The Nurses.

Fighting Irish · 11-04-2007 01:31AM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Oh yes and of course nurses get paid to go to college, forgot that one. Hmmm. So starting, out of college, its over €31,000 per annum. Really, until everyone starts getting paid 25 grand a year to go to college, your comment is hardly applicable.

nurses don't get paid to go to college, certainly not in 1st year anyways

SimpleSam06 · 11-04-2007 02:02AM

Fighting Irish wrote:

i want to read through 18 pages of gay?

:rolleyes:

Is it just me, or is the pro-nursing side starting to completely lose the plot? I think its going to be a case of "we'll do it anyway and be damned to the logic of it, try and stop us". Fair enough so, we will.

nesf · 11-04-2007 02:37AM

Fighting Irish wrote:

i want to read through 18 pages of gay?

:rolleyes:

If you don't want to bother even scanning the thread to check if your question has been already answered then don't bother complaining when people point out that it's been answered a dozen times already.

FlutterinBantam · 11-04-2007 09:45AM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Is it just me, or is the pro-nursing side starting to completely lose the plot? I think its going to be a case of "we'll do it anyway and be damned to the logic of it, try and stop us". Fair enough so, we will.

A huge % of the "pro nurses" view comes from vested interests and relatives.

No one in their right mind could justify this action and the consequences to the Public Sector pay agreements.

luckat · 11-04-2007 10:21AM

My only vested interest is that I want to be nursed by someone who's alert and happy in work, not worried out of his/her mind about paying the mortgage, and not exhausted from working long hours with huge concentration levels in heavy physical work.

If someone's going to inject .5cc of something serious into me, I don't want it to be someone so tired that .5cc looks like 5cc before his/her swimming eyes.

Both doctors and nurses need to be properly paid and work short enough hours that they get proper rest, in my (very interested) opinion as their patient.

SimpleSam06 · 11-04-2007 10:35AM

luckat wrote:

My only vested interest is that I want to be nursed by someone who's alert and happy in work, not worried out of his/her mind about paying the mortgage, and not exhausted from working long hours with huge concentration levels in heavy physical work.

If someone's going to inject .5cc of something serious into me, I don't want it to be someone so tired that .5cc looks like 5cc before his/her swimming eyes.

Both doctors and nurses need to be properly paid and work short enough hours that they get proper rest, in my (very interested) opinion as their patient.

Can I just shorten that load of nonsense you just posted there to "WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?!?" Trying to play the emotional fiddle strings, something I've watched the pro nursing side do again and again and again, only ensures that everyone else sees your argument for the bollocks it is. It really means you have no other leg to stand on.

thebitterpill · 11-04-2007 10:57AM

I'm a doctor and I've worked 100+ hours in a week. I've worked 36 hour shifts with maybe an hour's cat nap in between. I've also done a consequetive on site 56 hour shift (though I did get to sleep a bit in between while on that call).

Your performence definately goes down after a point, its well researched and documented as dangerous to be working those kind of hours for both medical staff and patients.

That's why the EU working time directive exists. But I'd give an arm and a leg to be able to work a 39 hour week.

Honestly, there is no evidence to support that a 39 hour week is prohibitive in terms of performence or efficiency. Again I'm not against a 35 hour week for nurses, but lets be clear on this, those four extra hours are not going to affect their ability to do their jobs in any way whatsoever.

Bazookatone · 11-04-2007 03:52PM

The Irish Health System is in a serious state of disrepair and disorganisation. Huge amounts of money are being squandered and misspent, and people spend days on trollies.

Of all the people to blame for this, I reckon the nurses are pretty far down the list. I don't agree with nurses having a 35 hour week, but, in a perfect world, I think they would be paid above the average industrial wage, because nursing is a skilled profession.

Frankly, I don't think the majority of nurses would mind working 40 hour weeks and being paid an average wage, if the system they worked in was not bogged down in beaurocracy and needless extra levels of management.

This strike is a symptom of a larger problem with the health service.

mountainyman · 11-04-2007 04:02PM

PeakOutput wrote:

if you are stupid enough to think nationalisation would solve the nurses problem you really need to wake up and smell the disinfectant.............lets see what would happen

The health service is nationalised you turnip. I mean if your boss won't let you work a 30 hour week he gets nine grams in the back of the head, the business is nationalised and you all work on without the dead weight of the plutocrat bringing the whole thing down. Nationalise everything and kill all bosses.

MM

PeakOutput · 11-04-2007 06:02PM

mountainyman wrote:

I agree.

35 hour week and 10% pay rise across the boards and if empolyers don't liek it kill them and nationalise the business.

MM

so what point where you trying to make if it already is nationalised???

edited other post

The health service is nationalised you turnip. I mean if your boss won't let you work a 30 hour week he gets nine grams in the back of the head, the business is nationalised and you all work on without the dead weight of the plutocrat bringing the whole thing down. Nationalise everything and kill all bosses.

i assume your joking

SimpleSam06 · 11-04-2007 06:09PM

Bazookatone wrote:

Of all the people to blame for this, I reckon the nurses are pretty far down the list. I don't agree with nurses having a 35 hour week, but, in a perfect world, I think they would be paid above the average industrial wage, because nursing is a skilled profession.

Sorry now but the rains of ignorance are just inexcusable, to the extent that they are almost wilful. Can you just flip back a few pages through the discussion like a good lad and read the comments there. Nurses start out of college at above average industrial wage. Their wages increase rapidly on an annual basis after that. And just who exactly are you going to blame besides the nurses? Its the nurses who are striking, no one else! Gah.

PeakOutput · 11-04-2007 06:22PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Sorry now but the rains of ignorance are just inexcusable, to the extent that they are almost wilful. Can you just flip back a few pages through the discussion like a good lad and read the comments there. Nurses start out of college at above average industrial wage. Their wages increase rapidly on an annual basis after that. And just who exactly are you going to blame besides the nurses? Its the nurses who are striking, no one else! Gah.

in an ideal world and an ideal health service we should be able to give them the shorter week and still have a great service..............its the governments fault we dont have that.........its the nurses responsibility to realise we dont have that and not to make up ridicolous claims

billy the squid · 11-04-2007 09:49PM

They are not going to do themselves any favours by targeting small towns like what they did in Clonmel today.

Why on earth did they close both hospitals in Clonmel when they could have easily spread out, geographically, their work stoppage.

They are going to do the same in Roscommon on Friday.

11-04-2007 10:25PM

mountainyman wrote:

The simple fact is that people have to die for this strike to work. If the nurses won't let people die then they will lose.

I support the nurses and I will support them when a few smelly coffin dodgers stop dodging the coffin. With the grossly inflated state pension these days they will be doing us all a favour.

MM

So nurses refusing to work letting patients die will galvanise public opinion in their favour how exactly?

The Irish media is notoriously bleeding heart in its outlook how will deaths do the nurses any favours?

Wishbone Ash · 11-04-2007 11:30PM

billy the squid wrote:

Why on earth did they close both hospitals in Clonmel when they could have easily spread out, geographically, their work stoppage

The psychiatric hospital and general hospital in Clonmel are quite close AFAIK and it was probably done so the protesters could almalgamate as one.

PS - they didn't close both hospitals. They were operated, for one hour, with night duty staffing compliment (i.e. the level at which the HSE deem to be adequate for running a hospital at night).

sparksfly · 12-04-2007 12:26AM

The teachers are jumping on the nurses bandwagon. If they both get what they are looking for the total cost will be huge, the rest of us can forget about any further tax reductions or benifit increases, do we all agree to that? Having seen the nurses in action during very frequent and prolonged visits to Tallaght hospital this year, many of them appear to be having an easy ride and certainly not overworked in any way. Fight it all the way.

Blush_01 · 12-04-2007 01:21AM

ronoc wrote:

So nurses refusing to work letting patients die will galvanise public opinion in their favour how exactly?

The Irish media is notoriously bleeding heart in its outlook how will deaths do the nurses any favours?

That is the greatest statement of untruth I've seen so far here. Even during "work stoppage", total cessation of work in any other profession remember, the nurses still had enough staff in place to carry out vital services. The reason South Tipperary's hospitals were targeted is because the close proximity of the hospitals to eachother allowed both the general and psychiatric nurses to come together and strike, I'd imagine. Clonmel was one of the top hospitals in term of hygiene and care in a survey undertaken within the last 12 months. Why not reduce the productivity of a superior hospital in order to show the impact it makes. You do understand the point of industrial action, don't you?

As for the notoriously bleeding heart nature of the Irish media - you're having a laugh, aren't you?

As for your point, Sparksfly, there's a difference between a group who have benefitted from benchmarking (i.e. the teachers) and those who have found benchmarking to have neglected their (quite legitimate, imho) claims (i.e. the nurses). Benchmarking is only part of the process in place for addressing problems, it's not the be all and end all.

K-9 · 12-04-2007 01:53AM

Blush_01 wrote:

Even during "work stoppage", total cessation of work in any other profession remember, the nurses still had enough staff in place to carry out vital services.

So the hospitals got on grand without the nurses! So we only need night staff levels on during the day!

Well then reduce, the staffing levels to night level all the time then!

So the nurses argument that patients will not suffer by the work stoppages is true. Vital services are being carried out sure, no change there then! What about the non vital services that weren't carried out ?

Blush_01 wrote:

Clonmel was one of the top hospitals in term of hygiene and care in a survey undertaken within the last 12 months. Why not reduce the productivity of a superior hospital in order to show the impact it makes. You do understand the point of industrial action, don't you?

I've heard Clonmel and Kilkenny where great examples lately of how efficient hospitals can be ran? What is it they are doing that others aren't?

ellenmelon · 12-04-2007 04:35AM

ExoduS 18.11 wrote:

Your of the opinion that nurses are Money Grabbing Bastards..? Glad to see the discussion has turned into derogatory bull**** in record time. My mother has been working as a nurse for 35 years, and let me tell you, she has done far more hours than 35 a week. At the moment she is doing only what she is paid to do. For example she is a Psychiatric nurse, so she doesnt answer the phones or do the office work that a secretary should be employed to do. She is regularily switched from hostel to hospital (which she has been threatened with knifes needles and what not 4 times during a ten year period) due to lack of security in these places. So frankly i can imagine why she is a tiny bit pissed off at the moment. And FlutterinBantam look at me i can put irrelevant words in bold too

great isnt it? they wouldnt say it to their faces i can tell you that.i find thats often what happens when people dont have anything constructive to bring to a debate/conversation;they start on the personal attacks. its not their fault theyre ignorant. someone said earlier We can't read there minds and debate about what they might be thinking they really want. All we can see is the demands they make and judge them according to the current situation. thats the problem right there. a majority of people on this thread havent made the effort to find out whats actually going on in the hospitals. they are quoting the media as if it was gospel (whereas most of the time the irish media is slammed for its bias all over boards.) and repeating the same b*ollocks over and over.
its interesting that its been said that nurses dont care about patients by going on strike. why the heck would they go into nursing in the first place!! nursing is the most hands on caring profession in the health service in my opinion.
i agree with you when you say your mum hardly does a 35 hour week. my mum is the same; on a "normal week" (if you could call it that),ie when she was on days she was pretty much over 40 hours. going into nights which she had to do,i think at least a week out of every month, she was doing more like 48 hours over 4 days. we never see her as if she's not at work, she's sleeping.
this is not a new topic to a lot of people in the nursing profession..in ireland and other countries. the health service in ireland have put their fingers in their ears, singing away to themselves with their big pay packets for a bit too long and are all shocked when employees are sick of the crap conditions that they work under.

SimpleSam06 · 12-04-2007 08:32AM

Blush_01 wrote:

That is the greatest statement of untruth I've seen so far here. Even during "work stoppage", total cessation of work in any other profession remember, the nurses still had enough staff in place to carry out vital services.

I'm fairly sure he was mocking the muppet.

ellenmelon wrote:

why the heck would they go into nursing in the first place!! nursing is the most hands on caring profession in the health service in my opinion.

And the sweet pay package, overtime deals, very high in-college salaries, benefits and gold plated pensions don't hurt either...

ellenmelon wrote:

my mum is the same... she was pretty much over 40 hours... she was doing more like 48 hours over 4 days. we never see her as if she's not at work, she's sleeping.

Says you. More unsubstantiated heartstring appeals. I mean for all we know you could be a 42 year old bus driver with a hairy back, sitting at home in his boxers, stirring the muck on teh intarwebs for his own twisted, twisted pleasures.

Do yourself a favour and come up with a link to say that the majority of the nurses in Ireland do in excess of 9 hours overtime on a regular basis and maybe I'll concede you have a point. Of course the point wouldn't be that nurses would need higher pay or a shorter week however, its that they need more nurses.

So even if you are right, you didn't help support the nurses' case very much.

Edit: Edited for maths!

Wishbone Ash · 12-04-2007 08:48AM

Seanies32 wrote:

Vital services are being carried out sure, no change there then! What about the non vital services that weren't carried out ?

The non-vital nursing duties relating to patient care would have been carried out prior to, or following the one hour stoppage.

Wishbone Ash · 12-04-2007 08:54AM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

for all we know you could be a 42 year old bus driver with a hairy back, sitting at home in his boxers, stirring the muck

That's really constructive SimpleSam06. :rolleyes:

mickoneill30 · 12-04-2007 08:58AM

Have the teachers scuppered the nurses now? I hear they're making noises about getting 10% too. I know they're totally unrelated issues but I'm sure the government thinks it's looking at the start of a slippery slope. Who's next?

FlutterinBantam · 12-04-2007 08:59AM

I was listening to Doran on MI this morning, imo the guy is rattled and beginning to lose it.

wheresthebeef · 12-04-2007 09:03AM

And the sweet pay package, overtime deals, very high in-college salaries, benefits and gold plated pensions don't hurt either...

Pay Package is not all that sweet. It's not in line with other public servants i.e Social Care Workers, Student Nurses in their fourth year work an 8 month roster where they are paid 11.30 an hour for a 39 hour week, what benefits????? please outline these supposed benefits??? and Pensions are same for all public sector workers, why not take a jab at them. Can i also remind people that a lot of nurses, especially newly qualified nurses are working on 2 year temporary contracts, and do not have "jobs for life" as is the case in the Civil Service.

FlutterinBantam · 12-04-2007 09:11AM

can I also remind people that in the pvt sector, people can be working for a lot less than 11.30 per hr and can actually lose their jobs if the business is doing badly.

Imagine that!!

SimpleSam06 · 12-04-2007 09:29AM

wheresthebeef wrote:

Pay Package is not all that sweet. It's not in line with other public servants i.e Social Care Workers, Student Nurses in their fourth year work an 8 month roster where they are paid 11.30 an hour for a 39 hour week,

Look at this, this man is telling me the pay package isn't that sweet, then proceeds to tell me that the pay while still in college is not that great. Well guess what, my little overpaid friend, most people don't get paid to go to college! And straight out of college, nurses get paid at or more than the average industrial wage. Compare that with other degree level college graduates, in particular in the private sector.

The pay increases annually then by leaps and bounds, excluding pension benefits. A private sector employee who wanted a similar pension would have to save 30% of their salary for life.

wheresthebeef wrote:

and Pensions are same for all public sector workers, why not take a jab at them.

Oh I have, many times and very publicly; almost the entire public sector is a millstone around the neck of this country, and I inform them of this fact at every opportunity. This latest farce from the nurses is just another example. Happily it appears they have bitten off much more than they can chew at this stage. I actually hope those idiot teachers leap on the bandwagon as well, that will tip the boat right over.

wheresthebeef wrote:

Can i also remind people that a lot of nurses, especially newly qualified nurses are working on 2 year temporary contracts, and do not have "jobs for life" as is the case in the Civil Service.

You wouldn't have any figures for nurse turnover, or nurses who have been fired or forcibly removed from nursing, by any chance?

12-04-2007 09:31AM

Blush_01 wrote:

That is the greatest statement of untruth I've seen so far here. Even during "work stoppage", total cessation of work in any other profession remember, the nurses still had enough staff in place to carry out vital services.

Learn to read champ. :rolleyes:
MountainyMan said for the strike to work people have to die. He is on the nurses side. I asked him why, not said it as fact.

And yes the Irish media, especially the Indo will have a field day if they find any tragedies as they see caused by this dispute.

hmmm · 12-04-2007 09:32AM

wheresthebeef wrote:

Student Nurses in their fourth year work an 8 month roster where they are paid 11.30 an hour for a 39 hour week, what benefits?????

I'd love to have been paid 22 grand a year while a student. It took me about 4 years after having qualified and after getting my degree to reach 22k, there's a lot of people in this country who have been working 20 years and don't reach that much a year.

FlutterinBantam · 12-04-2007 10:04AM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Look at this, this man is telling me the pay package isn't that sweet, then proceeds to tell me that the pay while still in college is not that great. Well guess what, my little overpaid friend, most people don't get paid to go to college! And straight out of college, nurses get paid at or more than the average industrial wage. Compare that with other degree level college graduates, in particular in the private sector.

The pay increases annually then by leaps and bounds, excluding pension benefits. A private sector employee who wanted a similar pension would have to save 30% of their salary for life.

Oh I have, many times and very publicly; almost the entire public sector is a millstone around the neck of this country, and I inform them of this fact at every opportunity. This latest farce from the nurses is just another example. Happily it appears they have bitten off much more than they can chew at this stage. I actually hope those idiot teachers leap on the bandwagon as well, that will tip the boat right over.

You wouldn't have any figures for nurse turnover, or nurses who have been fired or forcibly removed from nursing, by any chance?

Well said son.... Articulating what any person with a modicum of common sense would say.

Well done.

The Nurses.

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