The Nurses.

Dampsquid

A 35 hour standard working week for the nurses doesn't mean that they will be working less hours and doing a better job, it means they will get more f**king overtime.

lucernarian

Yeah, if their overtime was worth anything. 1 1/8 is the nurses' overtime rate I believe.

Whatever about the pay raise, which won't make their job any easier, the 35 hour week certainly will. If you saw how some nurses go to work turning patients in beds, despite having had a disc removed from their back and in constant chronic pain, then people would not be so quick to criticise their current actions.

patrickolee

Used to live with three nurses... salt of the earth, so I might be a little biased, but I think they deserve the pay increase. I think the 10% payrise and hour reduction thing is really a bargaining position. Don't think the union really expect to get both. It's just a starting place. If I was selling a computer i would advertise it (on adverts.ie of course) for 500, even if I only expected to get 400. The union reps may have a made a mistake by asking for 1000 and annoying people though.

Generally in favour of the nurses, but not the union's tactics, if that makes sense.

Archytas

To_be_confirmed wrote:

Whatever about the pay raise, which won't make their job any easier, the 35 hour week certainly will. If you saw how some nurses go to work turning patients in beds, despite having had a disc removed from their back and in constant chronic pain, then people would not be so quick to criticise their current actions.

Thats down to bad training and technique - not the length of time they work a week - If they get a 35 hour week it just means it will take a little bit longer to get that chronic pain that your talking about - 4 hours less a week means about 4 patients less turned. Who'll still need to be turned by the way.

davyjose

patrickolee wrote:

Don't think the union really expect to get both. It's just a starting place.

Me hole it is.

Nightwish

micmclo wrote:

Cut the administration and bureaucracy. Another poster said no admin jobs were lost when the Health Boards were replaced by the HSE.

In short, cut unneccasary clerical staff and start appreciating front-line staff, nurses, ambulance drivers, junior doctors-who should not be working 100 hour weeks.

For every extra group of doctors/nurses etc that are employed more admin staff have to be employed. Since the inception of the HSE it has become very difficult for any admin job to be advertised. As I mentioned before all maternity leave cover, sick leave cover, career break cover cannot be filled. So admin staff are being affected. All non union admin staff are working double shifts and all weekend to cover for the nurses work to rule (more money being spent on admin!).

PeakOutput

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Ideally, no mistakes should be made but life is not like that. Nurses make mistakes and are responsible for them. In earlier posts, it was said that doctors take all the risks. That is simply not true.

The severe shortage is a problem allowed to develop by incompetent HSE management. It is not the fault of the nurses. Why should they be prevented from seeking better pay and conditions because there is a problem not of their making. They would be perfectly entitled to withdraw their availability to do extra hours without contravening their contract. How would management cope then?

noone is saying they cant seek better pay and conditions we are just saying that they dont deserve them...............the government can only be blamed for the general poor state of the health service nurses/nurses unions greed can be blamed for the rest.

ellenmelon wrote:

well there would be no tears shed by me.
and to be fair, there are people in here saying far worse things about nurses than i may have said about anyone..selfish b!tches, money grabbing bastards and the like.
the thing annoying me is that a lot of people on here are refusing to even consider the other side of the story and repeating themselves.

i have better things to do with my life, so im off..

personal insults are not the same as describing a group but good luck anyway

in an ideal world we could meet their demands however all the bodies who deal with this sort of thing benchmarking/ labour court etc etc.... have said that the nurses have been dealt with fairly and have been made offers based on investigated merits of such offers.......these investigations include the general state of the health service and the impact agreeing to their demands would have on the service.


I want someone on the pro nurse side to answer two things

1) how do they think the already stretched health service can survive with roughly 5/6k less nurses????

2)if this strike is not money motivated as many have said why are they looking for an extra 10% ON TOP of the shorter working week as the shorter week would bring their hourly wage up which would get rid of this so called "pay anomaly" with less qualified people getting paid slightly more

Dampsquid wrote:

A 35 hour standard working week for the nurses doesn't mean that they will be working less hours and doing a better job, it means they will get more f**king overtime.

exactly...pure money driven dispute nothing to do with stress or over work or anything else

Nightwish wrote:

For every extra group of doctors/nurses etc that are employed more admin staff have to be employed. Since the inception of the HSE it has become very difficult for any admin job to be advertised. As I mentioned before all maternity leave cover, sick leave cover, career break cover cannot be filled. So admin staff are being affected. All non union admin staff are working double shifts and all weekend to cover for the nurses work to rule (more money being spent on admin!).

i heard 15%-25% of the health budget goes on admin in the uk its 2%

simple solution(oversimplified but possible)....fire 50% of the admin tell the other 50% that they have 12months to justify their jobs at the end of 12months another 50% of you will be fired the remaining 25% will have their salaries doubled.........guess what.....we now have an extra 7-12% of the budget to hire new doctors new nurses and get new buildings which at the end of the day are the things that affect the service for the people on the front line


there is simply no need for all the management at the moment and like every other public sector position their job is so secure they couldnt be bothered being motiviated to perform to their best therefore the tax payer gets ****e value for money

BrandonBlock

Holding the public to ransom is not the way to go, if they continue or step up these work stoppages then people are going to die. Just so they can get an extra few quid into their pockets. That is morally wrong. If they want pay increase they should follow the correct benchmarking process methods of doing so. If they want doctors/consultants salaries and working conditions they should have studied medicine, not nursing. If I wanted higher salary I would have studied law, or dentistry, or some other high paying career, but I chose IT because it's what I like doing. I don't go striking because my salary isn't up to that of lawyers or dentists, even if I work with them and develop IT systems for them.

Nightwish

PeakOutput wrote:

i heard 15%-25% of the health budget goes on admin in the uk its 2%

simple solution(oversimplified but possible)....fire 50% of the admin tell the other 50% that they have 12months to justify their jobs at the end of 12months another 50% of you will be fired the remaining 25% will have their salaries doubled.........guess what.....we now have an extra 7-12% of the budget to hire new doctors new nurses and get new buildings which at the end of the day are the things that affect the service for the people on the front line

I cannot comment on your figures, as I don't know how accurate they are. However, I can comment on the admin area where I work. I am employed in recruitment of nurses, doctors, para-med staff. Without myself and my colleagues, you wouldnt be able to get your new nurses and doctors. Then theres the payroll staff - without whom you wouldnt be able to pay the nurses and doctors. Theres the Finance department which overseas the budget for the region, and the Network Mgmt dept which manage the hospitals. All these departments require pen pushers. In the hospital you have ward clerks (as you know the nurses are quite adverse to doing admin), admissions and casualty staff and medical and clinic staff - without whom the doctors wouldnt be able to arrange and run clinics. So unless the doctors and nurses are prepared to start doing their own typing and managing their own clinics and records not to mention running their own payroll etc you're going to need those admin staff.

SimpleSam06

To_be_confirmed wrote:

Yeah, if their overtime was worth anything. 1 1/8 is the nurses' overtime rate I believe.

Bollocks, another poster was on here earlier telling us nursing overtime is time and a half to double time, depending on the day, and he's on the pro-nursing side. Has anyone got any solid figures there?

Nightwish wrote:

prepared to start doing their own typing and managing their own clinics and records not to mention running their own payroll etc you're going to need those admin staff.

I believe the phrase "admin" is a misnomer in this case. "Support staff" would be more accurate. Tell me, aside from a few key decision makers, how much of the "admin" work there could be successfully outsourced?

Nightwish

So you would rather have a recruitment agency which charges €1000 per nurse running the recruitment dept?

darkman2

I see other workers for the HSE are getting in on this act of bribery also. Supprise, supprise looking for a 35 hour week. I told you this would spread like wild fire. The teachers too are supporting them. I think the government should send out a very strong message here and I think the HSE should sack those Nurses who wish to continue this work to rule. That would get the rest back to work very bloody quick. Trying to pull this fast one before the election will seriously damage further the perception of Nurses to the public.

BrandonBlock

At the end of the day they are greedy money-grabbing bitches. That's all this is about - more money. If they want higher paid jobs they should choose different careers. Rather than putting peoples lives at risk. It seems their weekly income is a lot more important to them than peoples lives.

nesf

BrandonBlock wrote:

At the end of the day they are greedy money-grabbing bitches. That's all this is about - more money. If they want higher paid jobs they should choose different careers. Rather than putting peoples lives at risk. It seems their weekly income is a lot more important to them than peoples lives.

Tone it down a bit please.

Wishbone Ash

To_be_confirmed wrote:

1 1/8 is the nurses' overtime rate I believe.

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Bollocks, another poster was on here earlier telling us nursing overtime is time and a half to double time, depending on the day, and he's on the pro-nursing side. Has anyone got any solid figures there?

Time plus one half of the normal basic rate per hour for each hour worked from 8am to 12 midnight Monday to Friday and from 8am to 12 noon on Saturday.

Double time of the normal basic rate per hour from 12 midnight to 8am Monday to Friday and from 12 noon Saturday to 8am Monday.

PeakOutput

Nightwish wrote:

I cannot [cut] typing and managing their own clinics and records not to mention running their own payroll etc you're going to need those admin staff.

my point is they are overpaid and under worked....we need those positions filled we do not need them filledby as much "deadweight" that I(only me i have no proof to back it up but it tends to be how the public secotr is) believe is there at the moment.......no doubt you work your ass off and if you do I believe you are the exception rather than the rule

Nightwish wrote:

So you would rather have a recruitment agency which charges €1000 per nurse running the recruitment dept?

outsourcing works i dont personally know if it is necessary but it works.............it should not be too hard to find someone willing to do it more efficiently and better than it is being done now

the_syco

The goverment know that if they give the nurses what they want, everyone else in the public sector will want the same. Less hours, more pay. Less hours, meaning more staff, and more pay plus more staff equals a tax increase to pay for them, which in turn will lead to prices going up, and inflation going up.

PeakOutput

PeakOutput wrote:

I want someone on the pro nurse side to answer two things

1) how do they think the already stretched health service can survive with roughly 5/6k less nurses????

2)if this strike is not money motivated as many have said why are they looking for an extra 10% ON TOP of the shorter working week as the shorter week would bring their hourly wage up which would get rid of this so called "pay anomaly" with less qualified people getting paid slightly more

id love an answer im prepared to be persuaded

K-9

Wishbone Ash wrote:

You raised the topic of Labour politicians and said that the party were trying to explain a councillor supporting the campaign. I was merely pointing out that a sitting Labour TD and a candidate were at a stoppage yesterday. How am I being selective?

Because of course a TD seeking re election is going to be there. My point was that Labour did not support his stance.

Wishbone Ash wrote:

A large portion of nurses employed by agencies are nurses in whole time HSE positions who have to supplement their modest incomes by working on their holidays. There are very few full time agency nurses.

How large a portion. What percentage ?

ellenmellon wrote:

well there would be no tears shed by me.
and to be fair, there are people in here saying far worse things about nurses than i may have said about anyone..selfish b!tches, money grabbing bastards and the like.
the thing annoying me is that a lot of people on here are refusing to even consider the other side of the story and repeating themselves.

i have better things to do with my life, so im off..

People have considered the Nurses side but believe there ia a lot more wrong with the Health Service and more pressing demands than Nurses wages and hours. You'd better get used to other peoples opinions because the longer the work stoppages go on the worse its going to get for Nurses.

SimpleSam06

Nightwish wrote:

So you would rather have a recruitment agency which charges €1000 per nurse running the recruitment dept?

Only if you want your pants pulled down over the price. There are a wide variety of global alternatives available these days.

darkman2 wrote:

I see other workers for the HSE are getting in on this act of bribery also.

This is blackmail, not bribery. If it was bribery they would be doing their protesting in the nude.



I might actually vote for that...

constitutionus

PeakOutput wrote:

I want someone on the pro nurse side to answer two things

1) how do they think the already stretched health service can survive with roughly 5/6k less nurses????

they wont. the shorter working week will mean that the normal week their doing now will become 4hours of overtime so they'll be doing the same work they are now only getting rewarded for it instead of being taken advantage of. course theres nothing stopping the HSE sacking 6k administrators and hiring nurses instead, that way they wouldnt even have to do overtime and theyd actually save money as well .:D

peak output wrote:

2)if this strike is not money motivated as many have said why are they looking for an extra 10% ON TOP of the shorter working week as the shorter week would bring their hourly wage up which would get rid of this so called "pay anomaly" with less qualified people getting paid slightly more

*sigh* this is what you get when youve an entire generation who know nothing about industrial action. its called "bargaining", the nurses dont really want the 10% extra which is why theyll "settle" for the 35hr week and the government will harp on about what a good deal they got and "beat" them at the wage issue while in reality they got exactly what they wanted. you notice everyones focusing on the wage issue now not the hourly rate anymore. its standard practice you dont tell your boss you want a 5k wage increase you tell him 10k and work down

i mean you do know if these nurses sign up for benchmarking they'll get the 10% anyway

PeakOutput

constitutionus wrote:

they wont. the shorter working week will mean that the normal week their doing now will become 4hours of overtime so they'll be doing the same work they are now only getting rewarded for it instead of being taken advantage of. course theres nothing stopping the HSE sacking 6k administrators and hiring nurses instead, that way they wouldnt even have to do overtime and theyd actually save money as well .:D




*sigh* this is what you get when youve an entire generation who know nothing about industrial action. its called "bargaining", the nurses dont really want the 10% extra which is why theyll "settle" for the 35hr week and the government will harp on about what a good deal they got and "beat" them at the wage issue while in reality they got exactly what they wanted. you notice everyones focusing on the wage issue now not the hourly rate anymore. its standard practice you dont tell your boss you want a 5k wage increase you tell him 10k and work down

i mean you do know if these nurses sign up for benchmarking they'll get the 10% anyway

iv said numerous times they should get the extra pay but there is noway they should get the shorter week so it dosnt particularly bother me if they get it from benchmarking or from holding the country to ransom................they should not be given the shorter week as other peoples working conditions are for DIFFERENT JOBS nurses working week is 39hours end of story it has nothing to do with the administrators working week or mary harneys working week.

Danger_Dave

Im going to get in on this, im biased but still. We only want what other health professional get within the health system. The majority of of health professionals work 35hr weeks, e.g Physio's, occupational therapists, dietians, social workers. Why should we be the ones to work 39hrs a week. Why are we told that nursing is a great job and you do a lot for society and people, but no your not going to get the money you deserve?.

Nurses are the backbone of the health service and deserve a 35hr week,10% payrise and the pay anomally sorted out. Ive studied every post to this thread, and the amount of people who start attacking the nursing industrial action without even looking at the facts is simply astounding. Look up the figures, look at the jobs we do. look at the recommendations 27years ago, look at it all and then comment.

Also on a side note, in then nursing profession we dont just clock out when are shift ends you know?, i cant count how many times ive worked over my shift sometimes up to over an hour its so busy. Apologies if theres spelling or grammar mistakes its late and im going to bed now.

SimpleSam06

This is just getting pathetic. I mean for every one you refute, two more pop up with the exact same points you just refuted two pages ago. On most message boards they would be banned for trolling.

Danger_Dave wrote:

Why should we be the ones to work 39hrs a week.

Yeah imagine that, a 39 hour week, why thats almost like everyone in the private sector.

Danger_Dave wrote:

Ive studied every post to this thread,

No you haven't, Dave. No you haven't.

Danger_Dave wrote:

Look up the figures, look at the jobs we do. look at the recommendations 27years ago, look at it all and then comment.

If you had read every post in this thread, you'd know a lot of people already have looked them up, and understand the situation a lot better than you seem to. I'll tell you what though, if you can come up with these magical figures, post up a link to them here on boards.

Danger_Dave wrote:

i cant count how many times ive worked over my shift sometimes up to over an hour its so busy.

Wow, a whole hour? Thats unheard of, nobody I know has ever done that. Next thing you'll want some sort of compensation for that extra hour, some sort of... over... time...

K-9

Danger_dave wrote:

We only want what other health professional get within the health system. The majority of of health professionals work 35hr weeks, e.g Physio's, occupational therapists, dietians, social workers. Why should we be the ones to work 39hrs a week.

So how come other unions are looking for 35 hour weeks. 35,000 workers are supposed to be included :

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0415/nurses.html

Nurses unions described the other workers looking for this as "unhelpful".

There was an article in the Tribune (can't find it online) about a social worker working over 50 hours a week as well.

constitutionus wrote:

*sigh* this is what you get when youve an entire generation who know nothing about industrial action. its called "bargaining", the nurses dont really want the 10% extra which is why theyll "settle" for the 35hr week and the government will harp on about what a good deal they got and "beat" them at the wage issue while in reality they got exactly what they wanted. you notice everyones focusing on the wage issue now not the hourly rate anymore. its standard practice you dont tell your boss you want a 5k wage increase you tell him 10k and work down

Well then call the work stoppage off and get back to work. Harney has said they will get it after it is costed and worked out but it has to be on a no cost basis. Go back to talks and sort out the details.

FlutterinBantam

As a stakeholder in this dispute(a taxpayer) i strongly resent one already paid group trying to use an upcoming election and vulnerable people(patients in hospital) to pursue their unrealistic pay and conditions claims.

Both Govt. and prospective opposition have rejected their claims and urged them to use the mechanism used by others in the already overpaid and underproductive public service.

There are many many more deserving case for use of public money than the nurses.

They are losing badly in the PR stakes,Doran is starting to sound desperate.as a Longsuffering taxpayer I would urge the Govt. to stand firm on this one a tell Doran and his union to get in line or suffer the consequences.

Wishbone Ash

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Yeah imagine that, a 39 hour week, why thats almost like everyone in the private sector

Why the constant comparison to the private sector? There is nothing to compare nursing with. The working week of other private sector employees is irrevelant. The comparison should be made with other health care professionals working in the clinical area. They all work 35 hours per week or less.

(Nurses working in private sector, profit making hospitals/clinics/centres are paid the 'going rate' as set by the HSE-EA).

PeakOutput wrote:

my point is they are overpaid and under worked

In fairness, many administration staff work very hard. Mrs Wishbone Ash is a HSE Grade 8 administrator. You don't become a Grade 8 in your early 30s by being a deadweight. She gives everything to her job and is very dedicated to it.

Mitch Connor

FlutterinBantam wrote:

As a stakeholder in this dispute(a taxpayer) i strongly resent one already paid group trying to use an upcoming election and vulnerable people(patients in hospital) to pursue their unrealistic pay and conditions claims.

Both Govt. and prospective opposition have rejected their claims and urged them to use the mechanism used by others in the already overpaid and underproductive public service.

There are many many more deserving case for use of public money than the nurses.

They are losing badly in the PR stakes,Doran is starting to sound desperate.as a Longsuffering taxpayer I would urge the Govt. to stand firm on this one a tell Doran and his union to get in line or suffer the consequences.

Unrealistic pay and conditions? they want the same working wee as others in the proffesion and a 2% pay rise (2% was all they origianally wanted, but it was refused, so they have asked for 10 and will negotiate down as required.

FlutterinBantam

Tauren wrote:

Unrealistic pay and conditions? they want the same working wee as others in the proffesion and a 2% pay rise (2% was all they origianally wanted, but it was refused, so they have asked for 10 and will negotiate down as required.

there is a process for determining Public sector pay..its called benchmarking.

It was introduced to get rid of the ridiculous tit for tat pay claims endemic in the PS of the last century.

In my opinion it is generous and takes into account the security of tenure and pension conditions of those in the public service. But no!!!Nurses and Mr. Doran not happy with that,as I said in an earlier post,they want their cake and eat it.

I do not want to see my hard earned tax money squandered on a group, whom most will admit are quite well paid, and have conditions many would envy.

As old Abe once said "You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time"

The nurses would do quite well to dwell on that quotation for a little time!!

Degsy

Most rank-and-file nurses arent irish,the irish nurses being churned out of colleges now dont want to work on wards,they want management style positions and this is what they think they should be paid extra for..the fact that they've gone to college.As for a "living in Dublin allowance" they can go to bloody hell,if they get one,i want one and i want it backdated 36 years.