Should Irish be mandatory for Leaving cert?

PurpleFistMixer

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Hell this is a website for Ireland!Does it even have a board for irish?And if it does, is it ever used?!

...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=31
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=904

Naikon

Irish has never been and never will become "our langauge" its not really viable anymore in modern society.

madgal

Naikon wrote:

Irish has never been and never will become "our langauge" its not really viable anymore in modern society.

Here Here.
I'm all against it. Not only is a rather bland subject *If you can't speak it properly your hardly going to enjoy it* but also the fact that someone with a vague sense of humor choose crappy stuff to put on the course.

Its way way way to detailed, and As I'm moving to Northern Ireland, where it shall never become a first language up there, I don't need it.

Enemy Of Fate

PurpleFistMixer wrote:

...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=31
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=904

OK well the first link is just laughable (theres only 3 or 4 topics with more than 10 posts), but the 2nd one is quite surprising.One thing though.Doesn't ''Teach na nGaelt'' mean house of the mad?Or something like that?

SamHamilton

And that's another point. Irish does promote equality.

OK now you are SERIOUSLY clutching at straws.How the hell does Irish promote equality?!

Nice the way that's all you chose to quote. I answered that question right after what you chose to take from my post.

Everyone in the country has a better chance of hearing and reading Irish than other languages. Not everyone can rely on their mommy to pay the hundreds needed to go abroad or to do a eurolanguages course - and that is needed to have a chance at getting an A in a language. Whereas, if people work hard enough, they can get an A in Irish, everyone. Flick on Tv and you'll hear Irish, drive a few kilometres to the Gaeltacht and you can hear and speak it. You will have much the same advantage as everyone else if you are poor. Money has nothing to do with obtaining an A grade in Irish while it has a lot to do with obtaining an A grade in French.

Jurassic_chili

i think it should be mandatory because we as irish people need to keep the language alive!

PurpleFistMixer

Yes, there was debate over what to call it. It was originally called "Tar éis na hUaire" but that wasn't liked very much due to being a literal translation and whatnot.

As for laughable, look here... the Irish board is second most popular, beaten only by English, and far ahead of the rest.
So how about doing some research before making sweeping statements? : )

SamHamilton

Irish has never been and never will become "our langauge" its not really viable anymore in modern society.

But if you have Irish you are at a huge advantage. There are lots of really good jobs going for those with the Irish language, jobs that foreigners can't take, jobs that are for the Irish. I'm not racist but in a few years time there will be huge competition between us and foreigners for jobs. It will be our knowledge of the Irish language that will give us the upper hand.

lilmizzme

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Doubtful.I don't know of anyone who does both languages, whose french/german/italian is worse than their Irish.

My french is a lot worse than my Irish, ditto most of my friends....

I think it should be optional after the Junior Cert, an this is coming from someone with a near fluency of the language. I can understand other views of why people would hate it so much, and its clear that the majority of people who want to keep Irish mandatory are the ones who are doing well in the subject.

I don't think forcing the language into students heads is any way to keep the love of a language alive. At least if it was optional after the Junior Cert, you would have classes of Leaving Cert students genuinely interested in learning Irish. The classes wuyld move at a much quicker pace too. I don't agree having Irish as a compulsary subject for entry into the NUI's either. Just because you don't speak your language, shouldn't make you less eligible for entry to an Irish university, nor does it make you less of an Irish person than someone who is fluent. Fair enough, the language offers a link to culture and heritage, but so does music, dancing and traditions. The language, like the other Celtic languages, will eventually die out, despite it being taught in schools or not.

I personally love the language, but I would be worried about continuing to study it after school. Apart from translating or teaching, or maybe working in the Irish media, what other jobs are there for students with an Irish degree? Could you work abroad? I doubt it...why force a language, or any subject on someone who has no interest nor plans to continue with it after school.

Mandatory Irish for the LC isnt going to keep the language alive past its expiry date. Rather, I think, it may serve to kill it faster.

Rant over!

Nehpets

SamHamilton wrote:

But if you have Irish you are at a huge advantage. There are lots of really good jobs going for those with the Irish language, jobs that foreigners can't take, jobs that are for the Irish. I'm not racist but in a few years time there will be huge competition between us and foreigners for jobs. It will be our knowledge of the Irish language that will give us the upper hand.

No it will be down to how good or specialised a person is in chosen career. Knowledge of Irish won't matter at all for jobs that have nothing to do with it. Also, what about the people who don't plan to stay in Ireland?

lilmizzme

SamHamilton wrote:

But if you have Irish you are at a huge advantage. There are lots of really good jobs going for those with the Irish language, jobs that foreigners can't take, jobs that are for the Irish. I'm not racist but in a few years time there will be huge competition between us and foreigners for jobs. It will be our knowledge of the Irish language that will give us the upper hand.

What jobs would these be?Showing tourists round the Alliwee Caves?

Bottle_of_Smoke

JC 2K3 wrote:

And you wouldn't like to move away from that? The UK has had so many social problems in recent years and is becoming devoid of any unique sense of identity.

I accept that LC Irish as it is now is not encouraging the language in anyway as well as it should, but until there are systems in place that ensure Irish children have a better grasp of the language(I mean in all honestly, it's a disgrace that they're not fluent by the end of 6th class), I believe it should remain mandatory.

I'm not too bothered about moving away from it myself, I like foreigners! I honestly believe the social problems are coming from people who are paranoid about losing their identity. Look at the Love Ulster riots.

Anyway even if I did want to move away from it, having it mandatory for leaving cert would not help my cause & you haven't provided an argument to suggest that it would, you just keep saying "I believe"

Very good post from Lilmizzme there - have a read JC2K3!

PS Sam Hamilton I'm rather unhappy you didn't repond to any of my critiscm of your arguments!

SamHamilton

No it will be down to how good or specialised a person is in chosen career.

And the people at the top of university classes in the future are going to be foreigners. They will work for it more than we will because they will want it more because the Irish feel so secure about their economy. They will be at the top of the list for jobs - then the Irish. But the hundreds of jobs produced by the Irish will be ours only.

Knowledge of Irish won't matter at all for jobs that have nothing to do with it. Also, what about the people who don't plan to stay in Ireland

It may not seem to be integral for a...doctor say but it will definately have advantages. My friend is trining to be a doctor. She has very good Irish. A patient came in and had no English. She was the only one able to help her and now anytime an Irish speaking patient comes in she's called to help them. She gains loads of experience because usually you're competing with dozens of other interns to learn from a patient. So, it's an advantage.

People who don't intend to stay in Ireland...they are the minority. It is only natural that, in a case like this, the majority should rule.

What jobs would these be?Showing tourists round the Alliwee Caves?

My sister is working as a researcher for a television company.
My aunty is working as a producer for a broadcasting company.
My cousins proficiency in Irish allowed her to work her way through Ros na Rún - TG4 - RTE where she now works on the Late Late Show.
My aunty works with a publishing company because of her Irish.
My Uncle works as a sound engineer with TG4.
A lot of my friends work as actors in Ros na Rún and Aifric.
My sister's boyfriend works as a camera man with an Irish tv company and has loads of opportunities all over Ireland now after gaining experience there.
Should I go on?

lilmizzme

SamHamilton wrote:

My sister is working as a researcher for a television company.
My aunty is working as a producer for a broadcasting company.
My cousins proficiency in Irish allowed her to work her way through Ros na Rún - TG4 - RTE where she now works on the Late Late Show.
My aunty works with a publishing company because of her Irish.
My Uncle works as a sound engineer with TG4.
A lot of my friends work as actors in Ros na Rún and Aifric.
My sister's boyfriend works as a camera man with an Irish tv company and has loads of opportunities all over Ireland now after gaining experience there.
Should I go on?

Point taken, but as I said, apart from translating, teaching or the Irish media, what jobs are there out there for a person with an Irish degree, that another compentent "foreigener" couldn't do? I don't see an industry, apart from what you've mentioned, where having fluency in Irish would give you an advantage.

I doubt an irish degree would hold much standing in a company abroad..

luckat

Irish has certainly been useful to me; it warms my heart.

But perhaps this isn't necessary. In fact, after listening to Tony Gregory's smarmy, discourteous answer to a polite question from a consultant ("Would you be willing to say to Bertie that you'll go into government only on condition that the country has a single-tier health system" was the question), perhaps it's even a disadvantage.

I left school unable to wire a house (or even a plug), or plumb one, or build one, or to do woodwork or cook a good meal.

I can read a map, thanks to geography classes; I can stagger along in French when I'm in Paris - though mainly not from school but from grinds. I remember enough Latin to help with derivations. Maths just glided over me like a ship passing over an unnoticing shoal of fish. English - the grammar and parsing were good; the study of literature was actively bad. History - boring, boring; I love history now, but social history, not the political history we learned in school. The Irish we learned was political too - Peig's whining and endless difficult grammar, rather than conversation and nursery rhymes and good writing.

Irish is obviously useful if it's taught integrally - I know a bunch of people who went to Gaelscoileanna and they pick up languages like *that* and are mostly very bright.

cson

SamHamilton wrote:

Money has nothing to do with obtaining an A grade in Irish while it has a lot to do with obtaining an A grade in French.

I think you've established a new benchmark in ridiculousness with that post.

SamHamilton

PS Sam Hamilton I'm rather unhappy you didn't repond to any of my critiscm of your arguments!

Sorry, there were loads of other stuff I had to say.

So...

Are you for real? There's so many foreigners...&bars in Dublin. Everyone has an opportunity to experience any language.

Dublin. Yes. And the rest of the country?

Why another language? If you hate learning Irish, chances are that you'll hate learning...Spanish, for example.

Untrue, when you're learning Spanish/Italien/French/Polish you think "well this is hard but I'll be able to go to Madrid/wherever & chat up those gorgeous Spaniards/whoever, or even order a meal"

Gaelige & North Donegal just don't have the same appeal. You have to accept a lot of people hate learning Irish because it's pointless. Any benefits can be achieved with another language.

Answered this earlier but to be fair it wasn't directed to your arguments.

I went on a trip to Paris recently. Didn't speak one word of French. No tourist does. It is a lot easier to go to a place like the Gaeltacht.
It's a short journey away
People feel a lot less anxious/homesick because they're not in an entirely different country, most times away from their parents
People have the option of speaking English if they feel they are not being understood

And the list goes on and on. If a student in LC went to France who wanted to learn more French, they would be unable to use their French with the French people because the standard just wouldn't be high enough. They would get frustrated and feel alienated. So much easier to integrate yourself into a Gaeltacht with people you know will be able to understand you.

Even though you're are right saying that a foreign language has that kind of appeal, this wears off - quickly. I love French and I'm very good at it but I find studying it has little to do with France! It's frustrating studying a language that you aren't in contact with as regularly as you are Irish. I throw on TV5 every now and again but it's foreign and has nothing to do with my country. On TG4 I can find things I can relate to and things are, as a result, more interesting.

SamHamilton

Money has nothing to do with obtaining an A grade in Irish while it has a lot to do with obtaining an A grade in French.


I think you've established a new benchmark in ridiculousness with that post.

But it's true! I'm looking for an A1 in French but that's because I've invested a lot of money into it. I went to a Eurolanguages course and then worked there every summer. Some people live in France for the summer to improve their French and it's integral to getting an A!
Irish though, you can't throw money at the subject to get an A. Time and effort is the only way to increase your grades. That's fair.

SamHamilton

Point taken, but as I said, apart from translating, teaching or the Irish media, what jobs are there out there for a person with an Irish degree, that another compentent "foreigener" couldn't do? I don't see an industry, apart from what you've mentioned, where having fluency in Irish would give you an advantage.

Yes apart from translating, teaching, researching, journalism, camera work, sound engineering, producing, tourism,...what other jobs could one find?:rolleyes:

cson

SamHamilton wrote:

But it's true!

Er, no its not. You can get an A in anything by throwing money at it but similarily you can get an A in anything by having an exam strategy and working hard. French is no different. In fact bar the tape I would rate the french paper easier than the Irish paper.

SamHamilton

Er, no its not. You can get an A in anything by throwing money at it but similarily you can get an A in anything by having an exam strategy and working hard. French is no different. In fact bar the tape I would rate the french paper easier than the Irish paper.

To excel in French, to get the A, you will need to speak the language with French people and listen to French people speaking the language. In Irish the same is true but it's a lot cheaper in Irish. Meeting French people = going to France or a French college = $$$$$. Meeting Irish-speaking people = car drive, going to see your cousins in the Gaeltacht = $.

cson

SamHamilton wrote:

To excel in French, to get the A, you will need to speak the language with French people and listen to French people speaking the language. In Irish the same is true but it's a lot cheaper in Irish. Meeting French people = going to France or a French college = $$$$$. Meeting Irish-speaking people = car drive, going to see your cousins in the Gaeltacht = $.

You should probably lay off the acid before your exams. It won't do you much good.

SamHamilton

I think you've established a new benchmark in ridiculousness with that post.

You should probably lay off the acid before your exams. It won't do you much good

Posts with comments like these make you seem like a moron. Is it rude to ask that you could treat me like a human being? If you disagree with me, that's fine but instead of insulting me, say why you disagree with me, please.

My points are valid. I've backed them up, logically instead of just laying them down there are insulting anyone who disagrees with me without giving a reason.

Nehpets

SamHamilton wrote:

And the people at the top of university classes in the future are going to be foreigners. They will work for it more than we will because they will want it more because the Irish feel so secure about their economy. They will be at the top of the list for jobs - then the Irish. But the hundreds of jobs produced by the Irish will be ours only.

People who don't intend to stay in Ireland...they are the minority. It is only natural that, in a case like this, the majority should rule.

Um.. I don't know how you can say that. Are you generalising and saying all Irish people are lazy and not hardworking and all of the foreign people will be much better?

Also, majority rules? Someone pointed out that far more people do pass. I don't think this is down to ability as someone also said that honours Irish is do-able if you put effort in. In that case, the majority probably would choose to make it optional.

If we take it as that, then I agree, majority should rule.

madgal

You have more of chance of getting a job with polish in this country rather than Irish.

cson

SamHamilton wrote:

Posts with comments like these make you seem like a moron. Is it rude to ask that you could treat me like a human being? If you disagree with me, that's fine but instead of insulting me, say why you disagree with me, please.

My points are valid. I've backed them up, logically instead of just laying them down there are insulting anyone who disagrees with me without giving a reason.

Look, you're making highly illogical and nonsensical points - "all the top people at the top of uni classes are going to be foreigners", "You have to spend lots of money on french to get an A wheras with Irish you don't" > See thats the kind of stuff which knocks your credibility. If you start talking some sense I'll have a reasoned debate with you. Until then...........lay off the acid.

SamHamilton

Um.. I don't know how you can say that. Are you generalising and saying all Irish people are lazy and not hardworking and all of the foreign people will be much better?

But see thats just stupid.What if someone doesn't feel like wasting time learning Irish, and instead spends the time studying other subjects.

The Irish, as this thread revels, don't seem to want to put in the hard work. Yes Irish is hard but we need it to get the course we want but some people just dont

feel like wasting time learning Irish

even though it could mean the difference between going to college and not.
People who are coming to our country are choosing to come to the country. There are jobs here that they would love to have and they will work that extra bit harder to get them because of their backgrounds. Look at The Young Scientist of the Year awards for proof.

The BT Young Scientist of the Year 2007 is Somalian born Abdusalam Abubakar

A lot of foreigners are winning prizes in the competition.

Fair enough it is a bit of a generalisation but it's not one without reason. There is a truth to it.

JC 2K3

lilmizzme wrote:

At least if it was optional after the Junior Cert, you would have classes of Leaving Cert students genuinely interested in learning Irish.

No one takes higher level without an interest in the subject. This already exists.

lilmizzme wrote:

I don't agree having Irish as a compulsary subject for entry into the NUI's either. Just because you don't speak your language, shouldn't make you less eligible for entry to an Irish university, nor does it make you less of an Irish person than someone who is fluent.

Needing Irish is more an intellectual than a cultural necessity.

University isn't a right, it's a privilage, and universities are fully entitled to discriminate on the basis of intelligence and to define what they consider "intelligence". They choose to include Irish in their criteria for defining intelligence.

Perhaps they choose to keep Irish compulsory as Irish is generally perceived as a difficult subject that requires a challenge? Same goes for English and Maths.

lilmizzme wrote:

why force a language, or any subject on someone who has no interest nor plans to continue with it after school.

Because at 16-19 we're too young to specialise. The LC favours a broad education rather than a specialised one like the A-Levels in the UK.

I won't be needing Irish, English, French, History, Chemistry and most likely won't need most of Physics, Maths or Applied Maths in the course I'm pursuing(Computer Science). Sure why should I have to do my LC in the first place? :rolleyes:

lilmizzme wrote:

Mandatory Irish for the LC isnt going to keep the language alive past its expiry date. Rather, I think, it may serve to kill it faster.

Nah, it won't kill it faster. It has an important place in the lives of every Irish person(ie. they have to study it for an important exam - the LC). It's not necessarily making people love it, but it makes them know at least enough for a basic conversation.

Irish for LC can be made optional when Irish is much more widely spoken(don't say that'll never happen, it's happening as we speak), but until then it's the only, if imperfect, way of keeping it in some form as an important part of everyone's life.

cson

SamHamilton wrote:

The Irish, as this thread revels, don't seem to want to put in the hard work. Yes Irish is hard but we need it to get the course we want but some people just dont even though it could mean the difference between going to college and not.

Actually if you look at the figures Irish is amongst the 'easiest' subjects to get a C3 in higher.

Donald-Duck

SamHamilton wrote:

#

Not true. I wanted to study Latin. In fact I intend to study it in university next year. The problem is, because it's not mandatory, small (enough) schools like mine that are scattered all over the country won't have the option to teach a lot of non-mandatory subjects. Many people would lose out. People who may want to study Irish just won't have the option.

Bull****. Thats like saying if maths was no longer compulsory that not every school would be able to teach it.
Plus, would smaller schools around the country not be more likely to be able to teach is as Irish is more accepted in the country than in Dublin?

JC2K, you'll be needing your maths in computer science.

Yes apart from translating, teaching, researching, journalism, camera work, sound engineering, producing, tourism,...what other jobs could one find?

How does Irish give you an advantage in any of these other than teaching, which only applies to primary teaching. He did not say that you couldn't find jobs, but that it gave no advantage to getting them. Selective quoting

The Irish, as this thread revels, don't seem to want to put in the hard work. Yes Irish is hard but we need it to get the course we want but some people just dont
Quote:
feel like wasting time learning Irish
even though it could mean the difference between going to college and not.
People who are coming to our country are choosing to come to the country. There are jobs here that they would love to have and they will work that extra bit harder to get them because of their backgrounds. Look at The Young Scientist of the Year awards for proof.

The fact that only a d3 in ordinary level is needed to do almost any course but primary teaching means that people are just going to do ordinary, and get their d3.