Pharmacists not dispensing methadone to junkies.

Archeron · 16-10-2007 01:55PM

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20001203/ai_n14516176

Arent we all just perfect examples of humanity here on boards.ie

Many peoples lives have been destroyed by the scourge of heroin, and whether we like it or not, as a so called civilised society, we have to deal with it in the best, most humane way possible.
Remember people in central Dublin marching against the drugs and what they were doing to society and to our cities? Remember young peoples lives being devastated? Remember families being torn apart by this epidemic?

Of course, it doesnt involve us, so who gives a f*ck. What a delightful attitude.

Tigger · 16-10-2007 01:55PM

Wertz wrote: »

That's a very good point....methadone programmes have merely been outsourced to pharmacy shops by the HSE as a way to avoid them having to have dedicated clinics and staff. That's not to say that pharmacists don't make a good wage out of it (if they didn't why would they jeopardise potential business from "normal" customers whom 99% of probaly don't want to stand in the same shop as a heroin addict)

Folks, how someone became a junkie isn't really up for discussion here....it's crying over spilt milk. The fact is that we have these dependant people and as degsy points out they can more or less hold us to ransom. The money spent to placate their addiction is small beans comapred to the financial costs of crime used to fund a habit and the money leaving the economy and pouring into some drug lord's pocket.
You can say "lock them up, let them die" and whatever, but we're a civilised society...as much as many peole might want to do that, we can't...

Analogies with drink aren't really applicable unless you're a chronic alcoholic....for most of these people meth doesn't even get them high; it just takes the edge off, kills the craving so they can try and get on with their day to day lives.

I do feel that it should be a programme of depletion (of methadone not junkies) not of maintaince

yom 1 · 16-10-2007 01:57PM

Wertz wrote: »

If you want to pay for the branding then go right ahead, but you shouldn't expect to have the bill footed for your whim...

For your information I dont avail of any HSE funded schemes so if I need drugs (which thankfully I dont that often) I pay for it fully, 100% me, my money, my choice. I dont expect anyone to pay for my WHIM.... but that was a first class effort in making an assumption!

Like I said I can understand where the HSE is coming from but likewise the IPU knows that its, shall we say older more fussy clients, off whom they make most of their money, will not want to be given generic drugs.

The HSE needs to reduce its spending - which is fine but surely they could have reached a middle ground before things got this far instead of forcing pharmacists to sell the more popular drugs at a loss

Tigger · 16-10-2007 01:58PM

Archeron wrote: »

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20001203/ai_n14516176

Arent we all just perfect examples of humanity here on boards.ie

SNIP

Of course, it doesnt involve us, so who gives a f*ck. What a delightful attitude.

thats what you see when you read this thread?

Dragan · 16-10-2007 01:59PM

Savman wrote: »

ROFL!

Can i just ask why you feel that comment was worthy of a laugh?

Savman wrote: »

Its a world none of us understand and "you always fear what you don't understand". That was in Batman Begins. Good movie.

I believe that film also had the quote "It's not who i am underneath, but what i do that defines me."?

Degsy · 16-10-2007 02:00PM

Wertz wrote: »

kills the craving so they can try and get on with their day to day lives.

And what day to day lives would that be?Stealing,dealing drugs,drinking,pricking around and taking drugs.being a junkie in most cases is a lifestyle choice.Its also a full-time job that has its own vocabulary,heirarchy,behaviour patterns and **** knows what else.If you listen to these shiitheads on the street or on the bus,they're not ashamed of themselves,they're not trying to get clean.They're living the full-time junkie lifestyle and embracing everything that goes with it.They brag about how much their habit costs,they sell the methadone to other junkies so they can buy heroin and a lot of them deal heroin and other drugs to fund thier habit.Leave them to it i say,but dont expect me to pay for it.

Savman · 16-10-2007 02:03PM

Archeron wrote: »

Of course, it doesnt involve us, so who gives a f*ck. What a delightful attitude.

While I agree with your sentiments, you have to accept that the keyboard warriors here on boards is a fair reflection of society as a whole. That's kinda the way Ireland is these days, the attitude of "brush it under the carpet and as long as them junkies stay away from me then they can die a horrible death for all I care." Me me me me.

Ignorance is bliss. Most people **** themselves if a junkie so much as asks them the time. Its not the heroin addicts that are going around with guns shooting everything in sight. Do not confuse junkies with scumbags.

Tigger · 16-10-2007 02:05PM

Dragan wrote: »

Can i just ask why you feel that comment was worthy of a laugh?

i don't think he belives you

I believe that film also had the quote "It's not who i am underneath, but what i do that defines me."?

if you want a batman quote

I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you.

Dragan · 16-10-2007 02:07PM

rbd wrote: »

i don't think he belives you

Ah right. Well it is an message board afterall, so i wouldn't really expect him to? Once he doesn't expect me to give a **** either way.

Wertz · 16-10-2007 02:07PM

rbd wrote: »

I do feel that it should be a programme of depletion (of methadone not junkies) not of maintaince

Oh definitely....I've been trying to find answers on google but medical opinions seem to vary widely on how long methadone programmes should last. Some say months, some say years.
But replacement therapy, if it's working, should definitely be with an eye to weaning people off the replacement substance too. You shouldn't even need to tell addicts that you're doing this (as the addiction is very psycological at this stage)...merely cutting their dosage every month by a few mg should eventually train any dependant into non-dependence.

BTW methdaone itself has a much harsher withdrawl phase than heroin, which is kind of ironic...the cold turkey period also lasts longer. All that and it doesn't even get you pinned....bummer.

Tigger · 16-10-2007 02:08PM

Savman wrote: »

While I agree with your sentiments, you have to accept that the keyboard warriors here on boards is a fair reflection of society as a whole. That's kinda the way Ireland is these days, the attitude of "brush it under the carpet and as long as them junkies stay away from me then they can die a horrible death for all I care." Me me me me.

Ignorance is bliss. Most people **** themselves if a junkie so much as asks them the time. Its not the heroin addicts that are going around with guns shooting everything in sight. Do not confuse junkies with scumbags.

if a junkie asks they time is it more likley he ;
1..wants yer mobile

2..wants to know what time the methadone is ready

3..is on his way to a job interview and due to traffic has been delayed and feels he may need to ring ahead to explain

is_that_so · 16-10-2007 02:08PM

Wertz wrote: »

That's a very good point....methadone programmes have merely been outsourced to pharmacy shops by the HSE as a way to avoid them having to have dedicated clinics and staff. That's not to say that pharmacists don't make a good wage out of it (if they didn't why would they jeopardise potential business from "normal" customers whom 99% of probaly don't want to stand in the same shop as a heroin addict) but ultimately it's just another cost cutting excersise....soemthing the HSE seem to be good at in terms of patients; less so with their 20 layers of beauracracy...

There are only so many clinics that can be funded.
One of the problems with clinics, as pointed out by Paddy O'Gorman in the piece I linked to is that addicts who "might" be trying to give up don't have to run the gauntlet of a clinic surrounded by addicts. Nor does anyone else for that matter. A pharmacy can serve the local population better and help eliminate that type of problem. Without the pharmacies they revert to gathering outside clinics. I recall Pearse Street clinic he mentions and had I needed to, would certainly not have been inclined to go near the place with the constant gathering of junkies outside.

Savman · 16-10-2007 02:09PM

Dragan wrote: »

Can i just ask why you feel that comment was worthy of a laugh?

The whole argument of "my mate is from Finglas and he doesnt own a horse" is so ridiculous it defies any logical response. Many people from Finglas are successfull career folk. But some own horses. And some are gun toting scum.
That statement is such a cliche, it makes me laugh when people use it trying to make a serious point, because it really doesnt prove anything.

I believe that film also had the quote "It's not who i am underneath, but what i do that defines me."?

Maybe, but isn't Batman the defender of weak and vulnerable?

Tigger · 16-10-2007 02:09PM

Wertz wrote: »

Oh definitely....I've been trying to find answers on google but medical opinions seem to vary widely on how long methadone programmes should last. Some say months, some say years.
But replacement therapy, if it's working, should definitely be with an eye to weaning people off the replacement substance too. You shouldn't even need to tell addicts that you're doing this (as the addiction is very psycological at this stage)...merely cutting their dosage every month by a few mg should eventually train any dependant into non-dependence.

BTW methdaone itself has a much harsher withdrawl phase than heroin, which is kind of ironic...the cold turkey period also lasts longer. All that and it doesn't even get you pinned....bummer.

i was looking on google also seems that the more drawn out symptons are less physically damaging from the meth

cance · 16-10-2007 02:12PM

no sympathy tbfh,

they'll find another way to score drugs.

Dragan · 16-10-2007 02:14PM

Savman wrote: »

The whole argument of "my mate is from Finglas and he doesnt own a horse" is so ridiculous it defies any logical response. Many people from Finglas are successfull career folk. But some own horses. And some are gun toting scum.
That statement is such a cliche, it makes me laugh when people use it trying to make a serious point, because it really doesnt prove anything.

While i see your point the simple fact is that the reasons some of the people with heroin problems were offering up for why they started using were similarly cliche "it was all around me" , "everyone was doing it" , "what was i supposed to do".

I think we all know people who have hard lives and easy lives and i think we all know people from both paths who might have some kind of substance issue and some from both paths who have made a great success of themselves? The simple fact is that at each stage , for each person , a choice was made and accepting some responsibility for yourself never goes astray.

Savman wrote: »

Maybe, but isn't Batman the defender of weak and vulnerable?

Only in the films, if you like the comics he's really just a lunatic with a rubber fetish who can't get over the fact that there was **** all he could do to save his parents. He's not defending the weak and vulnerable, he's desperately trying to find a reason to forgive himself for what he see's as failing his family. But i think that might be another topic.

Tigger · 16-10-2007 02:14PM

is_that_so wrote: »

I recall Pearse Street clinic he mentions and had I needed to, would certainly not have been inclined to go near the place with the constant gathering of junkies outside.

it was called trinity house and i had to deliver methadone there about 14 yrs ago from the rutland clinic

i was a dispatch biker and they never told me what i had in the bag

there vwere about 20 junkies outside and they were all asking what i was ding there i said i was picking up

i rang the intercom and a security guy came to the door took him forever to let me in

it was a truley horrible place

Savman · 16-10-2007 02:14PM

rbd wrote: »

if a junkie asks they time is it more likley he ;
1..wants yer mobile

2..wants to know what time the methadone is ready

3..is on his way to a job interview and due to traffic has been delayed and feels he may need to ring ahead to explain

What does it matter, by the time you tell him the time he's forgotten he's asked. By picking on the heroin junkies, you're really just picking on the weak, vulnerable and/or stupid. People who really have no clue and are not of sound mind. It's no different than bullying someone with a disability because that's what these people have.
They can be waned off the stuff over time, let's see you try wane a pistol out of the dealers hand. Who's worse here, the guy injecting the stuff or the guy driving a Merc on the profits? It's a vicious circle, and you're just picking on the little guy cos, like the rest of us, you're afraid of the big guy.

Tigger · 16-10-2007 02:18PM

Savman wrote: »

What does it matter, by the time you tell him the time he's forgotten he's asked. By picking on the heroin junkies, you're really just picking on the weak, vulnerable and/or stupid.

i'm not picking on him i want to wean him off it and give him skills and a job

i want to teach him to fish not just give him fish

People who really have no clue and are not of sound mind. It's no different than bullying someone with a disability because that's what these people have

.

'm gonna agree to disagree here

They can be waned off the stuff over time, let's see you try wane a pistol out of the dealers hand. Who's worse here, the guy injecting the stuff or the guy driving a Merc on the profits? It's a vicious circle, and you're just picking on the little guy cos, like the rest of us, you're afraid of the big guy.

i'm not picking on anyone

the guy in the merc is a different issue and i'm not scared of him i just think he likes it when i'm polite

Wertz · 16-10-2007 02:19PM

yom 1 wrote: »

For your information I dont avail of any HSE funded schemes so if I need drugs (which thankfully I dont that often) I pay for it fully, 100% me, my money, my choice. I dont expect anyone to pay for my WHIM.... but that was a first class effort in making an assumption!

Like I said I can understand where the HSE is coming from but likewise the IPU knows that its, shall we say older more fussy clients, off whom they make most of their money, will not want to be given generic drugs.

Wertz wrote:

If you want to pay for the branding then go right ahead, but you shouldn't expect to have the bill footed for your whim...

Okay, use of the term "you" wasn't general enough....this wasn't intended as an attack on your lifestyle choices, more so a dig at people with that attitude toward generic drugs to begin with. It's none of my business if you buy your pharmaceuticals, have them part funded or fully supplied by the tax payer and I wasn't making that assumption or judging you for it.

Older more fussy clients demading brand name drugs?
It's a feckin' chemists...you go in with a prescription from your doctor...at the bottom of it all it's not down to the patient what drug they're prescribed, but if they want the fancy packaging and adverts then they should pay the difference, that is my point.
As for the IPU ending up selling brand names at a loss? Sorry but :rolleyes:

Savman · 16-10-2007 02:23PM

Dragan wrote: »

While i see your point the simple fact is that the reasons some of the people with heroin problems were offering up for why they started using were similarly cliche "it was all around me" , "everyone was doing it" , "what was i supposed to do".

I think we all know people who have hard lives and easy lives and i think we all know people from both paths who might have some kind of substance issue and some from both paths who have made a great success of themselves? The simple fact is that at each stage , for each person , a choice was made and accepting some responsibility for yourself never goes astray.

Leaving Batman aside, I full accept that these people have made a conscious decision to take the first hit. After that it was all downhill. Let me ask, have you never made one wrong decision? Because I see most people making bad life threatening decisions every day on the roads, they get away with it, junkies dont. Once you get in, chances are you don't get out. So while they are fully responsible for the initial dive in, they still need outside help to save them from drowning.

I accept and understand the general contempt people have toward the whole thing, but the truth is this kind of dismissive mindset does not make the problem go away. In all my encounters with junkies, I've never been harmed in any way nor have I been mugged or threatened yet on the few encounters I had with local chavs I got enough of a beating to know who the real scum are in this country.

Tigger · 16-10-2007 02:26PM

Savman wrote: »

Leaving Batman aside, I full accept that these people have made a conscious decision to take the first hit. After that it was all downhill. Let me ask, have you never made one wrong decision? Because I see most people making bad life threatening decisions every day on the roads, they get away with it, junkies dont. Once you get in, chances are you don't get out. So while they are fully responsible for the initial dive in, they still need outside help to save them from drowning.

I accept and understand the general contempt people have toward the whole thing, but the truth is this kind of dismissive mindset does not make the problem go away. In all my encounters with junkies, I've never been harmed in any way nor have I been mugged or threatened yet on the few encounters I had with local chavs I got enough of a beating to know who the real scum are in this country.

thats a skewed persective then

and arent chavs english

thne little scumbags here 4arent chavs

moco · 16-10-2007 02:28PM

I was listening to the radio this morning and there was this guy on methadone who can't get it saying 'I'm gonna have to go out and rob people now'

That's just a disgusting way for anyone to think!

Savman · 16-10-2007 02:30PM

rbd wrote: »

thats a skewed persective then

and arent chavs english

thne little scumbags here 4arent chavs

No these ones were definitely Irish. You can call them what you want but if you're gonna nitpick over what title we give to lowlife ratbastard scumbag filth then knock yourself out bud, I've better things to do.

Wertz · 16-10-2007 02:35PM

Disgusting yes, but that's his reality.

We'd all like to have heard him say "I'm gonna have to go home now and sh*t myself for a week whilst drowning in my own sweat" but he was never going to consider that avenue.

Degsy, I'm not ignoring you, you know WTF you're talking about and you make some very valid points....in a lot of cases the junkie lifestyle is chosen and they're proud of it and whatever. I won't accept that they sell meth now (maybe years ago), sure haven't they to swallow it there and then in the pharmacy? I'm not going to pretned to know everything about this....like everyone, I have a skewed perspective (FFS who doesn't?) and I can only take people at their word, but of what junkies I know or have met in my area, most of them want to try and quit the gear, to get back to normal life....they know taking it was a mistake and now their lives are ruled by it. These people would be of a different generation of junkies than the old school dubs that this dispute is mainly effecting, which may be the difference...

the_syco · 16-10-2007 02:40PM

Savman wrote: »

That is not the person they truly are and behind that junkie condition there was a real person once.

We're both talking about junkies who mug people to feed their habit, yes?

=-=

The reason why I say "tough sh|t" is because it's not a treatment: it's a replacement. I've seen them f**king inject themselves with their gear, smoke their gear (usually on the 9:50am 41c in the weekday mornings), at the back of the bus. I've also seen them waiting for their fix in their bunches outside St Steevens, and have heard how the staff have gotten attacked by some of them.

Get them off the Heroin, onto the Methadone, and take them off that after 6 months or so. And if they go back on the stuff, put them in solitary for a while.

Tigger · 16-10-2007 02:42PM

moco wrote: »

I was listening to the radio this morning and there was this guy on methadone who can't get it saying 'I'm gonna have to go out and rob people now'

That's just a disgusting way for anyone to think!

yup
:cool:

yom 1 · 16-10-2007 02:48PM

Wertz wrote:

Okay, use of the term "you" wasn't general enough....this wasn't intended as an attack on your lifestyle choices, more so a dig at people with that attitude toward generic drugs to begin with. It's none of my business if you buy your pharmaceuticals, have them part funded or fully supplied by the tax payer and I wasn't making that assumption or judging you for it.

Fair enough, I accept that

Wertz wrote:

As for the IPU ending up selling brand names at a loss? Sorry but :rolleyes:

Many, many people will currently be prescribed a brand name. They dont have to worry about its price as it will be on there DPS or medical card. If they are on repeat prescriptions they will not want to change their drugs to suit the HSE/pharmacists for fear of a reaction they may have to a different generic drug and familiarity with their current ones. The cost isnt a factor to them so they will try and keep their currently prescribed drug. Whats currently being proposed will cause Pharmacists to sell certain items at a loss. I know pharmacy's make substantial profits but they shouldn't have to sell stuff at a loss

I dont know what can be done to rectify this. On one hand HSE wants to reduce spending and on the other IPU dont want to lose profits. Maybe they could change it so that Pharmacists would break even on selling brand name drugs and make a profit on generic ones, instead of the currently proposed loss on brand/profit on generic. This would force some generic drugs to become more widely recognised and used, which is good cos they are still cheaper than the brand name but doesnt stop the pharmacists selling brand names either, which the HSE would still be paying less for. Then again maybe this wouldnt work either

Degsy · 16-10-2007 02:51PM

Wertz wrote: »

Disgusting yes, but that's his reality.

We'd all like to have heard him say "I'm gonna have to go home now and sh*t myself for a week whilst drowning in my own sweat" but he was never going to consider that avenue.

Degsy, I'm not ignoring you, you know WTF you're talking about and you make some very valid points....in a lot of cases the junkie lifestyle is chosen and they're proud of it and whatever. I won't accept that they sell meth now (maybe years ago), sure haven't they to swallow it there and then in the pharmacy? I'm not going to pretned to know everything about this....like everyone, I have a skewed perspective (FFS who doesn't?) and I can only take people at their word, but of what junkies I know or have met in my area, most of them want to try and quit the gear, to get back to normal life....they know taking it was a mistake and now their lives are ruled by it. These people would be of a different generation of junkies than the old school dubs that this dispute is mainly effecting, which may be the difference...

No they dont have to take it there and there all the time.If you're on maintanance you can get "take aways" which is enough Phy to last you X amount of time.In order to qualify for this they must have clean urine,this is not difficult as they simply fill a syringe with somebody else's piss and give that as a sample.They can then be given 1000mls of physeptone which they sell to thier mates at up to 20 quid a hit(a small glassfull).The fact is that a junkie would much rather be taking actual heroin than methadone.You dont get the "rush" from oral substitutes and thats what its all about.They'll happily t ake methadone when they're "sick" but it wouldnt be thier first choice.Also,heroin isnt the only thing junkies will inject when they're in the mood."napps" or diamorphine tablets can be crushed up and injected as can Temgesic tablets.I'm of the opinion that junkies are junkies because they (not all of them) LIKE being junkies.

yom 1 · 16-10-2007 02:52PM

Wertz wrote:

I won't accept that they sell meth now (maybe years ago), sure haven't they to swallow it there and then in the pharmacy?

Depends on how bad they are some people can be given a weeks supply to take at home as they can be trusted not to sell it. Others will try to sell it so have to take it in front of the pharmacist

Pharmacists not dispensing methadone to junkies.

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