Once saved always saved is a false doctrine..

Run_to_da_hills

PDN wrote:

However, if a Christian is deliberately engaging in sinful practices, and refuses to repent, then the New Testament appears to teach that they should be excluded from the fellowship. This means that they don't enjoy all the benefits of hanging out with the other Christians. The purpose of this is to bring home to them the enormity of what they've done and so hopefully bring them to repentance.

The comment from PDN in previous thread reminded me of a docterine I believe is false, ie once saved always saved. (OSAS) I believe a Christian can loose their salvation if they delibertly engages in sinful activity and refuse to repent and if he dies in his sin he is worse off than someone who has never known Christ in the first place. IE. "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth".(Matthew 25:30) However I believe no matter how bad a person has fallen away our lord will always accept a repentant sinner.

wolfsbane

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

The comment from PDN in previous thread reminded me of a docterine which I believe is false claiming that once someone is saved as he is always saved. I believe if a Christian delibertly engages in sinful activity and refuses to repent and if he dies in his sin he is worse off than someone who has never known Christ in the first place. IE. "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth".(Matthew 25:30) However I believe no matter how bad a person has fallen away our lord will always accept a repentant sinner.

Let me put it to you that technically you are wrong, but practically you are right.

It is true that once one is saved they cannot be lost:
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

But it is also true that a saved person cannot return to his old life and get away with it. The 'carnal Christian' doctrine has been used to justify multitudes of false professions in the past century - especially in the USA. These folk profess to be saved, yet live like the ungodly (or worse) and expect to go to heaven when they die.

The Bible has a very different picture of saved people who fall into sin:
1 Corinthians 11:30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. 6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.
7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter answered her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?”
She said, “Yes, for so much.”
9 Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. 11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.

Either repentance or discipline characterize saved people who sin.

If our lives are marked by absence of either, we are not true Christians.
Hebrews 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

keano_afc

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

The comment from PDN in previous thread reminded me of a docterine I believe is false, ie once saved always saved. (OSAS) I believe a Christian can loose their salvation if they delibertly engages in sinful activity and refuse to repent and if he dies in his sin he is worse off than someone who has never known Christ in the first place. IE. "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth".(Matthew 25:30) However I believe no matter how bad a person has fallen away our lord will always accept a repentant sinner.

But does this not pose the question, at what point does an unrepentant sinner lose their salvation? I personally dont believe salvation can be lost. Christ often spoke of ETERNAL life. If this can be lost, its not eternal. And Hebrews 13:5 tells us he will never leave or forsake us.

BrianCalgary

The question I would put forth is, 'was the person really saved in the first place?'

kelly1

Not sure.

Folks, OSAS is a dangerous doctrine that gives a false sense of security.

Mt 19:16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

There is no guarantee of salvation, we need to persevere to the END. We are saved by grace and if we die without sanctifying grace we go to Hell. Mortal sin kills the grace in our souls and casts the Holy Trinity out.

God bless,
Noel.

keano_afc

kelly1 wrote:

Folks, OSAS is a dangerous doctrine that gives a false sense of security.





There is no guarantee of salvation, we need to persevere to the END. We are saved by grace and if we die without sanctifying grace we go to Hell. Mortal sin kills the grace in our souls and casts the Holy Trinity out.

God bless,
Noel.

Well I know I'm saved, because the Bible tells me so. Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess in thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved".

kelly1

Not sure.

keano_afc wrote:

Well I know I'm saved, because the Bible tells me so. Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess in thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved".

As Jesus said in Mt 19:17, we need to keep the commandments in order to be saved. Christians don't keep the commandments without some effort on their own part. The spiritual life is a constant struggle against the world, the devil and the flesh. None of us is immune from temptations and we need to persevere in fighting against evil till the day we die:

Mt 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

It a mistake to pick and choose verses to suit our beliefs. We can't take one verse from scripture and dismiss others that appear to contradict it. e.g. Paul says we are saved by faith and James says that faith without works is dead. There's no contradiction because Paul didn't say we're saved by faith ALONE.

God bless,
Noel.

Zombrex

Surely someone isn't "saved" until they actually are, well, saved. IE they walk through the Pearly White gates.

Assuming that one is going to be saved in advance seems rather presumptuous, even for a Christian

PDN

Not sure.

Wicknight wrote:

Surely someone isn't "saved" until they actually are, well, saved. IE they walk through the Pearly White gates.

Assuming that one is going to be saved in advance seems rather presumptuous, even for a Christian

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Eph 2:8).

The New Testament uses the verb sozo - 'to save' in respect to Christians in the perfect tense (completed act), in the present continuous tense (still in progress) and in the future tense (still to come).

Zombrex

my reply seems to have been deleted, not sure why (didn't swear AFAIK which is what normally gets me into trouble ), but I'll take it as a sign from above that Christian-only discussion is preferred on this thread. Later dudes

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

my reply seems to have been deleted, not sure why (didn't swear AFAIK which is what normally gets me into trouble ), but I'll take it as a sign from above that Christian-only discussion is preferred on this thread. Later dudes

Just keep it on topic. Your post was taking us away from the question of "once saved, always saved".

keano_afc

I dont believe its arrogance for a Christian to say they are saved. As far as I'm concerned its just a statement of fact. Ask any of the Christians in this forum are they saved. I dont believe they'll say "I hope so", or "I'm not sure" or "I'll find out when I die". I think its just simple logic, ie if I recieve salvation surely that means I am saved??? Look at the story of the Phillipian jailer. he asked "what must I do to be saved? The reply was "believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shall be saved... I dont see any ambiguity here at all.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

There are two basic possibilities in relation to our salvation.....either :-

1. We save ourselves through good works and sinless lives.

or

2. Jesus Christ saves us while we are still scarlet in our sins, and though no merit on our parts.

The first possibility is actually an impossibility ........because we are not capable of saving ourselves.......or leading sinless lives

.......therefore, the second possibility is the 'only game in town' in relation to our salvation.

.....and the only condition which is stated in the Bible for our salvation is that we believe on Jesus Christ (who, as God IS capable of saving us).

The RESULT of being saved is that we will start doing good works and give up our former sinful ways......but this is a symptom and not a cause of our salvation!!!:D

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

kelly1 wrote:

As Jesus said in Mt 19:17, we need to keep the commandments in order to be saved.

Jesus did NOT say that we need to keep the commandments in order to be saved. He said the OPPOSITE, in fact......that He came to save sinners and (divine) law breakers!!!
He told the young man that he must sell all his possessions and give them to the poor.....and the young man went away unsaved (even though the young man claimed, without contradiction, that he had kept all of the commandments).
What Jesus was illustrating was the truth that nobody, no matter how virtuous, can save themselves........and everybody has their weaknesses and sins. The young man thought of himself as 'perfect' because he had kept the commandments.......but Jesus showed him that he wasn't perfect.....because he wasn't prepared to sell all of his possessions and give away the proceeds.......so everybody has their limits, and lack of virtue in some respects!!!

The commandments are law ........and there is no merit in obeying law......it is the duty of those under law to obey it. This applies to the civil law as well as to the Mosaic Law (to which the young man in Matthew 19 was subject).

Law can only condemn......if you doubt me, ask a Guard to praise you for wearing your seat belt......and if you don't wear it in his presence, will he not instantly condemn you (by issuing you with penalty points)???!!

kelly1 wrote:

Christians don't keep the commandments without some effort on their own part. The spiritual life is a constant struggle against the world, the devil and the flesh. None of us is immune from temptations and we need to persevere in fighting against evil till the day we die.

It is quite true, that Christians are tempted, like everybody else.

Equally, many non-Christians lead virtuous lives and obey both civil and moral laws........so obedience to law is neither a cause nor an unambiguous symptom of salvation.
Salvation is between an individual and Jesus Christ ..... and only yourself and Jesus know for certain that you are saved!!!!

kelly1 wrote:

It a mistake to pick and choose verses to suit our beliefs. We can't take one verse from scripture and dismiss others that appear to contradict it. e.g. Paul says we are saved by faith and James says that faith without works is dead. There's no contradiction because Paul didn't say we're saved by faith ALONE.

.

You are correct to not 'pick and choose' what to believe.......but there is no contradiction between Paul's statement that we are SAVED by faith alone (i.e the CAUSE of our salvation is faith in Jesus Christ)........
.......and James's statement that faith without WORKS is dead or false (i.e. a SYMPTOM of genuine salvation is good works)!!!:)

God bless,

J C

Zombrex

keano_afc wrote:

I dont believe its arrogance for a Christian to say they are saved. As far as I'm concerned its just a statement of fact.

Ok, it seem my post has been deleted once again, but my point was that it is judging yourself, which is something that is impossible. Only God has the wisdom to judge your entire life and only God knows how you lead your life and what you truly believed.

He knows this more than you. To claim otherwise is arrogance, it is claiming you know as much as God. I'm pretty sure there have been many people through out history who have believed themselves saved but have not been.

keano_afc

Wicknight wrote:

Ok, it seem my post has been deleted once again, but my point was that it is judging yourself, which is something that is impossible. Only God can judge you and only God knows how you lead your life and what you truly believe. He knows this more than you. I'm pretty sure there have been many people through out history who have believed themselves saved but have not been.

I'm not judging myself, thats for God to do. Read JC's posts, they hit the nail on the head. By saying i am saved I'm not passing judgement on myself, I'm merely saying i have accepted Christ's free gift of salvation. How I live my life afterwards will be a witness of that.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

kelly1 wrote:

Folks, OSAS is a dangerous doctrine that gives a false sense of security.

A belief that one can save oneself by good works is the real danger .....
.........and a so-called sinless life (which doesn't exist) is the ultimate false sense of security......as the virtuous 'pillars of society' whom Jesus encountered found out!!!!

kelly1 wrote:

There is no guarantee of salvation, we need to persevere to the END. We are saved by grace and if we die without sanctifying grace we go to Hell. Mortal sin kills the grace in our souls and casts the Holy Trinity out.

We are saved by the grace of God......and ALL sin condemns us in the eyes of God.
A repentent murderer who believes on Jesus Christ to save him will be saved ...... but an upstanding citizen who has lived a 'squeaky clean' virtuous life and 'never harmed a fly' will be condmned IF he does not believe on Jesus Christ to save him.

Very often the greatest problems, in regard to salvation, are encountered with people who believe themselves to be 'good' and 'sinless'......they can have considerable difficulties accepting that the sacrifices that they have made during their lives, count for nothing in the eyes of God, when weighed against their sins.
They can have even more difficulties in accepting that other people, whom they would 'look down upon' could EVER be saved......and they resist such a concept, like the workers in the vineyard parable who felt 'hard done by' when the owner paid the late arrivals as much for one hour's work as they had gotten for a full day's work!!!!
.......the alcoholic or the criminal are usually 'down and out' and with no pride left......so they can easily humiliate themselves before God by asking Him to save them......for some reason, they usually DON'T believe that their works will be much help to them!!!!:D

Zombrex

keano_afc wrote:

By saying i am saved I'm not passing judgement on myself, I'm merely saying i have accepted Christ's free gift of salvation. How I live my life afterwards will be a witness of that.

Yes but until you actually live the rest of your life like that you won't be saved. And only God knows the future, only God knows if you will actually do that, if you keep the gift of salvation or at some point turn away from it.

Which goes back to Hills original point, just because you think its all great now doesn't mean that you will continue to for the rest of your life. Which in turn goes back to my point, until you are actually saved you don't know you will be actually saved.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Wicknight wrote:

Ok, it seem my post has been deleted once again, but my point was that it is judging yourself, which is something that is impossible. Only God has the wisdom to judge your entire life and only God knows how you lead your life and what you truly believed.

He knows this more than you. To claim otherwise is arrogance, it is claiming you know as much as God. I'm pretty sure there have been many people through out history who have believed themselves saved but have not been.

You are correct that we don't know as much as God.........
.......but we DON'T need to know as much as God, to know that we are saved!!!
If we have believed on Jesus Christ to save us......that is all we need to know in order to know that we are saved!!!:)

There are undoubtedly many people in history who believed that they DESERVED to be saved because of their virtuous lives and good works.....who have not been saved ...... because they relied on themselves rather that Jesus Christ to save them!!!!

God knows that EVERYBODY is a sinner .......and He will therefore condemn EVERYBODY whom He judges under law.........so the only way to avoid God's judgement is to avail of His grace !!!

With God's Grace, we are no longer subject to God's Law.......it is the ultimate 'Get out of Jail Free Card'.........and all you have to do, to avail of this 'amnesty' is to humbly ASK for it......nothing more and nothing less!!!!:D

Scofflaw

Wicknight wrote:

Yes but until you actually live the rest of your life like that you won't be saved. And only God knows the future, only God knows if you will actually do that, if you keep the gift of salvation or at some point turn away from it.

Which goes back to Hills original point, just because you think its all great now doesn't mean that you will continue to for the rest of your life. Which in turn goes back to my point, until you are actually saved you don't know you will be actually saved.

Call no man happy until he is dead?

cordially,
Scofflaw

PDN

Not sure.

Wicknight wrote:

Yes but until you actually live the rest of your life like that you won't be saved. And only God knows the future, only God knows if you will actually do that, if you keep the gift of salvation or at some point turn away from it.

Which goes back to Hills original point, just because you think its all great now doesn't mean that you will continue to for the rest of your life. Which in turn goes back to my point, until you are actually saved you don't know you will be actually saved.

The Bible tells us that we can know that we are saved.

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. (1 John 3:14)

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)

So, to believe that you are already saved is not arrogance or presumption, but rather accepting what the Bible says. I think it would be much more arrogant and presumptuous for a Christian to say, "Well, the Bible may say that, but I know better".

I think one of the problems here is the false concept that salvation, or eternal life, begins at death. The message of the Christian Gospel is that salvation and eternal life have already started in this life for those who have received Christ.

Zombrex

J C wrote:

There are undoubtedly many people in history who believed that they DESERVED to be saved because of their virtuous lives and good works.....who have not been saved ...... because they relied on themselves rather that Jesus Christ to save them!!!!

Well that isn't what I meant. I meant people, like say the Popes who started all the wars, who none the less believed they were saved.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Wicknight wrote:

Yes but until you actually live the rest of your life like that you won't be saved. And only God knows the future, only God knows if you will actually do that, if you keep the gift of salvation or at some point turn away from it.

Which goes back to Hills original point, just because you think its all great now doesn't mean that you will continue to for the rest of your life. Which in turn goes back to my point, until you are actually saved you don't know you will be actually saved.

You are correct that until you are actually saved you don't know that you will actually be saved.......and that is a very good reason to get saved!!!:)

To answer your other question, will somebody who is saved, for example, murder somebody, .......

I think that they won't commit murder.......but then the vast majority of un-saved people don't murder people EITHER!!!!

Will somebody who is saved, sin in their heart ?

Although, they are saved and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, they still retain their carnal fallen bodies........and so they can sin.........but it won't feel 'right' to them.......and they will repent of it to God.......not because they will be punished for it.......but because they love God and are sorry for the offence that it has caused to Him and their fellow man!!!
It is something like a husband apologising to his wife, after she has forgiven him for something, because he loves her and she loves him. Being saved is a kind of a 'love-in' with God .......and you know what they say .........that loving somebody means that you are always having to say sorry to them!!!!:D

The Christian is supposed to forgive all persons who have sinned against them, as often as they do so........and God will behave just as magnanamously .......once we have believed on Jesus Christ, in the first place.

PDN

Not sure.

Wicknight wrote:

He knows this more than you. To claim otherwise is arrogance, it is claiming you know as much as God. I'm pretty sure there have been many people through out history who have believed themselves saved but have not been.

As far as I can see your argument takes the following form:

1. Some people have thought they knew X, but were mistaken.
2. Therefore it is impossible for anyone to know X.

Have I summed up your argument correctly?

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Scofflaw wrote:

Call no man happy until he is dead?

In such a scenario, the 'cure' could be worse than the 'disease'!!!!:eek:

.......and the good news is that you don't have to die to be saved!!!:)

kelly1

Not sure.

Hello JC, just in reply to some points you made earlier i.e.

1. We save ourselves through good works and sinless lives.
or
2. Jesus Christ saves us while we are still scarlet in our sins, and though no merit on our parts.

- because we are not capable of saving ourselves

- Jesus did NOT say that we need to keep the commandments in order to be saved. He said the OPPOSITE, in fact......that He came to save sinners and (divine) law breakers!!!

- A belief that one can save oneself by good works is the real danger .....

- and a so-called sinless life (which doesn't exist) is the ultimate false sense of security.

I'd like to clarify my beliefs a bit further. I agree, as all protestants do, that we are saved through Christ's sacrifice on the cross and nothing else. It is impossible for us to merit our own salvation.

The grace we receive from God is only possible because of Christ. We don't deserve it. Having said that God doesn't force His will upon us and we always have the free will to reject Him. If we choose to reject God and not repent of our sins, we cannot be saved.

In order to be saved, we need to co-operate with God's grace. We can't just rest on our laurels and wait to be whisked off to Heaven when we die. Imagine life is a car race. God provides us with the car and a tank full of fuel for the journey but we have start the engine, press the accelerator and steer the car. It's up to us to decide which direction to take.

How can our salvation be guaranteed given that we have free will to reject God? If someone decided they no longer wanted accept Jesus as their saviour, then wouldn't God be forcing His will upon them by saving them despite having rejected Him? There is no assurance of salvation because it depends on whether we die in a state of grace. Without sanctifying grace it is impossible for us to exist in the presence of God. It's like trying to exist underwater without scuba gear.

God does His BIT and we need to do our bit. It's all about doing God's will. Breaking the commandments (i.e. commit mortal sin) destroys the grace in our souls and makes our souls unfit for the presence of the Holy Trinity and unfit for Heaven. Fortunately Christ's passion allows for the forgiveness of sins.

Good works doesn't in itself save us but not doing good works is a sin. Afterall Jesus said the two main commandments are to love God and to love our neighbour. The parable of the Good Samaritan says it all.

God bless,
Noel.

Scofflaw

J C wrote:

In such a scenario, the 'cure' could be worse than the 'disease'!!!!:eek:

.......and the good news is that you don't have to die to be saved!!!:)

Well, that is a relief.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

As far as I can see your argument takes the following form:

1. Some people have thought they knew X, but were mistaken.
2. Therefore it is impossible for anyone to know X.

Have I summed up your argument correctly?

No, my argument is this

1. It is impossible for anyone except God to know the future
2. Therefore it is arrogant to state that one knows they definitely saved, since they don't know what the rest of their life will hold and that counts as much as what has gone previous.

You have taken the Bible quotes you gave back to me out of context. What John is saying is that we can know we are saved if we do this this and this. I'm not disputing that. You can know what will save you. But that is not the same thing. He is not saying that once we are saved we can never be unsaved. In fact the Bible talks quite a bit about those who had faith but since turned away from that faith.

Its kinda like patting oneself on the back for running a marathon 6 months before hand when they buy their first pair of trainers.

PDN

Not sure.

Wicknight wrote:

No, my argument is this

1. It is impossible for anyone except God to know the future
2. Therefore it is arrogant to state that one knows they definitely saved, since they don't know what the rest of their life will hold and that counts as much as what has gone previous.

Ah, my apologies. I had thought you were suggesting that there was some significance in the fact that many people in the past (Popes who started wars etc.) thought they were saved but were not.

You have taken the Bible quotes you gave back to me out of context. What John is saying is that we can know we are saved if we do this this and this. I'm not disputing that. You can know what will save you. But that is not the same thing. He is not saying that once we are saved we can never be unsaved. In fact the Bible talks quite a bit about those who had faith but since turned away from that faith.

No, I haven't taken them out of context at all. I am not using John's quotes to argue for "once saved always saved" (a doctrine to which I do not subscribe). I am using them them to show that is not arrogant or presumptuous to have assurance of salvation. We can know that we are saved, and John tells us some of the evidences that help us know that we are saved. The evidences that John mentions are not conditions to be fulfilled in order to be saved, but rather consequences of having already being saved.

It is impossible for anyone except God to know the future
2. Therefore it is arrogant to state that one knows they definitely saved, ...... What John is saying is that we can know we are saved if we do this this and this.

You are contradicting yourself. But I suppose that is inevitable since you are arguing that God (who you don't believe exists), will withhold salvation (which you don't believe exists) until we die and go to heaven (which you don't believe exists). Sometimes I think you just like to argue for the sake of it.

wolfsbane

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Hi, kelly1.

You said:

I'd like to clarify my beliefs a bit further. I agree, as all protestants do, that we are saved through Christ's sacrifice on the cross and nothing else. It is impossible for us to merit our own salvation.

Good, we agree on that.

The grace we receive from God is only possible because of Christ. We don't deserve it. Having said that God doesn't force His will upon us and we always have the free will to reject Him. If we choose to reject God and not repent of our sins, we cannot be saved.

Depends what you mean by free will; but we agree on your last sentence.

In order to be saved, we need to co-operate with God's grace. We can't just rest on our laurels and wait to be whisked off to Heaven when we die. Imagine life is a car race. God provides us with the car and a tank full of fuel for the journey but we have start the engine, press the accelerator and steer the car. It's up to us to decide which direction to take.

Agreed.

How can our salvation be guaranteed given that we have free will to reject God? If someone decided they no longer wanted accept Jesus as their saviour, then wouldn't God be forcing His will upon them by saving them despite having rejected Him? There is no assurance of salvation because it depends on whether we die in a state of grace. Without sanctifying grace it is impossible for us to exist in the presence of God. It's like trying to exist underwater without scuba gear.

Now you have touched the core problem of those who deny God's sovereignty in salvation (His choosing to save whomever He will). I'll leave my non-Calvinist brethren to speak for themselves, but let me give you the Calvinist response:
Our will is free in so far as it is the expression of our nature. We choose what we love, reject what we hate. The unsaved man has a nature that is hostile to God and therefore will never submit to Him, unless it is changed. When God is going to save a man, He gives him a new heart (nature) - one that loves God and hates his sinful condition. That man then freely chooses to follow Christ.

Now that he has a new nature he will never choose to reject God. So his free will and his eternal security are intact.

Why then do Christians still fall into sin? Well, like Paul, we still have the old nature clinging to us. It opposes all that the new nature loves:
Romans 7: 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Paul continues in chapter 8:
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:


“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God does His BIT and we need to do our bit. It's all about doing God's will. Breaking the commandments (i.e. commit mortal sin) destroys the grace in our souls and makes our souls unfit for the presence of the Holy Trinity and unfit for Heaven. Fortunately Christ's passion allows for the forgiveness of sins.

The error here is thinking that only some sins are so serious as to merit hell. Every sin makes us unfit for heaven, had Christ not paid for it. No sin in the Christian's life can overcome His grace. It may well bring discipline on us; and if still unrepented of, will lead to God permanently removing us from the sin, as the Corinthian Christians discovered:
1 Corinthians 11:30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
NB. We are judged, even to the point of death, so that we will not be eternally condemned.

Good works doesn't in itself save us but not doing good works is a sin.

We agree on that too.

wolfsbane

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

PDN:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicknight
No, my argument is this

Sometimes I think you just like to argue for the sake of it.

Whot? Wicknight? Surely not?!!