do athiests and agnostics go to heaven

timetogetfit

if they are good people?

eoin5

Probably not. I dont think most of them would want to.

I remember someone asking me the same question a bit differently. Who would be more likely to go to heaven, a good atheist or parents who punish their kids for not remembering their prayers?

What do you think?

Soul Winner

timetogetfit wrote: »

if they are good people?

No, because they don't believe in heaven and therefore don't believe in God. Being good in an ethically moral sense of the word is not good enough even if you do believe in heaven. You need faith. Acting on God's promises and that is not merely believing that He exists. There are plenty of so called religious people that are not going to heaven either. Why? Because they rely on their own works of righteousness instead of trusting in the Lord. Only people with faith in God are going to heaven. That is the only ticket in.

eoin5

Can an agnostic theist get in?

Soul Winner

eoin5 wrote: »

Can an agnostic theist get in?

An agnostic theist? That's somebody who's not sure about the existence of God (agnostic) but believes in God (theist)??? If such a creature could exist then he too needs faith in God to get in just like everyone else.

Zaph

For me to go to heaven (or hell) it would have to exist. As far as I'm concerned it's as real as Atlantis or Shangri-La and as it's impossible to go somewhere that doesn't exist, the answer is no.

timetogetfit

The question is intended for people that do believe in god

Zaph

I do appreciate that, but to me it's like Mormons baptising people after they've died - nobody asked them if they wanted it and is therefore very presumptuous.

As an alternative question, and assuming heaven exists, as believers would you be disappointed if atheists went to heaven despite not believing, whereas you'd have lived a more devout life?

eoin5

Soul Winner wrote: »

An agnostic theist? That's somebody who's not sure about the existence of God (agnostic) but believes in God (theist)??? If such a creature could exist then he too needs faith in God to get in just like everyone else.

I'm an agnostic theist. If you take the first definition of agnostic from the free dictionary as: "One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God." And theist as: "Belief in the existence of a god or gods". I dont know if Eris exists in the same way as I dont know if Australia exists (I've never been there so I can only believe the reports). I choose to hold an irrational belief in her because I'd like it if she did exist.

wolfsbane

timetogetfit wrote: »

if they are good people?

If they are good like God, yes. But since everyone is born with a twisted nature, even those who are relatively good cannot enter God's holy presence. They have to be born all over again - given a new heart, a new spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

CerebralCortex

Soul Winner wrote: »

No, because they don't believe in heaven and therefore don't believe in God. Being good in an ethically moral sense of the word is not good enough even if you do believe in heaven. You need faith. Acting on God's promises and that is not merely believing that He exists. There are plenty of so called religious people that are not going to heaven either. Why? Because they rely on their own works of righteousness instead of trusting in the Lord. Only people with faith in God are going to heaven. That is the only ticket in.

I'd get banned if I were to say what I feel about that statement.

Akrasia

so where do all us atheists end up then?

Hell?

Soul Winner

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I'd get banned if I were to say what I feel about that statement.

You don't have to agree with every post you read but just because you cannot express how you feel about it without name calling and bad language that is not my problem.

Soul Winner

Akrasia wrote: »

so where do all us atheists end up then?

Hell?

Do you care where they end up?

wolfsbane

Akrasia wrote: »

so where do all us atheists end up then?

Hell?

Yes:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Jude 14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

timetogetfit

So let me get this straight if you dont believe in heaven or HELL but are a charity worker in a third world country and are an all round good person the same fate as sadam hussein,hitler and child abductors awaits you

eoin5

Soul Winner wrote: »

You don't have to agree with every post you read but just because you cannot express how you feel about it without name calling and bad language that is not my problem.

I'll take a guess and say that he thinks its a bit unfair that god would deny eternal happiness to good people.

Zaph

timetogetfit wrote: »

So let me get this straight if you dont believe in heaven or HELL but are a charity worker in a third world country and are all ground good person the same fate as sadam hussein,hitler and child abductors awaits you

Bit early in the thread for Godwin's Law I would have thought. Either way, you can't believe in one or the other, it's an all or nothing deal.

Why does anything have to await you? You have the satisfaction of knowing that you're a better person than those mentioned while you're alive, why should there be rewards or punishments when you're dead?

CerebralCortex

Soul Winner wrote: »

You don't have to agree with every post you read but just because you cannot express how you feel about it without name calling and bad language that is not my problem.

How very christian of you.

wolfsbane

timetogetfit wrote: »

So let me get this straight if you dont believe in heaven or HELL but are a charity worker in a third world country and are an all round good person the same fate as sadam hussein,hitler and child abductors awaits you

Same place; varying degrees of severity:
Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Soul Winner

timetogetfit wrote: »

So let me get this straight if you dont believe in heaven or HELL but are a charity worker in a third world country and are an all round good person the same fate as sadam hussein,hitler and child abductors awaits you

If the God that is revealed in the OT and NT exists then yes that pretty much some things up. Tradition tells us that we only need to be good and then we are ok. The Bible teaches that only God can be good and without Him in you then it is impossible for you to be good. And you can only get Him in you by trusting Him and once He is in you and maintained in you by continue trusting action He will do the perfecting. You might appear good to others but if God is the judge then only what He thinks matters. And all he wants is faith not perfection. Now you might not like a God like that but that is the one that is revealed and He changes not. If you want to be judged by your good works then you will be and you will be found wanting no matter how good you think you are. Even the most ethically moral amongst us knows that they are not perfect and if you want to be judge by your so called good works then those works better be perfect works or you’ve had it. Or you could just trust in God’s promise that if you believe on Jesus and accept Him into your life by merely speaking with you mouth that you are a sinner in need of His grace and ask Him to forgive you your sins and take you as you are then that is another way in getting in and in fact the only way because nobody can make it by the perfection gate.

Soul Winner

eoin5 wrote: »

I'll take a guess and say that he thinks its a bit unfair that god would deny eternal happiness to good people.

Fair has nothing to do with it. God doesn't have to be fair. In His grace He has provided the only way to eternal life and that is through His Son Jesus and if you reject that then what can God do about it? He's done His part. Anyone who ends up in eternal death have chosen it for themselves by not clinging onto the promise of what God provided in the work of Jesus, which is salvation for those who will accept it, it's right there all you need do is speak it forth. For with the heart man beleives and with the mouth proclamation is made unto salvation. You don't wanna do that? Fine, but don't blame God.

Soul Winner

CerebralCortex wrote: »

How very christian of you.

Is it?

Naikon

Soul Winner wrote: »

Is it?

Sarcasm?
Anyway, as an Atheist the fact that I simply cease to exist following death is comforting. Heaven as depicted by the bible sounds like "hell" to me tbh. Not that I look forward to the process of death mind you. When my brain dies I won't be able to perceive anything so heaven and hell is pretty irrelevant.

*note that the above applies to all believers too regardless of their "belief"

Logic > religion

Akrasia

Soul Winner wrote: »

Do you care where they end up?

its irrelevant to me where you think they end up. but it is highly revealing of the attitude of your religion.

eoin5

Soul Winner wrote: »

Fair has nothing to do with it. God doesn't have to be fair. In His grace He has provided the only way to eternal life and that is through His Son Jesus and if you reject that then what can God do about it? He's done His part. Anyone who ends up in eternal death have chosen it for themselves by not clinging onto the promise of what God provided in the work of Jesus, which is salvation for those who will accept it, it's right there all you need do is speak it forth. For with the heart man beleives and with the mouth proclamation is made unto salvation. You don't wanna do that? Fine, but don't blame God.

If thats the case then god is wanton and silly. I guess I cant blame anyone for being wanton or silly but I certainly wont do what they say unless they force me to.

orestes

Soul Winner wrote: »

If the God that is revealed in the OT and NT exists then yes that pretty much some things up. Tradition tells us that we only need to be good and then we are ok. The Bible teaches that only God can be good and without Him in you then it is impossible for you to be good. And you can only get Him in you by trusting Him and once He is in you and maintained in you by continue trusting action He will do the perfecting. You might appear good to others but if God is the judge then only what He thinks matters. And all he wants is faith not perfection. Now you might not like a God like that but that is the one that is revealed and He changes not. If you want to be judged by your good works then you will be and you will be found wanting no matter how good you think you are. Even the most ethically moral amongst us knows that they are not perfect and if you want to be judge by your so called good works then those works better be perfect works or you’ve had it. Or you could just trust in God’s promise that if you believe on Jesus and accept Him into your life by merely speaking with you mouth that you are a sinner in need of His grace and ask Him to forgive you your sins and take you as you are then that is another way in getting in and in fact the only way because nobody can make it by the perfection gate.

It's not possible for an atheist to be a good person? So not only are any atheists who do charity or humanitarian work going to hell, but they are also bad people?

Some atheists follow the same core ethical principles of christianity (love your neighbour, do unto others, etc) but even though they treat other people the same way as a christian would, they are necessarily bad people while a christian who acts the same way is a good person?

Run_to_da_hills

timetogetfit wrote: »

if they are good people?

No, according to scripture I would presume that all Athiests and agnostics will end up in hell no matter how good they are.

Read Isaiah 64vs6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away".

Also Read Revelation 21vs8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death".

Im sure unbelieving would cover Athiests.

Pompey Magnus

timetogetfit wrote: »

So let me get this straight if you dont believe in heaven or HELL but are a charity worker in a third world country and are an all round good person the same fate as sadam hussein,hitler and child abductors awaits you

Ah now that is going a bit far now to be fair. Perhaps Hitler, moments before he died realised the error of his ways and made a genuine appeal to Jesus to forgive him, in that case God will throw the good charity worker and all the Jews who died in the Nazi Concentration Camps down into Hell so they can suffer for all eternity with all the other rejectors of Christ, while Jesus would be throwing the mother of all parties up in Heaven to celebrate finding his lost sheep, Adolf.

Nullandvoid

If there is a God and he is forgiving then surely one can be forgiven after death for not believing. Also if someone like Jesus came into the world nowadays how many so called believers would really believe him to be who he claims to be?.. Very few I'd imagine. This I believe shows that everyone is a doubter really and those who can admit this without fear deserve respect. Its easy to say you believe when your faith is never put to the test!

Fanny Cradock

orestes wrote: »

It's not possible for an atheist to be a good person? So not only are any atheists who do charity or humanitarian work going to hell, but they are also bad people?

Some atheists follow the same core ethical principles of christianity (love your neighbour, do unto others, etc) but even though they treat other people the same way as a christian would, they are necessarily bad people while a christian who acts the same way is a good person?

As we have had the discussion on morality many times before (try a search if you are interested), I don't think that it was Soul Winner's intention to make a sweeping statement that non-Christians are bad people, whereas Christians are good. You may of course find some Christians hovering around the lunatic fringe who would hold to that belief, but hopefully not too many. After all, the Bible maintains that all have fallen short of the glory of God.

Most Christian's are astute enough to realise that morality - however one chooses to define it - isn't shaped by religious persuasion alone. I would say with certainty that you would find some atheists who are kinder and more compassionate than some Christians and vise versa.

Pompey Magnus

Nullandvoid wrote: »

If there is a God and he is forgiving then surely one can be forgiven after death for not believing. Also if someone like Jesus came into the world nowadays how many so called believers would really believe him to be who he claims to be?.. Very few I'd imagine. This I believe shows that everyone is a doubter really and those who can admit this without fear deserve respect. Its easy to say you believe when your faith is never put to the test!

This would be an ideal God, but it is not the God of any religion. Why? Because when the creators of the religions were assigning (human) characteristics to their gods it was essential to have some method for ensuring people didn't leave the faith, they achieved this by assigning harsher and harsher punishments to people who doubted or disbelieved. The creators of the Judeo-Christian religion assigned a certain degree of forgiveness to their god, but not when it came to disbelief in him.

It is an obvious tactic to use in order to improve the success of the faith, a truely forgiving God would not last very long, the meaner and more jealous the better. This is why the myth of Doubting Thomas originated in Christianity and why early christian invented as nasty a Hell as they could concieve in their twisted minds. Thomas played the part of the agnostic (but he had the good fortune of being able to repent when shown physical evidence) and Hell was the punishment for the unrependent doubters.

eoin5

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Also Read Revelation 21vs8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death".

Im sure "all liars" would cover just about everyone. Fearful? Arent you supposed to fear god!? The bible is such a weird book. Anyways an eternal hot springs doesnt sound too bad .

Sorcerers! I guess I've made the odd sigil so its off to the hot springs for me so

kelly1

timetogetfit wrote: »

if they are good people?

Good according to whom?

A person cannot be considered just before God if they don't believe in Him or His Son. And if you don't believe in God, you would therefore see no point in repenting and asking for forgiveness. And if you die impenitent and in a state of mortal, you are facing a fiery eternity. It's grace that justifies us before God and refusing this grace through God's mercy is a "sure fire" way to Hell.

Akrasia

Soul Winner wrote: »

Fair has nothing to do with it. God doesn't have to be fair.

Yes he does. He is supposed to be a perfect being. He is supposed to be merciful and just
Fairness and justice go hand in hand. There is nothing at all fair or just about condemning the vast majority of people to eternal damnation just because they made a rational choice based on the empirical evidence they saw around them. (there are loads of rational reasons why someone would choose to be an atheist, or choose to worship a different god or choose a different kind of spiritualty)

Akrasia

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

No, according to scripture I would presume that all Athiests and agnostics will end up in hell no matter how good they are.

Read Isaiah 64vs6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away".

Also Read Revelation 21vs8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death".

Im sure unbelieving would cover Athiests.

the bible also commanded people to kill rebellious sons. If you believe in the bible, why aren't you demanding the death sentence for juvenile delinquents?

Pompey Magnus

I have to say that they Christian consensus here that only they have a chance of getting to Heaven because they are right and everyone else is wrong is reminding me how glad I am to have gotten out of the faith and reminding me how sure I am that if there is a God it couldn't possibly be the Christian God as nothing that powerful could be so petty. I detest the idea of exclusivity and I pity the people who feel it seperates them from the plebs, be that in real life or the afterlife. It is just like that shower in the Portmarnock Golf Club who wanted the Club for men only, women need not apply.

Akrasia

Nullandvoid wrote: »

If there is a God and he is forgiving then surely one can be forgiven after death for not believing. Also if someone like Jesus came into the world nowadays how many so called believers would really believe him to be who he claims to be?.. Very few I'd imagine. This I believe shows that everyone is a doubter really and those who can admit this without fear deserve respect. Its easy to say you believe when your faith is never put to the test!

there have been loads of second comings of christ in the 100 years. why haven't all the christians on this board been rushing to these people prepared to worship them?

How do they think the real second coming will reveal himself?

Akrasia

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You may of course find some Christians hovering around the lunatic fringe

This is a very common attitude amongst religious people. Anyone who interprets the bible differently from me is a lunatic/fool/heratic/fundamentalist/a la cart christian/literalist/interpretationalist/misguided/uneducated/wrong.
But I'm 100% right, and if you don't believe in the exact same things I do, you will go to hell.

kelly1

Akrasia wrote: »

the bible also commanded people to kill rebellious sons.

Really? Can you provide a quote from the OT (I presume)?

Akrasia

kelly1 wrote: »

Really? Can you provide a quote from the OT (I presume)?

Come on kelly, you know it, it's been posted here loads of times already.

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; ...... And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21

kelly1

Akrasia wrote: »

Come on kelly, you know it, it's been posted here loads of times already.

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; ...... And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21

It was a genuine quesion. I wasn't aware of this passage. Now I need to go off and find out how stoning was justified in light of Deut 5:17 (Thou shalt not muder)!

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

Now I need to go off and find out how stoning was justified in light of Deut 5:17 (Thou shalt not muder)!

Ask wolfsbane -- he can justify it (to himself!) with some impromptu wordplay.

Out of interest, have you considered the possibility that it may not be possible to justify it? And that the text might actually be wrong here?

Rev Hellfire

robindch wrote: »

Ask wolfsbane -- he can justify it (to himself!) with some impromptu wordplay.

Out of interest, have you considered the possibility that it may not be possible to justify it? And that the text might actually be wrong here?

Interesting, so the revised fifth commandment should read:

5, Thou shalt murder

Now who said religion doesn't make sense

Zulu

I'm agnostic. I don't know if there's a god, but I'll err on the side of caution.

timetogetfit wrote: »

if they are good people?

According to my Catholic upbringing and education - Of course.

Soul Winner wrote: »

No, because they don't believe in heaven and therefore don't believe in God.

Agnostics don't not believe either. Either way it's irrelevant, you don't need a belief in god. A good person is a good person, and if there is a god, (s)he would gladly accept any of his/her creations that obayed his/her general rules regardless of sitting in one place for 40 mins each week to be bored.

Being good in an ethically moral sense of the word is not good enough even if you do believe in heaven.

Yes it is.

You need faith.

No you don't.

There are plenty of so called religious people that are not going to heaven either. Why? Because they rely on their own works of righteousness instead of trusting in the Lord.

That's a bit convoluted. They wouldn't get in because they are bad people.

Only people with faith in God are going to heaven. That is the only ticket in.

I don't believe that for one minute. It's total bullsh1t.

timetogetfit wrote: »

So let me get this straight if you dont believe in heaven or HELL but are a charity worker in a third world country and are an all round good person the same fate as sadam hussein,hitler and child abductors awaits you

Exactly, if a god did exist, clearly this person would get into heaven

Soul Winner wrote: »

Fair has nothing to do with it.

It has everything to do with it. God is fair, or else god is a contradiction.

God doesn't have to be fair.

(s)he doesn't have to be anything - (S)he just is - either good or bad. To say god isn't fair is a misrepresentation of god. Who are you to do that?

In His grace He has provided the only way to eternal life and that is through His Son Jesus and if you reject that then what can God do about it?

That's the human interpretation of it. And human interpretation is the one thing we can categorically say has been proven wrong time and time and time and time and time again.

Anyone who ends up in eternal death have chosen it for themselves by not clinging onto the promise of what God provided in the work of Jesus,

...I'd say (s)he'd be more interested in you getting on with the life (s)he gave you and living it in a good way, than worrying about "clinging to one promise"

I don't know which board bothers me the most, the atheists for their condescending, arrogant, and dismissive attitude towards religious people, or the religious people for their aloof, condescending and damning attitude towards the atheists. I'm sure if there was a god, (s)he would be proud.

mossieh

Frankly, if heaven is going to be populated by people like Gerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, George W Bush, Archbishop McQuaid, Joseph Ratzinger and all those other good shepherds, I'd prefer to take my chances with the crooks. It sounds like a club you don't want to be in.
On the other hand, in hell, you'd have the usual suspects, Hitler, Stalin, the Maharishi etc, who might not be the most convivial company but at least it woulldn't be boring.

By the way, where is heaven? Have christian scientists got any theories on that? Another dimension, planet or what?

Zulu

I doubt dubbay would make the grade, but sure I'm sure you could avoid him. But to be honest, when he's not in charge of running a country or your pension - he would probably be great craic!?!

I reckon heaven would be in another dimension - or transdimensional maybe?
I couldn't really be a planet imo, thats too tangable.

kelly1

mossieh wrote: »

Frankly, if heaven is going to be populated by people like Gerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, George W Bush, Archbishop McQuaid, Joseph Ratzinger and all those other good shepherds, I'd prefer to take my chances with the crooks. It sounds like a club you don't want to be in.
On the other hand, in hell, you'd have the usual suspects, Hitler, Stalin, the Maharishi etc, who might not be the most convivial company but at least it woulldn't be boring.

Do you mean to say that you think Hell could be entertaining in some way? The whole point of Hell is that it's a place of punishment devoid of any sort of enjoyment or pleasure. It's amazing how many atheists say they would prefer Hell to Heaven. Talked about warped!

mossieh

kelly1 wrote: »

Do you mean to say that you think Hell could be entertaining in some way? The whole point of Hell is that it's a place of punishment devoid of any sort of enjoyment or pleasure. It's amazing how many atheists say they would prefer Hell to Heaven. Talked about warped!

Ah Noel, it can hardly be warped seeing as we don't believe in either, but tell me this, what do you imagine (note I said imagine, I know you can't really know) heaven is really like? Hell has been fairly clearly defined here and elsewhere but I've yet to hear a detailed description of heaven that doesn't involve god's glory, heavenly choirs etc. It sounds like a bit like deal or no deal (another game I don't understand). The expression 'better the devil you know' comes to mind.

And what a sickener it would be to pass on all the multifarious sinful pleasures in this life only to find out that heaven was the dullest place in the cosmos.

interestinguser

kelly1 wrote: »

It was a genuine quesion. I wasn't aware of this passage. Now I need to go off and find out how stoning was justified in light of Deut 5:17 (Thou shalt not muder)!

Well would it be considered murder going by OT definitions? When a person is put to death in a country that uses capital punishment it is not considered murder? In a war if a solider kills another solider it is not considered murder.
There is a different between Thou shall not kill and Thou shall not murder.

There is plenty of killing in the OT, the god and his followers so a command of thou shall not kill wouldn't really make a lot of sense.

PDN

In response to the OP - I don't believe that anyone, atheist or Christian, is really 'good'. I think we are all pretty selfish, and that we just use 'good' in a comparative way to say we are less bad than others. For example, Gandhi was less bad than the priests in the Inquisition who killed 'heretics' - but that doesn't mean Gandhi was 'good' in any objective sense of the term. It's a bit like saying Mary Harney is good looking if you compare her to Jade Goody.

Zaph wrote: »

As an alternative question, and assuming heaven exists, as believers would you be disappointed if atheists went to heaven despite not believing, whereas you'd have lived a more devout life?

I will be delighted if I get to heaven and find that all the atheists made it there after all. My beliefs about heaven and hell are not based on wishful thinking, but on what I believe to be the revealed Word of God.