The Nurses.

12-04-2007 10:15AM

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Well said son.... Articulating what any person with a modicum of common sense would say.

Well done.

Except those in the public service of course! Who have it so hard.

At the end of the day I'm sick of my tax being squandered on inefficient, ineffective and bloated public service. Who earn well above the national average wage, have guaranteed inflation proof wage increases and still feel the need to strike. Without any extra accountability or positive changes in work practices of course.

This isn't squarely aimed at nurses btw its the handling of the public service in general. I really hope they are tackled by the next government.

thebman · 12-04-2007 10:32AM

I think its all relative. They get paid less than some people working below them. That is ridiculous. How many managers are getting paid less than the average Joe employee?

Must Irish nurses go abroad so something must be up, logic should tell you that.

If everyone else is on a standard week of 35 hours so should the nurses. The shortages can be filled by the nurses that will stay in Ireland to work because of the better conditions.

How much does it cost the state to train nurses for other countries?

I mean if they are being paid lower than people that are below them then it has to be brought in line. If they work longer hours than anyone else then it should be brought in line. These things are feasible, it'll just take work to achieve them on the part of the HSE. I think anything else is just sour grapes on the part of people in the private sector. I work in the private sector but I don't begrudge them their wage.

Also I thought I'd point out to someone who said earlier that they know that nursing is hard and should have thought about if they wanted to do it or not before they started that maybe they thought they could put up with it and circumstances changed like the cost of living/cost of a house/collegues working conditions improved but theirs didn't.

mickoneill30 · 12-04-2007 10:41AM

brim4brim wrote:

I think its all relative. They get paid less than some people working below them. That is ridiculous. How many managers are getting paid less than the average Joe employee?

I heard today that the consultants are offered €200K per year. They report to the HSE, who reports to Mary Harney, who earns less than €200K per year.

Not suggesting that she deserves that much but it is a case of somebody getting paid less than the people beneath her.

K-9 · 12-04-2007 11:34AM

Wishbone Ash wrote:

The non-vital nursing duties relating to patient care would have been carried out prior to, or following the one hour stoppage.

But non vital operations where cancelled.

ellenmellon wrote:

my mum is the same; on a "normal week" (if you could call it that),ie when she was on days she was pretty much over 40 hours. going into nights which she had to do,i think at least a week out of every month, she was doing more like 48 hours over 4 days. we never see her as if she's not at work, she's sleeping.
this is not a new topic to a lot of people in the nursing profession..in ireland and other countries. the health service in ireland have put their fingers in their ears, singing away to themselves with their big pay packets for a bit too long and are all shocked when employees are sick of the crap conditions that they work under.

She had to do nights and she's a nurses. God forbid. Next bar staff will have to work nights.

48 Hours over 4 nights. Did she not get paid for the 48 hours? Did she not get overtime or shift allowances?

mickoneill30 wrote:

I heard today that the consultants are offered €200K per year. They report to the HSE, who reports to Mary Harney, who earns less than €200K per year.

Not suggesting that she deserves that much but it is a case of somebody getting paid less than the people beneath her.

Good point. Same with people moaning about the increases TD's, ministers got.Lets give 40,000 increases because about 166 TD's got gig increases. Typical public sector pay reasoning.

K-9 · 12-04-2007 11:39AM

wheresthebeef wrote:

Pay Package is not all that sweet. It's not in line with other public servants i.e Social Care Workers, Student Nurses in their fourth year work an 8 month roster where they are paid 11.30 an hour for a 39 hour week, what benefits????? please outline these supposed benefits??? and Pensions are same for all public sector workers, why not take a jab at them. Can i also remind people that a lot of nurses, especially newly qualified nurses are working on 2 year temporary contracts, and do not have "jobs for life" as is the case in the Civil Service.

Engineers, Surveyors on sites often don't get paid as much as labourers etc. and they are answerable to the engineers.

On student Nurses getting 11.30 an hour, well they are unqualified students!

Nurses on temporary contacts, thats shocking!

K-9 · 12-04-2007 11:41AM

brim4brim wrote:

Also I thought I'd point out to someone who said earlier that they know that nursing is hard and should have thought about if they wanted to do it or not before they started that maybe they thought they could put up with it and circumstances changed like the cost of living/cost of a house/collegues working conditions improved but theirs didn't.

50/60% wage increases in the last 5 years.

And did those same cicumstances not change for everybody else? Is cost of living and house prices just a problem for nurses?

tallaght01 · 12-04-2007 11:58AM

so, has anybody got any constructive solutions to the problem? From working in hospitals, I would take the view that nurses are indeed overworked and underpaid. Certainly, their conditions are not the worst in the hospital. But, on a human level, that's not their problem. The fact that people in the private sector are not well paid, or that others in the hospital are treated worse than nurses probably isn't justification for them to give up on what they're looking for. The nurses I work with have better working conditions than I do, but I still wouldn't begrudge them a payrise or shorter hours. However, there are issues with benchmarking etc if the govt cedes to their demands.

This all has to come to a head sometime soon. So what do people think WILL happen, and what do people think SHOULD happen. There must be a happy medium between "give the angels everything they want" and "yiz knew what it was gonna be like when you started. I get paid 2 walnuts and a dead rabbit every week, so you should be happy with your lot"

gazzer · 12-04-2007 12:15PM

What I would be inclined to do (and its something that I would do in the public service in general) is to keep the salarys as they are but give an allowance to those staff who work in the likes of Dublin.. a city living allowance.

For instance.. I work as an EO in Dublin City, an EO working in some rural part of Leitrim gets the exact same wage as me.. This situation would arise in the health boards, county councils etc also.

Obviously a person can have a better quality of life living in Leitrim on their EO wage than me living in Dublin on the same wage.. So a city living allowance would help to balance the quality of live v wages situation (in my opinion anyway). I know with Decentralisation I have the option of moving to the country but in the wider scheme of things along the whole public service (you need nurses in the larger cities) it would be a good thing.

Jimoslimos · 12-04-2007 12:50PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Well guess what, my little overpaid friend, most people don't get paid to go to college! And straight out of college, nurses get paid at or more than the average industrial wage. Compare that with other degree level college graduates, in particular in the private sector.

Well guess what my little misinformed friend, most students have a choice of whether and where they work or not during their summer holidays. And tell me, what other "industries" are you comparing for this "average industrial wage". Nursing is a healthcare profession and as such wages should be compared with other healthcare professions, doctors, radiologists, healthcare scientists

What I would be inclined to do (and its something that I would do in the public service in general) is to keep the salarys as they are but give an allowance to those staff who work in the likes of Dublin.. a city living allowance.

Good suggestion, something akin to london weighting. I'm not sure whether the country is large enough for something like that to work effectively

tallaght01 · 12-04-2007 01:01PM

Jimoslimos wrote:

Nursing is a healthcare profession and as such wages should be compared with other healthcare professions, doctors, radiologists, healthcare scientists

I've been working in the UK for a while now, but I remember it being the case that a newly qualified nurse gets the same money (or 1k more if i remember) as a newly qualified doctor. I may have my facts wrong, and it may not be the case now. I'm not comparing wages after the junior doc's 100 hour week, I'm comparing the 39 hour week base rate for both professions.

Radiologists are consultant doctors, so aren't a seperate group. I'm biased, but I don't believe that nurses wages should be compared to doctors. The reason for that is, aside from the qualifications and responsibility issue, that we are left out of th benchmarking process as juniors. So we spend many years with essentially no regulation of our hours or conditions, so it's probably fair enough that we are well recompensed when we finally reach consultant level.

just my tuppence worth :P

Jimoslimos · 12-04-2007 01:42PM

tallaght01 wrote:

I'm biased, but I don't believe that nurses wages should be compared to doctors. The reason for that is, aside from the qualifications and responsibility issue, that we are left out of th benchmarking process as juniors. So we spend many years with essentially no regulation of our hours or conditions, so it's probably fair enough that we are well recompensed when we finally reach consultant level.

I'm not biased, neither nurse or doctor and I am working in the private sector. But I do agree with you on the point that doctors are deserving of a better wage (primarily on the responsibility point). In fact I'd go as far as saying that doctors should be compensated far before they reach consultant level.

My point was that perhaps salaries amongst doctors, nurses, med lab techs, social care workers, etc should be linked against each other(separately to other public sector workers) not that nurses should be paid the same as doctors. Another poster made the point that nurses were paid at or above the average industrial wage. I'm interested to know what professions are included in this average. Anyway as a high-skill job I think it is fully deserving of an above average starting salary.

hmmm · 12-04-2007 03:51PM

Jimoslimos wrote:

Anyway as a high-skill job I think it is fully deserving of an above average starting salary.

What's high skill about it? Why should a nurse receive more than the average wage? Someone mentioned that it involves a lot of responsibility that could lead to potential death, well so does a truck driver at the wheel or a crane operator on a building site.

Just because it's a so called "caring" profession does not mean we can afford to pay them unlimited salaries. Sure I'd love if everyone in this country was paid 50k a year and had to work 20 hours a week, but at some point we have to decide where the limit is. I'd rather take that 1 billion a year this will cost us and put it towards pensions and taking our elderly out of poverty - are nurses here saying that they are more deserving than our older people living in houses with no heating or home care?

mountainyman · 12-04-2007 03:59PM

ronoc wrote:

So nurses refusing to work letting patients die will galvanise public opinion in their favour how exactly?

The Irish media is notoriously bleeding heart in its outlook how will deaths do the nurses any favours?

You are assuming it is a PR battle.
If your labour is vital enough you can win even if everyone hates you.

I don't see how the nurses can win if people don't die and I will support them even if people die.

mm

nesf · 12-04-2007 04:08PM

hmmm wrote:

What's high skill about it?

I don't think that you could argue that nurses are unskilled workers. Their jobs aren't exactly something that you could just walk in off the street and start doing and pick it up over a week or two.

thebman · 12-04-2007 04:43PM

Seanies32 wrote:

50/60% wage increases in the last 5 years.

And did those same cicumstances not change for everybody else? Is cost of living and house prices just a problem for nurses?

Yeah, everyone else in their sector got a 35 hour week and they didn't so circumstances did change.

What did nurses do to deserve to be paid less and work longer hours than their colleagues?

SimpleSam06 · 12-04-2007 11:48PM

Jimoslimos wrote:

Well guess what my little misinformed friend, most students have a choice of whether and where they work or not during their summer holidays.

Hold on there a minute bucko, how does introducing a completely new point make my original point misinformed? And if I could have had a summer job paying me in excess of 25k per annum back in my misspent youth, I'd be delighted. Also, just to wrap this up, if the conditions are so horrendous, with whip wielding overseers in the sweltering summer months tanning the tender young hides of student nurses to turn them into the mealy mouthed leatherbacks we see on parade outside the hospitals, why are there enormous queues to get into nursing?

Jimoslimos wrote:

And tell me, what other "industries" are you comparing for this "average industrial wage".

Erm that would be all "private" "sector" "industries", according to the central statistics office. Don't go taking my word for it though... www.cso.ie.

Jimoslimos wrote:

Nursing is a healthcare profession and as such wages should be compared with other healthcare professions, doctors, radiologists, healthcare scientists

Oh yes, nurses are different. Emma's mommy went over that with us already. What you are lumbering towards here is that even when you do check the average industrial wage to find out I am right, you still maintain I am wrong because of the context.

This actually makes me look forward to when we import nurses from south east asia en masse. And outsource the teachers too, I have a container load of teleconferencing gear looking for a new home. Its an ill wind as they say!

Whats really happening is that you tried the trick once, so you think it will work again, like the teachers. Just push the button for more money, right?

Oops.

13-04-2007 11:45AM

Infation is up again.
Since we can't devalue our currency anymore, or change intrest rates.. public spending must be brought under control.

Remember the eighties where whoever wasn't striking in the public service was either unemployed or emigrating? Thats what were are looking at here..

Archytas · 13-04-2007 12:01PM

ronoc wrote:

Remember the eighties where whoever wasn't striking in the public service was either unemployed or emigrating? Thats what were are looking at here..

I don't think we're anywhere near this yet...

K-9 · 13-04-2007 12:01PM

brim4brim wrote:

Yeah, everyone else in their sector got a 35 hour week and they didn't so circumstances did change.

What did nurses do to deserve to be paid less and work longer hours than their colleagues?

Or junior doctors either. 39 hours is bloody slave labour.

This reduction of 4 hours (10%) is going to be offset by the 10% pay increase so they really aren't going to be monetarily better off so its not going to affect their cost of living or house price affordability.

K-9 · 13-04-2007 12:11PM

Archytas wrote:

I don't think we're anywhere near this yet...

Yet...............

inflation 5.1% and the unions are hinting at more pay claims outside social partnership. Costs rising for business.

Tax receipts levelling of and the construction boom over. Interest rates rising and less disposable income for services with interest rate rises etc etc.

We're not like the eighties yet, but giving in to nurses wage demands and unions isn't going to help.

I see in the Mail today that SIPTU Nurses (15%) are working away and are not in any stoppages. They signed up to benchmarking and aren't looking for the same demands.

When I see SIPTU not coming out in support of the nurses unions it makes me wonder is union politics playing a part in this.

Archytas · 13-04-2007 12:11PM

Seanies32 wrote:

39 hours is bloody slave labour.

I work a 45 hour week not including on call time... And unless I missed a hint of sarcasm you can't call 39 hours slave labour. Not at all.

13-04-2007 12:16PM

Archytas wrote:

I don't think we're anywhere near this yet...

Inflation is running at over 5% and is increasing. For comparision the Bank of england raised intrest rates as they were approaching 3%!

One of the few ways we have left of controlling inflation is cutting public spending. On the contrary the government is spending money like it is going out of fashion. Coupled with a strike action which could trigger more pay demands from the benchmarking process colapsing. More inflation.

Manufacturing and exports are already suffering and it is going to get worse unless the government curb public spending and do more to help exports.

13-04-2007 12:22PM

Ironicly enough if the nurses get this pay increase it could well be eroded by inflation anyways at the rate inflation is going.

Apart from the fact they get inflation proof pay increases!

FlutterinBantam · 13-04-2007 12:30PM

Seanies32 wrote:

Yet...............

inflation 5.1% and the unions are hinting at more pay claims outside social partnership. Costs rising for business.

Tax receipts levelling of and the construction boom over. Interest rates rising and less disposable income for services with interest rate rises etc etc.

We're not like the eighties yet, but giving in to nurses wage demands and unions isn't going to help.

I see in the Mail today that SIPTU Nurses (15%) are working away and are not in any stoppages. They signed up to benchmarking and aren't looking for the same demands.

When I see SIPTU not coming out in support of the nurses unions it makes me wonder is union politics playing a part in this.

Doran wants to make a name for himself.

according to Prof. Drumm this morning he is not for turning.

jdivision · 13-04-2007 01:26PM

Nurses earn an average of 55,000 including overtime and allowances. Time for them to get over themselves. If they want to be paid like doctors they should have studied medicine. This healthcare professional stuff is so funny it's ridiculous - you're a professional and you work in the healthcare industry, wow that means you should be paid more. Ireland has one of the highest nurses per 1,000 population ratios in the world so they're overstaffed already. The 35 hour week was described as a desirable aspiration in that report, it wasn't stated that they should get it.

FlutterinBantam · 13-04-2007 02:23PM

I just love listening to those poor posters supporting the nurses.

what are they supporting? possibility,nay,probability of increased taxes to pay for all this and what impact will it have on the efficiency of the health service?

Zero-zilch-nada-none at all.Just more of your's and my money shovelled into a bottomless pit to pay a group of people, whom many would contend, are already more than adequately compensated monetarily and conditionally.

there are a lot of more deserving cases out there than listening to Doran and his ilk,trying to convince vulnerable and uninformed people to put the already well paid public sector on easy street.

Any politician who calls to my door better be prepared not to give in to these greedy selfish people and force my standard of living down to pay more to people who are already da*n well paid.

ellenmelon · 13-04-2007 03:14PM

FlutterinBantam wrote:

I just love listening to those poor posters supporting the nurses.

what are they supporting? possibility,nay,probability of increased taxes to pay for all this and what impact will it have on the efficiency of the health service?

Zero-zilch-nada-none at all.Just more of your's and my money shovelled into a bottomless pit to pay a group of people, whom many would contend, are already more than adequately compensated monetarily and conditionally.

there are a lot of more deserving cases out there than listening to Doran and his ilk,trying to convince vulnerable and uninformed people to put the already well paid public sector on easy street.

Any politician who calls to my door better be prepared not to give in to these greedy selfish people and force my standard of living down to pay more to people who are already da*n well paid.

you do like the sound of your own voice dont you..blahhh blaaaah blaaah. no need to get so wound up, bitter and ignorant. why are you so angry all the time?
dont come whinging here in a years time when you or someone in your family has "crap service" from a nurse. cause no one will care.

Archytas · 13-04-2007 03:25PM

ellenmelon wrote:

dont come whinging here in a years time when you or someone in your family has "crap service" from a nurse. cause no one will care.

In my experience I already get a crap service from nurses. An extra four hours off will not make the service better.

ellenmelon · 13-04-2007 03:31PM

Archytas wrote:

In my experience I already get a crap service from nurses. An extra four hours off will not make the service better.

how do you know this? are you a nurse? what hospital have you been too? did you ever consider what that nurse has had to do before she/he has treated you? i bet you havent.

Archytas · 13-04-2007 03:51PM

ellenmelon wrote:

how do you know this? are you a nurse? what hospital have you been too?

How do I know what? That I get a crap service? I don't think I have to be a nurse to know this... I go to hospital hilariously regularly. And various different hospitals.

ellenmelon wrote:

did you ever consider what that nurse has had to do before she/he has treated you? i bet you havent.

Their job??? Like everyone else? Do you complain when you've been let's say badly served by someone in KFC? Of course you do, even though they had lots things to do before they served you. Because you have a higher skilled job does that mean you're above criticism?

The Nurses.

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