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Once saved always saved is a false doctrine..

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  • #152
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    In 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 Paul exhorts the believers at Corinth to remain true to the gospel and he sets forth the possibility that they could, if they were not careful, “receive another spirit” which was presumably a spirit of error and deception (cf. Matthew 24:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 John 3:7).

    In 1 Timothy 4:1, Paul gives a strong admonition to the believers to guard themselves, in view of the fact that “in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons.”

    In Galatians 3:1 Paul accuses the Christians in Galatia of having been “bewitched” by false teachers with their false doctrines. All of these references reveal the possibility of a believer being seriously oppressed and influenced by Satan.

    Paul was writing to the Christian Community.......some of whom were NOT saved.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Satan can influence a Christian and tempt him to sin, the weaker that person is in the lord the more of a field day Satan will have in bringing that Christian down,"Saved" Christians that neglect fellowship, church and prayer leave themselves wide open to the power of Satan to influence them and if they are not careful they will forget that they have been saved at all.
    There is only ONE mediator between God and Man......Jesus Christ.
    There is only ONE who can save us......Jesus Christ.
    There is only ONE Spirit who can teach us ......The Holy Spirit.

    While fellowship and Church are nice to have, they are NOT essential to our salvation......which is personally guaranteed by Jesus Christ.

    There are individual Christians all over the World who are unable to attend Church because of their circumstances.....and they are no less a Christian that the person in the front pew every Sunday.

    ....and somebody who claims to have "forgotten that that they have been savedl".....were never actually saved!!!!

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    It is not a matter of how many sins you have accumilated, it is a matter of who you are serving. A saved Christian who is walks daily with Christ knows that he is serving the lord. THe backslider who has fallen back into sin is no longer serving the lord but is serving Satan.

    As you have said "it is not a matter of how many sins you have accumilated, it is a matter of who you are serving"..........
    ....and a saved Christian ALWAYS serves the Lord and keeps His Commandments.......while still a sinner !!!!

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    When a Christian sins he is giving deamons a wedge to enter that person, this builds up if left unchecked as spoken of in James.

    The saving power of Jesus Christ and the spiritual power of the Holy Spirit means that demonic possession is impossible in a saved Christian!!!
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    There is plenty of Biblical basis, God is Holy and cannot accept any those that are unrighteousness. If he is going to call his people prior to the Great tribulation he is not going to accept those who made a committment but failed to honour it such as those that have fallen back into sin.
    ......then NOBODY will be saved or raptured.......because we are ALL sinners......

    .....but Jesus Christ came to save SINNERS......and He will also rapture saved SINNERS.......and that is the Good News of salvation.......

    .......a bit of a disappointment for the legalists ......who would like retribution upon EVERYONE (other than themselves)....but who fail to understand that THEY will be the ones on the receiving end of God's Justice if THEY fail to repent and ask for God's Mercy!!!

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    There is a contrast between a "sinner" and a backslider. A Christian sinning is someone who would be consious of his sin, he would be convicted and would repent and get right with God as soon as possible. The backslider on the otherhand sins and no longer feels convicted, infact he would often have pleasure in his unrightiousness. A true Christians life is Christ centred, this person cannot pass five minutes of the day without thinking of Christ, every descision a Christian makes must take Christ into consideration. The Backslider will have Christ out of the picture altogether. ie every descision that person makes is self centred.

    The "backslider" as described above doesn't appear to have EVER been saved.

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Those that were once saved and have turned their back on God, These are the ones that I have been referring to right through this thread. There is a difference between a saved Christian having "few falls" and a "saved" Christian who deliberatly rejects the Gospel and lives a self centred lifestyle.

    We are ALL sinners.....and there is NO difference between somebody with a "few falls" or "many falls".....as far as God is concerned!!!

    The ONLY thing that matters is whether the person has believed on Jesus Christ to save him!!!

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    I personally believe those that will be called prior to the tribulation will be those that are "Hot" with Christ, those "luke warm" and cold in Christ will be left behind and be given the ultimate test with the mark of the beast with the rest of humanity, failing this they are danmed.

    The saved believe on Jesus Christ.......and so they are always 'hot' with Him
    .......the unsaved haven't believed on Jesus Christ ......and they are always 'lukewarm' or 'cold' with Him!!!

    ...and the ONLY ‘test’ which a Christian must pass is to repent and believe on Jesus Christ!!

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    I agree but that person must still endure to the end, the initial committment of being saved is only the start of the Christians life, The Spiritual battle is only beginning at this point. The Christian is more aware of Spiritual warfare than the unsaved and Satan will do all in his power to try to bring this person down and will succeed if that person dose not keep his committment with Christ.

    ......Satan may tempt a Christian to sin........and the Christian will suffer the temporal consequences of his sin, if he does..........but Satan cannot 'unsave' a Christian.....and Jesus Christ confirms that "not one of them you gave me have I lost"


  • #153
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    J C wrote: »
    Paul was writing to the Christian Community.......some of whom were NOT saved.
    Paul was writing to the Church, ie the body of saved believers in Christ, to the unsaved these epistles would be meaningless.
    J C wrote: »
    There is only ONE mediator between God and Man......Jesus Christ.
    There is only ONE who can save us......Jesus Christ.
    There is only ONE Spirit who can teach us ......The Holy Spirit..
    I agree, but the Holy Spirit cannot reside in a sinful body, God is slow to anger, and the Holy Spirit will leave. Evidence of this can be seen with some backsliders when they start to curse and swearing. If they had the Holy Spirit they would not do this. The holy Spirit has no interest in someone who turns their back on Christ.
    J C wrote: »
    While fellowship and Church are nice to have, they are NOT essential to our salvation which is personally guaranteed by Jesus Christ.

    There are individual Christians all over the World who are unable to attend Church because of their circumstances and they are no less a Christian that the person in the front pew every Sunday.
    There is a contrast between not bothering to attend a service and not being able to go due to work or other circumstances etc.
    J C wrote: »

    ....and somebody who claims to have "forgotten that that they have been savedl".....were never actually saved!!!!
    As you have said "it is not a matter of how many sins you have accumilated, it is a matter of who you are serving"..........
    ....and a saved Christian ALWAYS serves the Lord and keeps His Commandments.......while still a sinner !!!!The saving power of Jesus Christ and the spiritual power of the Holy Spirit means that demonic possession is impossible in a saved Christian!!!"
    Again Scripture covers this again and again, ie Demons returning.

    J C wrote: »
    The "backslider" as described above doesn't appear to have EVER been saved.
    Backsliding is when a "born-again" or "Saved" believer in Christ turns back to sin or becomes stubborn in his heart and refuses to submit to the will of God in his life. The outward actions are only symptoms of the real problem the attitude of the heart which must be dealt with in order to change the actions.

    If you read yor Bible you will find that God is a forgiving God that will forgive ANY sin (Except for the mark), and any backsliding if that person is willing to submit to God, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance". 2 Peter 3vs9. God forbid any saved Christian that dies in an unrepentant backslidden state.
    J C wrote: »
    We are ALL sinners and there is NO difference between somebody with a "few falls" or "many falls" as far as God is concerned!!! "
    Extremly dangerous statement from you when it reads in romans 2 vs 23 "For the wages of sin is death" ie spiritual danmnation and seperation from God. When a person is "saved" only their past sins are forgiven to that very point of committment and they are reborn in spirit. Their future sins will be judged even more so than than those of the unsaved because they have the knowledge of the truth.
    J C wrote: »
    The ONLY thing that matters is whether the person has believed on Jesus Christ to save him!!!"
    Again another very dangerous statement from you. That person must remain on the straight and narrow and endure to the end to be saved.
    J C wrote: »
    The saved believe on Jesus Christ.......and so they are always 'hot' with Him
    .......the unsaved haven't believed on Jesus Christ ......and they are always 'lukewarm' or 'cold' with Him!!! "
    Backsliders ie once saved Christians are no longer Hot for Christ, they are either cold or luke warm, infact Our lord destested luke warm Christians more than those that are cold, "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth".
    J C wrote: »
    ...and the ONLY ‘test’ which a Christian must pass is to repent and believe on Jesus Christ!! "
    Yet another very dangerous statement from you, Again The saved Christian must endure to the end.

    I believe many of the TV evangelists were saved at one point of time, many have gone off track altogether and some to the point of preaching "another Gospel" and others have got fond of financial gain, I believe many of these will be judged. The Bible spreaks of this. "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"
    Matthew 7vs23


    J C wrote: »
    Satan may tempt a Christian to sin........and the Christian will suffer the temporal consequences of his sin, if he does but Satan cannot 'unsave' a Christian and Jesus Christ confirms that "not one of them you gave me have I lost"
    Temporal consequences? What if this person dies in this state of sin, do I smell purgatory? :confused:

    One of the most conclusive set of scriptures denying and exposing as a terrible heresy the "once saved, always saved" doctrine is Hebrews 10:26-31. The writer of Hebrews is making a comparison here to offenses committed under the Mosaic law, not to the legalities, but the punishment. People who rejected Moses' law died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. The 29th verse is clearly saying that a blood-washed Christian who abuses God's grace will receive the worse punishment.

    Heb 10:26-31 NKJV) "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, {27} but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. {28} Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. {29} Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? {30} For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people." {31} It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."


  • #154
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Paul was writing to the Church, ie the body of saved believers in Christ, to the unsaved these epistles would be meaningless.

    The Word of God is addressed to ALL......both the saved and the unsaved.

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    I agree, but the Holy Spirit cannot reside in a sinful body, God is slow to anger, and the Holy Spirit will leave. Evidence of this can be seen with some backsliders when they start to curse and swearing. If they had the Holy Spirit they would not do this. The holy Spirit has no interest in someone who turns their back on Christ.
    We are ALL sinners and anybody who claims to be otherwise is a liar.....so the Holy Spirit CAN reside in a sinful body.......provided the person has been saved......and indeed ALL saved Christians are sinners in sinful bodies......yet indwelt by the Holy Spirit!!!

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    There is a contrast between not bothering to attend a service and not being able to go due to work or other circumstances etc. Again Scripture covers this again and again, ie Demons returning.
    Christians will obviously enjoy fellowship with fellow Christians.......BUT their ultimate fellowship is with Jesus Christ

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Backsliding is when a "born-again" or "Saved" believer in Christ turns back to sin or becomes stubborn in his heart and refuses to submit to the will of God in his life. The outward actions are only symptoms of the real problem the attitude of the heart which must be dealt with in order to change the actions.

    If you read yor Bible you will find that God is a forgiving God that will forgive ANY sin (Except for the mark), and any backsliding if that person is willing to submit to God, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance". 2 Peter 3vs9. God forbid any saved Christian that dies in an unrepentant backslidden state.

    I agree with you that the 'unrepentant backslidden state' as described above, is probably an unsaved state.......and therefore indicative that the person has NEVER been saved

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Extremly dangerous statement from you when it reads in romans 2 vs 23 "For the wages of sin is death" ie spiritual danmnation and seperation from God. When a person is "saved" only their past sins are forgiven to that very point of committment and they are reborn in spirit. Their future sins will be judged even more so than than those of the unsaved because they have the knowledge of the truth. Again another very dangerous statement from you. That person must remain on the straight and narrow and endure to the end to be saved. Backsliders ie once saved Christians are no longer Hot for Christ, they are either cold or luke warm, infact Our lord destested luke warm Christians more than those that are cold, "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth".
    You seem to accept that Jesus Christ IS willing and able to save sinners........before they are saved........so why do you have such a doubt about Him continuing to save sinners ....after they are saved???

    ......a persons salvation is a matter between that person and Jesus Christ.....and ONLY Jesus and the person themselves knows whether they are saved....or not.

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Yet another very dangerous statement from you, Again The saved Christian must endure to the end.

    I believe many of the TV evangelists were saved at one point of time, many have gone off track altogether and some to the point of preaching "another Gospel" and others have got fond of financial gain, I believe many of these will be judged. The Bible spreaks of this. "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"
    Matthew 7vs23
    Please note that Jesus confirms that He never knew the people to whom He referred......and therefore these people were never saved!!

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Temporal consequences? What if this person dies in this state of sin, do I smell purgatory? :confused:

    Everybody dies in a state of sin.......THAT is WHY we die.....so HOW can ANYBODY then be saved??

    The Roman Catholic Church has answered this question with the concept of purging so-called 'minor' sins in Purgatory.......with Hell for the 'major' sinners.

    Saved Christians believe that ALL of their sins are covered by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

    You don't appear to believe in either Purgatory or the satisfactory atonement of Jesus Christ for ALL of the sins of the saved.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    One of the most conclusive set of scriptures denying and exposing as a terrible heresy the "once saved, always saved" doctrine is Hebrews 10:26-31. The writer of Hebrews is making a comparison here to offenses committed under the Mosaic law, not to the legalities, but the punishment. People who rejected Moses' law died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. The 29th verse is clearly saying that a blood-washed Christian who abuses God's grace will receive the worse punishment.

    Heb 10:26-31 NKJV) "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, {27} but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. {28} Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. {29} Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? {30} For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people." {31} It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
    The Letter to the Hebrews is addressed to unsaved and Messianic Jews.
    Paul is pointing out to the Jews that since Jesus is Messiah and He has already come.....there remains no further Jewish Temple sacrifice for sin......and this remains true right up to today.

    It is indeed a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God...IF you are unsaved......
    .........but it is bliss for the saved in Jesus Christ to fall into His merciful hands!!!

    Everybody must choose between being judged under God's Law.....or being saved under His mercy.

    As a sinner, I have opted for God's mercy......the amnesty to beat all amnesties......so to speak!!!

    BTW where are all of the other Christians on this forum.......and why are they so silent on this, the most fundamental issue of salvation????


  • #155
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    J C wrote: »
    The Word of God is addressed to ALL......both the saved and the unsaved. [/COLOR][/B]
    Or should I have rephrased that statement, not all would understand the Gospel, ie the "unsaved" we read in 1 Corinthians, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1vs 18)
    J C wrote: »
    We are ALL sinners and anybody who claims to be otherwise is a liar.....so the Holy Spirit CAN reside in a sinful body.......provided the person has been saved......and indeed ALL saved Christians are sinners in sinful bodies......yet indwelt by the Holy Spirit!!!
    As I keep on repeating myself again and again, I am not referring to christians who occasionally sin, I am referring to those who have been saved at one point and have since rejected Gods commandment.
    J C wrote: »
    You seem to accept that Jesus Christ IS willing and able to save sinners........before they are saved........so why do you have such a doubt about Him continuing to save sinners ....after they are saved?
    Why should Christ continue to save those that have been "saved" that have turned their backs on him i.e. trampled over the cross and put him to shame?
    J C wrote: »


    Please note that Jesus confirms that He never knew the people to whom He referred......and therefore these people were never saved!!
    You have ommitted the most important part of this verse.."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (More so for those that were consious of their iniquities.)
    J C wrote: »
    Everybody dies in a state of sin.......THAT is WHY we die.....so HOW can ANYBODY then be saved??
    Those that have fellowship with Christ, ie those that are "saved" and continue in Gods plan have no fear of death, those that were "saved" at one point and that have rejected Gods plan face the wrath of God.
    J C wrote: »

    The Roman Catholic Church has answered this question with the concept of purging so-called 'minor' sins in Purgatory.......with Hell for the 'major' sinners.

    Saved Christians believe that ALL of their sins are covered by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
    My own words to describe a "Mortal sin" would be a sin worthy of eternal danmnation, such would be total Christ rejection i.e. not accepting Christ as their saviour. (Unsaved) or failing to follow Gods plan of salvation or obey the Gospel (Saved). Again 2 Thessalonians describes well what a "Mortal sin" is. "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2 Thessalonians 1 vs8
    J C wrote: »

    BTW where are all of the other Christians on this forum.......and why are they so silent on this, the most fundamental issue of salvation????
    I would also like to hear a Christian response from others on this very important topic.


    If I cannot lose salvation:
    1) Why should I ask forgiveness?
    2) Why should I repent?
    3) Why should I do any works for the kingdom of God?


    For if you cannot lose salvation, then none of the above even applies. Why would God tell us to do something but then turn around and make it sound like none of it has to be done? It's like saying: You can drive the car all you want, but never put fuel in it. Why? Because it's not needed. So why fear God enough to do what He has told us if we are not even going to be judged, or punished for not doing it. Does God speak worthless words? Is God's book a worthless book? If osas is believed, then 90% of God's word would have to be omitted to make it work. Because all punishment for sin has to be omitted.


  • #156
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Run_to_da_hills said:
    I would also like to hear a Christian response from others on this very important topic.


    If I cannot lose salvation:
    1) Why should I ask forgiveness?
    2) Why should I repent?
    3) Why should I do any works for the kingdom of God?


    For if you cannot lose salvation, then none of the above even applies. Why would God tell us to do something but then turn around and make it sound like none of it has to be done? It's like saying: You can drive the car all you want, but never put fuel in it. Why? Because it's not needed. So why fear God enough to do what He has told us if we are not even going to be judged, or punished for not doing it. Does God speak worthless words? Is God's book a worthless book? If osas is believed, then 90% of God's word would have to be omitted to make it work. Because all punishment for sin has to be omitted.
    1. If we don't love God we are not Christians. Christians love God. We should do these things because we love God.

    John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

    2. God loves us, so He we not ignore our sinning but will discipline us as any good father would. Christians who sin are disciplined by their Heavenly Father. We should do these things because we will suffer in this life if we don't.

    1 Corinthians 11:30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

    Hebrews 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

    “ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
    Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
    6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
    And scourges every son whom He receives.”

    7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.


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  • #157
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Not sure.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    I would also like to hear a Christian response from others on this very important topic.

    If I cannot lose salvation:
    1) Why should I ask forgiveness?
    2) Why should I repent?
    3) Why should I do any works for the kingdom of God?
    Good questions!

    Matthew 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

    Clearly salvation can be lost! God doesn't force salvation upon anyone. We have the free will to reject eternal life.


  • #158
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Or should I have rephrased that statement, not all would understand the Gospel, ie the "unsaved" we read in 1 Corinthians, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1vs 18)

    Fair enough.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    As I keep on repeating myself again and again, I am not referring to christians who occasionally sin, I am referring to those who have been saved at one point and have since rejected Gods commandment.

    .....and WHAT is the difference in God's eyes between a person who 'occasionally sins' and somebody who has 'rejected God's Commandment'???:confused:

    ....answer....NO difference......they are BOTH sinners and deserving of eternal perdition......

    .....if they are saved they will be saved from their deserved fate......and if they are not saved they will endure perdition!!

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Why should Christ continue to save those that have been "saved" that have turned their backs on him i.e. trampled over the cross and put him to shame?

    Why does Jesus save sinners at all???:confused:
    ......answer.....He is extending His unmerited mercy to ALL sinners who ask to be saved.

    This verse of scripture was addressed to the unsaved who rejected salvation which was paid for them on the cross....and their rejection is described in this verse as trampling over the sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross.

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    You have ommitted the most important part of this verse.."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (More so for those that were consious of their iniquities.)

    Saved Christians DON'T work iniquity......which requires demonic possession.

    The verse makes it clear that Jesus NEVER knew these people.....and so they NEVER were saved!!!
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Those that have fellowship with Christ, ie those that are "saved" and continue in Gods plan have no fear of death, those that were "saved" at one point and that have rejected Gods plan face the wrath of God.
    That might indeed apply to somebody who was "saved" (in inverted commas)......
    but all Saved Christians have the assurance of God for their salvation in Jesus Christ.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    My own words to describe a "Mortal sin" would be a sin worthy of eternal danmnation, such would be total Christ rejection i.e. not accepting Christ as their saviour. (Unsaved) or failing to follow Gods plan of salvation or obey the Gospel (Saved). Again 2 Thessalonians describes well what a "Mortal sin" is. "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2 Thessalonians 1 vs8

    All sin is an EQUAL affront to a perfectly Holy God.......so He makes no distinction between 'degrees of sin'.

    .....and the ONLY way that ANY sinner can be saved is through Jesus Christ and Him crucified!!!
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    If I cannot lose salvation:
    1) Why should I ask forgiveness?
    2) Why should I repent?
    3) Why should I do any works for the kingdom of God?

    If you are saved you should do these things out of LOVE (and not fear) of God......and out of love for your (unsaved) fellow man.

    There are also (significant) temporal considerations to be taken account of IF you decide to embark/continue with an openly sinful life.

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    For if you cannot lose salvation, then none of the above even applies. Why would God tell us to do something but then turn around and make it sound like none of it has to be done? It's like saying: You can drive the car all you want, but never put fuel in it. Why? Because it's not needed. So why fear God enough to do what He has told us if we are not even going to be judged, or punished for not doing it. Does God speak worthless words? Is God's book a worthless book? If osas is believed, then 90% of God's word would have to be omitted to make it work. Because all punishment for sin has to be omitted.

    The good news of salvation IS that the proper punishment for sin HAS indeed been omitted.....for saved Christians!!!!:)

    ......and saved Christians don't fear God......they love and respect Him ......and He loves them!!!

    God doesn't speak worthless words.....and the punishment of God will be just as certainly visited upon the unsaved as His grace will be applied to the saved.


  • #159
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Matthew 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

    Clearly salvation can be lost! God doesn't force salvation upon anyone. We have the free will to reject eternal life.

    God doen't force salvation upon us.....we must freely believe on Jesus Christ to be saved.

    .....and perseverance is a symptom.....and not a cause of salvation.


  • #160
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    J C wrote: »
    and WHAT is the difference in God's eyes between a person who 'occasionally sins' and somebody who has 'rejected God's Commandment'???:confused:.
    The one who "occasionally sins" i in constant fellowship with God, and is convicted of his wrongdoings and confesses his sins regularly. The one who rejects Gods commandment is no longer in fellowship with God, he has hardned his heart and no longer feels remorse for his sins, infact he now has pleasure in unrightiousness, this is the person who is cut off from the vine.
    J C wrote: »
    Why does Jesus save sinners at all???:confused:
    ......answer.....He is extending His unmerited mercy to ALL sinners who ask to be saved..
    We read in Matthew 22vs 14 that "many are called but few are chosen".
    J C wrote: »
    This verse of scripture was addressed to the unsaved who rejected salvation which was paid for them on the cross....and their rejection is described in this verse as trampling over the sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross.
    Absolutly untrue, the unsaved haven't a clue about the "message of the cross", you should know this as a Christian. Again I Quote from Corinthians "For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God" 1 Corinthians 1vs 18. The Saved have experienced Gods forgiveness through his sacrafice of Christ on the cross, if they backslide they trample over the cross.
    J C wrote: »
    Saved Christians DON'T work iniquity......which requires demonic possession. The verse makes it clear that Jesus NEVER knew these people.....and so they NEVER were saved!!!
    Human nature is human nature, we are given a free will, many saved Christians have fallen by the wayside and have chosen to build their foundations on sand or have had their seeds sewn on rocky soil hence satan has gained a foothold.
    J C wrote: »
    That might indeed apply to somebody who was "saved" (in inverted commas)......
    but all Saved Christians have the assurance of God for their salvation in Jesus Christ. :.
    Only provided he endures to the end.
    J C wrote: »


    All sin is an EQUAL affront to a perfectly Holy God.......so He makes no distinction between 'degrees of sin'.

    .....and the ONLY way that ANY sinner can be saved is through Jesus Christ and Him crucified!!!
    I agree but there is a contrast between sin and christ rejection.
    J C wrote: »
    There are also (significant) temporal considerations to be taken account of IF you decide to embark/continue with an openly sinful life.:.
    If you are saved and decide to embark/contue with an openly sinful life you are on the wide road to destruction no doubt about it and its consequences are clear, ie eternal damnation and separation from God.
    J C wrote: »
    The good news of salvation IS that the proper punishment for sin HAS indeed been omitted.....for saved Christians!!!!:) ......and saved Christians don't fear God......they love and respect Him ......and He loves them!!!

    God doesn't speak worthless words.....and the punishment of God will be just as certainly visited upon the unsaved as His grace will be applied to the saved.
    I agree but disagree that any of Gods grace will be applied to those that were once saved and that have since turned their back on the commandment infact they will recieve greater judgement and condemnation.


  • #161
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    The one who "occasionally sins" i in constant fellowship with God, and is convicted of his wrongdoings and confesses his sins regularly. The one who rejects Gods commandment is no longer in fellowship with God, he has hardned his heart and no longer feels remorse for his sins, infact he now has pleasure in unrightiousness, this is the person who is cut off from the vine.
    .....because he was never saved, in the first place!!!

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    We read in Matthew 22vs 14 that "many are called but few are chosen".
    ..many sinners are called to repentance and salvation......but few believe on Jesus Christ and are chosen/saved!!!

    Originally Posted by J C
    This verse of scripture was addressed to the unsaved who rejected salvation which was paid for them on the cross....and their rejection is described in this verse as trampling over the sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Absolutly untrue, the unsaved haven't a clue about the "message of the cross", you should know this as a Christian. Again I Quote from Corinthians "For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God" 1 Corinthians 1vs 18.
    The actions of the unsaved rejecting salvation is described by Paul ....and NOT by themselves....as trampling over the sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross!!

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    The Saved have experienced Gods forgiveness through his sacrafice of Christ on the cross, if they backslide they trample over the cross.
    Salvation is ETERNAL.....and there is no risk of a Saved Christian renouncing his/her salvation either before of after death!!!
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Human nature is human nature, we are given a free will, many saved Christians have fallen by the wayside and have chosen to build their foundations on sand or have had their seeds sewn on rocky soil hence satan has gained a foothold.

    Jesus Christ is the ROCK of our salvation......anybody 'building on sand' isn't saved.

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Only provided he endures to the end.
    The Saved Christian's salvation is eternal......so s/he WILL endure to the end....and beyond into the next life!!!

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    I agree but there is a contrast between sin and christ rejection.
    I agree as well......
    ....both the saved and the unsaved sin.......
    .....and those who reject Jesus Christ remain unsaved!!!

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    If you are saved and decide to embark/contue with an openly sinful life you are on the wide road to destruction no doubt about it and its consequences are clear, ie eternal damnation and separation from God.
    .....an openly sinful life may kill you.....or get you excommunicated......but it won't 'unsave' you!!!
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    I agree but disagree that any of Gods grace will be applied to those that were once saved and that have since turned their back on the commandment infact they will recieve greater judgement and condemnation.
    ....such legalism would be approaching Pharisaical dimensions!!!:)
    .....don't be so hard on yourself .....and God!!!

    .....get saved.......repent of your sins......TRY to reduce your sinning and TRY to follow His example and His Commandments....and leave the rest to God!!

    .....don't worry......be happy......every little thing will be alright......when you are with Jesus Christ.....who is far better!!:D


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  • #162
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    J C wrote: »
    .....because he was never saved, in the first place!!!
    Not so according to
    ..many sinners are called to repentance and salvation......but few believe on Jesus Christ and are chosen/saved!!!
    Again according the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:18-23) many have recieved the word ie "saved" in your contecxt and have failed because they have no foundation. An example of someone being "saved" in your context would be someone given a brand new track machine and according to your theology they will be rewarded whether they put it to use or not.

    In reality they have a choice they can either park it up in their back yard and keep it shiney the duration of its life or they can put it to use and profit from it. In order to use it they must put fuel (Their own imput) into it, if they dont it will go nowhere. Likewise as with salvation. One can be initially "saved" and sit on their backside for the rest of their lives without sharing the Gospel.

    "For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". Matthew 25 vs 29
    J C wrote: »
    This verse of scripture was addressed to the unsaved who rejected salvation which was paid for them on the cross....and their rejection is described in this verse as trampling over the sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross.[/I][/B


    The actions of the unsaved rejecting salvation is described by Paul ....and NOT by themselves....as trampling over the sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross!!]
    Again the unsaved DO NOT understand the "message of the cross".
    J C wrote: »
    Salvation is ETERNAL.....and there is no risk of a Saved Christian renouncing his/her salvation either before of after death!!!
    Jesus Christ is the ROCK of our salvation......anybody 'building on sand' isn't saved.
    I agree Jesus is the "Rock" of our salvation, and the "Rock" of the true church. However when a person is initially saved they must build their own foundation. back to the parable of the sewer. Those saved without proper foundation ie the path or rock are in great danger of losing their salvation.

    This is why it is of utmost importance to lead new converts on the right track and give them "spiritual milk" and have them properly grounded in the word of God. Many TV evangelists and crucaides often responsible for sending new converts into the world without any spiritual backup.
    J C wrote: »
    The Saved Christian's salvation is eternal......so s/he WILL endure to the end....and beyond into the next life!!!
    The "Saved" Christian's salvation is eternal damnation if he dose not do the will of God.
    "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it" Matthew 16vs25
    J C wrote: »
    I agree as well......
    ....both the saved and the unsaved sin.......
    .....and those who reject Jesus Christ remain unsaved!!!
    .....an openly sinful life may kill you.....or get you excommunicated......but it won't 'unsave' you!!!
    A once "saved" person leading an openly sinful life is a typical symptom of a Backslider who no longer has a conscience and no longer cares for Christ, ie the Christ rejector, the very ones that have "trampled over the cross" I am referring to throughout this whole thread. These are the guys that will be worse off than the unsaved if they don't repent and come back to their senses. :D


  • #163
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Not sure.
    Folks, I find this whole OSAS argument silly and entirely without foundation.

    e.g. Someone reads Acts 16:31 and says, great, all I have to do is believe and I'm saved. Whoopee! Meanwhile this person is conveniently ignoring (at their peril) verses such as the following:
    Matthew 19:17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Luke 13:3 No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

    Matthew 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

    It's dangerous to take one verse and ignore other which complement and complete it.

    God bless,
    Noel.


  • #164
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Folks, I find this whole OSAS argument silly and entirely without foundation.

    e.g. Someone reads Acts 16:31 and says, great, all I have to do is believe and I'm saved. Whoopee! Meanwhile this person is conveniently ignoring (at their peril) verses such as the following:



    It's dangerous to take one verse and ignore other which complement and complete it.

    God bless,
    Noel.
    Re Luke 13:3. Any Scholars out there that can translate from the Greek? Penance or Repent?? Two words with two different meanings.

    "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3 KJV)
    "No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3 Douhay Rheims)

    Repent.
    1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
    2 a: to feel regret or contrition b: to change one's mind
    transitive verb
    1: to cause to feel regret or contrition
    2: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
    — re·pent·er noun

    Penance
    1. Repentance.
    2. Pain; sorrow; suffering. "Joy or penance he feeleth none."
    3. A means of repairing a sin committed, and obtaining pardon for it, consisting partly in the performance of expiatory rites, partly in voluntary submission to a punishment corresponding to the transgression. Penance is the fourth of seven sacraments in the Roman Catholic Church. "And bitter penance, with an iron whip." (Spenser) "Quoth he, "The man hath penance done, And penance more will do."" (Coleridge)

    Back to this discussion on OSAS, it is anything but silly, countless millions of souls are damned to hell because of this false docterine.


  • #165
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Not sure.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Back to this discussion on OSAS, it is anything but silly, countless millions of souls are damned to hell because of this false docterine.
    I mean the argument *for* OSAS is silly. I agree with you that salvation isn't guaranteed. But it's not for you or me to judge who's going to Hell but I would say it's a dangerous doctrine.


  • #166
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    I mean the argument *for* OSAS is silly. I agree with you that salvation isn't guaranteed. But it's not for you or me to judge who's going to Hell but I would say it's a dangerous doctrine.
    I do believe salvation is absolutly guaranteed provided that you.
    (A) You are "saved" ie "Born again" in spirit after accepting Christ through faith as your personal saviour.
    (B) You abide in Christ and his teachings and endure to the very end. (ie remain a part of that vine as spoken of in John 15:5)


  • #167
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Again according the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:18-23) many have recieved the word ie "saved" in your contecxt and have failed because they have no foundation. An example of someone being "saved" in your context would be someone given a brand new track machine and according to your theology they will be rewarded whether they put it to use or not.

    "Receiving the Word" is NOT the same as making a personal commitment to Jesus Christ.....and being saved.

    Someone who is saved is analagous to somebody who DOESN'T need a track machine because they are now supernaturally thin and fit!!!
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    In reality they have a choice they can either park it up in their back yard and keep it shiney the duration of its life or they can put it to use and profit from it. In order to use it they must put fuel (Their own imput) into it, if they dont it will go nowhere. Likewise as with salvation. One can be initially "saved" and sit on their backside for the rest of their lives without sharing the Gospel.
    They COULD 'sit on their backside'........but they DON'T .......because they love God so much that they want to bring the joy of salvation to others......

    ........salvation is like discovering a fabulous new holiday resort .......and telling all your friends about to.......not because you HAVE to......but because you WANT to tell them!!!:D

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    "For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". Matthew 25 vs 29

    OK.....so everyone "that hath" (salvation) shall be given more of everything.....and everyone "that hath not" (salvation) shall have everything taken away from them......which will certainly happen when they die......and may even happen before they die.....through the fruits of sinful living, for example!!!

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    "I agree Jesus is the "Rock" of our salvation, and the "Rock" of the true church. However when a person is initially saved they must build their own foundation. back to the parable of the sewer. Those saved without proper foundation ie the path or rock are in great danger of losing their salvation.

    We CANNOT save ourselves......and we CANNOT build our own foundation....only Jesus can save us and provide us with a foundation for our faith. that WILL last forever.
    IF you don't have a proper foundation (by faith in the ROCK that is Jesus) ......you aren't saved!!

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    This is why it is of utmost importance to lead new converts on the right track and give them "spiritual milk" and have them properly grounded in the word of God. Many TV evangelists and crucaides often responsible for sending new converts into the world without any spiritual backup.
    The Holy Spirit and the Word of God is sufficient 'spiritual backup' for ALL Saved Christians!!!

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    The "Saved" Christian's salvation is eternal damnation if he dose not do the will of God.
    The will of God is that sinners might be saved.....the Saved Christian has ALREADY done the will of God .....by being saved.....and s/he will CONTINUE to do the will of God (to the limits of their Human condition) out of gratitude and love for the God that has saved them!!!
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it" Matthew 16vs25

    .....every Saved Christian has 'died to the World' .....and 'lost' his worldly spiritual life ....when he is saved........and the unsaved remain dead in their sins.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    A once "saved" person leading an openly sinful life is a typical symptom of a Backslider who no longer has a conscience and no longer cares for Christ, ie the Christ rejector, the very ones that have "trampled over the cross" I am referring to throughout this whole thread. These are the guys that will be worse off than the unsaved if they don't repent and come back to their senses. :D

    .....HOW can anybody be 'worse off' than the unsaved.....who BY DEFINITION are headed for Hell......because they are unsaved from eternal perdition????

    .....Salvation is from ETERNAL perdition........and thus salvation, by definition, is itself ETERNAL...

    ....and HOW can somebody who humbly accepts Jesus Christ's perfect atonement for their sins on the cross be possibly accused of trampling over the very cross that saved them??

    ......somebody rejecting salvation is rejecting Jesus Christ's perfect atonement for their sins on the cross .....and therefore "trampling over the cross" ....and the blood that was shed upon it......for the remission of THEIR sins!!


  • #168
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Folks, I find this whole OSAS argument silly and entirely without foundation.

    e.g. Someone reads Acts 16:31 and says, great, all I have to do is believe and I'm saved. Whoopee! Meanwhile this person is conveniently ignoring (at their peril) verses such as the following:

    Matthew 19:17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Luke 13:3 No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

    Matthew 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved

    It's dangerous to take one verse and ignore other which complement and complete it.

    God bless,
    Noel.

    Mt 19:17 confirms that there is NOBODY who is good ......other than God.....so we are ALL sinners......some who are saved and some who aren't.

    Lk 13:3 refers to the need to repent and be saved .....while STILL a sinner!!!

    Mt 24:13 confirms that perseverence is a symptom .....and the cause of salvation.

    Please note that I am NOT advocating that people should lead sinful lives.....far from it..... I am advocating that they turn away from sin.....and obey the Commandments......whether they are saved or not!!!!

    I am ALSO warning them that they are ALL sinners in need of God's salvation.....and they must be saved by believing on Jesus Christ!!!

    TWO things......avoid sin ......and get saved!!:D:)

    .....and don't play into Satan's hands by refusing salvation because you are a sinner!!


  • #169
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    I do believe salvation is absolutly guaranteed provided that you.
    (A) You are "saved" ie "Born again" in spirit after accepting Christ through faith as your personal saviour.
    (B) You abide in Christ and his teachings and endure to the very end. (ie remain a part of that vine as spoken of in John 15:5)

    So you believe that salvation is ONLY GUARANTEED by believing on Jesus Christ AND living a perfectly virtuous life and/or repenting every second of every day thereafter!!!

    This reminds me of the rich young man who approached Jesus and began listing his virtues....and the fact that he obeyed all of the commandments perfectly.....thereby MERITING salvation.

    Jesus then showed the young man that he wasn't as virtuous as he thought himself to be.....by asking him to give all he possed to the poor!!!

    ........and the young man went away unsaved......because he wasn't humble enough to accept that he was a filthy rotten sinner deserving of Hell.....and in need of UNMERITED salvation.....just like me ......and you....and the rest of Humanity!!!


  • #170
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    J C wrote: »
    "Receiving the Word" is NOT the same as making a personal commitment to Jesus Christ.....and being saved..
    The parable of the sower covers nearly the entire scope of the Bible and all people. It portrays people rejecting God’s Word, to those that receive God’s Word but then fall away, to those that receive God’s Word and bring forth fruit. Many have given their lives to the lord and got "saved" but the cares of the world have caught up on them. http://parentalguide.com/Documents/Spiritual_Warfare/parable_of_the_sower.htm#2-THE%20PARABLE%20OF%20THE%20SOWER
    J C wrote: »
    "
    They COULD 'sit on their backside'........but they DON'T .
    because they love God so much that they want to bring the joy of salvation to others..
    How do you know they dont?
    J C wrote: »
    Slvation is like discovering a fabulous new holiday resort .......and telling all your friends about to.......not because you HAVE to......but because you WANT to tell them!!!:D.
    I agree but many of those that were saved have soon forgotten about this fabulous holiday resort, the cares of this world have caught up on them. I would say a large majority of "saved" christians sit on their backsides and keep their mouth shut about their salvation. how many "saved" christians do you see handing out Gospel tracts or street preaching in the city? not many, (probably could count the number on my hands) most of these are would be foreign nationals or those that come down from the north. It is God commandment for every Christian to spread the word and every Christian will be judged on what they do. According to Matthew 25 vs 30 those that "sat on their backside" in this life will be cast into outer darkness as unprofitable servants.
    J C wrote: »
    "
    OK.....so everyone who hath (salvation) shall be given more of everything.....and everyone that hath no (salvation) shall have everything taken away from him......which will certainly happen when he dies......and may even happen before he dies through the fruits of sinful living, for example!!!.
    Those that got saved and were fruitful will be given more, those that were saved and "sat on their backsides" will have what was given to them taken away. (The unsaved had nothing given to them in the first place so how could anything be taken from them :confused:)
    J C wrote: »
    We CANNOT save ourselves......and we CANNOT build our own foundation....only Jesus can save us and provide us with a firm foundation for our faith.
    IF you don't have a proper foundation (by faith in the ROCK that is Jesus) ......you aren't saved!
    Again Jesus is the "ROCK" of the Christian church. when someone becomes a new convert it is of upmost importance that they build their own faith on a solid foundation, many new converts have fallen back into the world because their initial foundation was weak, ie built on sand. This is explained in Matthew 7vs24
    J C wrote: »
    The Holy Spirit is sufficient 'spiritual backup' for ALL Saved Christians!!!
    Provided that they remain in Christ.
    J C wrote: »
    ..every Saved Christian has 'died to the World' .....and 'lost' his worldly spiritual life ....when he is saved........and the unsaved remain dead in their sins.
    In "theory" yes but in practice many "saved" Christians have been snared by the Devil and have fallen back into the world and have given up their faith.
    J C wrote: »
    .....HOW can somebody be 'worse off' than the unsaved.....who BY DEFINITION are headed for Hell......because they are unsaved from eternal perdition????
    Those that were saved and that "fell back into the world" will be worse off than those that never had a knowledge of God.
    J C wrote: »
    .Salvation is from ETERNAL perdition........and thus salvation is ETERNAL.....and HOW can somebody who humbly accepts Jesus Christ's perfect atonement for their sins on the cross be possibly accused of trampling over the very cross that saved them, in the first place??
    It is hard to believe this can happen but it dose happen and the Bible explains it well when someone backslides and returns to their old vomit.


  • #171
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    J C wrote: »
    So you believe that salvation is ONLY GUARANTEED by believing on Jesus Christ AND living a perfectly virtuous life and/or repenting every second of every day thereafter!!!

    This reminds me of the rich young man who approached Jesus and began listing his virtues....and the fact that he obeyed all of the commandments perfectly.....thereby MERITING salvation.

    Jesus then showed the young man that he wasn't as virtuous as he thought himself to be.....by asking him to give all he possed to the poor!!!

    ........and the young man went away unsaved......because he wasn't humble enough to accept that he was a filthy rotten sinner deserving of Hell.....and in need of UNMERITED salvation.....just like me ......and you....and the rest of Humanity!!!
    I believe that salvation is only guaranteed provided you are born again in spirit and that you submit the rest of your life for Christ. Its as simple as that. :)


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  • #172
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    I believe that salvation is only guaranteed provided you are born again in spirit and that you submit the rest of your life for Christ. Its as simple as that. :)

    On this we can certainly agree.

    Our disagreement primarily centres on what happens when we sin after we are saved.

    BTW could I point out that the risk of licence to sin is NOT just confined to the OSAS position.......somebody could calculatingly live a life of debauchery and open sin......and decide to be saved or confess his sin on his deathbed.

    ......indeed, IF as you maintain, his sin will be judged less harshly because he wasn't saved before/during his debauchery.....this would be the wisest way to live your life.......
    .....something like make me pure/save me......but not just yet.....could become 'all the rage'......IF your position is correct!!!!!:D


  • #173
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    J C wrote: »
    On this we can certainly agree.

    The only thing we actually disagree on is what happens after we are saved and we sin.
    When we are saved and we sin, no probs, just confess your sin. The problem starts when you dont confess it and it builds up, you then refuse to submit yourself to God. If you refuse to submit to God there is only one other person you are submitting to and that is Satan! :eek:

    We read in James 4vs7 "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you".
    J C wrote: »

    Could I also point out that potential licence to sin is NOT confined to the OSAS position.......somebody could calculatingly live a life of debauchery and open sin......and decide to be saved or confess his sin on his deathbed.
    .
    Very dangerous thing to do, so many saved and unsaved use Satans prime trump card of "putting it off" ie "Ill wait till my death bed and ill make it right with God", then that person has a heart attack or get killed in a crash and ends up dead in his sin. A saved person must consider Christ in every single deed and action if he dose not he has a serious problem with his faith and would want to make it right with God immediatly. When I first got saved I could not go 5 minutes of the day without thinking of Christ, When I backslid for over 10 years Christ was completly out of my mind.


  • #174
    CommandoJack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23 ✭CommandoJack


    risking seeming troll-ish... since when was it a doctrine? =/


  • #175
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Originally Posted by J C
    On this we can certainly agree.

    The only thing we actually disagree on is what happens after we are saved and we sin.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    When we are saved and we sin, no probs, just confess your sin. The problem starts when you dont confess it and it builds up, you then refuse to submit yourself to God. If you refuse to submit to God there is only one other person you are submitting to and that is Satan! :eek:

    We read in James 4vs7 "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you".

    The saved DO submit to God.....and they try to avoid sin.......
    ......but they also sin....and anybody (saved or unsaved) who says that he isn't a sinner is a liar.

    Eternal salvation is a separate issue.....and surprise, surprise......it is determined by whether you are saved or not.:D


    Originally Posted by J C
    Could I also point out that potential licence to sin is NOT confined to the OSAS position.......somebody could calculatingly live a life of debauchery and open sin......and decide to be saved or confess his sin on his deathbed.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Very dangerous thing to do, so many saved and unsaved use Satans prime trump card of "putting it off" ie "Ill wait till my death bed and ill make it right with God", then that person has a heart attack or get killed in a crash and ends up dead in his sin. A saved person must consider Christ in every single deed and action if he dose not he has a serious problem with his faith and would want to make it right with God immediatly. When I first got saved I could not go 5 minutes of the day without thinking of Christ, When I backslid for over 10 years Christ was completly out of my mind.

    I agree that it is very dangerous to put off being saved......you might not get the chance if you died suddenly, for example.

    However, IF somebody's sins after salvation ARE going to be judged more harshly than those of the unsaved, (as you claim)......then most people will not risk becoming saved ....until they are on the point of death.

    Of course, with OSAS there is no such impediment.....Jesus will save you .....and ALL your sins will be forgiven via His perfect atonement.

    It is advisable to avoid sin.....and to continuously repent of any sins that you commit.......
    .....but, either way, once you are saved.....you are saved!!!:D

    .....and that is why Jesus confidently told us to 'come ye who are heavily burdened and I will give you rest'....
    .....could I point out that you would have little rest if ALL your sins weren't forgiven.....or if you had to continuously worry over whether you had properly repented of EVERY sin that you had committed.

    I have met older people, in particular, who were literally scared out of their wits, at the possibility of dying in sin.....because they knew that they had forgotten most of their sins.....and therefore hadn't repented of ALL their sins individually!!!

    .....and the only known antidote to such needless misery is to be saved once....and forever!!!:D

    .....and that is also why we refer to the 'good news' of salvation......there wouldn't be much 'good' about a conditional salvation that was effectively impossible for us to achieve in our present sinful state.......and which would keep the nominally "saved" in a permanent state of high anxiety over their eventual fate!!:D
    .....in a lot of ways they would be worse off than the unsaved !!!!


  • #176
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    J C wrote: »
    The only thing we actually disagree on is what happens after we are saved and we sin. [/I][/B]
    The saved DO submit to God.....and they try to avoid sin.......
    ......but they also sin....and anybody (saved or unsaved) who says that he isn't a sinner is a liar.!!!!
    Ill sumerise my point, Its not a question of how many sins are accumilated to become "unsaved" its in the heart, when a person is "saved" they become a "desciple" or "Priest" for Christ, (Noel may have an issue with this one :) ) they are given a task for the rest of their lives to serve Christ and preach the Gospel. If they fail on this one they become whats known as "unprofitible servents".
    J C wrote: »
    Could I also point out that potential licence to sin is NOT confined to the OSAS position.......somebody could calculatingly live a life of debauchery and open sin......and decide to be saved or confess his sin on his deathbed.[/I].
    Any saved person who intentionally sins is putting God to the test, it is a very dangerous thing. When a saved person sins they can become weaker by gaving Satan a wedge, there is also the danger that they could become a "slave" to that sin.
    J C wrote: »
    I agree that it is very dangerous to put off being saved......you might not get the chance if you died suddenly, for example.

    However, IF somebody's sins after salvation ARE going to be judged more harshly than those of the unsaved, (as you claim)......then most people will not risk becoming saved ....until they are on the point of death.
    Jack Chick has an excellent tract based on those that put off their salvation. :)http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0009/0009_01.aspPutting off salvation is also mentioned in luke 12 vs 19 and 20.
    J C wrote: »
    Of course, with OSAS there is no such impediment.....Jesus will save you .....and ALL your sins will be forgiven via His perfect atonement.

    It is advisable to avoid sin.....and to continuously repent of any sins that you commit.but, either way, once you are saved.....you are saved!!!:D
    Thats what Satan will tell you! When a person is "saved", their sins are forgiven up to that point, His future sins are not forgiven unless he is in fellowship with Christ, if he backslides into sin he is condemed.
    J C wrote: »
    I have met older people, in particular, who were literally scared out of their wits, at the possibility of dying in sin.....because they knew that they had forgotten most of their sins.....and therefore hadn't repented of ALL their sins individually!!!
    These older people you met had either backslidden or were not walking with Christ in the first place because If they were they would have an understanding for 1 John 1 vs 9. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". ALL means ALL.


  • #177
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Ill sumerise my point, Its not a question of how many sins are accumilated to become "unsaved" its in the heart, when a person is "saved" they become a "desciple" or "Priest" for Christ, (Noel may have an issue with this one :) ) they are given a task for the rest of their lives to serve Christ and preach the Gospel. If they fail on this one they become whats known as "unprofitible servents".
    'Once a priest ALWAYS a priest'!!!:D:)
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Any saved person who intentionally sins is putting God to the test, it is a very dangerous thing. When a saved person sins they can become weaker by gaving Satan a wedge, there is also the danger that they could become a "slave" to that sin.

    Somebody DEMANDING or ASSUMING that God will do their bidding ....is putting God to the test......and no Saved person will do so!!!

    The sinful bodies of BOTH the saved and the unsaved CAN become a slave to sin.....addiction is an obvoius example.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    These older people you met had either backslidden or were not walking with Christ in the first place because If they were they would have an understanding for 1 John 1 vs 9. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". ALL means ALL.
    These people were NEVER saved.......and in many cases they refused to accept that they needed to be saved......and they put ALL of their effort into trying to remember their sins......while simultaneously worrying that they had forgotten some sins ......or would commit more sins before they died!!!!

    ......and believing on Jesus Christ to save you .....from ALL your sins .....is the only know antidiote to such worrying!!:D:)


  • #178
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    J C wrote: »
    'Once a priest ALWAYS a priest'!!!:D:)
    Maybe according to the Roman Catholic Religion :)
    J C wrote: »
    Somebody DEMANDING or ASSUMING that God will do their bidding ....is putting God to the test......and no Saved person will do so!!!
    Anytime a "saved" person knowingly commits a sin he is not alone putting God to the test but he is also giving a prise bar to satan to gain a foothold in his life and he will. It is Satans goal to try to destroy the faith of every Christian on this planet and no doubt he will do anything in his power to do so. Christ was well able for satans tactics as was shown when he was tempted for 40 days on the mount.
    It is written. "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" 1 Peter 5vs8. Again it is only those that endure to the end that are saved.
    J C wrote: »
    The sinful bodies of BOTH the saved and the unsaved CAN become a slave to sin.....addiction is an obvoius example.
    If a weaker "saved" person has an addiction whether its sexual immorality or drink, who is now the lord over their life? I doubt if it is Christ. Any "saved" Christian who has an addiction would want to seriously examine their faith because they are back on the wide road again (Did you read that tract? "the long trip?" http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0009/0009_01.asp This tract would apply to unsaved and the once Bornagain believer that has gone astray from the narrow road.
    J C wrote: »
    These people were NEVER saved.......and in many cases they refused to accept that they needed to be saved......and they put ALL of their effort into trying to remember their sins......while simultaneously worrying that they had forgotten some sins ......or would commit more sins before they died!!!!

    ......and believing on Jesus Christ to save you .....from ALL your sins .....is the only know antidiote to such worrying!!:D:)
    Anyone who is living for Christ has no fear of loosing their salvation. "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit". Roms 8:1-4 Remember that the Backslider once walked according to the spirit but no longer, he is now walking according to the flesh and is no longer living for christ.


  • #179
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Anytime a "saved" person knowingly commits a sin he is not alone putting God to the test but he is also giving a prise bar to satan to gain a foothold in his life and he will. It is Satans goal to try to destroy the faith of every Christian on this planet and no doubt he will do anything in his power to do so. Christ was well able for satans tactics as was shown when he was tempted for 40 days on the mount.
    It is written. "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" 1 Peter 5vs8.

    You can put our long-suffering God to the test, by delaying being saved ....or by assuming/demanding that God will do what YOU want.

    .....Satan is the adversary of Christians for the souls of the unsaved ......whom he may devour!!!

    The saved elect are of God .....and not of Satan!!!
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    If a weaker "saved" person has an addiction whether its sexual immorality or drink, who is now the lord over their life? I doubt if it is Christ. Any "saved" Christian who has an addiction would want to seriously examine their faith because they are back on the wide road again (Did you read that tract? "the long trip?" http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0009/0009_01.asp This tract would apply to unsaved and the once Bornagain believer that has gone astray from the narrow road.
    The sinful bodies of BOTH the saved and the unsaved CAN become a slave to sin.....and serious temporal consequences MAY follow .....so it is a good idea for an addict to avoid the object of his addiction.....just like it is a good idea for a diabetic to avoid sugar......but taking sugar or drink won't 'unsave' you....and you shouldn't do it ......because it will sicken you!!!!:)
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Anyone who is living for Christ has no fear of loosing their salvation. "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit". Roms 8:1-4 Remember that the Backslider once walked according to the spirit but no longer, he is now walking according to the flesh and is no longer living for christ.

    All your 'ifs, buts and maybes' (in relation to salvation) reminds me of a story I once heard about a woman who was getting married....and when asked by the minister if she would 'take this man as her wedded husband'......she replied "I do but..."
    After a short adjournment, matters were resolved and the wedding went ahead without any further 'buts'......and as far as I know they lived 'happily ever after'.

    There are NO 'buts' in the life-long Christian wedding commitment.....and there are no 'buts' in our eternal commitment to the Lord either........once saved always saved..............and once married always married while they both shall live !!!:)


  • #180
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    J C wrote: »
    You can put our long-suffering God to the test, by delaying being saved ....or by assuming/demanding that God will do what YOU want. Satan is the adversary of Christians for the souls of the unsaved whom he may devour!!!
    And the "Saved" who who spit in the face of God by failing to take up the commandment after their initial call.
    J C wrote: »
    The saved elect are of God .....and not of Satan!!
    Only those that remain a part of the vine and endure to the very end.
    J C wrote: »
    The sinful bodies of BOTH the saved and the unsaved CAN become a slave to sin.....and serious temporal consequences MAY follow .
    That serious consequence is eternal danmnation and separation from God. There is no in between with God, there is no luke warm, you are either "hot" or "cold" "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth". Revelation 3vs16. .
    J C wrote: »
    so it is a good idea for an addict to avoid the object of his addiction.....just like it is a good idea for a diabetic to avoid sugar......but taking sugar or drink won't 'unsave' you....and you shouldn't do it ......because it will sicken you!!!!:).
    When someone recieves Christ they become a new creature, they recieve the Holy spirit, old habits are broken, when they backslide they loose this and the old habits return like the dog returning to its vomit and they are worse off that before they were "saved".
    J C wrote: »
    All your 'ifs, buts and maybes' (in relation to salvation) reminds me of a story I once heard about a woman who was getting married....and when asked by the minister if she would 'take this man as her wedded husband'......she replied "I do but..."
    After a short adjournment, matters were resolved and the wedding went ahead without any further 'buts'......and as far as I know they lived 'happily ever after'.

    There are NO 'buts' in the life-long Christian wedding commitment.....and there are no 'buts' in our eternal commitment to the Lord either........once saved always saved..............and once married always married while they both shall live !!!:)
    God is the faithful and Just part of this "eternal wedding committment", If there is going to be a "devorce" or "separation" it will be on mans part because of sin which separates us from God.


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  • #181
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Originally Posted by Run_to_da_hills
    Ill sumerise my point, Its not a question of how many sins are accumilated to become "unsaved" its in the heart, when a person is "saved" they become a "desciple" or "Priest" for Christ, (Noel may have an issue with this one).

    Originally Posted by J C
    'Once a priest ALWAYS a priest'!!!
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Maybe according to the Roman Catholic Religion :)

    .....and ALSO according to Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.:D:)


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