Polish School In Dublin

Elmo · 05-09-2006 11:03PM

It seems you have little to say other than misconcieved preconceptions.

Oh F you. Sorry Mods I didn't want to reply to this.

In the 1990's Ireland was not taking on enough nursing staff. Many nurses went to the UK for training. It was their intention to return to Ireland after training in the UK. Of course both the trainee nurses and the government where under that misconcieved preconception. And hence now we haven't enough nurses.

Really? Like?

Like what what does that mean. ????

????
If you want to know I voted no in the Citzenship referendum and have issues surround the National ID card for all non-EU citizens in Ireland. (both are off the topic)
I honestly don't want to defend myself in relation to how anti-racist I am.

Yet you feel the need to rant yet don't seem to understand the pramatics of this school.

I just would be concerned for their childrens level of English and also of the misconcieved preconceptions that they (their children) will return home. [EDIT] no relavant sorry [/EDIT]

And I hope that explains my position on the matter.

If we do what will our leprecauhens look like in 50 years?

LOL

Terry · 05-09-2006 11:05PM

Diogenes wrote:

Thats an assumption it's not a proven fact, the majority of Poles want to return to Poland after a few years and theres no reason to suspect that won't happen.

and you know this, how?

Terry · 05-09-2006 11:08PM

i'm only going to say this once: stop bitching at each other. think before you post. if you don't have anything constructive to add, do not post in this thread.

Diogenes · 06-09-2006 12:46AM

Elmo wrote:

Oh F you. Sorry Mods I didn't want to reply to this.

And thats not a insult?

In the 1990's Ireland was not taking on enough nursing staff. Many nurses went to the UK for training. It was their intention to return to Ireland after training in the UK. Of course both the trainee nurses and the government where under that misconcieved preconception. And hence now we haven't enough nurses.

Thats a very specific situation involving a very specific skillset. Now the issue is english hospitals taking 3rd world workers. Why didn't the nurses return? England is magical land of gumdrop trees and coconut milk? To suggest our nursing crisis is the fact that we sent away our nurses and damn them they never came back is a convinent scapegoat for bureacratic mismanagement of our health services and rising cost of living costs.

Again a purile example that cannot be used as proof that we are stuck with a massive polish permenent polish population.

Like what what does that mean. ???? ????

You said there would be problems I asked you to elaborate what these problems you mention would be......

If you want to know I voted no in the Citzenship referendum and have issues surround the National ID card for all non-EU citizens in Ireland. (both are off the topic)
I honestly don't want to defend myself in relation to how anti-racist I am.

"Now not that I'm a racist but...."

I just would be concerned for their childrens level of English

Considering the abuse of grammar in that sentence.

I'll say again these children will be learning english as well as a major part of their studies.

and also of the misconcieved preconceptions that they (their children) will return home. [EDIT] no relavant sorry [/EDIT]

And I hope that explains my position on the matter.

Preconceptions how? More vague claims, and now I'm sorry your explaination leaves us with more questions than answers.

Julep there was a recent, guardian, UK independent or IMC poll re specifically about the desire for Polish and Eastern European workers to return home, and the majority said yes, within five years, it was in the wake of recent statistics re the volume of UK immirgrants, I'll look at digging it up.

However your habit of ignoring abuse flung at myself, while not questioning some of the claims made by those opposed to this school makes me wonder about your bias on this thread.

digitally-yours · 06-09-2006 10:50AM

I would say there is no harm in polish school being opened ! for polish people
But i personally think its better for them to have kids studying in irish schools.

some polish people have very good education and just
dont have any career prospects in ireland
coz of their poor language skills

So they need to look at this that opening polish school
is definately not going to solve the issue.

they should adapt to the envoirnment as the saying goes "Do in rome as romans do ! "

I think its better for them and better for the country as well.

thats my opinion !

Terry · 06-09-2006 10:51AM

Diogenes, i'm trying not to ban anyone this week. if i do ban people it will be you and Elmo, but only if you keep sniping at each other.

eth0_ · 06-09-2006 10:58AM

Diogenes wrote:

I really cannot understand the level of begrudgery about this, they're paying for it themselves, it's not depriving us of our teachers, and it shows a flexbility among their community.

I'm not begrudging them! As long as it doesn't cause the polish community to be seen as a 'ghetto'. They HAVE to integrate with the rest of the community, for their own sakes. One could say any racial abuse they get could be attributed to the fact the majority aren't doing much to integrate with the Irish, or to learn English!

Elmo wrote:

Polish and Irish people are stupid to think that they are only here for a number of years. It is very difficult to up and jump ship back to your own country. How many Irish people did that? How many?

It's been shown that they aren't here long term. Plenty have gone back to Poland/Latvia etc. I mean, would you want to stay here when you can only get a sh*t job, probably paid under the minimum wage?

Diogenes · 06-09-2006 11:15AM

julep wrote:

Diogenes, i'm trying not to ban anyone this week. if i do ban people it will be you and Elmo, but only if you keep sniping at each other.

I'm not sniping at anyone.

Eth0_ wrote:

I'm not begrudging them! As long as it doesn't cause the polish community to be seen as a 'ghetto'. They HAVE to integrate with the rest of the community, for their own sakes. One could say any racial abuse they get could be attributed to the fact the majority aren't doing much to integrate with the Irish, or to learn English!

Eth0_ this them not learning english seems to be a point of fact for you. They will be taught English it will be a serious part of the ciriculum, please let that go.

And this word "intergrate" it keeps getting banded around on this thread, can someone please explain what the Poles have to do to fully intergrate with the Irish. Does Pascal Hodorowicz have to sit in the Parnell Mooney slurp down a harp, reading the Star in his best "hoops" jersey and with a poorly executed tattoo of a Swallow on his wrist, to be fully intergrated? While Sophie Hodorowicz stands outside, dragging on a major, while their kid Jacienta sits in a pram. Will they be fully intergrated then?

Yeah yeah yeah we went abroad, and y'know what we set up Irish social clubs and bars. It seems we want them to just bury any semblance of national and cultural idenity.

Hobbes · 06-09-2006 11:33AM

At the end of the day the school is going to have to follow the rules of the department of Education. They could probably get a break from Teaching Irish but would still have to teach to the same standard as here.

Once the kids get a proper education and that education also helps them in Ireland I don't see an issue with it to be honest. What I mean is to ensure that thier language skills in English at least (Irish bonus) is on par with your average Irish person.

Btw, we had similar schools in England. They were called Private R.C. Schools. I went to one. You didn't learn Irish but pretty much everyone in the school was Irish.

Terry · 06-09-2006 11:35AM

i think what people mean by integrate is that they don't want to see ghettos like in every other country in the world, and i agree with that. there's enough of that crap on the norther part of this island. we really don't need mre of it.

Flukey · 06-09-2006 11:36AM

I said it already, as have others, that having these schools in not a failure of the kids to integrate. They, like any child, will only be in the schools for a limited amount of time each day. For the rest of that time they will be faced with all the normal things that go with daily life in Ireland. They will not be 100% isolated from Irish society, which is they way some of the posts in this thread are implying. They will spend more time outside school, in regular Irish life, than inside it. It may be easier for them to learn to speak English through Polish, if they already are fluent in Polish. If we were abroad, or even if we are here, learning a foreign language, we would have someone speaking our language teaching us. While fluent in the other language, they might still be Irish.

It is only the children that are going to the schools, not the parents. They aren't all living in Polish housing estates, working in Polish companies, shopping in Polish shops etc. They cannot avoid the fact they are here and they will have to deal with their new surroundings, so they will integrate. The only thing that stops integration is putting people into ghettoes or locals not allowing them to integrate. A ghetto isn't always of peoples own making. They often form because no one else wants anything to do with them, not that they don't want anything to do with anyone else. Naturally they will mix with their own nationalties, but if they are not allowed to integrate, then those internal ties become stronger.

Not letting people have some of their own identity, like through a school for their children, is not a good idea either. There has to be a balance. Any Irish person living abroad that has integrated well, will have local friends and be in with local traditions and culture, but will also have Irish friends and maintain strong links with Irish culture. If we got news here, that in some other country Irish people were not allowed to set up schools for their children, or other ways of maintaining Irish culture, there would be uproar. Of course there should be Irish schools, clubs and other such facilities if Irish people want them. Equally, Polish people and any other nationalities should be allowed to have some of their own facilities.

Many of the Polish people here, will stay permanently. Again there seems to be this wide expectation that they will stay a few years and then leave. Some definitely will. Some might. If things get better in Poland, which is going to take a good while given the way things are, some will return, but even many that currently intend returning may never do so. Many Irish people went to other countries, intending to spend only a short time there, and ended up settling there.

Hobbes · 06-09-2006 11:42AM

julep wrote:

i think what people mean by integrate is that they don't want to see ghettos like in every other country in the world

I agree with this. Integration doesn't mean as someone said to start to act like an Irish person. If they are Polish why shouldn't they be allowed to learn Polish history/language? If the Polish government are going to fund them to do it too it doesn't hurt the taxpayer.

Actually trying to think of any contention this might cause I can only think of one.

Currently we are on the brink of a crisis concerning schools. You have to book years in advance to get a place for a kid these days. We have built tons of new houses but no infrastructure to cover them.

It could end up that the Polish School would be in a place where it would have to accept people from the community in order they get an education. To deny Irish children education over Polish is counter-productive and would just increase xenophobia.

Maybe a better solution would be to fund a load of schools that already exist and have say Polish kids going to Polish class instead of Irish class while the Irish kids do the Irish. History can be taught more or less on the same class.

Diogenes · 06-09-2006 12:51PM

julep wrote:

i think what people mean by integrate is that they don't want to see ghettos like in every other country in the world, and i agree with that. there's enough of that crap on the norther part of this island. we really don't need mre of it.

I think the current property market means thats highly unlikely, even if the polish community wanted a getto, theres just no way you could get a getto considering the state of the housing market.

Oh there will be areas small clusters, built around groups of shops etc, but hardly gettos.

Flukey · 06-09-2006 02:11PM

People never want ghettos. They form, for the reasons I outlined in my previous post.

Diogenes · 06-09-2006 02:21PM

Damari Rapid Rehabilitation wrote:

Beg to differ here... It's quite possible, in fact fast becoming a reality in the rental belts in West Dublin.

Specifically where......

theTinker · 06-09-2006 07:41PM

Im ok with the idea of a polish school, No body is forcing them to go to it. So they will only go to it if they are comfortable, People like to be around thier own cultural things so its just gonna make coming to a new country easier i say. Im all for people being completely side by side but i do believe thier cultures should be allow to be kept distinct. Polish schools will have more polish speakers, more polish books, polish beliefs, etc, seems like a great place for a polish person.

Comparing it to a "black" and "White" drinking fountain is completely different as this isnt been forced, its being offer, If there was a "other" and a "just for TheTinker" fountain, i would love it

Ive spent 2 weeks checking every bookshop ive ever seen for a teach yourself polish book, and there is none in any. nothing but dictionaries and ****ty phrase books, So i dont see any support being offered for polish culture there so im glad theres sumthing now being offered.

Anyone know of any teach yourself polish books, like ones u would use in secondary school for french/spanish?

trevorku · 07-09-2006 03:36PM

Personally my experience with polish is a mixed one.. I mean my girlfriend is from Warsaw and her english is perfect and we plan to have a child next year but saying that I find some polish people tend to alienate themselves from the local community, dont you think.

I mean I would have though the point to move to another country was to integrate.Ok I understand the english isnt perfect but come on, how many irish do you see hangin out with polish. Its like they all have their own groups and its starting to become a barried society between irish and polish. Some are extremely nice and helpful of course but some of the others, especially the 20-30 years old who think theyre too good to talk to some irish. And anyone can disagree if they like but thats exactly how I see it.

I've discussed it with my girlfriend and she also notices this 'seperation' so to speak. You see I did some research and went to some polish chatrooms which are based in ireland which shall remain nameless. But anyways they basically told me to get out of the chatroom. Ok yes its a polish chatroom but they spoke english and I just wanted to exchange a few hello's and such. Some people are nice, like the girls but the guys get really offended for some reason. Kind of link a double standard thing. I was on another forum website, and left a message saying I was learning Polish then someone wrote back in Polish, I later got my girlfriend to translate.

Apprently he asked me why I want to learn 'his' language and that 'you irish' are trying to steal our culture. It goes on but basically I thought it was a psycho response... Dont get me wrong, alot of nice Polish but alot need a reality check and an attitude change. Remember they have come to 'our' country and work where 'we' work and live in 'our' accomodation. Yet Irish have accepted them into our community with open arms. Double standards if you ask me,,, just my opinion guys.

nitrogen · 07-09-2006 03:43PM

Wertz wrote:

Most Polish guys I've worked with have said that Ireland is a only a temporary thing for them whilst the going is good, save some good money and then head back...

How many people have thought that living in the US,UK,OZ, Singapore, etc...

It's a step backwards, and a stupid idea on integrating people.

nitrogen · 07-09-2006 03:46PM

trevorku wrote:

saying that I find some polish people tend to alienate themselves from the local community, dont you think

Every culture does this! The Chinese; hence Chinatowns and the Irish are far from setting great examples of mixing away from home, look at the amount of GAA clubs in the US and even in SE Asia. The Polish are by far not the first culture to integrate perfectly, it's part of human nature to want to stick together.

Your examples are harsh and extremely hypocritical since you're Irish.

RedPlanet · 07-09-2006 03:54PM

I don't see any problem with it.
If folks prefer to send their kids to a Polish school fair play.
I guess many posters here feel threatend by it in some way.
If "integration" was such a concern then you could be asking your schools to alter it's curricula to accommodate Polish in some degree.

MrPudding · 07-09-2006 04:12PM

Joey Wrong Backstroke wrote:

I don't really see the problem. There is a 'Lycee Francaise' in London for French kids,

There is two actually, and also one here in Dublin and both my kids go to it. One started when she was three and my son when he was 2 and a half.

Were we staying in Ireland they would stay in that school until after they had completed their leaving ans / or International Bac.

The French school, unlike the Germnan school, teaches the French curriculum (sp?.) The german school changed a number of years ago and teaches the Irish curriculum.

There is a fairly large contingent of Irish only or half Irish families in the French school. In fact I know of at least one Irish boardster that was educated there a few years ago.

When it come to French kids that are here for a short period of time due to parents work commitments having a French school is invaluable. I see no difference with a polish school.

MrP

oranje · 08-09-2006 10:36AM

trevorku wrote:

Apprently he asked me why I want to learn 'his' language and that 'you irish' are trying to steal our culture. It goes on but basically I thought it was a psycho response... Dont get me wrong, alot of nice Polish but alot need a reality check and an attitude change. Remember they have come to 'our' country and work where 'we' work and live in 'our' accomodation. Yet Irish have accepted them into our community with open arms. Double standards if you ask me,,, just my opinion guys.

There are plenty of Irish ex-pats in Warsaw. The last time I was there I met a good few of them and only a minority could speak any Polish. One guy had lived there for six years and had a Polish wife but still couldn't speak a word of Polish.

In my experience Irish people in non-English speaking countries do not generally integrate (this is based on my experiences in Poland, Germany and Holland). The majority spend a lot of time in Irish or English pubs and hang around with English speakers. Their kids go to international schools if they can afford it.

Where I work in Holland there are about 15 Irish people. Two of them can speak normal Dutch. That is pretty indicative of the Irish attitude to integration.

I don't see this as an issue (to each their own and all that) but it is ironic that so many Irish people can now expect other people to integrate fully in Ireland.

upsfan · 08-12-2006 12:24PM

Dagnir Glaurung wrote:

It's only one school. Isn't there an English school in Dublin for those who want to take A-levels?

_Several_ schools offer A-levels. There is also a French school, a German school, and a Muslim school. I would suspect the Polish community here is far larger than any of these, so I really don't see what the problem is.

TwoShedsJackson · 08-12-2006 12:56PM

trevorku wrote:

I mean I would have though the point to move to another country was to integrate.

I think the point for most Poles coming over here at present is to make money. Some of them may integrate, others wont. Very few people are moving with the purpose of integrating.

WallysWorld · 08-12-2006 03:08PM

Ive worked with plenty of Poles amongst other nationalities and most Ive talked to about it say they want to go home eventually, the reality is that a lot of them probably wont for various reasons. Ive worked with Polish guys with amongst other things a degree in European history and another fella with a masters in civil engineering, the reason these people were doin a crappy menial job with me was down to a lack of english. If they want to send there kids to a Polish school then thats fine by me but they better have a very good english program at that school because some of those kids are goin to end up living here (which I have no problem with) and if their english is sub par then they will have problems getting the best jobs in the future.

INMHO, the way to have Polish kids get the best out of the situation their in is to educate them through the Irish system of schools and encourage/fund the Polish community to set up social clubs and sports clubs serving their own community to teach kids about their culture and history like the Irish in America with the GAA.

[Edit] Sigh.... I wish I could spell

RainyDay · 09-12-2006 11:12AM

I assume that all those objecting to a Polish school would also like to see all Gaelscoileanna closed down?

DublinWriter · 09-12-2006 08:19PM

RainyDay wrote:

I assume that all those objecting to a Polish school would also like to see all Gaelscoileanna closed down?

Lame arguement, for the obvious reason.

Hobbes · 09-12-2006 08:37PM

DublinWriter wrote:

Lame arguement, for the obvious reason.

How do you know he was talking about ones that weren't outside Ireland?

DublinWriter · 09-12-2006 10:24PM

Hobbes wrote:

How do you know he was talking about ones that weren't outside Ireland?

Because a) I'm psychic and b) there aren't any.

DonJose · 10-12-2006 03:41PM

From those who I have come across, the eastern Europeans and their children need as much contact with English speaking people as possible. A segregated Polish school will not offer this. I lived in Germany for several years and I worked with Turks who were born in Germany and had to follow in their parents footsteps of low paying jobs due to the language barrier.

Polish School In Dublin

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