do athiests and agnostics go to heaven

1stimpressions · 18-02-2008 06:10PM

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism, and Judaism traces its timeline back to the Creation of the world. So in that sense they would say that humans have always had God's message available to them.

This fiction does not tally with what we now know about the world, but this does not change the fact that this is what the Bible says and therefore what many Christians are required to believe, unless they are lucky enough to be in one of the sects that do not require literal interpretation of the Old Testament.

To be honest im am aware of the links he is drawing on but i was just trying to get his perspective on how he believes in such. Most "Christians" i would have thought are not of the fundamental kind believing the world is only six thousand years old or whatever and reading contradictorary scenarios etc. I want to understand how the majority of Christians read this situation or is it mostly ignored as i imagine to myself it is.

CaptainNemo · 18-02-2008 06:10PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

Yes God is love, but love is not God.

By the way I'm interested in how this makes any sense to you.

1stimpressions · 18-02-2008 06:16PM

CaptainNemo wrote: »

By the way I'm interested in how this makes any sense to you.

CaptainNemo · 18-02-2008 06:16PM

1stimpressions wrote: »

To be honest im am aware of the links he is drawing on but i was just trying to get his perspective on how he believes in such. Most "Christians" i would have thought are not of the fundamental kind believing the world is only six thousand years old or whatever and reading contradictorary scenarios etc. I want to understand how the majority of Christians read this situation or is it mostly ignored as i imagine to myself it is.

In my opinion, based on the great many Christians I know, these types of questions are avoided because of the uncomfortable logical contradictions they can lead to. Most modern Christian people don't want to think in a fundamentalist way, but they quickly find themselves forced into a corner when debating these kinds of issues with, say, someone taking an atheist or a scientific point of view. So they either have to take a fundamentalist stance, or admit that their religion's teaching doesn't make sense. Much better to avoid the topic and continue to be Christian in a quiet way with prayer, good works, etc.

It's actually a healthy enough response and I don't try to press people too hard on these issue usually, unless they are of a dogmatic mindset. I'd rather someone be religious, reasonably liberal, and a little unscientific and inconsistent, than religious, conservative, dogmatic (but consistent). Few religious people will respond to a scientific attack on their faith with "Oh wow, I never thought of that, clearly my religion is all wrong, thanks for pointing that out!" People change when they are ready, not when you want them to.

Pompey Magnus · 18-02-2008 06:23PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

If we simply don't exist after the death then Christians are just fools here and now and so are all other religious people who hope in something else after death. But if they've put their money on the right horse well then that's a different matter. Especially if a lake of fire exists. Heaven might not be what you would like it to be but it has to be better than burning.

But if you have put you money on the wrong horse you may be in a worse position than atheists. Maybe you chose wrong and the real god is just as jealous as Yahweh and whilst being slightly annoyed at atheists for not believing in him but at least giving them credit for not falling for the false gods, but for the followers of the false gods he will go ballistic with them. Its just as likely to be true as your version of god.

Out of interest if people were offered a choice of either:

(A) Living in a Universe where you are assured that once you die that was it, no Heaven and no Hell, you would have exactly the same status as you had before you were born, you would be completely non-existant.

or

(B) Living in a Universe where there certainly was a Heaven and a Hell, but there was only one way to get into Heaven and that was through choosing the right religion. There was absolutely no way of knowing which religion was the right one and the true faith need not necessarily be the most moral of all the faiths. You have one million religions to chose from. Even guessing right will not be enough to ensure you get to Heaven as you have to follow a set of mostly vague guidelines which often contradict one another, meaning even if you live your life as close to these rules as is humanly possible you could still not be confident of salvation. The reward for guessing right is eternal bliss beyond your wildest dreams, the punishment for guessing wrong is eternal suffering, torture of the highest degree with no hope of ever finding relief.

How many people would prefer the Universe without a god/gods, I know for a certain fact that I jump at it. Of course the best option would be to live in a Universe in which the creator did not demand belief from his creation and was not in any way bothered whether we fell in love with someone of the same gender or decided to have sex before getting married. Unfortunately no religion offers us this option, they are all black and white - you are either with our god or against him.

1stimpressions · 18-02-2008 06:23PM

CaptainNemo wrote: »

In my opinion, based on the great many Christians I know, these types of questions are avoided because of the uncomfortable logical contradictions they can lead to. Most modern Christian people don't want to think in a fundamentalist way, but they quickly find themselves forced into a corner when debating these kinds of issues with, say, someone taking an atheist or a scientific point of view. So they either have to take a fundamentalist stance, or admit that their religion's teaching doesn't make sense. Much better to avoid the topic and continue to be Christian in a quiet way with prayer, good works, etc.

It's actually a healthy enough response and I don't try to press people too hard on these issue usually, unless they are of a dogmatic mindset. I'd rather someone be religious, reasonably liberal, and a little unscientific and inconsistent, than religious, conservative, dogmatic (but consistent). Few religious people will respond to a scientific attack on their faith with "Oh wow, I never thought of that, clearly my religion is all wrong, thanks for pointing that out!" People change when they are ready, not when you want them to.

Ya maybe im coming across like that (preachy atheist?) but im am genuinely enquiring rather than on a mission. I'm 23 and far from settled on what i believe. I'm not expecting a faith collapse but i would like to see where it is coming from. In fact im just putting the questions in a way i would have thought about them as a ten year old, not to entrap anyone.

CaptainNemo · 18-02-2008 06:32PM

1stimpressions wrote: »

Ya maybe im coming across like that (preachy atheist?) but im am genuinely enquiring rather than on a mission. I'm 23 and far from settled on what i believe. I'm not expecting a faith collapse but i would like to see where it is coming from. In fact im just putting the questions in a way i would have thought about them as a ten year old, not to entrap anyone.

The only people whose words I've ever read who made me want to be Christian are:

1) Jesus
2) Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

Jesus himself provides a model for how to be a person in the world. However for a scientist/philospher type like me, that wasn't going to be enough. My rational mind also has to be convinced in some way of a link between what science has convinced me of, and what religion tells me about God. For me, Teilhard de Chardin provided that link. I am cautious about recommending him as reading because the book that changed the way I thought (The Phenomenon of Man) is very difficult reading.

I've gone through too many different religions and ways of thinking to consider myself exactly Christian (or anything else specific). I think Christianity has something quite special but it's hidden. Mainstream Christianity is for the masses and isn't going to satisfy any genuine and intelligent spiritual seeker.

1stimpressions · 18-02-2008 07:21PM

Certainly looks like interesting reading from a quick wikipedia look. Thanks for that Nemo.

PDN · 18-02-2008 08:30PM

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Mainstream Christianity is for the masses and isn't going to satisfy any genuine and intelligent spiritual seeker.

So those of us who are Christians are either fake, unspiritual or dumb. Nice one. :rolleyes:

Zulu · 18-02-2008 08:39PM

PDN wrote: »

I don't think it is presumptuous to believe what the Bible says. Assurance of salvation, or knowing that you're saved, is an important biblical concept.

So you are assured you'll get into heaven? I taught there was a little more to it than that - like say, obeying the yen commandments etc..

Maybe you have never experienced real worship?

Well maybe I haven't - whats real worship (in your understanding) and I'll let you know.

threeleggedhors wrote: »

Believing in anything where there's no physical proof either means you're a lunatic or are unintelligent, in my opinion.

FYI, thats an ignorant and condescending opinion to have. (and I'm using the literal meaning of them words). There are plenty of people who are far more "intelligent" than you who believe. You'd do well to remember that. A little respect isn't a bad thing you know.

Can anyone in this world offer even a sound reasoning as to why a God has to exist ?

Sound reasoning - I can offer one. In order for me to be here typing, according to Darwin (which I accept btw) try to calculate the probability. It's an incalculable number. Like winning the lotto everytime there a draw for a million years. Seriously think about it. The chance of a star, multiply the chance of a planet a distance from that star, multiply the chance of water, multiply the chance of basic organic life, now think of every permutation of life and the steps and the chance of their success from basic life to where we are now. Consider that number. Now what are the odds that could have happened without guidance. If there is no god - we won the biggest lotto that can be concieved!

The rest of you post is all kinda bible - which I don't really put any weight in so I wouldn't suggest you do either.

kelly1 wrote: »

Soul Winner, whatever you do, don't become a preacher.

+1

Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to remind the apostles of everything He told them. The Gospel is infallible since it is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

...yea, but according to who? Jesus said that, but it was recorded by someone else. ...and noone claims Jesus wrote the bible, so it's second hand a best. To me that makes it very very fallible.

1stimpressions wrote: »

Certainly looks like interesting reading from a quick wikipedia look. Thanks for that Nemo.

Yea the Jesuits are good. I like DeMillo for meditations of a non religious but spiritual pov

PDN · 18-02-2008 08:40PM

1stimpressions wrote: »

Sorry im bad at multi quotes but i do want to make a number of replies.
I wrote evil/bad because i knew the language was not precise enough. Fair enough they are massively relative terms but what im trying to point out is the system is weighed in favour of those who know nothing/ are ignorant of the situation. using a grosse but fitting analogy. if you are exposed to 100% of christian teachings and have little or no faith in god you are doomed. If you live in a tribe in the north pole and do good deeds and can grasp the idea that a greater being created what was around you giving you 0% exposure but maybe 10% worthiness or whatever, giving you a safer passage to god. Im not saying that is not the system, im saying if it is, its not in any form fair to the overwhelming majority of god's creation. Whether Christians believe spreading that word is besides the point really.

Well you keep saying this, but then you are creating a straw man rather than addressing what Christians really believe.

It doesn't matter whether you are at the North Pole or anywhere else. The vast majority of people cheat, lie and act selfishly. God will judge according to the light we have received, but how many people really live up to the light they have received?

Most Christians believe that the number of North Polers who would make it to heaven without hearing the Gospel would be far less than the percentage (anywhere from 10% to 50% depending on your definitions - and, let's face it, none of us can really judge who is Christian and who isn't) of those who hear a real presentation of the Gospel and respond to it.

About kids. Fair enough you want your daughter to have the opportunity. But the law of averages, 99% of your future family will not be saved under the model.

No, that would only be true if Christians constituted 1% or less of the world's population.

Christian beliefs is fair enough but im trying to get a perspective of the creators on his creation humankind. It is fact that Jesus' life and teaching are only in this world for two thousand years, so there were no christians before that to begin with nevermind humans interaction with christ from the beginning. There was certainly no "knowledge" for most of gods creation.

Irrespective of how old we think the human race is, Christians believe that the first people were in communion with God. So, if the human race is 100 million years old (for example) then I would believe that God was communicating with man 10 million years ago.

PDN · 18-02-2008 08:42PM

Zulu wrote: »

So you are assured you'll get into heaven? I taught there was a little more to it than that - like say, obeying the yen commandments etc..

Not according to the Bible.

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life...Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son... Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him. John 3:14-16,18,36

kelly1 · 18-02-2008 09:33PM

CaptainNemo wrote: »

In my opinion, based on the great many Christians I know, these types of questions are avoided because of the uncomfortable logical contradictions they can lead to. Most modern Christian people don't want to think in a fundamentalist way, but they quickly find themselves forced into a corner when debating these kinds of issues with, say, someone taking an atheist or a scientific point of view. So they either have to take a fundamentalist stance, or admit that their religion's teaching doesn't make sense.

The bible is neither a scientific nor an historical book. Nobody is required to believe that the universe was created in 6 days or in Noah's ark.

kelly1 · 18-02-2008 10:01PM

Zulu wrote: »

So you are assured you'll get into heaven? I taught there was a little more to it than that - like say, obeying the yen commandments etc..

You're right there.

Zulu wrote: »

...yea, but according to who? Jesus said that, but it was recorded by someone else. ...and noone claims Jesus wrote the bible, so it's second hand a best. To me that makes it very very fallible.

Jesus made the promise. Would He have entrusted the writing of the bible to people whom He knew would corrupt His message?

Soul Winner · 18-02-2008 10:12PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Soul Winner, whatever you do, don't become a preacher. You don't paint a very merciful or loving picture of God. People want to know that God cares about them. You give the impression that God doesn't really love us as if Jesus died on the cross purely out of a sense of duty and not love.

Yeah but I like to balance out all the lovey dovey stuff with a bit of the other side of God's nature. Maybe some will listen more as a result because the lovey dovey stuff doesn't seem to work with many these days. Stop apologising for God and getting on the defensive about His methods with mankind. God isn’t on trial, mankind is. There are some out there that don't like a God like that and all I'm telling them is that God doesn't care what they like. What would you have me tell them? Jesus loves? Well He doesn't, He absolutely hates them. Why do you think He's pictured as treading the winepress of the fury of God's Wrath in the book of Revelation? His first coming was to set the captives free and to provide salvation for those whom He has chosen (whom He loves) but His second coming is to pour out His furious anger on the world that hates and rejects Him. His hatred for them is worse than I can express on these pages. If you're gonna talk about God then tell the whole story not just the lovey dovey part.

Zulu · 18-02-2008 10:19PM

PDN wrote: »

Not according to the Bible.

...so according to the bible, I can completely disregard the 10 commandments say, so long as I believe in god? That makes no sense PDN, surly someone who actually believes in god, and knows the 10 commandments yet completely disregards them and breaks them is worse and couldn't make in it into heaven? I mean they couldn't even plead ignorance.
Sorry, I don't buy that.

kelly1 wrote: »

Jesus made the promise. Would He have entrusted the writing of the bible to people whom He knew would corrupt His message?

I take your point kelly1, but sure that promise itself was second hand information!

...so potentially that's also flawed.

Soul Winner · 18-02-2008 10:19PM

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Sure, but this understanding of God is based on literal interpretation of the Old Testament which is not something I recommend for those who want to have a deep spirituality and remain Christian.

Christianity is not about having a deep spirituality, that is modern day accepted version of what the world thinks Christianity should be. Real Christianity is a daily battle against the wiles of the Devil. If you don't believe in the Devil then you are not a Christian. If you want to know what Christianity really is then I suggest you read the epistles of St. Paul to the Ephesians, Romans, Galatians and so on.

Zulu · 18-02-2008 10:23PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

Christianity is not about having a deep spirituality, that is modern day accepted version of what the world thinks Christianity should be. Real Christianity is a daily battle against the wiles of the Devil. If you don't believe in the Devil then you are not a Christian. If you want to know what Christianity really is then I suggest you read the epistles of St. Paul to the Ephesians, Romans, Galatians and so on.

...or in other words the older version that is no longer accepted? :rolleyes:

Perhaps you should consider why it's no longer accepted.

Soul Winner · 18-02-2008 10:30PM

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Originally Posted by Soul Winner
Yes God is love, but love is not God.

By the way I'm interested in how this makes any sense to you.

It makes sense in this wise. God is love but being love is not what makes Him all powerful. He could still be love and not be all powerful but that would mean He's not really God. In other words being love is not what makes Him God, having all power is what does that. Love is but an attribute of God but He doesn't need it to be God. I thank God that He is a loving God though.

Soul Winner · 18-02-2008 10:33PM

Zulu wrote: »

...or in other words the older version that is no longer accepted? :rolleyes:

Perhaps you should consider why it's no longer accepted.

Pray tell what are you talking about?

PDN · 18-02-2008 10:35PM

Zulu wrote: »

...so according to the bible, I can completely disregard the 10 commandments say, so long as I believe in god? That makes no sense PDN, surly someone who actually believes in god, and knows the 10 commandments yet completely disregards them and breaks them is worse and couldn't make in it into heaven? I mean they couldn't even plead ignorance.
Sorry, I don't buy that.

But that, of course, is not what I said.

The teaching of the New Testament states that all of us have failed to observe the Commandments - so if we want to get to heaven on that basis we've all missed the boat!

Salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ. And part of the confirmation that our faith is genuine is that we love other people and obey the commands of Jesus Christ.

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." the words of Jesus - John5:24

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. (Romans 10:9-10)

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. (1 John 3:14-15)

Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. (1 John 3:21-24)

So, we are saved by faith in Christ. Keeping the commandments and other good works are a confirmation of something that has already happened.

So please don't misrepresent me as saying that you can carry on living by breaking all the commandments and still go to heaven.

The biblical doctrine of assurance of salvation is entirely consistent with living a life that is loving and moral. But ultimately the ground of our confidence is what the Bible promises to those who have faith. The good works are merely a consequence of our faith and a confirmation of something that we already know to be true on the basis of what the Bible says.

Zulu · 18-02-2008 10:48PM

PDN wrote: »

But that, of course, is not what I said....
So please don't misrepresent me as saying that you can carry on living by breaking all the commandments and still go to heaven.

Well I won't misrepresent you if you are clearer; you see this is the first time you mentioned that. Previously you said you'd get into heaven just for believing. I can only go on what you're saying here.

Soul Winner wrote: »

I was called a looser with no reason added as to why except the remark that he doesn’t agree that God can get pissed off.

Sorry, I got tthe impression god was called a looser

And you never pulled him up on his childishness. So I couldn't think of a better way to respond than to show how childish someone is by just being childish in response,

Well you could try the adult approach of a) ignoring or b) reporting the post, but hey, I'm not a mod, and it's between you boys.

and I never mentioned God in that post either so how am I making Him out to be a petulant spoilt child? I probably made myself out to be one but not Him.

Well your description on god to me is one of a spoilt petulant cruel child. (Which I personally don't believe - so never mind)

Zulu · 18-02-2008 10:49PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

Pray tell what are you talking about?

"Real Christianity is a daily battle against the wiles of the Devil. If you don't believe in the Devil then you are not a Christian. If you want to know what Christianity really is then I suggest you read the epistles of St. Paul to the Ephesians, Romans, Galatians and so on."

Akrasia · 18-02-2008 10:56PM

PDN wrote: »

Not according to the Bible.

so if hitler believed in Jesus he'd get into heaven, while Ghandi would be condemned to eternal punishment?

PDN · 18-02-2008 10:59PM

Zulu wrote: »

Well I won't misrepresent you if you are clearer; you see this is the first time you mentioned that. Previously you said you'd get into heaven just for believing. I can only go on what you're saying here.

It has been discussed dozens of times on this board, but I don't think we would expect you to read all the old threads. Some of them are pretty mind-numbing.

The doctrines I am describing are hardly unknown. The biblical doctrines of justification by faith and assurance of faith are held by hundreds of millions of evangelical Christians and would, I should think, be very basic for anyone wanting to discuss the beliefs of Christianity.

PDN · 18-02-2008 11:02PM

Akrasia wrote: »

so if hitler believed in Jesus he'd get into heaven, while Ghandi would be condemned to eternal punishment?

If Hitler had sincerely repented and believed on Christ, then yes, I believe he would be saved.

As for Gandhi, if he understood the Gospel and chose to reject it to the end, then yes, I believe he would be condemned.

Since I don't know what went on in either of their heads throughout their lives, it would be presumptuous of me to say where either of them are right now. That judgment belongs to God - not to you or me.

Akrasia · 18-02-2008 11:07PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

If you don't believe in the Devil then you are not a Christian.

Considering the fact that the devil is an evil malevolent very powerful being that seems to exist purely to subvert the will of god, how do you know that the bible wasn't written or inspired by the devil?

Surely a creature like the devil would have the intelligence and motivation to do everything it could to corrupt the words of god?

If there is a being like Satan who's sole purpose is to deceive and lie and corrupt, how can we trust anything?

Akrasia · 18-02-2008 11:11PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

It makes sense in this wise. God is love but being love is not what makes Him all powerful. He could still be love and not be all powerful but that would mean He's not really God. In other words being love is not what makes Him God, having all power is what does that. Love is but an attribute of God but He doesn't need it to be God. I thank God that He is a loving God though.

that doesn't make any sense. Especially in a dichotomous universe where god is good and satan is evil.

If God is good and bad, then there is no need for a satan. Either god is lying to us, or the bible is a work of fiction.

estebancambias · 18-02-2008 11:12PM

To be honest, from my impression of some of the comments about God here, it appears that 'he' is a sort of John Kramer(Jigsaw*SAW*) putting people in impossible positions. 'We are all bad', surely this sort of outlook can't be good!!!

*I had such a detailed message about the Kramer comparisons, but I hit a blank*

Akrasia · 18-02-2008 11:16PM

PDN wrote: »

It has been discussed dozens of times on this board, but I don't think we would expect you to read all the old threads. Some of them are pretty mind-numbing.

The doctrines I am describing are hardly unknown. The biblical doctrines of justification by faith and assurance of faith are held by hundreds of millions of evangelical Christians and would, I should think, be very basic for anyone wanting to discuss the beliefs of Christianity.

except those hundreds of millions of evangelicals are in the minority of christians. The conception that most christians have of god, is that he is a merciful, just and loving god who rewards goodness and abhors evil.

Your position implies that mentally disabled, newborn babies, people in remote civilisations and those brought up in non christian societies are all doomed to damnation just because they don't believe in jesus. The vast vast majority of people would consider that to be unfair, un just, and inconsistent with their view of the christian god.

do athiests and agnostics go to heaven

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