The Nurses.

K-9 · 21-04-2007 12:23AM

mickoneill30 wrote:

Well the whole issue is that the nurses are comparing their pay and working hours to other workers. Why can't we (private sector) do that with the nurses.

Benchmarking was all about bringing the public sector up to private sector levels. So whats the new benchmarking about? Bringing the public down to private sector levels!

The average has had only small increases in the last 4/5 years whereas the public sector has had 50/60% increases. I can't wait for the Unions to say, wait a second, we must bring our wages down in line with the private sector.

Tallaght01 wrote:

I just wish somebody could work out a way of sorting this out, without knocking the benchmarking issue out of the water, and without causing a stampede by others in the private sector.

I assume you meant public sector. Benchmarking was to try and avoid the stampede, though some would argue its another method of stampeding, sounds more humane

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Nurses working in private hospitals/homes/clinics are generally paid the rate that has been established by the HSE-EA. If, for example, HSE nurses were granted a 5% rise, the private employers would have to follow suit. Thare may be some small differences in Terms and Conditions, generally as a result of 'local bargaining'.

And also because the social partnership increases of 10% applied to unions both private and public. SIPTU accepted it. The INO and PNA did not accept the 10% increase.

Tallaght01 wrote:

I did originally make the point that I sympathise with the nurses, but I don't see a practical solution. That's the point I'd like to focus on. Can anyone see a way out of this?

The practical solution is compromise. A 35 hour week as long as no extra nurses are demanded and work practices are changed. Consultants on over €200,000 if work practices change. Wages are not the major isssue with the health service, getting more patients, beds etc, through the system is. I've no problem with more nurses if that means there will be more beds and facilities and more consultants if there is more flexible work practices.

Spyral · 21-04-2007 11:08AM

f anyone has any link or evidence to show nurses go 12 and 14 hours without rest on a regular basis in Ireland, do post it up.

hmm 12 hours in labor ward with bad timing can result in that.

Anyhoo..

lets not turn this into nurses v doctors or whatever.

Another issue though is the management. too many chiefs and not enough indians.

SimpleSam06 · 21-04-2007 01:27PM

Spyral wrote:

hmm 12 hours in labor ward with bad timing can result in that.

So thats yet another resounding no. The quantity of "think of the children" appeals, veiled threats, unsupported anecdotes, bad attempts at misdirection and bald lies coming from the nursing camp is suprising even to me, a jaded critic of the civil service. I mean its lazy practice, they are just depending on brute force to win the day. They might be surprised at just how much brute force public opinion represents.

tallaght01 wrote:

but I don't see a practical solution. That's the point I'd like to focus on. Can anyone see a way out of this?

Fire a good third of them along with a decent lump of the HSE, and replace the ones that weren't just dead wood with the many highly qualified nurses in third world countries queueing for years to get in. I recommend a third party private assessment of where to cut the fat, I know a couple of groups that have worked wonders with ailing companies.

The civil service needs to be stared down the hard way before they push the whole bucket over.

ronbyrne2005 · 21-04-2007 04:56PM

Nurses looking for effectively a 32% rise for doing a job they love and for which they are already among best paid in Europe! Some neck!

We have more nurses per head than most Europe and a younger(and therefore less sick) population.

Demand is still very high for the nursing degree places in colleges, it must still be a very attractive career.

Vast majority of INO nurses don't have university degree and many would argue a degree is'nt necessary for general nursing. They spend half the degree in work experience for which they get well paid.

Many nurses leave the health system for several years to travel/work abroad. The nursing qualification offers great freedom to travel and work abroad.

The have job security in an uncertain economic climate and get great pensions.

They have family friendly/flexible work arrangements.

Nurses do a job they love well. Just because you and I are'nt cut out for nursing dying or sick people does'nt mean we have to give nurses excessive financial renumeration to make us feel better and satisfy our innate sympathies. Why are'nt INO and psychiatric nurses out campaigning for better conditions for patients first and then focus on working times and maybe some extra pay but not the 32% they are looking for. We already spend more per capita on health system than NHS, France, and Canada who all have much better systems yet throwing money at the problem won't work.

tallaght01 · 21-04-2007 07:52PM

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

. We already spend more per capita on health system than NHS, France, and Canada who all have much better systems yet throwing money at the problem won't work.

I cant speak about the candian and French systems, but I wouldn't hold up the NHS as being a "Much better system".

nesf · 21-04-2007 08:18PM

tallaght01 wrote:

I cant speak about the candian and French systems, but I wouldn't hold up the NHS as being a "Much better system".

France is generally regarded as having an excellent health system. Our problems from all accounts are structural rather than simply financial. That said, I'd be curious over whether France's health system is very good when you get far away from the main urban areas in the interior.

UrbanFox · 21-04-2007 08:25PM

Another factor not to be forgotten is that most jobs have an economic price or job value which is partially determined by the laws of supply and demand.

Put another way, if the HSE can recruit a load of nurses from somewhere for the price that it wants to pay that can become the job value and issues of degres and levels of responsibility will go out the window.

Nurses might remember this when talking up their pay claim. I am not antagonistic towards the nurses. I believe that they have an eminently stateable case to make but they must also realise that the same principles used to determine job value apply no less to them than the rest of us.

FlutterinBantam · 21-04-2007 10:42PM

I see Doran after trumpeting for weeks that he "Wanted a date" for the start of the 35 hr week has backed down now on that and now it's "meaningful talks".

I hope the Hse has the balls to face down these people and not screw the already overburdened taxpayer to increase the pay of already very well paid people.

Red Alert · 22-04-2007 01:19PM

Compared to the excellent nurses, doctors and care assistants and others who look after patient's wellbeing, is it not time to stop the waste of money on unnecessary staff elsewhere in the health system such as the very top heavy administration that all hospitals seem to have.

sam34 · 22-04-2007 04:22PM

Danger_Dave wrote:

i have to clean wash patients who are incontinent and many other things which i dont need to get into,

tell me dave, why does this mean u should get a pay rise? after all, thats one fo the most basic nursing tasks and always has been . its not like it is being suddenly imposed on ye as a significant change in working practices. and anyway, while i acknowledge that cleaning someone who has ben singly or doubly incontinent isnt pleasant, lots of people do this every day. parents, creche workers, childminders. home carers for the demented or neurologically impaired. i dont hear parents looking for an increase in childrens allowance because they have to change foul smelling nappies.

and tallaght 01, im not suggesting that nurses shouldnt get what they want simply because we as doctors dont also have it. im trying to highlight that while the nurses are claimimg that all other health professionals have a 35 hr week, this is in fact untrue, and im trying to show that in comparison to doctors they dont have it too bad.

spyral, re our pay, we dont get bucketloads more than the nurses. i am not a consultant but i expect to be one within 3 yrs, so i consider myself fairly senior as an nchd. i am going out with a nurse who earns only €100 less than me per month (net pay) and who gets €60 more than me for a nights overtime, even tho as ive said before that nights overtime for a nurse is a 12 hr shift and for me it means 16 hrs overtime but a 32 hr shift.

Cionn · 22-04-2007 05:16PM

My 18 month old son was in hospital for 2 days and I have to say the care was excellent. Patient care in our case was in no way effected. I think that if you look at the standard working week for all the civil/ public servants would wouldn't see very many with a 39 hour week. I think this is the hot topic that should be addressed. I think a good compromise would be to reduce the working week by one hour per year for 4 years.

As for the pay increase I think it is deserved but that that should be addressed through non industrial action process. These guys complete a 4 year degree before they earn a small salary with limited increase for the rest of their working career.

What pisses me off is that the goverment will say no to the nurses demands yet they will get the commercial companies to give a 13% increase in minimum wage. I don't see how that is a cohesive and rounded approach.

FlutterinBantam · 22-04-2007 05:36PM

Basically what we need from our health service is "Value for Money"

It would appear that no matter what money you throw at this sector ,it's swallowed up in a bottomless pit and the "bang from your buck" is like a damp squib.

Increased payment, without being payed for by increased productivity,and change of work practices, is a non runner.

I, for one, resent the manipulation of the public purse by well paid people led by a person who in my opinion, wants to make a name for himself,and screw the taxpayer into the ground on the back of weak Government.

I would urge the Govt. to call his bluff,tough it out, and preserve the ind rel. mores which have served us well over the past few years.

remember its you and i have to pay out OUR hard earned shills to these people and I don't like it.

I don't like it one little bit!!

ronbyrne2005 · 22-04-2007 07:26PM

Cionn wrote:

My 18 month old son was in hospital for 2 days and I have to say the care was excellent. Patient care in our case was in no way effected. I think that if you look at the standard working week for all the civil/ public servants would wouldn't see very many with a 39 hour week. I think this is the hot topic that should be addressed. I think a good compromise would be to reduce the working week by one hour per year for 4 years.

As for the pay increase I think it is deserved but that that should be addressed through non industrial action process. These guys complete a 4 year degree before they earn a small salary with limited increase for the rest of their working career.

What pisses me off is that the goverment will say no to the nurses demands yet they will get the commercial companies to give a 13% increase in minimum wage. I don't see how that is a cohesive and rounded approach.

Have you actually read the rest of this thread? 70% of those in the health system work a 39 hr week! The nurses are comparing themselves to Physiotherapists, Occupational therapists and the like which they are'nt! Vast majority of nurses don't have degrees and even those with degrees are'nt as well qualified as physios etc. They earn money during their training as part of their degree amounting to pro rata 22k per annum. They start on above average industrial wage when allowances are taken into account plus the value of their job security, great pensions and flexible working hours make them already well paid!

Endasaurus · 22-04-2007 11:48PM

I'm not gonna read this entire thread but just to say I hope they get every cent.

Nightwish · 23-04-2007 12:10AM

I see the nurses aren't mentioning their location allowances and premium allowances. I had one of them on the phone to me moaning about losing her premium allowance after being promoted to a Nurse Manager, and asking me how do I expect her to survive on €48,000 a year, so I retorted, try living on less than half of that, and that shut her up.

FlutterinBantam · 23-04-2007 09:18AM

Endasaurus wrote:

I'm not gonna read this entire thread but just to say I hope they get every cent.

Well thought out reply there Enda.

Obviously you don't mind shelling out your hard earned taxes to fill a bottomless pit.
You have a good point though when you say its better to increase the pay of those already well paid and let the people who really need a leg up like pensioners ,the elderly etc survive on whats left over.
Sure they are expendable and have no voice.

Yes indeed , a balanced and far seeing response Enda,

Congrats.

SimpleSam06 · 23-04-2007 09:18AM

Endasaurus wrote:

I'm not gonna read this entire thread but just to say I hope they get every cent.

I hope you apply that same attitude to voting, and don't register.

bethm24 · 13-11-2008 07:25PM

Is it just me , or has agency nursing going through a really bad patch at the moment. I am quite new to it, I wont say which Agency im with, but the offer of work is not too plentiful at all. Anyone else finding this????:mad:

Wishbone Ash · 15-11-2008 12:11AM

bethm24 wrote: »

Is it just me , or has agency nursing going through a really bad patch at the moment. I am quite new to it, I wont say which Agency im with, but the offer of work is not too plentiful at all. Anyone else finding this????:mad:

Very few staff would be on annual leave from the October school mid term break to Christmas and therefore there is much less need for agency nurses.

The Nurses.

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