The Nurses.

ellenmelon

Archytas wrote:

How do I know what? That I get a crap service? I don't think I have to be a nurse to know this... I go to hospital hilariously regularly. And various different hospitals.



Their job??? Like everyone else? Do you complain when you've been let's say badly served by someone in KFC? Of course you do, even though they had lots things to do before they served you. Because you have a higher skilled job does that mean you're above criticism?

1. no. how do you know that 4 hours off a working week isnt going to make a difference.

2. how can you compare a nursing job to a job at kfc? there IS no comparison. there isnt a lot of risk in that kind of job, compared to the medical profession. the coke machine might break down but there isnt the potential for someone to die on you is there? (though, the chicken there is questionable to say the least..)

3. um, what higher skilled job do i have? you mean ive magically become qual'd as a nurse in the last five minutes! NO WAY! AWESOME! :rolleyes:

ronbyrne2005

Nurses are in a job they obviously like(or they would'nt be there, most are naturally empathic and this work appeals to them) and they work 39hrs a week or less and straight out of college they can earn 32k basic and 38k with a little overtime.They are also guaranteed job security and get a great pension yet they want an effective 32% pay rise!!!!. These are the facts. They are well paid to do their desired career. Vast majority of graduates who are as well or better qualified than nurses get nothing like those pay and conditions and would jump at the chance of getting them. When you factor in the pension and job security a recently qualified nurse earning basic 32k for doing a shorter week than most people has a great career! Stand firm against public sector extortion.

Sposs

ellenmelon wrote:

2. how can you compare a nursing job to a job at kfc? there IS no comparison. there isnt a lot of risk in that kind of job, compared to the medical profession. the coke machine might break down but there isnt the potential for someone to die on you is there? (though, the chicken there is questionable to say the least..)

If someone dies , the doctor gets the blame not the nurses, so no risk on their part. As someone mentioned above junior doctors work 120 hours a week for the same pay, and if someone dies it's their asses on the line not the nurses.

If their job is so unbearable find a new one. Give into their demands and you'll have the whole public sector pulling the same stunt every week.

SimpleSam06

ellenmelon wrote:

you do like the sound of your own voice dont you..blahhh blaaaah blaaah. no need to get so wound up, bitter and ignorant. why are you so angry all the time?
dont come whinging here in a years time when you or someone in your family has "crap service" from a nurse. cause no one will care.

Careful Ellen, you'll get yourself banned from After Hours, and we'd all hate that... From the AH charter:

Personal Abuse
- Posters who abuse others on here will be banned. Permanent bans will be handed out on a first offence if a moderator feels it is warranted. There is no argument on this one. Abuse someone and you will be banned. Calling someone an idiot is abuse. Don't attack the poster, attack the post. Posting PM's publicly without consent could be met with harsh consequences, especially if they do not have any place in the discussion.

Big Tone

......And now the Teachers have hopped on the Nurses bandwagon and want the pay increase deal reached in "Partnership Toward 2016" to be re-negotiated.....a deal that took months to strike (pun intended) and now they say they're not getting enough money without any mention of increase in productivity?! No doubt if you're like me working in the private sector these kind of demands make our blood boil!!!!

thebman

I don't think teachers deserve a pay rise that's for sure (and my mother is a teacher).

They get paid well enough considering if anything they are working less hours now than ever. School year seems to get shorter every year.

I've not heard my mother complain about her pay either.

The nurses do deserve to get a reduction in hours so that they are only working the same hours as everyone else in the health service. The pay should probably be left to the bench marking process.

nesf

Try and keep it civil please.

Archytas

ellenmelon wrote:

3. um, what higher skilled job do i have? you mean ive magically become qual'd as a nurse in the last five minutes! NO WAY! AWESOME! :rolleyes:

That was clearly meant as the collective "you" i.e. not you personally. And keep your childish replies to yourself.

ellenmelon wrote:

how can you compare a nursing job to a job at kfc? there IS no comparison.

But I didn't - I was comparing QOS not jobs...

ellenmelon wrote:

how do you know that 4 hours off a working week isnt going to make a difference.

How can it? Is there any service in the world that gets better when you reduce the workers hours? And as other better informed posters have pointed out - All risk lies at the feet of the doctor. And I for one would have it no other way.

ellenmelon

ellenmelon wrote:

you do like the sound of your own voice dont you..blahhh blaaaah blaaah. no need to get so wound up, bitter and ignorant. why are you so angry all the time?
dont come whinging here in a years time when you or someone in your family has "crap service" from a nurse. cause no one will care.

I think he is perfectly entitled to complain about service in a hospital regardless of how nurses are paid.

It shouldn't be about how well nurses are paid. You certainly can't argue they are poorly paid.

Wishbone Ash

Sposs wrote:

If someone dies , the doctor gets the blame not the nurses, so no risk on their part

Archytas wrote:

All risk lies at the feet of the doctor

Nurses are responsible for those patients in their care - not the doctors. A nurse is responsible for the adminisistration of medicines and the treatment of the patient. If a patient in a psychiatric hospital absconds or commits suicide while under close supervision, the responsibility lies with the nursing staff. If a patient chokes while eating a meal, it is the responsibility of the nursing staff. If a student nusre/unqualified staff makes a mistake which compromises patient care, the responsibility lies with nursing staff.

Some of the posters here are comparing nursing with working in the private sector. That comparison is totally unrealistic and unfair. How many of those in the private sector spend their day trying to supervise a person who is actively utilising every oportunity to end their lives? Worrying about sales targets, customer service, profits, losses etc. pale into insignificance.

K-9

Archytas wrote:

I work a 45 hour week not including on call time... And unless I missed a hint of sarcasm you can't call 39 hours slave labour. Not at all.

Was meant sarcastically. :rolleyes:

If Nurses work 45 hours that is their choice. They get paid overtime rates and for being on call. Nobody forces them to do it.

Archytas

Wishbone Ash wrote:

How many of those in the private sector spend their day trying to supervise a person who is actively utilising every oportunity to end their lives?

And how many nurses do that??? Right, let them have some money and work less hours (But only if they can prove that that is what they spend the whole day doing) and the rest can go jump. You average nurse in St Vincents isn't doing this all day.

Wishbone Ash wrote:

A nurse is responsible for the administration of medicines

That a doctor has prescribed!!

Wishbone Ash wrote:

the treatment of the patient.

That a doctor has advised - and only certain things.

constitutionus

Seanies32 wrote:

Was meant sarcastically. :rolleyes:

If Nurses work 45 hours that is their choice. They get paid overtime rates and for being on call. Nobody forces them to do it.

i think the whole "work to rule " thing showed that somebodys making em do work theyre not meant to and many contracts can force overtime on you if your given enough warning. oh and though im not a nurse im pretty sure i remember watching a primetime special which shows the longer a nurse works the less they earn. the hourly rate actually goes down, figure that one out

Archytas

Seanies32 wrote:

Was meant sarcastically. :rolleyes:

Rightso... Didn't see that.

Seanies32 wrote:

If Nurses work 45 hours that is their choice. They get paid overtime rates and for being on call. Nobody forces them to do it.

I don't get paid overtime, its part of my contract to be on call and last but not least I didn't say nurses work 45 hours... I said I did...

Wishbone Ash

Seanies32 wrote:

They get paid overtime rates and for being on call. Nobody forces them to do it.

Yes, but if they didn't do it, the health service would collapse. The reason additional hours exists is because there is a severe shortage of nurses. It's not provided to increase incomes!

(PS - nurses don't be "on call")

Wishbone Ash

constitutionus wrote:

i remember watching a primetime special which shows the longer a nurse works the less they earn. the hourly rate actually goes down, figure that one out

You may be confusing them with junior hospital doctors.

Nurses are paid time+50% or time+time for additional hours depending on the day.

Wishbone Ash

Archytas wrote:

That a doctor has prescribed!!



That a doctor has advised - and only certain things.

I don't see your point. A doctor may have prescribed/advised but the nurse is still responsible for their practise. If a nurse administers the wrong dose of medication, the nurse is responsible. It has nothing to do with the doctor.

Wishbone Ash

Archytas wrote:

I don't get paid overtime, its part of my contract

Presumably you agreed with that and signed your contract. What has that got to do with the nurses? They haven't signed a contract saying that they won't get paid for overtime!

K-9

FlutterinBantam wrote:

there are a lot of more deserving cases out there than listening to Doran and his ilk,trying to convince vulnerable and uninformed people to put the already well paid public sector on easy street.

Any politician who calls to my door better be prepared not to give in to these greedy selfish people and force my standard of living down to pay more to people who are already da*n well paid.

Strange how the political reaction from FG/Lab has been very slow in supporting the Nurses. Labour had a hard time explaining how one of their Cllrs. was supporting and was at one of the work stoppages. When the opposition don't even support the nurses strike when an election is coming up something is wrong.

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Some of the posters here are comparing nursing with working in the private sector. That comparison is totally unrealistic and unfair. How many of those in the private sector spend their day trying to supervise a person who is actively utilising every oportunity to end their lives? Worrying about sales targets, customer service, profits, losses etc. pale into insignificance.

When you become a Psych. Nurse it shouldn't be a big surprise about being on suicide watch. You got training and you must have had some idea when you applied about what it entailed. You also know the pay. Playing the emotional card does't work. Nobody forced Nurses into the job.

Private sector has plenty of responsibilities to.

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Worrying about sales targets, customer service, profits, losses etc. pale into insignificance.

They may not be as emotional or vocational but they mean keeping a company in business and maybe making profits, which keep people in jobs, pays peoples mortgages, childcare, cars etc. and affects peoples lives. Also of course they pay taxes which pays nurses and the public sector. Not as noble maybe as nursing but very necessary.

K-9

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Yes, but if they didn't do it, the health service would collapse. The reason additional hours exists is because there is a severe shortage of nurses. It's not provided to increase incomes!

(PS - nurses don't be "on call")

I think I posted the link earlier to the Business post last week. Majority of Nurses have part-time, flexi time and family friendly rosters so in fact don't work the 39 hours.

33% extra nurses in last few years. So your answer to addressing the "severe shortage" as you say is to reduce the hours nurses do thus requiring maybe 4,000 extra nurses?

Those 4,000 could be added to the Health Service at the minute thus increasing the actual nursing hours done. Instead the Nurses want the extra 4,000 Nurses so that they can get a 35 hour week and 10% pay rise.

Are Nurses interested in a better Health Service or is doing 4 hours less a week more important to them ?

Wishbone Ash

Seanies32 wrote:

Labour had a hard time explaining how one of their Cllrs. was supporting and was at one of the work stoppages

One of their TDs and an election candidate were at a work stoppage today!

Seanie32 wrote:

they pay taxes which pays nurses and the public sector

Yes, public sector workers don't pay taxes.

Archytas

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Presumably you agreed with that and signed your contract. What has that got to do with the nurses?

It was an answer to another post...

Wishbone Ash wrote:

If a nurse administers the wrong dose of medication, the nurse is responsible.

Of course they are. But that is a totally different responsibility to that of a doctors. A mis-dosage is a mistake that really shouldn't be made - its written down for the nurse.

Of course a nurse has responsibilities in the overall care of a patient - I'll be the first to admit it. But deserving of less hours and more pay, I really don't think so.

Wishbone Ash

Archytas wrote:

A mis-dosage is a mistake that really shouldn't be made - its written down for the nurse.

Ideally, no mistakes should be made but life is not like that. Nurses make mistakes and are responsible for them. In earlier posts, it was said that doctors take all the risks. That is simply not true.

Seans32 wrote:

So your answer to addressing the "severe shortage" as you say is to reduce the hours nurses do thus requiring maybe 4,000 extra nurses?

The severe shortage is a problem allowed to develop by incompetent HSE management. It is not the fault of the nurses. Why should they be prevented from seeking better pay and conditions because there is a problem not of their making. They would be perfectly entitled to withdraw their availability to do extra hours without contravening their contract. How would management cope then?

KeRbDoG

nurse_baz wrote:

thank u for looking into the reasoning behind the dispute

as for the shorter working week......... if in the place you worked 20 years ago you were tld you would the first person to work 35hrs a week by your boss, then over the intervening period, everyone else that you worked with got those shorter hours, but you still didn't...wouldn't you be pissed off? This is despite the fact that you brought it up several times and were told, "ah yeah, we'll get it sorted" but it never was......

nurses didn't go into this not prepared to give anything. the unions offered to engage in a programme of reform within the Health service looking at everything from expanding the role of the nurse to changes rosters. they also said that the 35 hr week could be worked on, and that if we got a time for when it could be implemented, then, we could start to plan for it and look at how it will happen, but the employers said NO, not the nurses.

Well said. I for one am on the nurses side on this one, they had been promised a 35 hour working week and the pay increase but both have yet to appear thus the strikes.
The government is the ones you should thank for this strike. This dispute isn't a brand new one, its been going on for years and only comes to the attention of the public because of the strike.
Has anyone noticed the complete bias of the press on this dispute?

K-9

Wishbone Ash wrote:

One of their TDs and an election candidate were at a work stoppage today!

Yes, public sector workers don't pay taxes.

Very selective of you. FG have said there should be more talks with maybe Mary Harney or Bertie intervening personally. Labour have been strangely quite. The election candidate kind of says it all! I wouldn't bet on FG/Lab being more sympathetic to Nurses than FF/PD's when an election was over.

We all pay tax.:)

Wishbone Ash wrote:

The severe shortage is a problem allowed to develop by incompetent HSE management. It is not the fault of the nurses. Why should they be prevented from seeking better pay and conditions because there is a problem not of their making. They would be perfectly entitled to withdraw their availability to do extra hours without contravening their contract. How would management cope then?

They would cope by employing extra nurses from agencies and eventually abroad.

Fair enough, the past shortage of Nurses has a lot to with the HSE/Govt. and also Unions.

However any shortage of Nurses in the future would in large part be down to Nurses and their Unions. Do they seriously expect 4,000 extra Nurses to be employed to do the same hours as before.

What will happen if the Nurses get their demands is

1. 10% Pay rise
2. Working hours reduced
3. 4,000 extra Nurses employed to keep the existing hours
4. Unions say the Health Service hasn't improved. Doh!
   despite the extra nurses employed to cover the less hours worked
5. Unions - we need more nurses!:mad:
   

Nurses are entitled to make wage claims etc. but there is a responsibility attached to them.

SimpleSam06

kerbdog wrote:

Well said. I for one am on the nurses side on this one, they had been promised a 35 hour working week and the pay increase but both have yet to appear thus the strikes.
The government is the ones you should thank for this strike. This dispute isn't a brand new one, its been going on for years and only comes to the attention of the public because of the strike.
Has anyone noticed the complete bias of the press on this dispute?

Please tell me you aren't old enough to vote...

K-9

Please would people stop the argument that Nurses care for sick/dying people or mentally ill/suicidal people etc. etc.

Thats your job and you wheren't dragged with a straight jacket (excuse the pun) into it.

What next? Guards and Prison officers saying their jobs tougher because they have to deal with dangerous criminals?

Well don't join then.

mikemac

I was completly against the nurses at the start of this whole issue. You could say I come from a family of nurses (mother, sister & 5 aunts) and I'm in the Order of Malta but don't get paid obviously.

I don't think we should should just throw money at the bottomless pit that is the Irish health service.
But the nurses demands can be meet if we:
Stand up the consultants moaning over a €200,000 salary and calling new hire consultants (from Europe and UK) "yellow pack" workers.
Cut the administration and bureaucracy. Another poster said no admin jobs were lost when the Health Boards were replaced by the HSE.

In short, cut unneccasary clerical staff and start appreciating front-line staff, nurses, ambulance drivers, junior doctors-who should not be working 100 hour weeks.

So I say grant the nurses a 35 hour week to match other health service staff.
Regarding the pay demand, I say take it to the Labour court or benchmarkng and obey by that.

All tell the teachers to feck off with their demands.:mad:
Not even politcians get holidays like teachers

ellenmelon

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Careful Ellen, you'll get yourself banned from After Hours, and we'd all hate that... From the AH charter:

well there would be no tears shed by me.
and to be fair, there are people in here saying far worse things about nurses than i may have said about anyone..selfish b!tches, money grabbing bastards and the like.
the thing annoying me is that a lot of people on here are refusing to even consider the other side of the story and repeating themselves.

i have better things to do with my life, so im off..

Wishbone Ash

Seanies32 wrote:

Very selective of you

You raised the topic of Labour politicians and said that the party were trying to explain a councillor supporting the campaign. I was merely pointing out that a sitting Labour TD and a candidate were at a stoppage yesterday. How am I being selective?

Seanies32 wrote:

They would cope by employing extra nurses from agencies

A large portion of nurses employed by agencies are nurses in whole time HSE positions who have to supplement their modest incomes by working on their holidays. There are very few full time agency nurses.