Should Irish be mandatory for Leaving cert?

Enemy Of Fate · 27-05-2007 10:06PM

JC 2K3 wrote:

Would you be for making Maths and English optional also?

I don't believe anything should be mandatory after the JC.HOWEVER I do feel that up until the JC, Maths should be mandatory, as should at least 1 foreign language (and no, Irish does not count).Now I DESPISE maths with all of my heart, but I do recgonise how important it is (well some of it anyways.I mean when the **** am I ever going to use differentiation) and how its used in so many different things (for instance I'm planning on doing a business course after the LC.....but one of the subjects I have to take as part of the course is financial maths, and as such I have to have a decent understanding of it).English is quite pointless also (although I don't dislike English that much, aside from the poetry), so be all means, remove it.

cson · 27-05-2007 10:14PM

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

English is quite pointless also (although I don't dislike English that much, aside from the poetry), so be all means, remove it.

If you do say so yourself! :eek:

The comedians are out in force tonight...

SamHamilton · 27-05-2007 10:17PM

English is quite pointless also (although I don't dislike English that much, aside from the poetry), so be all means, remove it

? I'm almost scared that you're being serious.

Enemy Of Fate · 27-05-2007 10:30PM

SamHamilton wrote:

? I'm almost scared that you're being serious.

I'm obviously referring to the studying of Macbeth/poetry/comparitive texts, and not the language.Can anyone honestly tell me they believe theres a point to studying those things?

cson · 27-05-2007 10:35PM

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

I'm obviously referring to the studying of Macbeth/poetry/comparitive texts, and not the language.Can anyone honestly tell me they believe theres a point to studying those things?

Appreciation of the language perhaps.

What do suggest examining instead so?

Enemy Of Fate · 27-05-2007 10:39PM

cson wrote:

Appreciation of the language perhaps.

What do suggest examining instead so?

Yeah thats the thing, unless you do something like that, theres not really anything you can test english on.....except for perhaps spelling, but most I would hope that most people would be beyond that point by 3rd or 4th class.Still though theres no denying that there is no real benefit of studying poetry, or plays, or anything like that at all.I mean its not something like business or economics, where the stuff you learn can actually be applied to something someday.

JC 2K3 · 27-05-2007 10:47PM

You don't understand the meaning of a broad education do you?

Until one goes to college, they should learn as much as they can in many different subjects. It's better for the development of the individual.

Simply teaching necessary life skills for the average person to young people would result in the underdevelopment of many potentially brilliant minds.

SamHamilton · 27-05-2007 10:49PM

I'm obviously referring to the studying of Macbeth/poetry/comparitive texts, and not the language

:eek:
That's even more worrying to me.

Can anyone honestly tell me they believe theres a point to studying those things?

Literature enriches our lives.
If we didn't think about the finer things in life we might as well revert back to the time when we were monkeys.

I'm really quite shocked that that has been said. I'm going to need to sleep and have some time to recover. I mean, honestly!:eek: I have been shaken to my core. What's the point in studying literature?! Oh my. Oh my indeed.

cson · 27-05-2007 10:57PM

SamHamilton wrote:

If we didn't think about the finer things in life we might as well revert back to the time when we were monkeys.

Thats the Darwin theory Not proven.

Although if it is true, its been quite a gentle slope for some people.

JC 2K3 · 27-05-2007 11:30PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory#Science

cocoa · 28-05-2007 08:40AM

the study of the comparative, poetry and the single text in the english course all test the student's ability to engage with a text, understand it, draw their own conclusions and then articulate those conclusions finding evidence to support them. If you don't see the point in having these skills then you are sadly short-sighted.

also don't give me that "practicality" BS about business and economics, anything useful you learn is common sense anyway.

Enemy Of Fate · 28-05-2007 09:34AM

cocoa wrote:

the study of the comparative, poetry and the single text in the english course all test the student's ability to engage with a text, understand it, draw their own conclusions and then articulate those conclusions finding evidence to support them. If you don't see the point in having these skills then you are sadly short-sighted.

And where the hell are they going to use things like that again in real life?Unless they plan on becoming a journalist/author, the things you learn in english will just be pointless to a large majority of people.

cocoa wrote:

also don't give me that "practicality" BS about business and economics, anything useful you learn is common sense anyway.

Hahahaha.Are you actually going to argue that things such as the kinked demand curve in oligiopolistic markets are common sense?If so you obviously have never done Economics (and while alot of the stuff you will learn in Business is coming sense, there is an awful lot that isn't), and as a result you shouldn't say that everything in it is just common sense, because its FAR from being true.

JC 2K3 · 28-05-2007 09:41AM

He said anything useful.

When you become an oligopolist and can apply this knowledge, let me know

cocoa · 28-05-2007 10:16AM

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

And where the hell are they going to use things like that again in real life?Unless they plan on becoming a journalist/author, the things you learn in english will just be pointless to a large majority of people.

No. Little though you may realise it, not one single person goes from JC english to LC english without their level of comprehension, coherence and literacy going up. You suggest this be abandoned, I disagree quite strongly.

Since you clearly didn't get the point the first time I said it, here it is again:
Almost every element of the english course tries to get the student to engage with a text, understand it, form their conclusions based on it and articulate these conclusions coherently with evidence. See the way I use general words like text, conclusions and evidence? That's because it's universal... In almost every profession you will have to read and draw conclusions, you're saying it's a bad thing that people get better at that?

Grudaire · 28-05-2007 10:51AM

SamHamilton wrote:

Literature enriches our lives.
If we didn't think about the finer things in life we might as well revert back to the time when we were monkeys.

I'm really quite shocked that that has been said. I'm going to need to sleep and have some time to recover. I mean, honestly!:eek: I have been shaken to my core. What's the point in studying literature?! Oh my. Oh my indeed.

Apply the same theory to Irish:

Irish literature enriches our lives.
If we didn't think about the finer things in life we might as well revert back to the time when we were monkeys.

I'm really quite shocked that that has been said. I'm going to need to sleep and have some time to recover. I mean, honestly!:eek: I have been shaken to my core. What's the point in studying Irish literature?! Oh my. Oh my indeed.

JC 2K3 · 28-05-2007 11:36AM

Cliste wrote:

Irish literature enriches our lives.

And it's true, as anyone who's studied Pádraig Ó Conaire or Seán Ó Riordáin with a bit of interest will tell you.

Nehpets · 28-05-2007 12:16PM

This is turning very stupid. SamHamilton, you don't need Irish to get a job, end of. Some jobs it will help, if you are fluent in it. Even if they change the course, if people don't want to do it they probably won't become fluent. Besides, those jobs that involve Irish will NOT be persued by people who don't like Irish. That's a simple concept to me, I don't see how you can understand it. It doesn't help your arguement at all. By the way, incase you forgot, the arguement is not about Irish as a language or it's impact or whatever, it is about whether or not Irish should be madatory for the Leaving Cert.

I've no problem doing pass Irish and don't hate it or anything but if I had a choice I wouldn't be doing it. I would be doing either less subjects (Meaning I would be doing 8 which could help significantly) or another honours subject.

cson · 28-05-2007 01:02PM

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Yeah thats the thing, unless you do something like that, theres not really anything you can test english on.....except for perhaps spelling, but most I would hope that most people would be beyond that point by 3rd or 4th class.Still though theres no denying that there is no real benefit of studying poetry, or plays, or anything like that at all.I mean its not something like business or economics, where the stuff you learn can actually be applied to something someday.

Its hard to describe what I feel after reading that...... something like this >:eek:

:mad:

Honestly, learning English is the most integral part of learning, of education, we are living in a predominately english speaking country btw!

As JC 2K3 has mentioned, education does not have to apply to real life situations, its about broadening the mind. But to suggest English doesn't apply to real life situations is laughable to say the least.

fantacan · 28-05-2007 02:58PM

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

And where the hell are they going to use things like that again in real life?Unless they plan on becoming a journalist/author, the things you learn in english will just be pointless to a large majority of people.

Um, how about learning the skill of conversation and debate; Something everyone encounters many many times in their adult life. Analysing poetry and texts in English/Irish teaches one to understand and discuss the subject matter of a wide variety of topics. To say these skills are pointless is extremely narrow-minded and childish.

Can't help notice that this thread has gone just a bit off topic :rolleyes:

Lucas10101 · 28-05-2007 03:57PM

That;s why the LC course is moving towards 40% Oral. Allocating 25% for Listening, and 35% for composing and writing stories and essays to learn more languge and write it with good vocabulay.

Fantacan your're right in that respect also, Poetry and analysing texts should only be specifically higher level as many people doing ordinary are already bad at irish.

SamHamilton · 28-05-2007 04:43PM

SamHamilton, you don't need Irish to get a job,

Quote where I said you NEED Irish to get any job. Irish opens a lot of doors to many jobs. I've shown how through the examples of my relatives. If you're going to put words in my mouth stop refering to me.

SamHamilton · 28-05-2007 04:53PM

Thats the Darwin theory Not proven.

Although if it is true, its been quite a gentle slope for some people.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 28-05-2007 06:11PM

fantacan wrote:

Can't help notice that this thread has gone just a bit off topic :rolleyes:

Yeah, It was clear the Pro choice-ers won but the Irish facists kept posting & most of us had enough. It had to go somewhere.

JC 2K3 · 28-05-2007 06:24PM

^Indeed :rolleyes:

Meh, I'm gonna stop debating in this topic now. Funny thing is it if it ever becomes optional it won't be for many years. So regardless of the "a subject is only useful if it has a practical application" stance of the opposition, it's not like it's going to become optional anytime soon anyway.

lilmizzme · 28-05-2007 06:49PM

^

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the final word!!

Enemy Of Fate · 28-05-2007 06:53PM

JC 2K3 wrote:

When you become an oligopolist and can apply this knowledge, let me know

Will do!!!Anyways a knowledge of economics will benefit pretty much ANYONE whose planning on getting into any sort of business, so yes, you learn extremely useful things by doing Economics.

cocoa wrote:

In almost every profession you will have to read and draw conclusions, you're saying it's a bad thing that people get better at that?

Absolutely not, i'm saying it shouldn't be forced onto people.However as I said I quite like English (aside from Poetry, the most pointless thing in the history of the world), and even if it was an optional subject i'd still choose it.

Nehpets wrote:

you don't need Irish to get a job, end of.

Exactly.

fantacan wrote:

Analysing poetry and texts in English/Irish teaches one to understand and discuss the subject matter of a wide variety of topics. To say these skills are pointless is extremely narrow-minded and childish.

Analyasing poetry does nothing but annoy and irritate me, and provides no benefits whatsoever.I mean why the **** do we have to write pages of crap analysing a poem?I mean its so ridiculous.Did you ever think the poet just stuck a word in so the damn thing would rhyme?It doesn't have a ****ing hidden meaning dammit!!!

PurpleFistMixer · 28-05-2007 06:59PM

Just because it annoys you, it doesn't mean it has no benefits... personally, I like poetry and enjoy analysing it.

fantacan · 28-05-2007 08:20PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Yeah, It was clear the Pro choice-ers won but the Irish facists kept posting & most of us had enough.

In your choice. I don't think either side is moving on this topic. Pro Gaeilge all the way for me though!

Nehpets · 28-05-2007 08:20PM

SamHamilton wrote:

Quote where I said you NEED Irish to get any job. Irish opens a lot of doors to many jobs. I've shown how through the examples of my relatives. If you're going to put words in my mouth stop refering to me.

What you quoted me on, was me telling you something. That is hardly putting words in your mouth. I told you that because you constantly talked about Irish getting jobs because of knowledge of the language. "Having Irish means it might be easier to find a job.", "With Irish you can make your way into the competitive jobs". I just found your point invalid because you don't need Irish to get a job.

Anyway, to wrap up my arguement I'll reason that Irish is benificial and worthy of compulsory status for many reasons but only until Junior Cert. After that, I think people should be given a choice (and all other subjects bar English and Maths). I think one langauge (not including English) from Europe should be compulsory (this can be Irish, French, Spanish, German).

So that means everyone would do Maths, English, EuroLanguage and three or four other subjects.

tolosenc · 28-05-2007 09:33PM

Nehpets, why one rule for Maths and English and another for Irish?

I feel the same about English as many of you do about Irish. There's no way it should be forced on us after JC. It serves no purpose, whereas Irish gives you the experience of studying a language (minus of course the literature, which I am personally in favour of doing away with), a skill that can aid in the acquisition of other languages.
Maths, for those who achieved high grades in Honours JC, is also pretty pointless for the rest of your life.

Do away with all 3, or keep all 3. Personally I'd keep em, or have kids choose 2 of the 3 to pursue to LC.

Should Irish be mandatory for Leaving cert?

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