Betfair Explained

wb · 07-06-2006 11:13am

Hi Philbert.

MasterK sums it up there really.
It takes time and a lot of market watching to learn how trends go, and then still, very often, it does not work out.
I'm afraid there is no set pattern, but if you concentrate on the top horse in the betting, in the last 10 minutes before the off, the prices will usually swing both ways slightly before settling down a bit.
While learning the trade (pun intended

) you should stick to short priced horses (under 4.0) becuase you WILL lose money learning. When you get more confident, you can up the stakes a bit.
The most important thing when trading is to have 'bail out' points. EVEN IF THIS MEANS ACCEPTING A LOSS. Losing sometimes is part of trading. Personally, my 'bail out' point is 3 price rises. For example, if I back a horse at 2.14, and the price starts rising, I will bail out as soon as the price hits 2.20 and accept the loss. Don't hang around waiting for the price to fall back down because very often, it wont, and you dont want to be left with a bet that you did not want. Remember, if you are using say €20 as your stake, you will be only making a few cent per race, so you simply cant afford to lose ten or twenty euro, as it would take dozens of sucessfull trades to recoup.

To trade within the last 10 minutes, you will need to get a bot (betangel basic is free and easy to use once you get the hang of it) and dont let it carry into in-running because this is a minefield.

Hope this helps. Feel free to ask any more questions

TwistsAndTurns · 04-07-2006 12:34pm

Just started to play for fun on betfair but going to open an account at the end of the week. Thanks for all the good info, its explained in easy man`s terms, nice and simple. Will be using this thread for references in the future for laying as I didnt understand it fully. Thanks for all the info again.

masterK · 04-07-2006 12:35pm

eirebhoys wrote:

Just started to play for fun on betfair but going to open an account at the end of the week. Thanks for all the good info, its explained in easy man`s terms, nice and simple. Will be using this thread for references in the future for laying as I didnt understand it fully. Thanks for all the info again.

Make sure you use one of the bonus codes signing up to get the €30 free.

wb · 04-07-2006 4:38pm

eirebhoys wrote:

Just started to play for fun on betfair but going to open an account at the end of the week. Thanks for all the good info, its explained in easy man`s terms, nice and simple. Will be using this thread for references in the future for laying as I didnt understand it fully. Thanks for all the info again.

Thanks for the kind words eirebhoys. I lost close to €1000 in my first few months of betfair, mainly from jumping in where it was too deep, and not understanding what I was doing. While it was a costly mistake, I learned some very valuable lessons and now consider it money well spent, in a funny sort of way. Most of the mistakes people make happen every day on betfair, and are avoidable. Hopefully this thread may save someone a couple of euro sometime. Good luck with the laying - be careful, and don't be afraid to ask any 'stupid' questions on the forum. It can be difficult when starting out, but extremely enjoyabe too.

DeadParrot · 12-07-2006 9:15am

Keyzer wrote:

I'm confused now...

I just went onto to betfair and setup a bet with the lays odds it gave me...

Flamingo Guitar
You are betting against Flamingo Guitar
Backers odds 5.4
Backers stake €43

Payout €232.20
Liability -€189.20

Do i get 232 back if it doesnt win?
How come your lays are only doubled?

I know nothing about betting...

Keyzer, have a quick look at the betfair sticky on the main horseracing page.
Basically, you are the bookie, you are putting UP €43 for someone to back against and are offering them whatever odds you want.
e.g, you and yer mate bet each other a tenner that Robin1982 is the devil incarnate (or a spy from betfair trying to disuade us all to cash in;) )
However, you are that sure that he's the devil that you offer 10/1 to your mate for his tenner
Thus, you have a potential payout of his tenner PLUS 10/1...or thereabouts

Just read the sticky its much better than the above

KamiKazi · 12-07-2006 9:52am

ok you have me convinced, you are a genius.

how about todays bets?

KamiKazi · 12-07-2006 10:51am

just a quick question, i tried to pay money into my betfair account using 3v, but it says "Your bank has declined the transaction. Please refer to your card issuer for further details. ".

but i this isnt possible as my bank arent involved with 3v cards

smiling_time · 12-07-2006 11:05am

quick q! how do you lay the loser using boyles sports online?

wb · 12-07-2006 11:07am

KamiKazi wrote:

just a quick question, i tried to pay money into my betfair account using 3v, but it says "Your bank has declined the transaction. Please refer to your card issuer for further details. ".

but i this isnt possible as my bank arent involved with 3v cards

I dont think that they accept 3g vouchers. There are other ways to fund the account though such as bank transfer, cheque etc. (see the 'betfair explained' sticky)

wb · 12-07-2006 11:08am

smiling_time wrote:

quick q! how do you lay the loser using boyles sports online?

You cant. You will need to open an account with one of the betting exchanges such as betfair or betdaq to lay horses.

KamiKazi · 12-07-2006 11:10am

does betdaq except 3v vouchers?

wb · 12-07-2006 11:25am

KamiKazi wrote:

does betdaq except 3v vouchers?

I'm not sure as I don't really use it. I don't think so though. I'm sure they have a section on their site explaining how to fund your account.

Keyzer · 12-07-2006 1:07pm

DeadParrot wrote:

Keyzer, have a quick look at the betfair sticky on the main horseracing page.
Basically, you are the bookie, you are putting UP €43 for someone to back against and are offering them whatever odds you want.
e.g, you and yer mate bet each other a tenner that Robin1982 is the devil incarnate (or a spy from betfair trying to disuade us all to cash in;) )
However, you are that sure that he's the devil that you offer 10/1 to your mate for his tenner
Thus, you have a potential payout of his tenner PLUS 10/1...or thereabouts

Just read the sticky its much better than the above

Thanks.
But how come when crumbs lays for 43 euro he only gets his 43 plus another 43 back? Should he get more depending on the laying odds?

Crumbs · 12-07-2006 1:32pm

Keyzer wrote:

Thanks.
But how come when crumbs lays for 43 euro he only gets his 43 plus another 43 back? Should he get more depending on the laying odds?

First, think about backing a horse. If I wanted to back a horse at odds of 4/1 and I wanted to put €43 on it, then I am risking losing my €43 for a potential gain of €172.

Now, for laying, think of being on the other side of the above transaction. Someone else is going to risk their €43 for a potential gain of €172 and we are going to accomodate them. That's what laying is. So I lay the horse at odds of 4/1 for a stake of €43, which means I have a potential gain of €43 but a risk of losing €172. The odds don't affect what I might gain by laying, only what I might lose.

KamiKazi · 12-07-2006 1:54pm

im registered on betfair, i have a 3v card registered but that doesnt work so how do i register another card ( laser)?

Keyzer · 12-07-2006 2:09pm

Crumbs wrote:

First, think about backing a horse. If I wanted to back a horse at odds of 4/1 and I wanted to put €43 on it, then I am risking losing my €43 for a potential gain of €172.

Now, for laying, think of being on the other side of the above transaction. Someone else is going to risk their €43 for a potential gain of €172 and we are going to accomodate them. That's what laying is. So I lay the horse at odds of 4/1 for a stake of €43, which means I have a potential gain of €43 but a risk of losing €172. The odds don't affect what I might gain by laying, only what I might lose.

gotcha... so whatever you lay for, you only ever get paid what you double what you laid...

dvdfan · 12-07-2006 4:47pm

I had a similar problem with the 3v voucher, and as far as i know this is the reason. You will transferring the money via paypal(3v visa card) to your betfair account. If your primary email address on the paypal account is not the exact same as the email address on your betfair account it will not work. I dont know why and it dosent make sense and trying to change the primary email address dosent seem to work.

for anyone who doesnt know about 3v vouchers see www.3v.ie

KamiKazi · 12-07-2006 5:38pm

nah its cool, got my laser working

wb · 12-07-2006 9:31pm

Keyzer wrote:

gotcha... so whatever you lay for, you only ever get paid what you double what you laid...

I don't really get what you mean Keyzer. Laying is like being the bookie. Simple as that.

In a normal situation, If you backed a horse at 5/1 using €10 and the horse wins, the bookie owes you €50 profit plus your stake. If the horse loses, he keeps it.

It works the same when laying. If you lay (be the bookie) a horse at 5/1 with a €10 backers stake and the horse wins, you owe out €50 plus stake from your betfair account. If it loses, you keep the stake. You are simply acting like a bookie.

Bateman · 18-07-2006 10:19am

And to reinterate, depositing with Laser is a lot more beneficial than with Visa. Taking each deposit on an individual basis, the deposit fees may not seem like much, but like everything else on betfair, they all add up.

Another news snippet: betfair have finally buckled to pressure from a small number of regular users, and added Eircom League First Division Match Odds markets, and already there has been healthy trading on a number of key games.

[nicK] · 10-08-2006 2:17pm

have they cracked down on the $4 minimum bet 'hack'?

wanted to stick a euro or two on some long shots in the golf.. 4euro is too much though..

robfitz · 10-08-2006 5:43pm

[nicK] wrote:

have they cracked down on the $4 minimum bet 'hack'?

No it's still working. I've used it a couple of times today already.

wb · 10-08-2006 8:53pm

[nicK] wrote:

have they cracked down on the $4 minimum bet 'hack'?

wanted to stick a euro or two on some long shots in the golf.. 4euro is too much though..

As rob says, you can still do it.

BUT, betfair have done a site update yesterday, and people are still having problems with the site (me included) so that may be the problem. Make sure you clear your temp. internet files etc. and see if the site is working ok then.

wb · 25-09-2006 10:43am

I know it won't mean a hell of a lot, but it's nice to get my name associated with betfair all the same!

If you click on 'betfair academy' on the left, then 'betfair accredited trainers'

Scroll down near to the end, and there I am (Wayne Bailey)

http://help.betfair.com/index.en.html?

Bateman · 08-10-2006 2:00pm

wbailey wrote:

I know it won't mean a hell of a lot, but it's nice to get my name associated with betfair all the same!

If you click on 'betfair academy' on the left, then 'betfair accredited trainers'

Scroll down near to the end, and there I am (Wayne Bailey)

http://help.betfair.com/index.en.html?

They told me it was full. Yet there are only 4 or 5 Ireland-based people listed now?

Should I assume that they looked at your P&L before allocating places?

Topcat101 · 10-10-2006 1:01pm

Anyone here use BOTS to compare odds from different sites, I'm mostly interested in arbing bets backing and laying off and keeping the difference between the two.....

wb · 10-10-2006 1:19pm

Bateman wrote:

They told me it was full. Yet there are only 4 or 5 Ireland-based people listed now?

Should I assume that they looked at your P&L before allocating places?

I would guess that this is the case. I have 3 betfair accounts. One is for my proper betting, one is for trading and one is for 'fun' . The fun account is not showing much profit, and I did not get an e-mail sent for this account, where as I got 1 each for the other accounts. That said, it was full on the day, so you may have been to late. There were around 15 people there that day. Perhaps everyone did not pass the exam at the end, as it was quite tricky.

wb · 10-10-2006 1:22pm

Topcat101 wrote:

Anyone here use BOTS to compare odds from different sites, I'm mostly interested in arbing bets backing and laying off and keeping the difference between the two.....

Because of time constraints, I don't arb much, but from what I've heard, VHF is the best there is (Value Horse Finder). I know a couple of people who use it, so pm me if you need a review. It costs around £97stg though.

wb · 11-11-2006 8:26pm

Betfair 'Starting Prices'

(for want of a better word!)

Anyone who likes to paper trial backing or laying systems will know how annoying it is to try to work out what the betfair price would have been. (if you are checking your results after the days racing)

Some people add 10-20% to the SP, but its a bit hit and miss, which makes it inaccurate.

Betfairs historical comes in handy here. You can check how much was matched on each selection and at what prices. It comes in a spreadsheet, so you can get an average matched price, or check what the betfair price was just before the off etc.

You will need to have earned at least 100 betfair points before they let you use it:

http://data.betfair.com/

wb · 05-01-2007 3:15pm

Auto Betfair.

This is still on trial by betfair, but is fully functional to use. This really is an excellnt tool for those who cant sit at the PC all day, yet need to place bets close to the off. Basically, you can set up all your bets the evening before/in the morning, and it will place them automatically for you at whatever time you set. It can leave orders, or take the best price available.

With betfair, (especially with long-shots or the place market) the best odds are very often to be found close to the off. Up until now, anyone who was not at a pc all day would have to try use betfair mobile or else settle for the morning prices. Best of all, its free. There have been bots out there doing this for some time, and all cost a fair few quid - so this is an excellent devellopment.

It can be downloaded along with a user guide here:

http://labs.betfair.com/labs.aspx

gamb1or · 18-01-2007 7:49am

Do bank of ireland charge much if you want to deposit money in your betfair account from your bank account?

3v cards don't allow gambling, right?

wb · 18-01-2007 12:48pm

gamb1or wrote:

Do bank of ireland charge much if you want to deposit money in your betfair account from your bank account?

3v cards don't allow gambling, right?

I'm not sure how much each bank charges to be honest. Every one is different. Give them a call and as how much a bank transfer is. 3v cards are not allowed.

TOm Kelly · 19-01-2007 4:57pm

exchanged

keepitquiet · 26-01-2007 12:13pm

new to betfair and this post has been very helpful:) however i have two questions. if say £100 is availible at 11s (10/1) and i bet £10 will i get a payout of £110 or will i only be able to get a payout of £100(so id have to bet £9 to get £99 back)?

Also, if say theres £100 availible and i bet £10 but whilst i am making the bet the amount availible falls to £50 what happens? will i recieve £5 back or will my bet be left to be matched? cheers

wb · 26-01-2007 2:05pm

Hi keepitquiet, glad the thread was of help. I presume you are talking about backing right?

keepitquiet wrote:

if say £100 is availible at 11s (10/1) and i bet £10 will i get a payout of £110 or will i only be able to get a payout of £100(so id have to bet £9 to get £99 back)?

The amount available in the blue box is the total amount available that someone can use as their stake. So, if there is £100 available for backers, this means that there is £1000 in the pool behind the scenes in case that horse wins.

If you backed the horse with £10 @ 11.0, your profit will be £100 should the horse win.

After you place your bet, £100 will be taken from the potential payout pool that is held behind the scenes (in case you win it) - and there should be £90 left in the blue box. (Very often, the prices go up and down quickly so the money available may have changed by the time the bet is processed)

keepitquiet wrote:

Also, if say theres £100 availible and i bet £10 but whilst i am making the bet the amount availible falls to £50 what happens? will i recieve £5 back or will my bet be left to be matched? cheers

If there is £50 still available, your tenner will be matched. (There will be enough money behind the scenes to cover your bet if it wins)

However, say the amount available drops to £7 for example:

£7 of your bet will be matched, and the remaining £3 will be left up there until

A. You cancel the remaining £3
B. You lower your price to get the rest of the bet matched
C. A layer accepts your price

It's kinda hard to put it down here, so feel free to pm me if you need it explained on msn or anything.

keepitquiet · 26-01-2007 9:57pm

no thats great cheers. i thought that say £100 meant that there was a possible £100 to gain not to stake. u wouldnt have thought theyd save you doing the maths:rolleyes: so my second question meant exactly wat u answered in the second part. cheers wb, im mint with betfair now

_Kaiser_ · 04-03-2007 3:40pm

Quick question..

I had/still have a Betfair account that I last used about a year or two ago up until they started asking for all sorts of bank statements/ID's to be faxed to them. As I thought they were asking for a bit much to be honest, and I only occasionally place bets anyway (on the big events mostly), I didn't bother.

Is it still the case then that they require all this information? (ladbrokes/paddy power don't seem to be concerned for example). What's my best option.. e-mail/fax them everything they want, or just open a new account?

Cheers.

wb · 04-03-2007 9:47pm

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Quick question..

I had/still have a Betfair account that I last used about a year or two ago up until they started asking for all sorts of bank statements/ID's to be faxed to them. As I thought they were asking for a bit much to be honest, and I only occasionally place bets anyway (on the big events mostly), I didn't bother.

Is it still the case then that they require all this information? (ladbrokes/paddy power don't seem to be concerned for example). What's my best option.. e-mail/fax them everything they want, or just open a new account?

Cheers.

I'd try a new account. I don't recall being asked for that info (Victor Chandler asked me alright). I opened a new betfair account recently to trade with, and I did not have to provide this information.

TOm Kelly · 07-03-2007 11:55am

WB - Re. betting in running ... if betfair refreshes every 20 seconds - how is there time to lay and place bets after coming over the last .. or with a furlong to go on the flat ... that is one third of the time it takes to run five furlongs ... what am I missing? Thanks.

Robin1982 · 07-03-2007 1:20pm

Betfair refreshes the browser (the display) every 30 seconds - the system is a continuous market (it is working constantly in the background). There are freely available Betfair tools that can refresh the display every x number of seconds/milliseconds if you so desire. Obviously, for in-running betting, this is recommended.

wb · 07-03-2007 2:13pm

TOm Kelly wrote:

WB - Re. betting in running ... if betfair refreshes every 20 seconds - how is there time to lay and place bets after coming over the last .. or with a furlong to go on the flat ... that is one third of the time it takes to run five furlongs ... what am I missing? Thanks.

Hi Tom. You will need to download a bot.

After you download a bot, you will be presented with a screen similar to the normal betfair one, but it has extra capabilities.

Betangel is one such bot, and they work in conjunction with betfair, so it's completely safe. The free version http://www.betangel.com/products/BA/bab.htm allows 1 second refresh rates, and one click betting - .ie. no confirmation screen/delays etc. (both essential for IR betting).

Once you download it, tick the boxes that offer these facilities and you are ready to go.

TOm Kelly · 07-03-2007 3:48pm

Thanks Robin and WB ... that explains it ... so you would not have this facility @ a 'remote' computer eg internet cafe.

I have been particularly looking at Betfair for golf betting - as there can be very big price advantages ... particularly on longshots ... and of course betting in running gives you a chance to cover .. particularly on a Sunday night - if you are still in contention.

wb · 08-03-2007 11:01am

TOm Kelly wrote:

Thanks Robin and WB ... that explains it ... so you would not have this facility @ a 'remote' computer eg internet cafe.

.

It only takes a couple of minutes to download, so depending on how strict the internet cafe is, you could download it each time you wanted to use it.

However, you really need to be watching the event to back IR.

Paddy Irishman · 12-03-2007 3:24pm

Hi, I'm thinking of opening a Betfair account in time for Cheltenham tomorrow. Can those of you who are already members tell me what, if any, correspondence Betfair send you by post? I would like to have the option to remain exempt from receiving postal communication from Betfair (an option I had when joining Betdaq). I've read their privacy policy and it sounds too much like hard work to have to go making requests under the Data Protection Act to London in order to have your privacy observed. Kaiser2000 raised the question of sending them identification etc. This I understand is part of their "know your customer" checks. As an Irish client where does this information go to? I would like to be 100% certain that my personal details are safe before joining. Thanks for your help, Paddy Irishman.

fozz · 12-03-2007 3:51pm

I have a question regarding VISA card withdrawals.
I initially (last year) lodged £100 into my BF account.
I then went into profit by a few hundred and went to withdraw some but BF only allowed me to withdraw that same £100 back to my VISA card.
They say that any other withdrawals will have to be out to my bank account?

Is that true?

wb · 12-03-2007 5:22pm

fozz wrote:

I have a question regarding VISA card withdrawals.
I initially (last year) lodged £100 into my BF account.
I then went into profit by a few hundred and went to withdraw some but BF only allowed me to withdraw that same £100 back to my VISA card.
They say that any other withdrawals will have to be out to my bank account?

Is that true?

You could e-mail them, but I'm pretty sure that they changed the rules last year and no-longer allow withdrawls to your credit card. You can order a cheque (free) or get a bank transfer to your normal account (bank charges may apply).

zuutroy · 19-03-2007 7:10pm

Started playing for real money (though with very low stakes) with my first system there about 10 days ago. Through 40 bets, I've won 34 for a profit on the horses and my bank value is currently at 300% of its original value. I've also had a bit of success on Basketball, Soccer and Rugby. At the moment I'm really just learning how the markets move. How many bets would you reckon before its statistically believable as good system?
Also, its quiet reliant on the excellent Fairbot software and my free trial is nearly up

Have looked at betangel and really dont like the feel of it.

wb · 20-03-2007 12:02pm

zuutroy wrote:

How many bets would you reckon before its statistically believable as good system?
.

Are you talking about backing, laying or trading?

zuutroy · 20-03-2007 12:31pm

Sorry, for horses it's mostly in-running backing at certain market conditions (which I'm still trying to finalise), and for other sports it's some trading (doesnt work too well) and some straight backing, again at certain conditions. I suppose its hard for you to tell given that its a bit of a mish-mash of different techniques and different sports.

wb · 20-03-2007 12:58pm

It's hard to say really. It depends how many 'qualifiers' you are coming up with per day. I usually lay 10-20 horses per day, and record everything I can about the horse/track/distance/going etc. in a spreadsheet. I'll review after every 1000 lays, and try to spot trends that are costing me money (for example, I was not making any money on cl6 handicaps, so they got dropped). Backing wise, I usually review the spreadsheets at around 200 bets. I don't record much when trading - I'm more into 'scalping' the market and moving on to the next one. When trading, I'm not concerned about the horse, going etc, just the price movements.

Betfair Explained

Comments