Should Irish be mandatory for Leaving cert?

SamHamilton

Look, you're making highly illogical and nonsensical points -..."You have to spend lots of money on french to get an A wheras with Irish you don't"

I already stated twice why I believe this to be true and what I said was not

illogical and nonsensical

.

You can get an A in anything by throwing money at it but similarily you can get an A in anything by having an exam strategy and working hard. French is no different. In fact bar the tape I would rate the french paper easier than the Irish paper.

This is not true and it shows in the results. Not everyone in Yeats and the Institute get A's even though they throw money at their subjects. In French though, money plays a HUGE part. I've already explained why. There are three people in my class who are going for A's: The french student, the half-French student, and me. I spent money on eurolanguages and worked there for a few summers. the others in my class, while they can write brilliantly just don't have what it takes to get the A due to their oral and aural performances. They didn't have the luxury to pay for trips abroad or French courses and I am in no doubt that this is what is costing them the A.

With irish, everyone is in the same boat, even the galetacht students. I'm from the Gaeltacht but I grew up without irish. The others in my class have the oral and aural part but are worst than most Dubliners in the writing and grammar. It's a level playing field.

Donald-Duck

cson wrote:

Actually if you look at the figures Irish is amongst the 'easiest' subjects to get a C3 in higher.

So does honours maths IIRC. All that means is that only people who are good at it keep it up.

JC 2K3

Donald-Duck wrote:

JC2K, you'll be needing your maths in computer science.

Lol, some stats maybe, but on the whole almost all of the LC Maths course is irrelevant to CS.

SamHamilton

Bull****. Thats like saying if maths was no longer compulsory that not every school would be able to teach it.

No it's not. If it's not mandatory, it means it's less likely to be taught. take my school. A lot of Medicine and science subjects require two sciences. My school only provides either Biology or Ag. Science. We can't do both and there's no physics or chemistry. There's only French, no Spanish or German. There's no History. Basically, there's just the bare minimum. If Irish wasn't needed it would probably be thrown out.

How does Irish give you an advantage in any of these other than teaching, which only applies to primary teaching. He did not say that you couldn't find jobs, but that it gave no advantage to getting them.

With Irish you can make your way into the competitive jobs - journalism, media etc - by starting in a smaller company - Ros na Rún, O Teilifís, Foinse - gaining invaluable experience there and then finding your way into the places you want with that experience. it's awful hard to walk into a journalism job these days, having Irish allow you to find experience that will put you ahead of the others who can't get jobs in Irish companies.

Donald-Duck

SamHamilton wrote:

No it's not. If it's not mandatory, it means it's less likely to be taught. take my school. A lot of Medicine and science subjects require two sciences. My school only provides either Biology or Ag. Science. We can't do both and there's no physics or chemistry. There's only French, no Spanish or German. There's no History. Basically, there's just the bare minimum. If Irish wasn't needed it would probably be thrown out.

You're helping prove my point, not many schools in Dublin would teach Ag Science as far as I know. Irish is more associated with the country so thats where it would stay strong.
Also, some colleges take geography as a science subject, does your school do that?

With Irish you can make your way into the competitive jobs - journalism, media etc - by starting in a smaller company - Ros na Rún, O Teilifís, Foinse - gaining invaluable experience there and then finding your way into the places you want with that experience. it's awful hard to walk into a journalism job these days, having Irish allow you to find experience that will put you ahead of the others who can't get jobs in Irish companies.

Thats a good point, and I know nothing about journalism so I'm not going to argue it.

cson

SamHamilton wrote:

I already stated twice why I believe this to be true and what I said was not .



This is not true and it shows in the results. Not everyone in Yeats and the Institute get A's even though they throw money at their subjects. In French though, money plays a HUGE part. I've already explained why. There are three people in my class who are going for A's: The french student, the half-French student, and me. I spent money on eurolanguages and worked there for a few summers. the others in my class, while they can write brilliantly just don't have what it takes to get the A due to their oral and aural performances. They didn't have the luxury to pay for trips abroad or French courses and I am in no doubt that this is what is costing them the A.

With irish, everyone is in the same boat, even the galetacht students. I'm from the Gaeltacht but I grew up without irish. The others in my class have the oral and aural part but are worst than most Dubliners in the writing and grammar. It's a level playing field.

No it doesn't. Watch TV5, read french wiki and french websites, join a french forum and write french, practise speaking with your classmates...... You don't 'have' to travel to France in order to get an A.

Honestly, go back and have a good read of your posts and ask yourself if they make sense.

@Donald-Duck: Yeah I know that'd be the case but all the same 83% of the students who took HL Irish last year got a C3 or better.

aidan24326

Irish should NOT be compulsory for Leaving Cert. Compulsory up to Junior Cert. yes, but Leaving Cert. no. There is no argument for it being compulsory at LC level. None. end of.

SamHamilton

Also, some colleges take geography as a science subject, does your school do that?

No. We have a choice between French and geography. Since most places need French...

You're helping prove my point, not many schools in Dublin would teach Ag Science as far as I know. Irish is more associated with the country so thats where it would stay strong.

We live in "the country" if you could call it that but no one in our class farms or has the intention to! We do it for the same reason a lot of the "really good" schools do it: it's an easy subject to get an A in.

You are right though saying that our school would keep Irish because we're smack bang in the middle of the Gaeltacht but this wouldn't be the case with many schools.

And by the way, when I said the country earier, I meant Ireland not every county but Dublin.

SamHamilton

No it doesn't. Watch TV5, read french wiki and french websites, join a french forum and write french, practise speaking with your classmates...... You don't 'have' to travel to France in order to get an A.

Oh right! You've cracked it! Genius! We can learn how to speak French perfectly by speaking with our other classmates who have as weak a level as we do!:rolleyes:

As I've stated EARLIER - maybe YOU should have a read of my past posts - TV5 isn't as good as TG4 for the Irish student. Plus you can't exactly speak to a tv.

Donald-Duck

SamHamilton wrote:

No. We have a choice between French and geography. Since most places need French...



We live in "the country" if you could call it that but no one in our class farms or has the intention to! We do it for the same reason a lot of the "really good" schools do it: it's an easy subject to get an A in.

You are right though saying that our school would keep Irish because we're smack bang in the middle of the Gaeltacht but this wouldn't be the case with many schools.

And by the way, when I said the country earier, I meant Ireland not every county but Dublin.

I did geography, I didn't plan on being a geologist. I did Accounting and I've no intention of being an accountant. Ag. Science is a subject available to you, you don't have to be a farmer to do it.

I'm just using Dublin because I live here so I have a slightly better idea about what the schools in the areas teach rather than if I choose cork/galway/limerick city.

cson

SamHamilton wrote:

Oh right! You've cracked it! Genius! We can learn how to speak French perfectly by speaking with our other classmates who have as weak a level as we do!:rolleyes:

As I've stated EARLIER - maybe YOU should have a read of my past posts - TV5 isn't as good as TG4 for the Irish student. Plus you can't exactly speak to a tv.

As far as I know the Dept of Education French Dept. don't actually require fluency for you to get an A. Fancy that!

I've read your posts and they make no sense. Your arguments are based on warped logic, that 'spending more money to get an A in french than in Irish' thing is ridiculous.

This is getting off topic anyway, original question was "Should Irish be compulsory" and I've given my opinion a few pages back.

SamHamilton

As far as I know the Dept of Education French Dept. don't actually require fluency for you to get an A. Fancy that!

They don't need fluency but they require a very high level, impossible to obtain without being around French people speaking the language for a significant period of time.

Anyway, I agree this is getting off topic. So, instead of saying why we should keep Irish, why don't you, cson, give us five GOOD reasons why Irish shouldn't be mandatory.

cson

SamHamilton wrote:

They don't need fluency but they require a very high level, impossible to obtain without being around French people speaking the language for a significant period of time.

In your esteemed opinion.

SamHamilton wrote:

Anyway, I agree this is getting off topic. So, instead of saying why we should keep Irish, why don't you, cson, give us five GOOD reasons why Irish shouldn't be mandatory.

If you'd bothered your arse to read any of my posts concerning the OP's question you'd have my views on the matter. I actually argued for it.

SamHamilton

Oh, your insults and your "illogical and nonsensical" arguments must have distracted me.

cson

dan719

Wow this thread is becoming remarkably wingy.

Firstly I don't do Irish, so my opinion does not merit much attention on this issue, but I don't believe any subject should be compulsory at leaving cert level. I favour the specilisation at which JC 2K3 is so aghast.

I am shocked Sam by your claims that 'one has to throw money at a euro language to get an A in it'. I disagree totally, I have never been to Germany, or eurolanguages but hope for at least an A2 in the exam. The one guy who got an A1 last year had never been to germany or eurolanguages either-he just worked hard. Basically your point reeks of BS.

Also I know you want to study Latin next year(with english lit of course) but I don't think you should complain about not having the option of taking it to l.c. My school doesn't teach applied maths. So we do it ourselves. I think that if someone really wants to learn something they will, and that is why Irish would not 'die out' if were no longer compulsory.

fantacan

cson wrote:

Thats a rather extremist view. Did you vote Sinn Fein by any chance?

Actually no, Fianna Fail. Are you claiming it's extremist to have an attatchment to culture?

Nephets wrote:

Making Irish optional for the LC course will hardly damage it. The people who like it will choose it and the people who don't (the people who aren't going to use it again) won't. It's a simple solution really.

At least getting everyone to do it will give everyone a taste of it. There's loads of subjects that people may not hav initially chosen and that they then realised they liked. Its worth giving the chance to people if it means more people may speak it.

woop wrote:

for those of you who say but Ill never use it, cop on to yourselves, theres many people who study german and other subjects and never use them later in life thats the nature of our educational system, for example you must do in depth study of English pros in order to be a doctor when will a doctor ever be required to quote King Lear!

Excellent point!

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

I've already dealt with this point.If thats the attitude you want to talk, why don't you just go out, work in the fields all day, and then earn 4 shillings for your hard work?Because poverty and agricultural go hand in hand with who we are and where we have come from.

Umm, maybe I'll get a career in irish media or get a well paid job in Brussells or maybe a well paid translator who can work from home for all my life. That's the typical ignorant attitude that needs to be changed through a more inclusive course.

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Well that is just foolish on every level.What happens if your parents never did Irish

If your parents are Irish and sat their leaving cert here then there is no way they have not done Irish (except in rare exceptions). If they aren't Irish then i can accept that it mightn't be as easy and am willing to accept that.

aidan24326 wrote:

Irish should NOT be compulsory for Leaving Cert. Compulsory up to Junior Cert. yes, but Leaving Cert. no. There is no argument for it being compulsory at LC level. None. end of.

What a great point. Perhaps you'd like to provide so reasons for this single-minded argument!


I've said it before. You can argue all you want but as it stands the subject is mandatory and you have to sit it for your leaving cert. You can bitch and whine all you want but it's a fact of life. Deal with it.


Also, shouldn't we all be studying or something. I mean Gaeilge Páipéar 1 is only 10 days away!

SamHamilton

Also I know you want to study Latin next year(with english lit of course) but I don't think you should complain about not having the option of taking it to l.c. My school doesn't teach applied maths. So we do it ourselves. I think that if someone really wants to learn something they will, and that is why Irish would not 'die out' if were no longer compulsory.

Hey Dan719!:) I'm not complaining about not having the opportunity to study Latin, I was illustrating that when a subject is not mandatory there is a slim chance of it being taught at smaller schools. As for me, I've booked a few latin books from Amazon and intend to learn it over the summer!:) Unfortunately, (or forunately, probably fortunately!) not everyoneis like you and me and if a subject, whether it's Irish, Latin or Applied Maths, is not placed in front of them they probably won't take the time out to learn it.

cson

fantacan wrote:

Actually no, Fianna Fail. Are you claiming it's extremist to have an attatchment to culture?

Yes. If you're using "this is what the men in 1916 dies for! We can't let Irish die!"

Afaik it was 1922 when we got independence and the men who died in 1916 were primarily fighting for said ndependence. But thats a debate for another thread.

SamHamilton

I am shocked Sam by your claims that 'one has to throw money at a euro language to get an A in it'. I disagree totally, I have never been to Germany, or eurolanguages but hope for at least an A2 in the exam. The one guy who got an A1 last year had never been to germany or eurolanguages either-he just worked hard. Basically your point reeks of BS.

I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who got an A in French without going to eurolanguages or going on an exchange or spending a significant amount of time in France.
I can't speak for German, but, in French, there's a lot you just can't learn in class, that isn't even taught in class but that is expected in an A candidate. That's my view. I won't force it on anyone and it's the last time I'll say anything about it. Promise.:)

dan719

Es waere besser!lol Yes i see your point about the language, but i personally feel it has a lot to do with exam technique but anyway. Glad to hear you are getting a headstart on the latin though.:D

woop

Quote:
Originally Posted by woop
for example you must do in depth study of English pros in order to be a doctor when will a doctor ever be required to quote King Lear!

Originally posted by bottle_of_smoke

Nonsense. You only have to achieve a C3 grade in ordinary English to be eligible to apply to be a doctor.

lets not get silly here mate, I know 6 people who studied to be doctors, five of them got it and none of them attempted to take on an extra subjects in order to aim for getting a c3 in English, they all tried to maximise theyre English result, which meant less overall work, and this in turn meant that they had more time to concentrate theyre study on other subjects and achieve that 590 points!

JC 2K3

dan719 wrote:

I favour the specilisation at which JC 2K3 is so aghast.

Do you honestly think the average 16/17 year old is mature enough to choose what they want to specialise in? Something that will no doubt shape the rest of their lives as specialising at such an early age would mean first year in college courses would be a lot higher.

You yourself have changed your mind on what course you want to do. Imagine if at 16/17 you'd chosen only Maths and Physics subjects as you reckoned you wanted to pursue Theoretical Physics in college. You would not then be able to change your mind at this stage. English Lit and Latin are totally different to TP.

JC 2K3

Donald-Duck wrote:

Irish is more associated with the country so thats where it would stay strong.

Maybe 10, 20 years ago. Certainly not today.

dan719

I havent actually changed it. I said I was contemplating it. and who said anything about Latin? That is Sam not me. And in the UK, except for sciene courses there is no need for specific A-Levels, no doubt a specialised leaving cert would work in a similar vein.

JC 2K3

Sorry, misread the post. You siad you were contemplating changing in anotehr topic, however.

And the requirements aren't really the issue, the issue is that with specialisation one becomes too narrow minded too early on. For example you might never have realised your interest in English(you were thinking of changing to English right?) had you specialised in a narrow range of Maths/Physics subjects.

dan719

This raises the questio as to what is education. Is education what you learn at school? Or is it an individual journey of exploration, although I would quite happily specialise in maths and physics in school, my interests as a whole are very broad and include art, literature, and attempting to drink at least once every alcoholic beverage in existance. As such I believe that while specilisation would make school easy for me as far as exams are concered, it would not harm my own individual holistic approach to knowledge.

SamHamilton

To answer the question at hand, I propose that we should make a list of reasons why Irish should or should not be mandatory. Nice and short bullet points. I'll start.:D

Pros

Studying Irish raises your analytical skills

Studying Irish increases one's ability to retain knowledge by forcing one to retain information on stair na Gaeilge, literature etc

Having Irish means it might be easier to find a job.

Cons

Irish isn't

really needed if you want to be a doctor, architect, circus performer etc

Students may be forced to spend more time than they'd like studying Irish because it's needed to get into college when that time could be used to focus on subjects integral to their future careers.

That's just a start.

lilmizzme

dan719 wrote:

This raises the questio as to what is education. Is education what you learn at school? Or is it an individual journey of exploration, although I would quite happily specialise in maths and physics in school, my interests as a whole are very broad and include art, literature, and attempting to drink at least once every alcoholic beverage in existance. As such I believe that while specilisation would make school easy for me as far as exams are concered, it would not harm my own individual holistic approach to knowledge.

Trust Dan to get all philosophical on us!!

SamHamilton

This raises the questio as to what is education

Interested in opening another thread - specialising in the LC or something?