Cop Shot!

Stercus Accidit

Orange69 wrote:

Have you ever actually lived in the USA and decided for yourself? As opposed to sucking down the media garbage...

I dont think I'd have to reserch very hard to disprove that...

Trojan911

seamus wrote:

Ah, it's all the same
In reality though yeah I'm talking about burglary.

I hear you....

It amuses me when I hear people going on about how they were "Robbed" when a perp breaks into their unattended car/house when in reality the charge would be thrown out in court on a technicality for wrong wording of the charge. I suppose "Robbed" is the chosen word for Joe Public.

TJ911...

PS. Any update on the wellbeing of the officer? The last I heard he was still stable.

0ubliette

Motosam wrote:

I dont think I'd have to reserch very hard to disprove that...

Wow, some quickly googled internet 'research' is really going to win that argument. Lived in the states last year and not once was i mugged, slagged for no reason walking down the street, both of which have happened to me in my own area in dublin. The people are friendlier and nicer than any area of dublin ive ever been too but feel free to google 'irish crime rates versus US crime rates' if it makes you feel better.

Dave!

0ubliette wrote:

Wow, some quickly googled internet 'research' is really going to win that argument. Lived in the states last year and not once was i mugged, slagged for no reason walking down the street, both of which have happened to me in my own area in dublin. The people are friendlier and nicer than any area of dublin ive ever been too but feel free to google 'irish crime rates versus US crime rates' if it makes you feel better.

It doesn't matter a lick what you "felt" as you walked through Beverly Hills -- statistically, the US has a higher rate of crime than Ireland.

Nehpets

Zambia232 wrote:

Its what you press before changing the gearie

Also, terrible about the shooting. I think it is time for the cops to get guns. (Yes I said cops - OMG!). Also reduce criminal rights!

EdgarAllenPoo

It could well have been my brother which is scary but luckily he hasn't been sent on the bike course yet but when I heard the first bit of news this morning they didn't specifically mention a motorcycle garda, just traffic corps.

I think the motorcycle gardaí should be armed. They're out on their own and in situations like this it could have acted as a deterrent.

SimpleSam06

Degsy wrote:

These pricks should be dispersed the length and breath of the countries jails,

Whats the problem with shipping them off to a nice little accommodation in Manila penitentiary, for example? I saw a ten by ten cell there, with over a dozen inmates inmates in it walking around rapidly in a tight circle, just trying to get some air circulation. One of the top ten most horrible things I have ever seen, I can tell you.

MrPudding

0ubliette wrote:

Wow, some quickly googled internet 'research' is really going to win that argument. Lived in the states last year and not once was i mugged, slagged for no reason walking down the street, both of which have happened to me in my own area in dublin. The people are friendlier and nicer than any area of dublin ive ever been too but feel free to google 'irish crime rates versus US crime rates' if it makes you feel better.

I lived in Ireland, both North and South, for 33 years without incident. So what? To be honest I am more comfortable with research from reasonable sources than the fact that some random person managed "to live in the states last year" without getting mugged. But then, that's just me....

MrP

Wossack

0ubliette wrote:

Wow, some quickly googled internet 'research' is really going to win that argument. Lived in the states last year and not once was i mugged, slagged for no reason walking down the street, both of which have happened to me in my own area in dublin. The people are friendlier and nicer than any area of dublin ive ever been too but feel free to google 'irish crime rates versus US crime rates' if it makes you feel better.

Personal experience aint gonna win the argument any better tbh

kirving

I think that armed scumbags would have a lot more reservations about shooting a Garda if they knew that the Garda(a trained marksman) would shoot back. In reality though, its gonna happen whether Gard's are armed or not, but I'm sure gun crime, especially against Gardai over all would slow down.

Scoobydoobydoo

I used to think that it was a good thing the Gardai weren't armed but I think it's time this changed. A baton or mace spray isn't going to be much use against the many well armed vermin they will be facing. It's a pity but that's the way it is.

Manic Moran

Trojan911 wrote:

I would say no to this. There was a big debate on this issue in the UK some years back & all they did was up the Armed response Units.

I hang out on a British board a lot, and a similar topic came up last week. Apparently they recently took a survey of rank-and-file officers (as opposed to asking the administrators up in their towers). The vast majority wished they didn't need to be armed, but a moderate majority felt it was necessary.

Up until 1936, British police were armed as a matter of routine, leaving it up to the individual constable if he felt it were required or not. Carried inconspicuously in a pocket, instead of on a hip holster as we'd know it today. .455 Webleys were apparently the sidearm of choice. After that date, it was up to the discretion of the Sergeant if the constable needed it or not. It wasn't until 1956 that British police were much more restricted in firearms issuance, with 'pulses' happening at various times. For example, in the 1980s, one in five London constables were armed, and a couple of years ago the city of Nottingham armed beat bobbies with external sidearms for a couple of months. It's actually at the discretion of the local chief, it's not a nationally mandated policy that British police be routinely unarmed. However, I'm not sure that the Garda in this case would have been any better off for it.

the US has a higher rate of crime than Ireland

Actually, I'm not sure that's true. I'll be fairly willing to accept that the US has a higher violent crime rate, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if the non-violent crime rate were lower. I'll put pounds to pennies that the burglary rate is lower in the US, for example. (Although this may be distorted by the fact that we can and do shoot burglars here.) Whether the low 'non-violent' crime rate manages to outweigh the effects of the violent crime rate, I guess the figures would have to show.

If the garda had been shot dead i would understand totally closure but he's STABLE

I never understood that philosophy. It's like saying that attempted murder should be punished less severely than murder. The only difference between the two is that the victim was lucky enough to live in one case. Certainly it's not due to any difference in intent, which surely should be what counts? If someone wants to go around shooting Gardai, I would hope that they'd make best effort to catch them, even if he missed.


NTM

Orange69

0ubliette wrote:

Wow, some quickly googled internet 'research' is really going to win that argument. Lived in the states last year and not once was i mugged, slagged for no reason walking down the street, both of which have happened to me in my own area in dublin. The people are friendlier and nicer than any area of dublin ive ever been too but feel free to google 'irish crime rates versus US crime rates' if it makes you feel better.

Similar experience myself.. The US just felt much more civilized, people were much friendlier and there was a real sense of community even in the cities.. I saw no senseless vandalism or street fights even in the drinking areas.. Walking through the streets of Cambridge/Boston felt 1000 times safer than when i lived in Dublin, where i was mugged once and our house was burglarized once and attempted a second time..

I used to lived on a ground floor apartment in Boston in a disadvantaged area (all i could afford) and i felt perfectly safe having my window open onto the street all night..

Im not trying to get in an argument, this is just my experience..

MooseJam

I think the guards should be armed as a matter of course

nyarlothothep

Yeah, they should be equipped with guns, bigger batons and dobermans. A good solution would appear to be zero tolerance combined with social initiative programs.

timmywex

DarkJager wrote:

Here in Limerick, the situation has gotten so out of hand, that we now have ERU patrols (armed) driving around the citys trouble hotspots. AFAIK, they are on orders to incapacitate anybody seen brandishing a firearm.

are you seriously saying they are on a shot to kill policy?? or shot to injure? thats b*ll wherever you heard that, my dad was an armed garda for years, he only drew his weapon twice at anyone(excluding raids etc where he had it out already) and at that never shot it. The gardai have a strict policy on firing a weapon, can only be a last resort. reasoning MUST happen fist, as seen with this inquest from the lusk senario and abbeylara. Every bullet that is discharged ina public area has to be filed up and investigated.

Mrs. MacGyver

To be honest as a resident of the North Strand Area, it's quite frightening.
Hope the policeman make a full recovery.

markk06

timmywex wrote:

my dad was an armed garda for years, he only drew his weapon twice at anyone and at that never shot it.

Yeah but i also note that your hometown is "back arse of nowhere" so it is safe to assume that your dad worked somewhere similar??

Things are different in Dublin timmy! Its all well and good driving around wexford in an old mondeo but i think things might be different if you are responding to shootings and bank raids in some of dublins "hot spots" where the lovely dealers buy in automatic weapons which are designed to pierce armour

op hope the Garda makes a full recovery

lemansky

Two of the lads from Road Wars spent some time over in the US to make a documentary.............they said that they felt much safer being in a position where they confront criminals over there, rather than the same situation here. They said that when they approach a car to tell the driver a tail light is out they are jumpy, but in America, the procedures they use, the presence of a gun, it all made it better. Firearms don't have to be used to do their job in policing.

Oh and I know a Garda through a friend who draws his weapon everyday(excluding raids as they don't count in these discussions). They dont need to fire them and the outcome is always a victory to the Guards. Why?The threat of a gun. Would it have been the same outcome without a gun?No. The Gardaí need more guns out there, this doesnt however mean that they will use them or that it will in somehow worsen the situation.

lemansky

timmywex wrote:

my dad was an armed garda for years, he only drew his weapon twice at anyone(excluding raids etc where he had it out already) and at that never shot it.

Not getting into an argument but that was just his experience, other armed Gardaí draw weapons everyday.

coyote6

Zambia232 wrote:

What ?

I don't get you

I say arm the Gardai. The cops here are armed and always will be.

A scumbag with a firearm should not turn a cop into a defenceless entity.

I've been an American cop for 10 years. I can tell you this: My wife and 4 kids sure are glad I go to work armed. I am too. I owe it to them to do everything in my power to come home without any extra holes in me.

The issue is TRAINING. I've been a trainer for some time and I think GOOD training and GOOD policy is key. The leaders of any police force need to lead from the front and not be selective in the enforcement of policies and procedures. Officer conduct must be above reproach. The department culture MUST be that ordered to prevent stupid s*#% from happening. The ethos of the Garda must be one of integrity. THEN and only then roll out armed Garda.

cjt156

cjt156 wrote:

WOW!!!

now you've done it - OK; show us some stats.

US safer than Ireland???[/QUOTNew York is definitely safer than Dublin.

MrPudding

MrPudding wrote:

I woul dhave thought that knowing you were approaching a stolen car would be quite valuable information. No?



Sh1t. I am really of of date on the news. I did not reasilse the crime problem in the states had been solved. I am presuming as you are so sure that 3 strikes and longer prison sentences in hard prisons will solve our problem overnight you can show a country that does this and it has been a success?

MrP

From what i saw of the news earlier, i was under the impression that the car had been stolen earlier in the year (May) and the owner had spotted it in the area. He rang it in, the Garda on the bike spotted it and flagged it down. The passenger got out and shot him with a sawn-off. If this is true (and it may be complete twaddle........I was watching it in a pub @ lunchtime with the sound down low), then they were obviously going to do a job in the area.

The worse part is that they just shot him, instead of getting out, pointing the gun at him and telling him to GTFOutta there, and just throwing the keys off the bike down onto the tracks. I'd be willing to bet that if they're caught, that they're pretty hardened criminals.

As for the 3 strikes rule, it's a HUGE HUGE mistake. In the states, any crook that has 2 strikes finds it easier to get away with hold-ups etc. by killing any witnesses/by-standers, rather than leave somebody who can later identify them. After all, if the sentence is the same whether you kill someone or not, why leave it to chance?

Manic Moran

Going back off-topic for a bit, as I was having lunch at the local In-N-Out (Opposite an armed public transport cop), going from the relative crime rate discussion, I was having a think about the crimes that my family have been on the receiving end of, and where they happened. Of course, purely annecdotal and not proving of anything, but food for thought.

Of the 27 appropriate years of my life (I'm 32, but five were spent in Belgium), split 13 and 14 years in the US and Ireland, also split 5-5-9-8 (US-IRL-IRL-US) I am aware of the following transgressions. These are not headlining crimes like armed robbery and murder, but they are crimes none-the-less.

Burlgaries: US: None. Ireland One. (Plus two more in Belgium, but we'll leave that)
Car Stolen: US: None. Ireland. One. (Subsequently destroyed by fire after the joyride).
Car Broken Into but not stolen: US One. Ireland. One. (The T-Bird was in multi-month open-lot storage as I was in Basic Training and was broken into the week I returned. The Fiesta spent a night on the street in Dublin)
Battery: US: None. Ireland. One. (Over a parking space, of all things).
Bike Nicked*: US None. Ireland. Two.
Mugging: US None. Ireland. One.
Identity Theft: US One. (But all money returned, and it's a recent phenomenon). Ireland None. (At least, not that my family have told me)

I can't think of anything else, but so far, for my family at least, the US seems to have been better to us in the crime department. Of course, none of this has anything to do with cops being armed.

NTM

*I don't own a bike in the US, so it may not be a fair comparison. However, I do own other assets not in Ireland, which can counter-act this.

coyote6

Orange69 wrote:

The PC brigade will eat you alive

But this extreme measure is not even needed .. all thats required is a proper justice system somewhat like that in the USA.. Seriously anyone who shoots a cop should be doing 30 years without parole and anyone who steals a car and rams a cop car should be looking at maybe 15-20.

We should have zero tolerance and a 3 strikes policy.

And nice big juicy prison somewhere in the arsehole of mayo, no luxuries, no tv and visits behind glass.. The crime problems this country has would be solved overnight..

My experience with the US justice system has left me jaded and cynical. In my neck of the woods it just seems to be worth the risk to be a scrotebag criminal. There is not much of a penalty. What that does to the cops is we just try to watch each other's backs and get through each shift. We don't worry about what the prosecutors or judges do.

I've been studying Brehon law. Now THAT may work....hold the person's family responsible for the behavior as well as the bad guy. I think laws crafted based the Brehon laws would work but the civil libertarians would have kittens.

Reku

nikolaitr wrote:

Well see thats the thing.

Criminals have easy access to guns at the moment. Forgetting that any criminal worth his salt at least has a 10 inch bread knife.
....
Thats defeatist thinking. People should have the power to defend themselves and their family, you are kidding yourself if you think the police will catch the majority of criminals, let alone stop the crime from occuring.

This is the real problem, if the gardaí weren't such an inept, lazy and incompetent force (generalisation before anyone objects) there would be far fewer illegal firearms to be used by criminals and the conviction rate for crime would be a deterent in and of itself.

A friend who is in a gun club told me about how a number of years back there was a brief period where people for some reason (honestly can't remember what it was I'm afraid:( ) were required to turn in their firearms. These were then logged along with the details of the person who turned them in. The whole thing was stopped though when one of the guns that had been handed in was used in a shooting and traced back, showing that some of the gardaí had been pocketing and selling on the guns.
Then think about the US embassy incident (where one of the gardaí tossed his sidearm to a civilian and headed home).
Do these people really have enough respect for firearms that we should so readily trust them with the authority to use them when necessary as opposed to just when they feel like it.
***coyote6 beat me to this point but I'll leave it in to echo it***

nikolaitr wrote:

Criminals would think more than twice about entering your house if there was a possibility of an armed defender inside

I feel that the sad reality is, as I've already voiced as my oppinion, they'd just make sure to be better kitted out and they'd make sure to kill the occupants before rummaging, instead of waiting to be cornered to attack.

Think of the US where police are armed as standard, there was a big incident a number of years back where 2 robbers were kitted out in full body armour and with assault rifles, was extremely difficult for the police to stop them and it resulted in a prolonged shootout which resulted in numerous people being shot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

Do you want all the scum bags in Ireland to be outfitted with this kind of armour and firearms?
It's as pointless as the international arms race, every side is always trying to outdo the others and as a result it just keeps escalating, when will it end, when everyone fits their home with explosives on a deadman's switch so if anyone dares break in and kill them they'll level an entire street?:(


Sad fact is that humans cannot be trusted with any kind of destructive power.

Rovi wrote:

"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

Anyway, I think they should bring in laws against assault and murder.

Have to say, think this is among the, if not THE, funniest use of sarcasm I've actually ever encountered.
*pats Rovi on the back*:)



And as for the belief that just because they didn't have any experiences of crime while in the US that it is safer; my American co-workers could quickly dispell that illusion.
one had addicts break in to their house and flood the basement
another had a member of his staff run past his office door carrying a handgun and pursued by the police, the man had just shot his girlfriend...
then there's stories of shootouts between meth addicts and police in caravan parks they were staying in...etc...

whereas in my entire time in this country I've only ever once been physically attacked and that was a stupid drunk and the only people I know who've had any real hassle have been from drunks and overly aggressive Roma beggers. I don't think car/bike theft is really a valid thing to compare as the guns argument is rather pointless here since an unoccupied vehicle cannot draw a gun on someone trying to steal it.

Manic Moran

farohar wrote:

A friend who is in a gun club told me about how a number of years back there was a brief period where people for some reason (honestly can't remember what it was I'm afraid:( )

How young are you?

Once upon a time, there was this place called "Northern Ireland", and the people there didn't get along. They would shoot each other! This was deemed a problem by the government, and they decided that the best way to stop everyone from shooting everyone else was to get everyone to turn in their guns. Hence the "Temporary Order" of whenever it was, 1973 or thereabouts, if I recall which created the defacto ban on pistols and large-calibre rifles.
It was only lifted after a court battle a couple of years ago.

were required to turn in their firearms. These were then logged along with the details of the person who turned them in. The whole thing was stopped though when one of the guns that had been handed in was used in a shooting and traced back, showing that some of the gardaí had been pocketing and selling on the guns.

That may have happened, but it wasn't stopped. All the firearms, usually pistols and centrefire rifles, were stored in a facility near Garda HQ. In theory, you had 'visiting rights' to your firearm. You couldn't take it out, you couldn't shoot it, but you could fondle it longingly, I guess. I recall reading an article in an Irish Shooter's magazine about five years back wherein the author reported on such a visit, and was quite approving of the manner/condition in which the firearms were stored, (I believe 30,000 of them, but that's from fading memory) and the records associated with them. I understand that the problem now is that a lot of the people who owned the firearms died/moved away over the intervening thirty-odd years, so there are a bunch of as-yet unclaimed ones.

Then think about the US embassy incident (where one of the gardaí tossed his sidearm to a civilian and headed home).

Though this is technically correct, the civilian in question was the uniformed Garda assigned to the embassy.

I don't think car/bike theft is really a valid thing to compare as the guns argument is rather pointless here since an unoccupied vehicle cannot draw a gun on someone trying to steal it.

As I said, a little off-topic, but still relevant to the 'overall crime rate' comment.

NTM

coyote6

Think of the US where police are armed as standard, there was a big incident a number of years back where 2 robbers were kitted out in full body armour and with assault rifles, was extremely difficult for the police to stop them and it resulted in a prolonged shootout which resulted in numerous people being shot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout


That incident from a police perspecitve was a training and equipment issue. Officers had to borrow AR15's from a gun store! Excellent marksmanship is absolutely crucial for many reasons not the least of which is the safety of the public. Neutralizing guys armed and armored like the North Hollywood guys requires something larger in caliber than a handgun and very good marksmanship.

Dutes

theitking wrote:

I dont wanna sound TOTALLY unsympathetic but honestly....

Close down half the city because a gard got wounded!?!?!?!

I along with thousands of others sat in GRIDLOCK for over 90minutes thismorning while the guards examimined what was left of a crimescene. Eventually i gave up and turned around to go back home (facing even more traffic!!!)

If the garda had been shot dead i would understand totally closure but he's STABLE. If this was a member of the public a small dirvertion would be put in place..... but noooooooooooooo for a garda 'lets close half the city'

This morning i've been talking to people who have missed hospital appointments after been on waiting lists for MONTHS. People who have recieved warnings in work for being late. Students who missed their first leactures of the year. People who missed job interviews.

Bloody Stupid. Call me what ya want but i know there is a million other people sitting on the coast road right now who will agree half of Dublins northside should not have been closed over this incident!!!

Seriously - get a life you ar*ehole.
The world never has and never will revolve around you.

Celticfire

theitking wrote:

I dont wanna sound TOTALLY unsympathetic but honestly....

Close down half the city because a gard got wounded!?!?!?!

I along with thousands of others sat in GRIDLOCK for over 90minutes thismorning while the guards examimined what was left of a crimescene. Eventually i gave up and turned around to go back home (facing even more traffic!!!)

If the garda had been shot dead i would understand totally closure but he's STABLE. If this was a member of the public a small dirvertion would be put in place..... but noooooooooooooo for a garda 'lets close half the city'

This morning i've been talking to people who have missed hospital appointments after been on waiting lists for MONTHS. People who have recieved warnings in work for being late. Students who missed their first leactures of the year. People who missed job interviews.

Bloody Stupid. Call me what ya want but i know there is a million other people sitting on the coast road right now who will agree half of Dublins northside should not have been closed over this incident!!!

YOU sound very SIMILAR to this POSTER ...http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055155585