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lipotrim

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,906 ✭✭✭Steffano2002


    Kenny 5 wrote:
    People always assume weight is the best thing to be watching.....it's not. Body fat % is what you want to watch.
    I don't want to know my body fat % and I don't want to be measuring myself once a week either. I don't actually look at my weight either... I just know how I'm doing thanks to my clothes (if it gets tighter or looser)
    Kenny 5 wrote:
    All your post said was the LT is for lazy people.
    IMO, that's what it is, yes. Fast and effective. Why wait 6 months to lose 10kg if you can lose it in 2 weeks? That's why I'm all for LT...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,224 ✭✭✭✭Kinetic^


    IMO, that's what it is, yes. Fast and effective. Why wait 6 months to lose 10kg if you can lose it in 2 weeks? That's why I'm all for LT...

    Ever hear about doing something right? Everything in life comes down to technique......if you've got the right technique, you'll get the reward.

    Ah the old clothes trick.....what happens if your clothes stretch? :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    IMO, that's what it is, yes. Fast and effective. Why wait 6 months to lose 10kg if you can lose it in 2 weeks? That's why I'm all for LT...

    Because in those six months you can become faster, stronger, healthier and fitter. You can not only lower you levels of adipose but increase you lean body mass, strenght vs weight ratios, muscle size and shape. You can improve your heart and lung function, the function of other organs and your self confidence. You can see the benefits of hard work come to the fore and take that attitude in to other area's of your life.

    I'm starting to feel that Lipotrim discussion has no place on the fitness board, and would be better discussed under "fashion and appearance."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,411 ✭✭✭Dr4gul4


    Kenny 5 wrote:
    what happens if your clothes stretch? :rolleyes:


    Damn you washing machine..... Fool me twice


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,388 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    Why wait 6 months to lose 10kg if you can lose it in 2 weeks?
    So after 6 months doing it properly you are 10kg lighter.
    While after 2 weeks on lipotrim and 5-1/2months going back to "normal", you are no lighter and in fact fatter since the replaced weight is more dense fat after your muscles have serverly atrophied due to taking up a medical plan intended for severely obese people that you prescribed for yourself without a doctors advice. Just so you will look slim on a beach for 1 week, or fit into a dress for a wedding for 1 day.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,389 ✭✭✭✭Saruman


    dublad23 wrote:
    Well I ahve my holidays in 4 weeks so drastic measures needed :)

    I was 11.5 stone up until last year - I'm now 13.5 stone

    Bad year and all that! Sorted now but just got to lose this!

    How tall are you? 13.5 stone is nothing to me. Im 6 feet so unless you are 5.5 feet or something small like that then your weight sounds fine.
    When i was at my best before i got married i was between 12.5 and 13 stone.
    When i rejoined the gym i was over 16 stone! Im now down below 15 again.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭t-ha


    Dragan wrote:
    Because in those six months you can become faster, stronger, healthier and fitter. You can not only lower you levels of adipose but increase you lean body mass, strenght vs weight ratios, muscle size and shape. You can improve your heart and lung function, the function of other organs and your self confidence. You can see the benefits of hard work come to the fore and take that attitude in to other area's of your life.
    Also, as you know as well as anyone Dragan, doing it right isn't something that you can do easily overnight, or at the flick of a switch. There are lots of little tricks to learn about shopping, cooking & storing the right foods quickly and economically. It takes time to be able to quickly put together a healthy meal with approximately the right balance of nutrients in a convenience shop full of processed junk. It takes time to develop back-up systems in case your dietary organisation lets you down. It takes time to know exactly what your body responds well to in the first place, both in terms of diet and exercise.

    There's plenty to learn and 6 months would go a long way towards getting it down. 2 weeks/ 3 courses/ whatever of Lipotrim and you're still nowhere.

    Oh, and as a pre-emptive strike of sorts, there's always an important event you need to look your best for.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    I've read through this and I could nearly scream with frustration. :mad: I'm not going to give advice on this topic - I've said all I'm going to say about Lipotrim, and the chances are it will be ignored anyway, becasue it's not like the guy who trains people for a living and has a tight fit athletic physique knows what he's talking about anyway - it's all in my genes you know - (they're available only in a boot cut with a size 28-32 inch waist anyway, so I doubt they'd fit).

    I do want to say this - and ANYBODY even THINKING about Lipotrim pay attention -

    When you are lying in a hosptial bed 10-15 years from know, suffering from a variety of medical complaints such as chorinc obesity, heart disease, or sever diabetes which will require the amputation of your foot (hey's there's a few more pounds off!) I want you to realise as you deal with the consequences of life led without self discipline and self respect that today you had a choice.

    You can choose to be responsible, to eat right and look after yourself or you can choose to be lazy, take the easy way out and just yo yo on "medically" monitored bulemia. You can look after you internal organs and your metabolism or you can run them into the ground so you can go back enjoy that tasty BIG MAC or another 14 packets of Walkes Salt and Vinegar and watch reruns of a tv show that you've already seen ten times.

    That's fine. I won't lose sleep over it, nor will I waste my time trying to convince you that Lipotrim and a crap lifestlye is simply a slow form of suicide that runs up my medical insurance, and that it is just downright insulting to the rest of hummnaity that you think so little of yourself, and clearly the rest of us that you would do this to your body on a regular basis, BECAUSE I and the rest of the poeple on this fine planet that want to enjoy the good weather, the next sun rise and the fact that we can breathe clearly will be out enjoying running, mountain climbing or any one of the billion things you can do when you take responsability for your health and diet.

    Fitness Nazi Rant OVER.

    Apologies for all offence not deliberately caused. Please don't right this off as someself righteous trainer giving a competely biased, over the top rant without considering the feelings of the "some people have a medical problem and no matter what they do they can't lose weight brigade" just becasue that's what this is.

    Now I understand some people are chronically obese and that Lipotirm is sometimes a necessary evil, but 9 times out of 10 a little hard work and some tasty healhty food would do just the same. If that applies or not it doesn't matter I want you to do one thing -

    THINK. For once in your lives honeslty sit down and THINK about the person that using lipotrim in such a frivoulous manner makes you. Think about how that represents you and your beliefs and ask yourself do you REALLY want to be that person.

    Now...that reminds me....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,906 ✭✭✭Steffano2002


    Kenny 5 wrote:
    Ah the old clothes trick.....what happens if your clothes stretch? :rolleyes:
    It means I'm losing weight! lol

    Anyway, I will withdraw from this discussion as I have made my thoughts clear and have nothing to add.
    I'm not like you guys and I don't know what eating right means (or how it's done) so I do it my way. I know you are right and my way of doing things is far from being the best but it's the only way that's worked for me... :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,224 ✭✭✭✭Kinetic^


    Educate yourself. It's not as if people on here just woke up one morning and knew what to do.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭Mrs_Doyle


    Kenny 5 wrote:
    Educate yourself. It's not as if people on here just woke up one morning and knew what to do.

    Quoted for truth!! I t has taken me ages to get my head around all the healthier options and various work outs, and I still have a lot to learn, but hopefully it will pay off.

    I will never touch a fad diet again though, and I mean that. I started this weight loss jazz months ago, and after months of trying various diets, losing the weight and putting it back on, I finally realised that there is no short cut to success.
    You just have to eat right and exercise more - it really is as simple as that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Kenny 5 wrote:
    Educate yourself. It's not as if people on here just woke up one morning and knew what to do.

    I did. Before that my life was simple. I was a low IQ mechanic in a small American town. People liked me and I was well known. There was a nice lady who's wooden chairs I used to buy. She was hot but she had kids. But kids grow up and move away, right? One night after a few beers I was walking home when I saw this odd light, it shot into my brain through my eyes and I woke up the enxt day and my brain was twice the size ( this makes benching just a little awkward ).

    Anyway, now….. I understand…….everything…….

    Me and my doctor, he didn't believe me so in this photo you can see the face i make when i explode peoples head
    1-1.jpg

    Me when i was younger with my friend Samuel. We had just finished eating our jam sandwiches ( i now know not to eat jam and white bread sandwiches )
    samuel_jackson_john_travolta_pulp_fiction_accidental_shooting.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,224 ✭✭✭✭Kinetic^


    Sorry I forgot to say....excluding Dragan....coz he's too pretty to read stuff.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭roy123456789


    Boru. wrote:
    I've read through this and I could nearly scream with frustration. :mad: I'm not going to give advice on this topic - I've said all I'm going to say about Lipotrim, and the chances are it will be ignored anyway, becasue it's not like the guy who trains people for a living and has a tight fit athletic physique knows what he's talking about anyway - it's all in my genes you know - (they're available only in a boot cut with a size 28-32 inch waist anyway, so I doubt they'd fit).
    NOT GIVE ADVICE! WHAT's ALL THE SH!T THAT FOLLOWS THEN!

    I do want to say this - and ANYBODY even THINKING about Lipotrim pay attention -

    When you are lying in a hosptial bed 10-15 years from know, suffering from a variety of medical complaints such as chorinc obesity, heart disease, or sever diabetes which will require the amputation of your foot (hey's there's a few more pounds off!) I want you to realise as you deal with the consequences of life led without self discipline and self respect that today you had a choice.

    STUFF YOU AND YOUR 28 INCH WAIST, I was a 19 stone obese person now 12 and a half stone thanks solely to lipotrim it was dificult but I got there!

    LIPOTRIM is delivered by HEALTHCARE professionals (pharmacy and GPs) not 2 BIT STEROID filled BODYBUILDERS dishing out their own formula for cleansing wallets every January!

    You can choose to be responsible, to eat right and look after yourself or you can choose to be lazy, take the easy way out and just yo yo on "medically" monitored bulemia. You can look after you internal organs and your metabolism or you can run them into the ground so you can go back enjoy that tasty BIG MAC or another 14 packets of Walkes Salt and Vinegar and watch reruns of a tv show that you've already seen ten times.

    That's fine. I won't lose sleep over it, nor will I waste my time trying to convince you that Lipotrim and a crap lifestlye is simply a slow form of suicide that runs up my medical insurance, and that it is just downright insulting to the rest of hummnaity that you think so little of yourself, and clearly the rest of us that you would do this to your body on a regular basis, BECAUSE I and the rest of the poeple on this fine planet that want to enjoy the good weather, the next sun rise and the fact that we can breathe clearly will be out enjoying running, mountain climbing or any one of the billion things you can do when you take responsability for your health and diet.

    Fitness Nazi Rant OVER.

    Apologies for all offence not deliberately caused. Please don't right this off as someself righteous trainer giving a competely biased, over the top rant without considering the feelings of the "some people have a medical problem and no matter what they do they can't lose weight brigade" just becasue that's what this is.

    Now I understand some people are chronically obese and that Lipotirm is sometimes a necessary evil, but 9 times out of 10 a little hard work and some tasty healhty food would do just the same. If that applies or not it doesn't matter I want you to do one thing -

    THINK. For once in your lives honeslty sit down and THINK about the person that using lipotrim in such a frivoulous manner makes you. Think about how that represents you and your beliefs and ask yourself do you REALLY want to be that person.

    Now...that reminds me....

    YEAH why don't you just REV UP

    Don't care if I get banned for this, only registered because this stupid moron pissed me off!
    SEE bold type in quote for my opinions


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,131 ✭✭✭NabyLadistheman


    Lipotrim is evil, my bird turned into a contrary arse whiledoing it..she looked absolutely horrific...pasty skin..really thin face..unnaturally sick looking with no energy. I had to make her stop as she was becoming brain washed


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    YEAH why don't you just REV UP

    Don't care if I get banned for this, only registered because this stupid moron pissed me off!
    SEE bold type in quote for my opinions


    ha ha ha ha ha.............ha


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,643 ✭✭✭✭Supercell


    Lipotrim is evil, my bird turned into a contrary arse whiledoing it..she looked absolutely horrific...pasty skin..really thin face..unnaturally sick looking with no energy. I had to make her stop as she was becoming brain washed

    Brain washed is a good description, that's exactly what doing this is like - firstly in the sense that any thought is washed away because your brain is in starvation mode (best way to describe it is like trying to see something through a fog when thinking of ANYTHING) and to do it requires a determination that borders on being "brain washed" in the normal sense.

    I lost four stone on it and put five back afterwards in case you're wondering what makes me qualified to comment here.
    I'm loosing the weight again..but this time following the excellent advice here from people like Boru. No way in hell will I ever do Lipotrim again and most certainly will do my best to convince others not to either.

    Have a weather station?, why not join the Ireland Weather Network - http://irelandweather.eu/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 ✭✭✭MajorMax


    Look unless you've tried this you don't know what the hell you're talking about, unless you have a medical degree do the world a favour and peddle your crappy OPINION somewhere else! It's beyond idiotic to base an opinion on "My mate said" or "A bloke in a pub told me".

    I've been on this diet for 8 months I started off at 33 stone and I'm now down to 15 and a half stone. I'm running in the Phoenix park for at least 3 miles every evening, and I'm bursting with energy. My blood pressure is WAY down and my resting heart rate is under 60 beats a minute.

    I have not lost muscle mass as I am exercising as well as dieting I will always be grateful to Lipotrim for literally saving my life, although when I see fat people now I want to run up to them, slap them and shout "YOU'RE FAT BECAUSE YOU WANT TO BE" I am very intolerant of lazy people now especially when it is so easy to lose weight, all you need is a little self discipline and change everything about your life, that's all

    OK rant over, anyone who's obese NOT CHUBBY do yourself a favour and try this diet, everyone else go to the gym and stop eating ****e.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    Dragging up old threads (especially on this subject) isn't fun. Dragging up old threads explicitly to abuse other posters is really not fun. While your message is well intentioned there are nicer ways of going about it. Be more mindful in future please.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 345 ✭✭dannyd20


    MajorMax wrote: »
    I've been on this diet for 8 months I started off at 33 stone and I'm now down to 15 and a half stone.

    WOW - Losing 7lb per week consistently for 8 months is an impressive figure. I just don't see how that can be healthy for anyone.

    By the way, I think that 'go to the gym and stop eating crap' is advice that will work for everyone.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,606 ✭✭✭Jumpy


    MajorMax wrote: »
    Look unless you've tried this you don't know what the hell you're talking about, unless you have a medical degree do the world a favour and peddle your crappy OPINION somewhere else! It's beyond idiotic to base an opinion on "My mate said" or "A bloke in a pub told me".

    I've been on this diet for 8 months I started off at 33 stone and I'm now down to 15 and a half stone. I'm running in the Phoenix park for at least 3 miles every evening, and I'm bursting with energy. My blood pressure is WAY down and my resting heart rate is under 60 beats a minute.

    I have not lost muscle mass as I am exercising as well as dieting I will always be grateful to Lipotrim for literally saving my life, although when I see fat people now I want to run up to them, slap them and shout "YOU'RE FAT BECAUSE YOU WANT TO BE" I am very intolerant of lazy people now especially when it is so easy to lose weight, all you need is a little self discipline and change everything about your life, that's all

    OK rant over, anyone who's obese NOT CHUBBY do yourself a favour and try this diet, everyone else go to the gym and stop eating ****e.

    You are the person it was designed for, at 33 stone you were killing yourself. 15.5 stone? Seriously man, well done.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,407 ✭✭✭✭justsomebloke


    MajorMax wrote: »
    I've been on this diet for 8 months I started off at 33 stone and I'm now down to 15 and a half stone.

    as I always say the success of a diet in not how much weight you lose, but how much you can keep off. As you are still using this diet it will be interesting to see how much of the weight you can keep off once you actually start eating properly again. In relation to you not losing muscle I call major bull**** especially if you are only running and aren't doing a weights programme


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    Hi Major,

    No one here disputes the fact that Lipotrim works to lose weight. The problem for many is the manner in which the weight is lost, and the consequences after the fact. Fundamentally as you can read above, I don't approve or recommend this diet and for good reason.

    I'm very glad that the experience however has encouraged you to enjoy a healthier lifestyle and that in itself is a big positive factor. I hope you are able to make the transition to a proper diet program and maintain the gains you have made.

    With that said, although I understand your point of view, aggressively attacking and insulting others doesn't help your cause, it will rile people and get their backs up, and they will come down harder on you as a result. Present a clear and reasoned view as to why it has worked for you and the conclusions you have reached and people will take that on board, the may not agree with you, but they can at least respect you for the manner in which you conduct yourself.

    As regards this...
    MajorMax wrote:
    unless you have a medical degree do the world a favour and peddle your crappy OPINION somewhere else

    I do. In fact I have two - one in Western Clinical Medicine and the other in Traditional Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture. I also have a number of other degrees and have multiple qualifications in Fitness and Nutrition. The opinions I express, while certainly my own, can often be backed up and supported by independent clinical evidence many of which relating to Lipotrim have already been cited in previous threads.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,388 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    MajorMax wrote: »
    Look unless you've tried this you don't know what the hell you're talking about,
    Thats like saying nonsmokers/drinkers havent a clue about the dangers of smoking/drinking. In many cases the simple fact that they are not smokers/drinkers/crash dieters, is because they have researched the proposed activity and actually know more than people who do engage in it.
    MajorMax wrote: »
    unless you have a medical degree do the world a favour and peddle your crappy OPINION somewhere else! It's beyond idiotic to base an opinion on "My mate said" or "A bloke in a pub told me".

    It takes 500+ points and several years in college to be a doctor, doesnt make you a god, though some treat them as all-knowing beings. Some lifters here with low bodyfat have been branded obese by people with medical degrees.

    In saying that most doctors should have a clue, but a lot of people on lipotrim self prescribe it without any medical advice.

    MajorMax wrote: »
    I have not lost muscle mass
    You should have a lot of muscle on you so. There are loads of TV programs on these days featuring obese people, 40-60stone. I am always very surprised at how low their body fat % is. They must have a lot of muscle to support this huge weight, in effect they are doing farmers walks all day long so must have massive leg muscle.

    Are you certain you lost no muscle? did you get your body fat% measured before and after lipotrim, or are you simply guessing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Guys, Major Max won't be replying for a while, he's on time out due to a severe lack of manners.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭roy123456789


    Boru. wrote: »
    Hi Major,

    No one here disputes the fact that Lipotrim works to lose weight. The problem for many is the manner in which the weight is lost, and the consequences after the fact. Fundamentally as you can read above, I don't approve or recommend this diet and for good reason.

    I'm very glad that the experience however has encouraged you to enjoy a healthier lifestyle and that in itself is a big positive factor. I hope you are able to make the transition to a proper diet program and maintain the gains you have made.

    With that said, although I understand your point of view, aggressively attacking and insulting others doesn't help your cause, it will rile people and get their backs up, and they will come down harder on you as a result. Present a clear and reasoned view as to why it has worked for you and the conclusions you have reached and people will take that on board, the may not agree with you, but they can at least respect you for the manner in which you conduct yourself.

    As regards this...



    I do. In fact I have two - one in Western Clinical Medicine and the other in Traditional Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture. I also have a number of other degrees and have multiple qualifications in Fitness and Nutrition. The opinions I express, while certainly my own, can often be backed up and supported by independent clinical evidence many of which relating to Lipotrim have already been cited in previous threads.

    Me again, where do you get off being so self rightous!
    I'm finished this diet a month now and have maintained my weight at 12:5 which is a healthy weight for my height.
    I tried exercise and restraint before without success, but with lipotrim was able to achieve my goal, I'm determined now to keep the weight off, by eating healthy and exercising regularly, why are you trying to talk folk out of this amazing cure, it works;

    Here's the proof, me, before and after


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,880 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


    I tried exercise and restraint before without success

    So you took the lazy way out.

    I wanted to lose fat and gain muscle. I've been in the gym over a month and have seen (for me) shockingly cool results. My legs are tightening up, my arms are growing and overall strength has improved. My cardio has improved massively as well. Importantly, I'm enjoying it. It's actually fun (with the exception of squats and deadlifts which makes me cry)

    If I was given a choice between taking a potentially dangerous diet and paying through the nose for it and draining the fat off me to the point where I was a weak wasted individual or going to to the gym and improving myself then I'll pick the gym any day.....

    It just amazes me that you have the willpower to starve yourself for weeks on end but not to get off your arse and do a bit of running. Fat lady who I work with has finally bitten the bullet and joined our company gym and has gone down a dress already. She's already on the way to looking great and she knows it too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭roy123456789


    So you took the lazy way out.

    I wanted to lose fat and gain muscle. I've been in the gym over a month and have seen (for me) shockingly cool results. My legs are tightening up, my arms are growing and overall strength has improved. My cardio has improved massively as well. Importantly, I'm enjoying it. It's actually fun (with the exception of squats and deadlifts which makes me cry)

    If I was given a choice between taking a potentially dangerous diet and paying through the nose for it and draining the fat off me to the point where I was a weak wasted individual or going to to the gym and improving myself then I'll pick the gym any day.....

    It just amazes me that you have the willpower to starve yourself for weeks on end but not to get off your arse and do a bit of running. Fat lady who I work with has finally bitten the bullet and joined our company gym and has gone down a dress already. She's already on the way to looking great and she knows it too.

    I was able to keep up diets short term but eventually went out on a social or whatever lost hope and floundered, Lipotrim gave me the incentive i needed. I now walk for 2 hours every day, Lipotrim is administered by GPs and Pharmacists, you on the other hand probably take advice from keep fit people , magazines, or even worse....... the ever so self righteous Boru

    Here's the proof,(again), me, before and after [/QUOTE]


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    I was able to keep up diets short term but eventually went out on a social or whatever lost hope and floundered, Lipotrim gave me the incentive i needed. I now walk for 2 hours every day, Lipotrim is administered by GPs and Pharmacists, you on the other hand probably take advice from keep fit people , magazines, or even worse....... the ever so self righteous Boru

    Here's the proof,(again), me, before and after
    [/quote]

    If your weight has stayed off its due to the 2 hours walking every day and not because of lipotrim.Starvation diets are dangerous,they screw up your metabolism and eat into your muscle,including your heart.No GP with any conscience would reccomend this as an alternative to excersise and a good diet.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,388 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    why are you trying to talk folk out of this amazing cure, it works;
    Are you really amazed by it? do you not think eating only ~500kcal of any food would have resulted in weight loss? or do you think it could only have happened while eating lipotrim
    was able to keep up diets short term but eventually went out on a social or whatever lost hope and floundered, Lipotrim gave me the incentive i needed
    Why was this, was the high price the incentive? Was the fact it was working why you kept going? if you had done your other diets and limited yourself to 500kcal a day it would have had similar results.

    You can buy similar ingredients and make your own lipotrim with similar nutritional value for a fraction of the cost.

    from your link site
    it was quite difficult and if it wasn't delivered by Pharmacies I would have grave concerns about it
    I could make my own concoction and restrict sales to pharmacies, thats all lipotrim did. It is a food, it doesnt have to undergo peer review or anything, its not like some approved drug or something. Just because it is in a pharmacy doesnt mean it is any different from something off the shelf in tescos. If it was only on sale in tescos would you have started on it? They are clever marketers preying on peoples prejudices. The massive cost also is smart, people think it must be something special, and will pay over the odds for something slyly inferred to be a pharmaceutical product.


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