Once saved always saved is a false doctrine..

Run_to_da_hills

PDN wrote:

However, if a Christian is deliberately engaging in sinful practices, and refuses to repent, then the New Testament appears to teach that they should be excluded from the fellowship. This means that they don't enjoy all the benefits of hanging out with the other Christians. The purpose of this is to bring home to them the enormity of what they've done and so hopefully bring them to repentance.

The comment from PDN in previous thread reminded me of a docterine I believe is false, ie once saved always saved. (OSAS) I believe a Christian can loose their salvation if they delibertly engages in sinful activity and refuse to repent and if he dies in his sin he is worse off than someone who has never known Christ in the first place. IE. "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth".(Matthew 25:30) However I believe no matter how bad a person has fallen away our lord will always accept a repentant sinner.

wolfsbane

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

The comment from PDN in previous thread reminded me of a docterine which I believe is false claiming that once someone is saved as he is always saved. I believe if a Christian delibertly engages in sinful activity and refuses to repent and if he dies in his sin he is worse off than someone who has never known Christ in the first place. IE. "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth".(Matthew 25:30) However I believe no matter how bad a person has fallen away our lord will always accept a repentant sinner.

Let me put it to you that technically you are wrong, but practically you are right.

It is true that once one is saved they cannot be lost:
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

But it is also true that a saved person cannot return to his old life and get away with it. The 'carnal Christian' doctrine has been used to justify multitudes of false professions in the past century - especially in the USA. These folk profess to be saved, yet live like the ungodly (or worse) and expect to go to heaven when they die.

The Bible has a very different picture of saved people who fall into sin:
1 Corinthians 11:30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. 6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.
7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter answered her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?”
She said, “Yes, for so much.”
9 Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. 11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.

Either repentance or discipline characterize saved people who sin.

If our lives are marked by absence of either, we are not true Christians.
Hebrews 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

keano_afc

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

The comment from PDN in previous thread reminded me of a docterine I believe is false, ie once saved always saved. (OSAS) I believe a Christian can loose their salvation if they delibertly engages in sinful activity and refuse to repent and if he dies in his sin he is worse off than someone who has never known Christ in the first place. IE. "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth".(Matthew 25:30) However I believe no matter how bad a person has fallen away our lord will always accept a repentant sinner.

But does this not pose the question, at what point does an unrepentant sinner lose their salvation? I personally dont believe salvation can be lost. Christ often spoke of ETERNAL life. If this can be lost, its not eternal. And Hebrews 13:5 tells us he will never leave or forsake us.

BrianCalgary

The question I would put forth is, 'was the person really saved in the first place?'

kelly1

Not sure.

Folks, OSAS is a dangerous doctrine that gives a false sense of security.

Mt 19:16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

There is no guarantee of salvation, we need to persevere to the END. We are saved by grace and if we die without sanctifying grace we go to Hell. Mortal sin kills the grace in our souls and casts the Holy Trinity out.

God bless,
Noel.

keano_afc

kelly1 wrote:

Folks, OSAS is a dangerous doctrine that gives a false sense of security.





There is no guarantee of salvation, we need to persevere to the END. We are saved by grace and if we die without sanctifying grace we go to Hell. Mortal sin kills the grace in our souls and casts the Holy Trinity out.

God bless,
Noel.

Well I know I'm saved, because the Bible tells me so. Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess in thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved".

kelly1

Not sure.

keano_afc wrote:

Well I know I'm saved, because the Bible tells me so. Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess in thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved".

As Jesus said in Mt 19:17, we need to keep the commandments in order to be saved. Christians don't keep the commandments without some effort on their own part. The spiritual life is a constant struggle against the world, the devil and the flesh. None of us is immune from temptations and we need to persevere in fighting against evil till the day we die:

Mt 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

It a mistake to pick and choose verses to suit our beliefs. We can't take one verse from scripture and dismiss others that appear to contradict it. e.g. Paul says we are saved by faith and James says that faith without works is dead. There's no contradiction because Paul didn't say we're saved by faith ALONE.

God bless,
Noel.

Zombrex

Surely someone isn't "saved" until they actually are, well, saved. IE they walk through the Pearly White gates.

Assuming that one is going to be saved in advance seems rather presumptuous, even for a Christian

PDN

Not sure.

Wicknight wrote:

Surely someone isn't "saved" until they actually are, well, saved. IE they walk through the Pearly White gates.

Assuming that one is going to be saved in advance seems rather presumptuous, even for a Christian

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Eph 2:8).

The New Testament uses the verb sozo - 'to save' in respect to Christians in the perfect tense (completed act), in the present continuous tense (still in progress) and in the future tense (still to come).

Zombrex

my reply seems to have been deleted, not sure why (didn't swear AFAIK which is what normally gets me into trouble ), but I'll take it as a sign from above that Christian-only discussion is preferred on this thread. Later dudes

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

my reply seems to have been deleted, not sure why (didn't swear AFAIK which is what normally gets me into trouble ), but I'll take it as a sign from above that Christian-only discussion is preferred on this thread. Later dudes

Just keep it on topic. Your post was taking us away from the question of "once saved, always saved".

keano_afc

I dont believe its arrogance for a Christian to say they are saved. As far as I'm concerned its just a statement of fact. Ask any of the Christians in this forum are they saved. I dont believe they'll say "I hope so", or "I'm not sure" or "I'll find out when I die". I think its just simple logic, ie if I recieve salvation surely that means I am saved??? Look at the story of the Phillipian jailer. he asked "what must I do to be saved? The reply was "believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shall be saved... I dont see any ambiguity here at all.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

There are two basic possibilities in relation to our salvation.....either :-

1. We save ourselves through good works and sinless lives.

or

2. Jesus Christ saves us while we are still scarlet in our sins, and though no merit on our parts.

The first possibility is actually an impossibility ........because we are not capable of saving ourselves.......or leading sinless lives

.......therefore, the second possibility is the 'only game in town' in relation to our salvation.

.....and the only condition which is stated in the Bible for our salvation is that we believe on Jesus Christ (who, as God IS capable of saving us).

The RESULT of being saved is that we will start doing good works and give up our former sinful ways......but this is a symptom and not a cause of our salvation!!!:D

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

kelly1 wrote:

As Jesus said in Mt 19:17, we need to keep the commandments in order to be saved.

Jesus did NOT say that we need to keep the commandments in order to be saved. He said the OPPOSITE, in fact......that He came to save sinners and (divine) law breakers!!!
He told the young man that he must sell all his possessions and give them to the poor.....and the young man went away unsaved (even though the young man claimed, without contradiction, that he had kept all of the commandments).
What Jesus was illustrating was the truth that nobody, no matter how virtuous, can save themselves........and everybody has their weaknesses and sins. The young man thought of himself as 'perfect' because he had kept the commandments.......but Jesus showed him that he wasn't perfect.....because he wasn't prepared to sell all of his possessions and give away the proceeds.......so everybody has their limits, and lack of virtue in some respects!!!

The commandments are law ........and there is no merit in obeying law......it is the duty of those under law to obey it. This applies to the civil law as well as to the Mosaic Law (to which the young man in Matthew 19 was subject).

Law can only condemn......if you doubt me, ask a Guard to praise you for wearing your seat belt......and if you don't wear it in his presence, will he not instantly condemn you (by issuing you with penalty points)???!!

kelly1 wrote:

Christians don't keep the commandments without some effort on their own part. The spiritual life is a constant struggle against the world, the devil and the flesh. None of us is immune from temptations and we need to persevere in fighting against evil till the day we die.

It is quite true, that Christians are tempted, like everybody else.

Equally, many non-Christians lead virtuous lives and obey both civil and moral laws........so obedience to law is neither a cause nor an unambiguous symptom of salvation.
Salvation is between an individual and Jesus Christ ..... and only yourself and Jesus know for certain that you are saved!!!!

kelly1 wrote:

It a mistake to pick and choose verses to suit our beliefs. We can't take one verse from scripture and dismiss others that appear to contradict it. e.g. Paul says we are saved by faith and James says that faith without works is dead. There's no contradiction because Paul didn't say we're saved by faith ALONE.

.

You are correct to not 'pick and choose' what to believe.......but there is no contradiction between Paul's statement that we are SAVED by faith alone (i.e the CAUSE of our salvation is faith in Jesus Christ)........
.......and James's statement that faith without WORKS is dead or false (i.e. a SYMPTOM of genuine salvation is good works)!!!:)

God bless,

J C

Zombrex

keano_afc wrote:

I dont believe its arrogance for a Christian to say they are saved. As far as I'm concerned its just a statement of fact.

Ok, it seem my post has been deleted once again, but my point was that it is judging yourself, which is something that is impossible. Only God has the wisdom to judge your entire life and only God knows how you lead your life and what you truly believed.

He knows this more than you. To claim otherwise is arrogance, it is claiming you know as much as God. I'm pretty sure there have been many people through out history who have believed themselves saved but have not been.

keano_afc

Wicknight wrote:

Ok, it seem my post has been deleted once again, but my point was that it is judging yourself, which is something that is impossible. Only God can judge you and only God knows how you lead your life and what you truly believe. He knows this more than you. I'm pretty sure there have been many people through out history who have believed themselves saved but have not been.

I'm not judging myself, thats for God to do. Read JC's posts, they hit the nail on the head. By saying i am saved I'm not passing judgement on myself, I'm merely saying i have accepted Christ's free gift of salvation. How I live my life afterwards will be a witness of that.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

kelly1 wrote:

Folks, OSAS is a dangerous doctrine that gives a false sense of security.

A belief that one can save oneself by good works is the real danger .....
.........and a so-called sinless life (which doesn't exist) is the ultimate false sense of security......as the virtuous 'pillars of society' whom Jesus encountered found out!!!!

kelly1 wrote:

There is no guarantee of salvation, we need to persevere to the END. We are saved by grace and if we die without sanctifying grace we go to Hell. Mortal sin kills the grace in our souls and casts the Holy Trinity out.

We are saved by the grace of God......and ALL sin condemns us in the eyes of God.
A repentent murderer who believes on Jesus Christ to save him will be saved ...... but an upstanding citizen who has lived a 'squeaky clean' virtuous life and 'never harmed a fly' will be condmned IF he does not believe on Jesus Christ to save him.

Very often the greatest problems, in regard to salvation, are encountered with people who believe themselves to be 'good' and 'sinless'......they can have considerable difficulties accepting that the sacrifices that they have made during their lives, count for nothing in the eyes of God, when weighed against their sins.
They can have even more difficulties in accepting that other people, whom they would 'look down upon' could EVER be saved......and they resist such a concept, like the workers in the vineyard parable who felt 'hard done by' when the owner paid the late arrivals as much for one hour's work as they had gotten for a full day's work!!!!
.......the alcoholic or the criminal are usually 'down and out' and with no pride left......so they can easily humiliate themselves before God by asking Him to save them......for some reason, they usually DON'T believe that their works will be much help to them!!!!:D

Zombrex

keano_afc wrote:

By saying i am saved I'm not passing judgement on myself, I'm merely saying i have accepted Christ's free gift of salvation. How I live my life afterwards will be a witness of that.

Yes but until you actually live the rest of your life like that you won't be saved. And only God knows the future, only God knows if you will actually do that, if you keep the gift of salvation or at some point turn away from it.

Which goes back to Hills original point, just because you think its all great now doesn't mean that you will continue to for the rest of your life. Which in turn goes back to my point, until you are actually saved you don't know you will be actually saved.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Wicknight wrote:

Ok, it seem my post has been deleted once again, but my point was that it is judging yourself, which is something that is impossible. Only God has the wisdom to judge your entire life and only God knows how you lead your life and what you truly believed.

He knows this more than you. To claim otherwise is arrogance, it is claiming you know as much as God. I'm pretty sure there have been many people through out history who have believed themselves saved but have not been.

You are correct that we don't know as much as God.........
.......but we DON'T need to know as much as God, to know that we are saved!!!
If we have believed on Jesus Christ to save us......that is all we need to know in order to know that we are saved!!!:)

There are undoubtedly many people in history who believed that they DESERVED to be saved because of their virtuous lives and good works.....who have not been saved ...... because they relied on themselves rather that Jesus Christ to save them!!!!

God knows that EVERYBODY is a sinner .......and He will therefore condemn EVERYBODY whom He judges under law.........so the only way to avoid God's judgement is to avail of His grace !!!

With God's Grace, we are no longer subject to God's Law.......it is the ultimate 'Get out of Jail Free Card'.........and all you have to do, to avail of this 'amnesty' is to humbly ASK for it......nothing more and nothing less!!!!:D

Scofflaw

Wicknight wrote:

Yes but until you actually live the rest of your life like that you won't be saved. And only God knows the future, only God knows if you will actually do that, if you keep the gift of salvation or at some point turn away from it.

Which goes back to Hills original point, just because you think its all great now doesn't mean that you will continue to for the rest of your life. Which in turn goes back to my point, until you are actually saved you don't know you will be actually saved.

Call no man happy until he is dead?

cordially,
Scofflaw

PDN

Not sure.

Wicknight wrote:

Yes but until you actually live the rest of your life like that you won't be saved. And only God knows the future, only God knows if you will actually do that, if you keep the gift of salvation or at some point turn away from it.

Which goes back to Hills original point, just because you think its all great now doesn't mean that you will continue to for the rest of your life. Which in turn goes back to my point, until you are actually saved you don't know you will be actually saved.

The Bible tells us that we can know that we are saved.

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. (1 John 3:14)

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)

So, to believe that you are already saved is not arrogance or presumption, but rather accepting what the Bible says. I think it would be much more arrogant and presumptuous for a Christian to say, "Well, the Bible may say that, but I know better".

I think one of the problems here is the false concept that salvation, or eternal life, begins at death. The message of the Christian Gospel is that salvation and eternal life have already started in this life for those who have received Christ.

Zombrex

J C wrote:

There are undoubtedly many people in history who believed that they DESERVED to be saved because of their virtuous lives and good works.....who have not been saved ...... because they relied on themselves rather that Jesus Christ to save them!!!!

Well that isn't what I meant. I meant people, like say the Popes who started all the wars, who none the less believed they were saved.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Wicknight wrote:

Yes but until you actually live the rest of your life like that you won't be saved. And only God knows the future, only God knows if you will actually do that, if you keep the gift of salvation or at some point turn away from it.

Which goes back to Hills original point, just because you think its all great now doesn't mean that you will continue to for the rest of your life. Which in turn goes back to my point, until you are actually saved you don't know you will be actually saved.

You are correct that until you are actually saved you don't know that you will actually be saved.......and that is a very good reason to get saved!!!:)

To answer your other question, will somebody who is saved, for example, murder somebody, .......

I think that they won't commit murder.......but then the vast majority of un-saved people don't murder people EITHER!!!!

Will somebody who is saved, sin in their heart ?

Although, they are saved and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, they still retain their carnal fallen bodies........and so they can sin.........but it won't feel 'right' to them.......and they will repent of it to God.......not because they will be punished for it.......but because they love God and are sorry for the offence that it has caused to Him and their fellow man!!!
It is something like a husband apologising to his wife, after she has forgiven him for something, because he loves her and she loves him. Being saved is a kind of a 'love-in' with God .......and you know what they say .........that loving somebody means that you are always having to say sorry to them!!!!:D

The Christian is supposed to forgive all persons who have sinned against them, as often as they do so........and God will behave just as magnanamously .......once we have believed on Jesus Christ, in the first place.

PDN

Not sure.

Wicknight wrote:

He knows this more than you. To claim otherwise is arrogance, it is claiming you know as much as God. I'm pretty sure there have been many people through out history who have believed themselves saved but have not been.

As far as I can see your argument takes the following form:

1. Some people have thought they knew X, but were mistaken.
2. Therefore it is impossible for anyone to know X.

Have I summed up your argument correctly?

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Scofflaw wrote:

Call no man happy until he is dead?

In such a scenario, the 'cure' could be worse than the 'disease'!!!!:eek:

.......and the good news is that you don't have to die to be saved!!!:)

kelly1

Not sure.

Hello JC, just in reply to some points you made earlier i.e.

1. We save ourselves through good works and sinless lives.
or
2. Jesus Christ saves us while we are still scarlet in our sins, and though no merit on our parts.

- because we are not capable of saving ourselves

- Jesus did NOT say that we need to keep the commandments in order to be saved. He said the OPPOSITE, in fact......that He came to save sinners and (divine) law breakers!!!

- A belief that one can save oneself by good works is the real danger .....

- and a so-called sinless life (which doesn't exist) is the ultimate false sense of security.

I'd like to clarify my beliefs a bit further. I agree, as all protestants do, that we are saved through Christ's sacrifice on the cross and nothing else. It is impossible for us to merit our own salvation.

The grace we receive from God is only possible because of Christ. We don't deserve it. Having said that God doesn't force His will upon us and we always have the free will to reject Him. If we choose to reject God and not repent of our sins, we cannot be saved.

In order to be saved, we need to co-operate with God's grace. We can't just rest on our laurels and wait to be whisked off to Heaven when we die. Imagine life is a car race. God provides us with the car and a tank full of fuel for the journey but we have start the engine, press the accelerator and steer the car. It's up to us to decide which direction to take.

How can our salvation be guaranteed given that we have free will to reject God? If someone decided they no longer wanted accept Jesus as their saviour, then wouldn't God be forcing His will upon them by saving them despite having rejected Him? There is no assurance of salvation because it depends on whether we die in a state of grace. Without sanctifying grace it is impossible for us to exist in the presence of God. It's like trying to exist underwater without scuba gear.

God does His BIT and we need to do our bit. It's all about doing God's will. Breaking the commandments (i.e. commit mortal sin) destroys the grace in our souls and makes our souls unfit for the presence of the Holy Trinity and unfit for Heaven. Fortunately Christ's passion allows for the forgiveness of sins.

Good works doesn't in itself save us but not doing good works is a sin. Afterall Jesus said the two main commandments are to love God and to love our neighbour. The parable of the Good Samaritan says it all.

God bless,
Noel.

Scofflaw

J C wrote:

In such a scenario, the 'cure' could be worse than the 'disease'!!!!:eek:

.......and the good news is that you don't have to die to be saved!!!:)

Well, that is a relief.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

As far as I can see your argument takes the following form:

1. Some people have thought they knew X, but were mistaken.
2. Therefore it is impossible for anyone to know X.

Have I summed up your argument correctly?

No, my argument is this

1. It is impossible for anyone except God to know the future
2. Therefore it is arrogant to state that one knows they definitely saved, since they don't know what the rest of their life will hold and that counts as much as what has gone previous.

You have taken the Bible quotes you gave back to me out of context. What John is saying is that we can know we are saved if we do this this and this. I'm not disputing that. You can know what will save you. But that is not the same thing. He is not saying that once we are saved we can never be unsaved. In fact the Bible talks quite a bit about those who had faith but since turned away from that faith.

Its kinda like patting oneself on the back for running a marathon 6 months before hand when they buy their first pair of trainers.

PDN

Not sure.

Wicknight wrote:

No, my argument is this

1. It is impossible for anyone except God to know the future
2. Therefore it is arrogant to state that one knows they definitely saved, since they don't know what the rest of their life will hold and that counts as much as what has gone previous.

Ah, my apologies. I had thought you were suggesting that there was some significance in the fact that many people in the past (Popes who started wars etc.) thought they were saved but were not.

You have taken the Bible quotes you gave back to me out of context. What John is saying is that we can know we are saved if we do this this and this. I'm not disputing that. You can know what will save you. But that is not the same thing. He is not saying that once we are saved we can never be unsaved. In fact the Bible talks quite a bit about those who had faith but since turned away from that faith.

No, I haven't taken them out of context at all. I am not using John's quotes to argue for "once saved always saved" (a doctrine to which I do not subscribe). I am using them them to show that is not arrogant or presumptuous to have assurance of salvation. We can know that we are saved, and John tells us some of the evidences that help us know that we are saved. The evidences that John mentions are not conditions to be fulfilled in order to be saved, but rather consequences of having already being saved.

It is impossible for anyone except God to know the future
2. Therefore it is arrogant to state that one knows they definitely saved, ...... What John is saying is that we can know we are saved if we do this this and this.

You are contradicting yourself. But I suppose that is inevitable since you are arguing that God (who you don't believe exists), will withhold salvation (which you don't believe exists) until we die and go to heaven (which you don't believe exists). Sometimes I think you just like to argue for the sake of it.

wolfsbane

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Hi, kelly1.

You said:

I'd like to clarify my beliefs a bit further. I agree, as all protestants do, that we are saved through Christ's sacrifice on the cross and nothing else. It is impossible for us to merit our own salvation.

Good, we agree on that.

The grace we receive from God is only possible because of Christ. We don't deserve it. Having said that God doesn't force His will upon us and we always have the free will to reject Him. If we choose to reject God and not repent of our sins, we cannot be saved.

Depends what you mean by free will; but we agree on your last sentence.

In order to be saved, we need to co-operate with God's grace. We can't just rest on our laurels and wait to be whisked off to Heaven when we die. Imagine life is a car race. God provides us with the car and a tank full of fuel for the journey but we have start the engine, press the accelerator and steer the car. It's up to us to decide which direction to take.

Agreed.

How can our salvation be guaranteed given that we have free will to reject God? If someone decided they no longer wanted accept Jesus as their saviour, then wouldn't God be forcing His will upon them by saving them despite having rejected Him? There is no assurance of salvation because it depends on whether we die in a state of grace. Without sanctifying grace it is impossible for us to exist in the presence of God. It's like trying to exist underwater without scuba gear.

Now you have touched the core problem of those who deny God's sovereignty in salvation (His choosing to save whomever He will). I'll leave my non-Calvinist brethren to speak for themselves, but let me give you the Calvinist response:
Our will is free in so far as it is the expression of our nature. We choose what we love, reject what we hate. The unsaved man has a nature that is hostile to God and therefore will never submit to Him, unless it is changed. When God is going to save a man, He gives him a new heart (nature) - one that loves God and hates his sinful condition. That man then freely chooses to follow Christ.

Now that he has a new nature he will never choose to reject God. So his free will and his eternal security are intact.

Why then do Christians still fall into sin? Well, like Paul, we still have the old nature clinging to us. It opposes all that the new nature loves:
Romans 7: 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Paul continues in chapter 8:
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:


“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God does His BIT and we need to do our bit. It's all about doing God's will. Breaking the commandments (i.e. commit mortal sin) destroys the grace in our souls and makes our souls unfit for the presence of the Holy Trinity and unfit for Heaven. Fortunately Christ's passion allows for the forgiveness of sins.

The error here is thinking that only some sins are so serious as to merit hell. Every sin makes us unfit for heaven, had Christ not paid for it. No sin in the Christian's life can overcome His grace. It may well bring discipline on us; and if still unrepented of, will lead to God permanently removing us from the sin, as the Corinthian Christians discovered:
1 Corinthians 11:30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
NB. We are judged, even to the point of death, so that we will not be eternally condemned.

Good works doesn't in itself save us but not doing good works is a sin.

We agree on that too.

wolfsbane

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

PDN:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicknight
No, my argument is this

Sometimes I think you just like to argue for the sake of it.

Whot? Wicknight? Surely not?!!

PDN

Not sure.

wolfsbane wrote:

Whot? Wicknight? Surely not?!!

Well, to be fair he's not alone.

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

Ah, my apologies. I had thought you were suggesting that there was some significance in the fact that many people in the past (Popes who started wars etc.) thought they were saved but were not.

There is no significance in it beyond demonstrating that just because you think you are currently saved doesn't meant you actually are. I'm sure these warring Popes "knew" they were saved as well.

PDN wrote:

Sometimes I think you just like to argue for the sake of it.

I'm not arguing PDN, I'm stating my position. You are arguing I'm wrong, though your statement that you don't believe in Once Saved Always Saved would seem to suggest you actually agree with me. So why you are arguing against my position I'm not sure.

Think of it this way. If someone knows they are saved, can they at some point in the future lose this salvation? You appear to be saying yes. And if they can, then how can they "know" they are saved originally, since they end up not being saved.

PDN

Not sure.

Wicknight wrote:

I'm not arguing PDN, I'm stating my position. You are arguing I'm wrong, though your statement that you don't believe in Once Saved Always Saved would seem to suggest you actually agree with me. So why you are arguing against my position I'm not sure.

Because you are not only arguing against "once saved always saved" but also against assurance of salvation. The Bible clearly states that we can know that we are saved.

Think of it this way. If someone knows they are saved, can they at some point in the future lose this salvation? You appear to be saying yes. And if they can, then how can they "know" they are saved originally, since they end up not being saved.

Think of it this way. A man is trapped in a burning building. Fire fighters save him from the building and drag him back behind a safety cordon. At this moment he is saved.

Then he stupidly decides to break through the cordon and run back into the burning building. He dies in the flames. Now he is not saved.

At one point he was saved, and knew that he was saved. Now he is no longer saved - but that does not mean his earlier salvation, or his knowledge of the fact, were untrue.

Scofflaw

PDN wrote:

wolfsbane wrote:

Whot? Wicknight? Surely not?!!

Well, to be fair he's not alone.

Around here he's not even unusual.

cordially,
Scofflaw

PDN

Not sure.

Scofflaw wrote:

Around here he's not even unusual.

In this respect I must admit that I am the chief of sinners.

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

Think of it this way. A man is trapped in a burning building. Fire fighters save him from the building and drag him back behind a safety cordon. At this moment he is saved.

Then he stupidly decides to break through the cordon and run back into the burning building. He dies in the flames. Now he is not saved.

At one point he was saved, and knew that he was saved. Now he is no longer saved - but that does not mean his earlier salvation, or his knowledge of the fact, were untrue.

Yes, I agree 100% with you. In fact that is my whole point. You are saved when you are actually saved

Imagine this example. The man is trapped in a burning building. He sees out the window fire trucks raising towards the building. He thinks "Oh thank God, now I know I'm saved". He sits down and starts reading the paper, flicking through the sports section, and a few minutes later a burning beam falls on top of him.

At the moment the man was arrogant to assume that he was saved just because the fire trucks were on their way. He wasn't saved. He knew he that the fire trucks were coming to save him. He knew that he would be saved. But is he saved yet? Nope.

You aren't saved until you are actually saved. This is true of all Christian concepts of Salvation, but particularly if one is speaking of salvation from death.

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Accepting this is like seeing the fire trucks coming (or for a better metaphor, calling 911 and asking for help). But until one has eternal life one is not saved from the wages of sin. For the man to say he knows he is saved was foolish and cost him his life.

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

kelly1 wrote:

Folks, OSAS is a dangerous doctrine that gives a false sense of security.

I would agree with Noel on this one. OSAS is a mith born from the Pits of Hell itself. Nowhere in the entire Bible does it teach this, If then the Bible does not teach it, from where does this teaching come. It comes from the minds of men, which is persuaded by satan, and is in fact "ANOTHER GOSPEL".

The biggest downfall, and their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth because of it, of the phylosophy behind OSAS belief, is that if that is True, there is no need to get sin out of your life, no need to change for the better, no need to walk the walk, no need to obey the Word of God, because Once you are Saved. I would have to give Satan a compliment on this docterine, he is truly very good at decieving people and having them believe things which are not Biblical, and believe that they are True. he is in fact a Master Deciever.

kelly1 wrote:

There is no guarantee of salvation, we need to persevere to the END. We are saved by grace and if we die without sanctifying grace we go to Hell. Mortal sin kills the grace in our souls and casts the Holy Trinity out.

There are many uncertainties in this life, but your soul’s salvation does NOT need to be one of them. You can KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved and on your way to heaven. “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life” (1st John 5:13).

PDN wrote:

Because you are not only arguing against "once saved always saved" but also against assurance of salvation. The Bible clearly states that we can know that we are saved.


Think of it this way. A man is trapped in a burning building. Fire fighters save him from the building and drag him back behind a safety cordon. At this moment he is saved.

Then he stupidly decides to break through the cordon and run back into the burning building. He dies in the flames. Now he is not saved.

At one point he was saved, and knew that he was saved. Now he is no longer saved - but that does not mean his earlier salvation, or his knowledge of the fact, were untrue.

Well put and could be a good way of explaining 2 Peter 2:20-22.

"If they have escaped [past tense] the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud” (2 Pet. 2:20-22).

PDN

Not sure.

Wicknight wrote:

You aren't saved until you are actually saved. This is true of all Christian concepts of Salvation, but particularly if one is speaking of salvation from death.

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Accepting this is like seeing the fire trucks coming (or for a better metaphor, calling 911 and asking for help). But until one has eternal life one is not saved from the wages of sin. For the man to say he knows he is saved was foolish and cost him his life.

Ah, now I see what is causing the confusion. Salvation, in the New Testament, is primarily from sin. Therefore, once the believer knows that his sins are forgiven, he is already saved.

Death is frequently used in the New Testament to refer, not to physical death, nor even to the eternal death of hell, but rather spiritual death. This is why Paul says to the Ephesians, "you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world" (Ephesians 2:1-2). Before the Ephesians believed in Christ they were already, in God's sight, spiritually dead.

Look again at the verse that I quoted earlier:

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. (1 John 3:14)

That makes 2 very clear statements.
1. We can know that we are saved.
2. We can know that we have already passed from death to life. We don't have to wait until we get to heaven because we have already entered into life.

Wicknight, I think, to be honest, that your insistence on the priority of hell in the whole Christian scheme of things is skewing how you read many New Testament verses. Yes, the New testament certainly warns of hell, but hell is not our major problem. Sin, for the Christian, is a bigger problem than hell. This is why Jesus had to die on the Cross, because a salvation that just wiped out hell without dealing with the problem of sin would be wholly inadequate.

So, once a Christian knows that his sins are forgiven, he or she is saved and has already passed from death to life. We can enter eternal life now, without waiting until heaven. Any attempt to describe soteriology (the study of salvation) that skirts around, or denies, these truths will be profoundly unbiblical.

Now, maybe we can get back to the OP which dealt with the doctrine of eternal security, or "Once saved always saved"? Assurance of salvation is not the issue here, for the Bible is very clear that Christians can know that they are saved. The issue is whether, after being genuinely saved, someone can lose this salvation.

Anyway, I'm posting this from the airport as I'm on my way to Donetsk, Ukraine for a week. I don't expect to have access to an internet connection, but since Christians have been debating eternal security for centuries without reaching agreement, I doubt if I will miss any major breakthrough in a week.

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

but since Christians have been debating eternal security for centuries without reaching agreement, I doubt if I will miss any major breakthrough in a week.

I'm sure someone would at least CC you

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

Before the Ephesians believed in Christ they were already, in God's sight, spiritually dead.

I suppose the core issue, and possibly my confusion, is what does that actually mean.

My understand was that to be spiritually dead means that you can live a perfectly happy and content life but when you die that it is, you are separated from God and as such condemned to hell, or oblivion or what ever.

You seem to be saying that as well as that, being spiritually dead means that now, in this current time while you are alive, you are also being constantly effected negatively by sin. And that to be saved not only means that you are saved from the inevitable fact of death and ever lasting separation from God, but also saved from the constant negative effects of sin in the current moment.

That wouldn't have been my understand of what Christianity teaches, but like anything I can be wrong (I see 100 regular posters screen snapping that sentence and dating it ). To me that doesn't quite fit with the reality of how Christians live life and view this life.

I would be interested, just for my own understanding, in how Christians actually view this salvation, ie what do they think actually happened/changed for them in their live, and how they view that in a salvation frame work.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Kelly1
Hello JC, just in reply to some points you made earlier .....

Hello Kelly, thanks for your reply.:)


Kelly1
I'd like to clarify my beliefs a bit further. I agree, as all protestants do, that we are saved through Christ's sacrifice on the cross and nothing else. It is impossible for us to merit our own salvation.

OK....but your belief in Mortal Sin and Sanctifying Grace seems to be distinctly 'non-protestant' to me!!!


Kelly1
The grace we receive from God is only possible because of Christ. We don't deserve it. Having said that God doesn't force His will upon us and we always have the free will to reject Him. If we choose to reject God and not repent of our sins, we cannot be saved.

OK, your 'moderate Armenian' position is the correct one!!!


Kelly1
In order to be saved, we need to co-operate with God's grace. We can't just rest on our laurels and wait to be whisked off to Heaven when we die. Imagine life is a car race. God provides us with the car and a tank full of fuel for the journey but we have start the engine, press the accelerator and steer the car. It's up to us to decide which direction to take.

Just ‘get in the car and start the engine’……. by using your free will to believe on Jesus Christ……..and God will do the rest!!!:D


Kelly1
How can our salvation be guaranteed given that we have free will to reject God? If someone decided they no longer wanted accept Jesus as their saviour, then wouldn't God be forcing His will upon them by saving them despite having rejected Him? There is no assurance of salvation because it depends on whether we die in a state of grace. Without sanctifying grace it is impossible for us to exist in the presence of God. It's like trying to exist underwater without scuba gear.

Our salvation is guaranteed once we are saved……which is an irrevocable, freely-entered, agreement binding on both parties between God and the individual that is saved.

Wolfsbane has eloquently put it as follows:-
Now that he has a new nature he will never choose to reject God. So his free will and his eternal security are intact.

Why then do Christians still fall into sin? Well, like Paul, we still have the old nature clinging to us. It opposes all that the new nature loves:
Romans 7: 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!


Kelly1
God does His BIT and we need to do our bit. It's all about doing God's will. Breaking the commandments (i.e. commit mortal sin) destroys the grace in our souls and makes our souls unfit for the presence of the Holy Trinity and unfit for Heaven. Fortunately Christ's passion allows for the forgiveness of sins.

…..again Wolfsbane has eloquently and correctly answered your question as follows:-
The error here is thinking that only some sins are so serious as to merit hell. Every sin makes us unfit for heaven, had Christ not paid for it. No sin in the Christian's life can overcome His grace. It may well bring discipline on us; and if still unrepented of, will lead to God permanently removing us from the sin, as the Corinthian Christians discovered:
1 Corinthians 11:30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
NB. We are judged, even to the point of death, so that we will not be eternally condemned.


Kelly1
Good works doesn't in itself save us but not doing good works is a sin.

I agree……but after you are saved, your (past, present and future) sins are forgiven…..and you are assured of eternal life.

….and insofar as you continue to sin after being saved you will be disciplined by God in this life……but you will NOT be eternally condemned in the next!!!:D


PDN
Think of it this way. A man is trapped in a burning building. Fire fighters save him from the building and drag him back behind a safety cordon. At this moment he is saved.

Then he stupidly decides to break through the cordon and run back into the burning building. He dies in the flames. Now he is not saved.

At one point he was saved, and knew that he was saved. Now he is no longer saved - but that does not mean his earlier salvation, or his knowledge of the fact, were untrue.

There is only one thing wrong with your analogy……and that is, that Fire-fighters aren’t God ……so they cannot PERMANENTLY save anybody……..but our Sovereign Omnipotent God can and does, permanently save us!!!:)

Eternal Perdition is er.......ETERNAL!!!:D

......and because Christians are saved from eternal perdition, our salvation cannot be temporary, like your fire victim example above.


Run to da hills
I would agree with Noel on this one. OSAS is a mith born from the Pits of Hell itself. Nowhere in the entire Bible does it teach this, If then the Bible does not teach it, from where does this teaching come. It comes from the minds of men, which is persuaded by satan, and is in fact "ANOTHER GOSPEL"…………
……………. I would have to give Satan a compliment on this docterine, he is truly very good at decieving people and having them believe things which are not Biblical, and believe that they are True. he is in fact a Master Deciever.

I agree that Satan is a Master Deceiver……..and among his most subtle deceptions are his attempts:-

1. To try and convince the unsaved that their sins are SO BAD that they cannot be saved.

2. To try and convince the unsaved that there is no point in being saved …..…because any sin they commit subsequently will ‘un-save’ them.

BOTH of the above are completely untrue!!!!:D


There are two basic positions on salvation:-

1. Our sinful state at the moment of death determines our salvation.

or

2. We are saved during our lives by believing on Jesus Christ.

If our sinful state determines our salvation then we would all appear to be doomed.....because we are all sinners and God will not tolerate ANY sin in His presence........and He will judge us accordingly!!!!!

There are numerous biblical passages which indicate that believing on Jesus Christ will save us....... thereby avoiding God's Judgement of our sins, which would otherwise condmn us.

We cannot mitigate our sins and therefore we cannot save ourselves.
Repenting of our sins, on it's own therefore won't save us.......so, we must place our trust in Jesus Christ to save us.
We can only believe on Jesus Christ while we are alive......and thus position two above would appear to be the correct one......


Run to da hills
The biggest downfall, and their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth because of it, of the phylosophy behind OSAS belief, is that if that is True, there is no need to get sin out of your life, no need to change for the better, no need to walk the walk, no need to obey the Word of God, because Once you are Saved.

Are you claiming that once you are saved that you COMPLETELY CEASE to sin ?

…….because I have yet to meet a sinless man, whether saved or unsaved…….

…….yes saved people try to avoid sin, yes they repent of sin…….but they are NOT sinless!!!

Can you see that under your position, NOBODY can be saved ……..because they will be almost instantly ‘unsaved’ when they commit their first sin after believing on Jesus Christ????

This is obviously not correct.....and the following quote from you shows it to be incorrect:-

Run to da hills
There are many uncertainties in this life, but your soul’s salvation does NOT need to be one of them. You can KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved and on your way to heaven. “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life” (1st John 5:13).

……so how can you KNOW that you are saved and on your way to Heaven……IF your next sin will ‘unsave’ you???

……or are you saying that the saved are sinless from the instant of their salvation????

……if so, I would like to meet such a sinless person!!!!


Run to da hills
2 Peter 2:20-22.

"If they have escaped [past tense] the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud” (2 Pet. 2:20-22).

Peter was clearly talking about people who KNEW Jesus Christ and His Word…….but who didn’t believe on Him…….and therefore WEREN’T (ever) saved!!!!!


PDN
Salvation, in the New Testament, is primarily from sin. Therefore, once the believer knows that his sins are forgiven, he is already saved.

Salvation is ONLY from Satan and Hell……and that is why Satan will move mountains to stop you being saved!!!


PDN
Yes, the New testament certainly warns of hell, but hell is not our major problem. Sin, for the Christian, is a bigger problem than hell. This is why Jesus had to die on the Cross, because a salvation that just wiped out hell without dealing with the problem of sin would be wholly inadequate.

Hell is the BIGGEST problem for the unsaved ……because they will go there if they die…..and believe me, nobody wants to go there!!!!

Jesus died on the cross for the remission of sin…….but His death did NOT wipe out Hell, for the unsaved……
…….and the good news is that each person can wipe out Hell for themselves by believing on Jesus Christ, repenting of their sins and being saved !!!


PDN
So, once a Christian knows that his sins are forgiven, he or she is saved and has already passed from death to life. We can enter eternal life now, without waiting until heaven.

The saved know that their past, present and future sins are forgiven.
The saved know that they have passed from spiritual death to spiritual life.

The saved are eternal beings….just like the unsaved….
…….but eternal life can only be entered when both the saved and the unsaved die …….with the saved entering eternal glory…..and the unsaved entering eternal perdition!!!

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote:

I agree that Satan is a Master Deceiver……..and among his most subtle deceptions are his attempts:-

1. To try and convince the unsaved that their sins are SO BAD that they cannot be saved.

2. To try and convince the unsaved that there is no point in being saved …..…because any sin they commit subsequently will ‘un-save’ them.

This is why Jesus specified in Matthew 7:13-23 that the way to salvation is a "Narrow way".

J C wrote:

Can you see that under your position, NOBODY can be saved ……..because they will be almost instantly ‘unsaved’ when they commit their first sin after believing on Jesus Christ???? :-

James gives a good answer to your question when he is addressing the BELIEVERS, "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (Spiritual death)". "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death (Spiritual death again) and cover a multitude of sins". James 5:19,20. It it up to the saved christian to avoid deliberatly sinning and "nip it in the bud" by repentance should he fall.

J C wrote:

There are many uncertainties in this life, but your soul’s salvation does NOT need to be one of them. You can KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved and on your way to heaven. “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life” (1st John 5:13).

Jesus will TAKE THIS PRIVILAGE AWAY if you deliberatly fall away, ie Read the parable of the Vine "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are BURNT (John 15vs6)

J C wrote:

The saved know that their past, present and future sins are forgiven.
The saved know that they have passed from spiritual death to spiritual life.
!!!

So my pre Christian livelyhood was selling counterfeit xxx videos, dealing in dope and getting pissed regularly, I get delivered from all this through the blood of Jesus Christ by repentance. A year I backslide and end up back doing the exact same thing again, Am I am still in my "saved" state? I would hardly think so. 1 Corrinthians vs6 is very specific. "Know ye not that the unrighteous SHALL NOT INHERIT the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind", Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

J C wrote:

so how can you KNOW that you are saved and on your way to Heaven……IF your next sin will ‘unsave’ you???!!!!

I know well that if I "return to my Vomit", and deliberatly sin against God I will be danmed and worse off than the unsaved. We are warned in 1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" to devour means to "consume", "waste", "destroy", "annihilate". Peter is talking to the believer being "consumed" by Satan.

J C wrote:

Peter was clearly talking about people who KNEW Jesus Christ and His Word…….but who didn’t believe on Him…….and therefore WEREN’T (ever) saved!!!!!!

If they werent saved as you say why did Peter quote proverb 26 vs 11 in the same verse, ie “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud” Peter was obviously talking about the backslider of the believer, ie the saved person.

J C wrote:

Hell is the BIGGEST problem for the unsaved ……because they will go there if they die…..and believe me, nobody wants to go there!!!!!!!

Hell is the BIGGEST problem for the unsaved ……because they will go there WHEN they die. (Hebrews 9vs27).

wolfsbane

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Wicknight said:

I would be interested, just for my own understanding, in how Christians actually view this salvation, ie what do they think actually happened/changed for them in their live, and how they view that in a salvation frame work.

1. God caused me to know the truth about Himself and my myself, and told me of His gracious offer of salvation in Christ. I repented and trusted in Him. His Spirit came to live in my heart, to comfort me with God's presence and power within.

2. I live my life to please Him. But I do not do so as well as I desire, for I find my old nature constantly tempting me to think of myself as the most important person and to live accordingly. It is a daily war. But it is one I know the Lord's help in waging. I may fall from time to time, but I rise again. My life is characterised by my present relationship to God (love to Him and my fellowman) not by my previous relationship (rebellion).

3. He will keep me from falling away completely, and will bring me home to Him when my day is over. Then I will be completely free from the presence and power of sin.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

kelly1

Not sure.

I think this passage clearly shows that salvation can be lost:

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

BrianCalgary

kelly1 wrote:

I think this passage clearly shows that salvation can be lost:

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

I disagree with you here kelly, I think that this verse talks abour someone who knows the truth and rejects it, and not abour someone who responds to the truth and then rejects it.

Run-to-da-hills, as a Christian, you have a desire to please God and to do His will in your life. You are saved, yet you will sin. I spend my days trying to do God's will in all things, I understand that I am a 'work in progress'.

Yet I still sin, I can't help it. I don't commit any of the biggies that I used to do before salvation, my desire for those are now gone, some took longer than others.

But, since my acceptance of Christ as Lord, I have been saved, my desire has been to serve Him, hence my salvation is secure. I will slide, God knows I will slide, because of Christ I know that when I do slide that I am forgiven which allows me to relax and get on with it and not to feel guilt and legalism which would hinder my walk with God.

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Run-to-da-hills, as a Christian, you have a desire to please God and to do His will in your life. You are saved, yet you will sin. I spend my days trying to do God's will in all things, I understand that I am a 'work in progress'. Yet I still sin, I can't help it. I don't commit any of the biggies that I used to do before salvation, my desire for those are now gone, some took longer than others..

My case was extreme, I got saved approximatly 20 years ago in my youth, it was a wonderful experience at the time, I tried to "save" all my friends, however I slid seriously and totally abandoned going to church, fellowship with other Christians and reading the Bible. I ended up dealing. It was not until I was in a personal circumstance that I cried out to God in my room for forgiveness and started to read the Bible again that I felt this wonderful experience that I had 20 years ago return.

I know now from my own experience that no matter how far a saved person will fall away, God will always accept him back, however I do believe that if I would have died in my back sliden state, I would have some serious explaining to give on Judgement day and I would have been worse off than the unsaved because I had the knowledge of the truth and deliberatly turned my back on it.

BrianCalgary wrote:

But, since my acceptance of Christ as Lord, I have been saved, my desire has been to serve Him, hence my salvation is secure. I will slide, God knows I will slide, because of Christ I know that when I do slide that I am forgiven which allows me to relax and get on with it and not to feel guilt and legalism which would hinder my walk with God.

My desire is now to serve him now , not to dwell on the past and get on with it, when I slide I keep it checked, I would not exactly "relax" as the spiritual battle is even more demanding for the Christian, I must be sober and vigilant and understand the tactics of the adversary.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

Yet I still sin, I can't help it. I don't commit any of the biggies that I used to do before salvation, my desire for those are now gone, some took longer than others.

But, since my acceptance of Christ as Lord, I have been saved, my desire has been to serve Him, hence my salvation is secure. I will slide, God knows I will slide, because of Christ I know that when I do slide that I am forgiven which allows me to relax and get on with it and not to feel guilt and legalism which would hinder my walk with God.

I'm not really following this logic.

Are you saying that no matter what sins you commit you a) won't feel bad about them because b) you are still saved.

Or are you saying that because you are saved you know you won't ever commit the "big one" sins that would stop you from being saved?

wolfsbane

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

kelly1 said:

I think this passage clearly shows that salvation can be lost:


Quote:
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

If it meant as you say, then the first time a Christian sins wilfully puts them beyond repentance. They are from that moment eternally doomed. No more sacrifice for sin remains. So much for Christ keeping His sheep safe.

The alternative meaning: It refers to those who have come to a full knowedge of the truth about Christ and have professed faith in Him - then they face opposition of some sort, and make a decision to renounce Christ in order to enjoy this life. Compare this text with the earlier one in Hebrews 6.

For all of you interested in this subject, you might like to catch:
"IRON SHARPENS IRON" radio program (heard live every Monday through Friday, 3pm-4pm Eastern in New York and Connecticut on WNYG 1440AM Christian Radio--also heard worldwide via live-streaming on the Internet at www.wnygspiritofny.com). Missed broadcasts can be heardat www.sharpens.blogspot.com. Just scroll down to the date & topic you want to hear and click on where it says "MP3 Available Here" for each broadcast you desire to listen to.

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 10th:

DR. LAWRENCE W. CARRINO, founder & director of The Omega Institute (www.TheOmegaInstitute.com) & pastor of Grace Gospel Church in Patchogue, Long Island, NY (www.GraceGospelChurch.com) will address the theme: "PERSEVERANCE & PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS: A Breeding Ground For Licentious Living???" The Reformed doctrine known as "Perseverance & Preservation of the Saints" is the teaching that authentic Christians, having been genuinly born again by the Spirit of God, will, with absolute certainty, persevere until the end of their earthly lives as disciples of Christ (although not without sin or the possibility of seasons of "back sliding"), bearing fruit of their conversion & profession, and will, without question, enter into Glory with Christ for eternity after death, because they are preserved by God Himself, and are prevented from falling away by His power.

In contrast, the Roman Catholic Church, and many with Arminian Evangelicalism (not to mention the majority of cults) believe this doctrine is the breeding ground for "sinful presumption" and licentious living. Dr. Carrino, a Reformed apologist who strongly affirms "Perseverance & Preservation of the Saints", will seek to disprove this claim by opponents of Reformed Theology, but will also warn of the dangers of those who twist this biblical teaching into a falsehood which maintains that faith need not bear fruit in order to be a saving faith and a guarantee of Heaven.

BrianCalgary

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

My case was extreme, I got saved approximatly 20 years ago in my youth, it was a wonderful experience at the time, I tried to "save" all my friends, however I slid seriously and totally abandoned going to church, fellowship with other Christians and reading the Bible. I ended up dealing. It was not until I was in a personal circumstance that I cried out to God in my room for forgiveness and started to read the Bible again that I felt this wonderful experience that I had 20 years ago return.

I know now from my own experience that no matter how far a saved person will fall away, God will always accept him back, however I do believe that if I would have died in my back sliden state, I would have some serious explaining to give on Judgement day and I would have been worse off than the unsaved because I had the knowledge of the truth and deliberatly turned my back on it.

My desire is now to serve him now , not to dwell on the past and get on with it, when I slide I keep it checked, I would not exactly "relax" as the spiritual battle is even more demanding for the Christian, I must be sober and vigilant and understand the tactics of the adversary.

What a great testimony. I love to hear about people salvation experiences. Thanks.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

I'm not really following this logic.

Are you saying that no matter what sins you commit you a) won't feel bad about them because b) you are still saved.?

I feel bad about all the sins I commit. I just don't worry about my salvation, because it is secure.

Wicknight wrote:

Or are you saying that because you are saved you know you won't ever commit the "big one" sins that would stop you from being saved?

If I were to slide back into my former life in a small way I would still be saved. But it is a moot point because I have no desire to commit those sins anymore.

The Holy Spirit has worked wonderfully to remove those desires from me.

But in the end it is what is in the heart that counts, my heart is to serve God and to accept His grace.