do athiests and agnostics go to heaven

timetogetfit · 17-02-2008 04:28PM #1

if they are good people?

eoin5 · 17-02-2008 04:37PM

Probably not. I dont think most of them would want to.

I remember someone asking me the same question a bit differently. Who would be more likely to go to heaven, a good atheist or parents who punish their kids for not remembering their prayers?

What do you think?

Soul Winner · 17-02-2008 04:52PM

timetogetfit wrote: »

if they are good people?

No, because they don't believe in heaven and therefore don't believe in God. Being good in an ethically moral sense of the word is not good enough even if you do believe in heaven. You need faith. Acting on God's promises and that is not merely believing that He exists. There are plenty of so called religious people that are not going to heaven either. Why? Because they rely on their own works of righteousness instead of trusting in the Lord. Only people with faith in God are going to heaven. That is the only ticket in.

eoin5 · 17-02-2008 04:58PM

Can an agnostic theist get in?

Soul Winner · 17-02-2008 05:01PM

eoin5 wrote: »

Can an agnostic theist get in?

An agnostic theist? That's somebody who's not sure about the existence of God (agnostic) but believes in God (theist)??? If such a creature could exist then he too needs faith in God to get in just like everyone else.

Zaph · 17-02-2008 05:05PM

For me to go to heaven (or hell) it would have to exist. As far as I'm concerned it's as real as Atlantis or Shangri-La and as it's impossible to go somewhere that doesn't exist, the answer is no.

timetogetfit · 17-02-2008 05:07PM

The question is intended for people that do believe in god

Zaph · 17-02-2008 05:16PM

I do appreciate that, but to me it's like Mormons baptising people after they've died - nobody asked them if they wanted it and is therefore very presumptuous.

As an alternative question, and assuming heaven exists, as believers would you be disappointed if atheists went to heaven despite not believing, whereas you'd have lived a more devout life?

eoin5 · 17-02-2008 05:18PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

An agnostic theist? That's somebody who's not sure about the existence of God (agnostic) but believes in God (theist)??? If such a creature could exist then he too needs faith in God to get in just like everyone else.

I'm an agnostic theist. If you take the first definition of agnostic from the free dictionary as: "One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God." And theist as: "Belief in the existence of a god or gods". I dont know if Eris exists in the same way as I dont know if Australia exists (I've never been there so I can only believe the reports). I choose to hold an irrational belief in her because I'd like it if she did exist.

wolfsbane · 17-02-2008 05:18PM

timetogetfit wrote: »

if they are good people?

If they are good like God, yes. But since everyone is born with a twisted nature, even those who are relatively good cannot enter God's holy presence. They have to be born all over again - given a new heart, a new spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

CerebralCortex · 17-02-2008 05:27PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

No, because they don't believe in heaven and therefore don't believe in God. Being good in an ethically moral sense of the word is not good enough even if you do believe in heaven. You need faith. Acting on God's promises and that is not merely believing that He exists. There are plenty of so called religious people that are not going to heaven either. Why? Because they rely on their own works of righteousness instead of trusting in the Lord. Only people with faith in God are going to heaven. That is the only ticket in.

I'd get banned if I were to say what I feel about that statement.

Akrasia · 17-02-2008 05:54PM

so where do all us atheists end up then?

Hell?

Soul Winner · 17-02-2008 05:56PM

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I'd get banned if I were to say what I feel about that statement.

You don't have to agree with every post you read but just because you cannot express how you feel about it without name calling and bad language that is not my problem.

Soul Winner · 17-02-2008 05:58PM

Akrasia wrote: »

so where do all us atheists end up then?

Hell?

Do you care where they end up?

wolfsbane · 17-02-2008 06:06PM

Akrasia wrote: »

so where do all us atheists end up then?

Hell?

Yes:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Jude 14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

timetogetfit · 17-02-2008 06:11PM

So let me get this straight if you dont believe in heaven or HELL but are a charity worker in a third world country and are an all round good person the same fate as sadam hussein,hitler and child abductors awaits you

eoin5 · 17-02-2008 06:11PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

You don't have to agree with every post you read but just because you cannot express how you feel about it without name calling and bad language that is not my problem.

I'll take a guess and say that he thinks its a bit unfair that god would deny eternal happiness to good people.

Zaph · 17-02-2008 06:16PM

timetogetfit wrote: »

So let me get this straight if you dont believe in heaven or HELL but are a charity worker in a third world country and are all ground good person the same fate as sadam hussein,hitler and child abductors awaits you

Bit early in the thread for Godwin's Law I would have thought. Either way, you can't believe in one or the other, it's an all or nothing deal.

Why does anything have to await you? You have the satisfaction of knowing that you're a better person than those mentioned while you're alive, why should there be rewards or punishments when you're dead?

CerebralCortex · 17-02-2008 06:34PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

You don't have to agree with every post you read but just because you cannot express how you feel about it without name calling and bad language that is not my problem.

How very christian of you.

wolfsbane · 17-02-2008 06:52PM

timetogetfit wrote: »

So let me get this straight if you dont believe in heaven or HELL but are a charity worker in a third world country and are an all round good person the same fate as sadam hussein,hitler and child abductors awaits you

Same place; varying degrees of severity:
Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Soul Winner · 17-02-2008 11:07PM

timetogetfit wrote: »

So let me get this straight if you dont believe in heaven or HELL but are a charity worker in a third world country and are an all round good person the same fate as sadam hussein,hitler and child abductors awaits you

If the God that is revealed in the OT and NT exists then yes that pretty much some things up. Tradition tells us that we only need to be good and then we are ok. The Bible teaches that only God can be good and without Him in you then it is impossible for you to be good. And you can only get Him in you by trusting Him and once He is in you and maintained in you by continue trusting action He will do the perfecting. You might appear good to others but if God is the judge then only what He thinks matters. And all he wants is faith not perfection. Now you might not like a God like that but that is the one that is revealed and He changes not. If you want to be judged by your good works then you will be and you will be found wanting no matter how good you think you are. Even the most ethically moral amongst us knows that they are not perfect and if you want to be judge by your so called good works then those works better be perfect works or you’ve had it. Or you could just trust in God’s promise that if you believe on Jesus and accept Him into your life by merely speaking with you mouth that you are a sinner in need of His grace and ask Him to forgive you your sins and take you as you are then that is another way in getting in and in fact the only way because nobody can make it by the perfection gate.

Soul Winner · 17-02-2008 11:15PM

eoin5 wrote: »

I'll take a guess and say that he thinks its a bit unfair that god would deny eternal happiness to good people.

Fair has nothing to do with it. God doesn't have to be fair. In His grace He has provided the only way to eternal life and that is through His Son Jesus and if you reject that then what can God do about it? He's done His part. Anyone who ends up in eternal death have chosen it for themselves by not clinging onto the promise of what God provided in the work of Jesus, which is salvation for those who will accept it, it's right there all you need do is speak it forth. For with the heart man beleives and with the mouth proclamation is made unto salvation. You don't wanna do that? Fine, but don't blame God.

Soul Winner · 17-02-2008 11:19PM

CerebralCortex wrote: »

How very christian of you.

Is it?

Naikon · 17-02-2008 11:32PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

Is it?

Sarcasm?
Anyway, as an Atheist the fact that I simply cease to exist following death is comforting. Heaven as depicted by the bible sounds like "hell" to me tbh. Not that I look forward to the process of death mind you. When my brain dies I won't be able to perceive anything so heaven and hell is pretty irrelevant.

*note that the above applies to all believers too regardless of their "belief"

Logic > religion

Akrasia · 17-02-2008 11:38PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

Do you care where they end up?

its irrelevant to me where you think they end up. but it is highly revealing of the attitude of your religion.

eoin5 · 17-02-2008 11:39PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

Fair has nothing to do with it. God doesn't have to be fair. In His grace He has provided the only way to eternal life and that is through His Son Jesus and if you reject that then what can God do about it? He's done His part. Anyone who ends up in eternal death have chosen it for themselves by not clinging onto the promise of what God provided in the work of Jesus, which is salvation for those who will accept it, it's right there all you need do is speak it forth. For with the heart man beleives and with the mouth proclamation is made unto salvation. You don't wanna do that? Fine, but don't blame God.

If thats the case then god is wanton and silly. I guess I cant blame anyone for being wanton or silly but I certainly wont do what they say unless they force me to.

orestes · 18-02-2008 12:51AM

Soul Winner wrote: »

If the God that is revealed in the OT and NT exists then yes that pretty much some things up. Tradition tells us that we only need to be good and then we are ok. The Bible teaches that only God can be good and without Him in you then it is impossible for you to be good. And you can only get Him in you by trusting Him and once He is in you and maintained in you by continue trusting action He will do the perfecting. You might appear good to others but if God is the judge then only what He thinks matters. And all he wants is faith not perfection. Now you might not like a God like that but that is the one that is revealed and He changes not. If you want to be judged by your good works then you will be and you will be found wanting no matter how good you think you are. Even the most ethically moral amongst us knows that they are not perfect and if you want to be judge by your so called good works then those works better be perfect works or you’ve had it. Or you could just trust in God’s promise that if you believe on Jesus and accept Him into your life by merely speaking with you mouth that you are a sinner in need of His grace and ask Him to forgive you your sins and take you as you are then that is another way in getting in and in fact the only way because nobody can make it by the perfection gate.

It's not possible for an atheist to be a good person? So not only are any atheists who do charity or humanitarian work going to hell, but they are also bad people?

Some atheists follow the same core ethical principles of christianity (love your neighbour, do unto others, etc) but even though they treat other people the same way as a christian would, they are necessarily bad people while a christian who acts the same way is a good person?

Run_to_da_hills · 18-02-2008 01:14AM

timetogetfit wrote: »

if they are good people?

No, according to scripture I would presume that all Athiests and agnostics will end up in hell no matter how good they are.

Read Isaiah 64vs6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away".

Also Read Revelation 21vs8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death".

Im sure unbelieving would cover Athiests.

Pompey Magnus · 18-02-2008 01:16AM

timetogetfit wrote: »

So let me get this straight if you dont believe in heaven or HELL but are a charity worker in a third world country and are an all round good person the same fate as sadam hussein,hitler and child abductors awaits you

Ah now that is going a bit far now to be fair. Perhaps Hitler, moments before he died realised the error of his ways and made a genuine appeal to Jesus to forgive him, in that case God will throw the good charity worker and all the Jews who died in the Nazi Concentration Camps down into Hell so they can suffer for all eternity with all the other rejectors of Christ, while Jesus would be throwing the mother of all parties up in Heaven to celebrate finding his lost sheep, Adolf.

Nullandvoid · 18-02-2008 01:34AM

If there is a God and he is forgiving then surely one can be forgiven after death for not believing. Also if someone like Jesus came into the world nowadays how many so called believers would really believe him to be who he claims to be?.. Very few I'd imagine. This I believe shows that everyone is a doubter really and those who can admit this without fear deserve respect. Its easy to say you believe when your faith is never put to the test!

Fanny Cradock · 18-02-2008 01:44AM

orestes wrote: »

It's not possible for an atheist to be a good person? So not only are any atheists who do charity or humanitarian work going to hell, but they are also bad people?

Some atheists follow the same core ethical principles of christianity (love your neighbour, do unto others, etc) but even though they treat other people the same way as a christian would, they are necessarily bad people while a christian who acts the same way is a good person?

As we have had the discussion on morality many times before (try a search if you are interested), I don't think that it was Soul Winner's intention to make a sweeping statement that non-Christians are bad people, whereas Christians are good. You may of course find some Christians hovering around the lunatic fringe who would hold to that belief, but hopefully not too many. After all, the Bible maintains that all have fallen short of the glory of God.

Most Christian's are astute enough to realise that morality - however one chooses to define it - isn't shaped by religious persuasion alone. I would say with certainty that you would find some atheists who are kinder and more compassionate than some Christians and vise versa.

do athiests and agnostics go to heaven

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