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Once saved always saved is a false doctrine..
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Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Run_to_da_hills said:
Perseverance of the Saints teaches the same.The main argument of those who believe the doctrine of OSAS is that God promised security to the believer and don't get me wrong God has promised security to the believer but there is a condition...You must follow him!.
Exactly. But note what it says about His sheep. They follow Him; not, follow Him for a time. They never perish; not, sometimes perish.John 10:27-29 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”
Jesus says that the security he provides is for those who “hear my voice” and “follow me”
Indeed they don't, for the true believer cannot leave the fold or the love of God. If they sin, He chastises them and causes them to repent.These passages, however, don't discuss what happens if an individual chooses to wander from the fold, or to leave the love of God.
Remember the terms of the New Covenant: it is unconditional and cannot be broken.
Remember how God dealt with sinning saints in Corinth: sickness, and even death. Were they damned? Not at all, for the Holy Spirit gives us the reason for this chastisement:
1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.1 John 1:7 says, “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”
1 John 1:9 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
1 John 2:1 teaches, “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:”
He also says:
1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
This is the practice of sin, rather than isolated incidents. The true believer falls into sin occasionally, but never returns to sin as a dog returns to its vomit. Those who so return prove they were bogus to begin with - like Judas, who was a thief all the time he professed faith.
What do you believe this passage teaches? A true believer can fall away and perish?Consider also Hebrews 6:4-6 which says, “For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame
If so, you must also believe that any true believer who falls away never can come back. Do you believe that?
You seem to say elsewhere that they can repent and be restored.
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Not sure.
Depends on the Christian, if he is a backslider and falls away from his faith, God will do everything in his [power to try and put that person back on track through repentance BUT GOD CANNOT FORCE ANYONE TO TURN BACK. IF THAT PERSON REFUSES TO REPENT AND DIES HE WILL BE DANMED!! END OF STORY> For the wages of sin is death Romans 6 vs 23.Exactly. But note what it says about His sheep. They follow Him; not, follow Him for a time. They never perish; not, sometimes perish. Indeed they don't, for the true believer cannot leave the fold or the love of God. If they sin, He chastises them and causes them to repent. Remember the terms of the New Covenant: it is unconditional and cannot be broken.
Absolutly. The parable of the vine testifies this.What do you believe this passage teaches? A true believer can fall away and perish?
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-27(KJV)
Throughout Scripture especially in the four Gospels there are parables dealing with Repentant sinners ie. those that "saw the light", ie. "born again", "saved" that have strayed away fron the truth and have genuinely repented and have come back to it ie both the parable of the lost coin and prodogal son.If so, you must also believe that any true believer who falls away never can come back. Do you believe that? You seem to say elsewhere that they can repent and be restored.
Also Scripture there are parables of those that "saw the light", ie. "born again", "saved" that have strayed away fron the truth and NEVER came back or repented and have DIED in their sin and subsiquently ended up burning in eternal hell such as the parable of the unprofitable servant. Unfortunitally those that follow your religion, i.e. OSAS like to dismiss all these parables altogether and say they only concern the unsaved.0 -
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Not sure.
I was expecting that answer.which makes those three parables out to be NONSENSE .Run_to_da_hills said:
Yes, they only speak of the unsaved. .Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’.
No there is no contradicrtion what so ever. Many saved will endure to the end and many "saved" will fall away from grace and be danmed as simple as that.
Jesus is clearly preaching about those that were saved and went out preaching with the wrong motive. They may have thought that they were doing God a favour but will be turned away and damned on Judgement day. Such will be many of these greedy Gospel prerachers and television evangelists. This is also discussed Romans 16 vs 17.18 "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple". Romans 16 vs 17,18
These parables preach of "falling away from grace" a choice made by man and not god. a person makes the choice to follow Christ or not. Jesus preaches more about Hell than Heaven in the Bible. A book which you dismiss as important because you have this "Get out of Jail card" in your back pocket. A card which gives you amnesty to all your actions of the future no matter how bad they get. I certainly dont buy that.If these parables speak of truly saved people becoming unsaved again, then they contradict all the other texts that teach they will persevere to the end.0 -
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Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
Dear BrotherRun_to_da_hills wrote: »Once again typical of OSAS preachers, You quote scripture but ommitting the most important part of the verse. "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" Matthew 7vs23.
Backsliders are those who have fallen back into their iniquity and Our lord dose not want to know them (Unless they repent.)
Any one who believes in the lie of OSAS believes they have a full amnesty from future sin and backlsliding. I have backslidden several time since my convert back in January of 1986. I went for almost 10 years without entering a Church or opening a Bible(Except a Catholic Church for weddings and funerals) . Certain circumstances have got me to turn back to god including an almost fatal car accident in 1996, However I believe those that were once enlightened or "Saved" and are living in sin and do not answer gods whispers to repent and are living a double life are back on the wide road and are only fooling themselves by playing the church game. God detests double mindedness. "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways" James 1vs8. also "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth".Revelation 3vs 16
It is infact the American 'fundamentalist' Baptist movement that I hold responsible for dwelling on Calvinst Docterine of "perseverence of the saints" the likes of Billy Graham and others leading millions into believe in this dirty lie of the Devil.
There you go again, Quoting your little bit of scripture without the body of the text included. .
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Note: The word for enlightened also means imbued (permeated) with saving knowledge. The word for tasted also means partook of, enjoyed, experienced. So that proves these people were real born-again Christians. The word for if here does NOT mean if. It means and, also, even, indeed, but. The NASB has the correct translation here: and then have fallen away The if is not justifiable. It makes it look like if you ever fall away then you can never get back. That is not true. and then have fallen away means that they are and still in the fallen away state. The Greek word for fall away means to deviate from the right path, turn aside, wander, to error, to fall away from the true faith. But one can get out of the fallen away state by no longer being deviated from the right path, and no longer not having faith, by turning back to God. Then God's goodness leads them to repentance (Romams 2:4).
This Scripture clearly indicates that a person may become a partaker of the Holy Spirit, obviously a true born-again Christian, and yet fall away and be lost.
You have a real problem - either you abandon the English language and make NEVER to mean USED TO, BUT NO LONGER DO; and IMPOSSIBLE to mean SOMETIMES POSSIBLE - or you abandon your Christians can fall away and be lost, or fall away and be restored theology. You can't have both.
I encourage you to keep good English and gain good theology.:):) 0 -
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Not sure.
That’s kind of strange because most of these same Churches that would reject Calvanism would still holds on to one of their five points i.e. "Preservation of the Saints".Run_to_da_hills said:
BTW, just to point out that American fundamentalists generally hate Calvinism. Two friends of mine were expelled from Bob Jones University many years ago for coming to Calvinist beliefs.
Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church also holds to it.http://www.westborobaptistchurch.com/cgi-bin/perlfect/searchwbc/search.pl?q=tulip&showurl=%2Fwritten%2Fwbcinfo%2Ftulip.html 0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
You are utterly mistaken about them holding on to the Preservation of the Saints. They hold to the error that a Christian can live anyway he pleases and still go to heaven. Calvinism teaches that the Christian will overcome in his war with sin - when he falls, he rises again/when he sins, he repents. The only exception is when God disciplines him by death, so that he is taken out of his sin before he has time to repent. In both cases he is preserved by God from sin and its wages.Run_to_da_hills wrote: »That’s kind of strange because most of these same Churches that would reject Calvanism would still holds on to one of their five points i.e. "Preservation of the Saints".
Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church also holds to it.http://www.westborobaptistchurch.com/cgi-bin/perlfect/searchwbc/search.pl?q=tulip&showurl=%2Fwritten%2Fwbcinfo%2Ftulip.html
As to Phelps, he is just a nutter, by all appearances. He has latched on to Calvinism as a system to cover his theological requirements, but he has invented his own empire. I would say he is to Calvinism what the Pope is to Trinitarianism.0 -
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Not sure.
This is exactly what OSAS believes in, I certainly don't believe in this. I believe that a born-again Christian will be more scrutinized by his lifestyle than the unsaved and will suffer a greater loss than the unsaved should they not take up their calling.They hold to the error that a Christian can live anyway he pleases and still go to heaven.
Fred Phelps is just an OSAS nutter gone to extreems. 0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
I'm glad you now see the OSAS of Fundamentalism is NOT Calvinism.Run_to_da_hills wrote: »This is exactly what OSAS believes in, I certainly don't believe in this. I believe that a born-again Christian will be more scrutinized by his lifestyle than the unsaved and will suffer a greater loss than the unsaved should they not take up their calling.
Fred Phelps is just an OSAS nutter gone to extreems.0 -
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