Cop Shot!

Dutes wrote:

Seriously - get a life you ar*ehole.
The world never has and never will revolve around you.

Before posting here again, please read the charter.

Personal abuse is a bannable offence.

Arming the gardaí with firearms will cause more social problems. Everything will get much more tense in run down areas, things will get more secular, people may take more drastic efforts to break out of the poverty cycle and will be fueled by hatred for those that keep them down. Poor people will be shot because of the situations that they get forced into by the system. Then well say "Oh another scumbag got shot by the guards stealing a car, good enough for him", and then continue eating our caviar.

We have the special branch for busts/shootouts/other serious situations and the army for moving our monies around, I think thats more than enough guns on our streets. By the reports on the incident it doesnt seem like the guard would have had a chance to shoot even if he had a gun anyway.

Wouldnt the solution be to stop the baddies getting guns you say? Well it would help a hella lot yes. The real solution is stopping what makes bad guys in the first place. Sure there will always be a contingent of any population that will choose the wrong path but theres a lot we can do to stop people from being the bad guys. Arming the guards could help this as it raises the stakes and acts a deterrant, but the end result is more people being shot and I dont believe thats acceptable. Cracking down on the drugs culture, working to alleviate poverty and giving the youth some sort of meaningful life are part of what we should be aiming for.

Manic Moran wrote:

How young are you?

The more relevent question is how much did I really care about gun law until it somehow affected me? Answer: didn't pay the slightest bit of attention.

Manic Moran wrote:

Once upon a time, there was this place called "Northern Ireland", and the people there didn't get along. They would shoot each other! This was deemed a problem by the government, and they decided that the best way to stop everyone from shooting everyone else was to get everyone to turn in their guns. Hence the "Temporary Order" of whenever it was, 1973 or thereabouts, if I recall which created the defacto ban on pistols and large-calibre rifles.
It was only lifted after a court battle a couple of years ago.



That may have happened, but it wasn't stopped. All the firearms, usually pistols and centrefire rifles, were stored in a facility near Garda HQ. In theory, you had 'visiting rights' to your firearm. You couldn't take it out, you couldn't shoot it, but you could fondle it longingly, I guess. I recall reading an article in an Irish Shooter's magazine about five years back wherein the author reported on such a visit, and was quite approving of the manner/condition in which the firearms were stored, (I believe 30,000 of them, but that's from fading memory) and the records associated with them. I understand that the problem now is that a lot of the people who owned the firearms died/moved away over the intervening thirty-odd years, so there are a bunch of as-yet unclaimed ones.

Now I know you're making this up as even when I was in primary school there was a local gun hunting club near my aunt (so about 15 years back maybe more).
And when in secondary school one of my teachers went pigeon shooting on the weekends. So either you're having very long term black outs or have a very strange concept of "a couple of years". Sure it was a few years back that I was actually told about this by said friend (hence why I couldn't remember what the reason behind it was).
And P.S., trying to be condescending about a topic even current primary school children are fully aware of just shows your ignorance of Ireland. Regardless of what the media where you are may like you to believe the "troubles up north" are in no way finished, they're just drastically reduced and it'll be a long time before anyone in the island of Ireland can grow up without being aware of them.

Manic Moran wrote:

Though this is technically correct, the civilian in question was the uniformed Garda assigned to the embassy.

No, according to the news reports following the incident and even when the whole thing was being investigated, the garda was the one to pass the gun to the civilian he did not pass it to the other garda (two were on duty there, got drunk during lunch and had a row), he passed it to a civilian member of the embassy staff.

coyote6 wrote:

Think of the US where police are armed as standard, there was a big incident a number of years back where 2 robbers were kitted out in full body armour and with assault rifles, was extremely difficult for the police to stop them and it resulted in a prolonged shootout which resulted in numerous people being shot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout


That incident from a police perspecitve was a training and equipment issue. Officers had to borrow AR15's from a gun store! Excellent marksmanship is absolutely crucial for many reasons not the least of which is the safety of the public. Neutralizing guys armed and armored like the North Hollywood guys requires something larger in caliber than a handgun and very good marksmanship.

Which is just proving my point, give out guns and the criminals will just seek to better equip themselves, forcing the gardaí to better equip, causing the criminals to better equip again, etc... etc...

Manic Moran wrote:

Of note, the Garda report has 'homeowner present' at almost 60% of burglaries, the US homeowner-present rate is just under a quarter.

Homeowner present in ~60% of burlaries, yet we don't constantly hear of people being shot in their own homes except when "the individual was known to the gardaí" (i.e. was a involved in criminal gangs), and yet you want the thieves to have easier access to gun and a stronger need to put them into use when committing the robbery.

0ubliette wrote:

Wow, some quickly googled internet 'research' is really going to win that argument. Lived in the states last year and not once was i mugged, slagged for no reason walking down the street, both of which have happened to me in my own area in dublin. The people are friendlier and nicer than any area of dublin ive ever been too but feel free to google 'irish crime rates versus US crime rates' if it makes you feel better.

Theres more social division there, like london, poor people are kept away from the wealthy.

Also kudos for bringing to light my typo, surely a mark of you're superior argument.


Edit: Oh yeah, the crime rates speak for themselves!

Manic Moran wrote:

I am aware of the following transgressions. These are not headlining crimes like armed robbery and murder, but they are crimes none-the-less.

I'm not sure how accurate you can use that though as a comparison of Ireland -v- U.S. after all, crime rates in different areas vary greatly.

I could spend 14 years living in Terenure and experience no crime, and spend 3 weeks in Finglas and have my home burgled and my car robbed (though that probably wouldn't happen). We all know of people who've had continual trouble with crime on and off their property and we all know people (like myself) who've barely had someone get angry with them in 10 years.

So while your own experiences do indicate to you that you've been safer in the U.S., it can't be used as anything approaching a remotely reliable metric of crime rates.

Even overall or per-capita rates can be misleading. Different population spreads, different cultural dynamics and different economies, breed different types and rates of crime. Some countries may have burglary/robbery rates 10 or 20 times that of Ireland, but experience murder rates well below ours. Crime prevention methods even vary between countries - what works well in Rome or Zagreb, may not work at all in Dublin and vice-versa.

Manic Moran wrote:

It seems then that back when you were in an Irish primary school, I was a member of an Irish rifle club. (God, has it been that long?).

However, here's a snip from an article from 2001: (Looks like I was two years off)

HUNDREDS of legally held pistols and revolvers that were confiscated during the height of the Troubles in the 1970s may soon be returned to their owners.

The move comes as the 2,500-member National Rifle and Pistol Association (NRPA), prepares to take legal action in the High Court to try to force the return of the guns to owners and shooting clubs.

The guns were collected by the Gardai and the Army in 1972 amid fears that they would be stolen by the Provisional IRA.

A special "temporary custody" order under the Firearms Act was made by the then Justice Minister, Desmond O'Malley, as the death toll in Northern Ireland rose to 500.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20011118/ai_n14538217

I've emphasised the important bits, once 1972 passed (or certainly by the late 80's) people were out buying their guns once again and you could even see them on sale in country sports stores. So while perhaps they are only getting around to returning the ones they took in 2001 they haven't been taking them from people who legally owned them for many years.

Manic Moran wrote:

This news report seems to disagree with you. (As does the one in the Independent)
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1009/garda.html


NTM

Ok, my bad, had it wrong, point still stands though that you can't really trust these people to behave responsibly with firearms, the simple fact that he went drinking while carrying proves that.

Seanies32 wrote:

Generalisation of the year! :rolleyes:

What, that you can't trust someone who goes drinking while wielding a firearm, or even while supposedly working, to behave responsibly, strange that they have warnings on heavy machinery regarding using while tired or under the influence of alcohol then isn't it I think a gun is just as lethal as heavy machinery.

If the police are to be armed they will all have to (as coyote6 pointed out) be taken away to be trained in both their use and their proper use. There would need to be a lot of accountability should anything happen when the general view of members of this forum regarding the embassy incident seemed to be that if it had not been at the embassy it would've been swept under the rug and nothing would have been done to the garda, why would improper use of firearms by gardaí be any different excepting where it results in injury to a person.
*couldn't find a damned link for the article so I'll leave out what else I had typed, I'll reenter later it if the paper's still at home.