus' death on the cross. God is fair.

nikki 122

Soul Winner wrote: »

No, because they don't believe in heaven and therefore don't believe in God. Being good in an ethically moral sense of the word is not good enough even if you do believe in heaven. You need faith. Acting on God's promises and that is not merely believing that He exists. There are plenty of so called religious people that are not going to heaven either. Why? Because they rely on their own works of righteousness instead of trusting in the Lord. Only people with faith in God are going to heaven. That is the only ticket in.

wat do u believe in so every1 needs faith of sum sort

Soul Winner

Naikon wrote: »

Sarcasm?
Anyway, as an Atheist the fact that I simply cease to exist following death is comforting. Heaven as depicted by the bible sounds like "hell" to me tbh. Not that I look forward to the process of death mind you. When my brain dies I won't be able to perceive anything so heaven and hell is pretty irrelevant.

*note that the above applies to all believers too regardless of their "belief"

Logic > religion

If we simply don't exist after the death then Christians are just fools here and now and so are all other religious people who hope in something else after death. But if they've put their money on the right horse well then that's a different matter. Especially if a lake of fire exists. Heaven might not be what you would like it to be but it has to be better than burning.

Soul Winner

Akrasia wrote: »

its irrelevant to me where you think they end up. but it is highly revealing of the attitude of your religion.

How so? I never said I knew where they would end up. I can only tell you what is revealed in God's Word about how to get there. If atheists don't want to walk that way then that is their choice. Maybe there are atheist that God wants and will get in the end but that is not for me to judge. I asked you did you care where they end up and you came back with the above? How is that answering my question?