Capoeira, yea/nae?

Kernunos · 06-08-2006 07:20PM #1

Hey all, first time post here so stay with me. Was just wondering what the MA forums views would be on Capoeira, the Brazilian dance/gymnastics/martial Art'? I am training in a club here in Limerick and trying to start up another in the University of Limerick come October but have been getting a bit of slack from a few friends of mine who do 'real' martial arts.

I have tried Aikido, Judo and Tai-kwan-do, and i suppose you could call Tai-Chi a martial art-form, over the years but since i was more doing them for enjoyment and fitness and less for the life-saving element i soon got tired of the politics and pretty ignorant attitude towards beginners that were in the clubs i went to. Perhaps i have just been unlucky with the clubs i attended but none have had the more easy-going personal approach the Brazilians had. Dont get me wrong here, i like to train hard but more because i want to rather than because that is what everyone else is doing and i have to keep up.

Anyhow, this was not meant to be a rant about my former clubs but instead just a query on what people thought of Capoeira as a martial art, as it does not not appear to be a recent subject on these forums before.

SorGan · 06-08-2006 07:40PM

Kernunos wrote:

Hey all, first time post here so stay with me. Was just wondering what the MA forums views would be on Capoeira, the Brazilian dance/gymnastics/martial Art'? I am training in a club here in Limerick and trying to start up another in the University of Limerick come October but have been getting a bit of slack from a few friends of mine who do 'real' martial arts.

I have tried Aikido, Judo and Tai-kwan-do, and i suppose you could call Tai-Chi a martial art-form, over the years but since i was more doing them for enjoyment and fitness and less for the life-saving element i soon got tired of the politics and pretty ignorant attitude towards beginners that were in the clubs i went to. Perhaps i have just been unlucky with the clubs i attended but none have had the more easy-going personal approach the Brazilians had. Dont get me wrong here, i like to train hard but more because i want to rather than because that is what everyone else is doing and i have to keep up.

Anyhow, this was not meant to be a rant about my former clubs but instead just a query on what people thought of Capoeira as a martial art, as seemingly, according to the Search box, it has never been a subject on these forums before.

I love it its cool,

Capoeira scholar Ken Dossar writes:
The object of the game is for the capoeiristas to use finesse, guile, and technique to maneuver one another into a defenseless position, rendering them open to a blow, kick or sweep. Only one's hands, head and feet are allowed to touch the floor. Generally there is no contact from strikes. An implied strike is more admired; particularly when the opponent has been clearly manipulated into an indefensible position. All strikes, evasions, and counterstrikes are woven together creatively during the course of a game. The freedom to improvise and create openings keeps capoeira's action fluid and fresh.

But to call it a combat/self defence method then it must be trained as such,and even then it must be trained right in order to be effective.
still check this out for fun...http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8514518157668120764&q=Capoeira
and one for your mateshttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=147708254309962304&q=Capoeira

RealJohn · 07-08-2006 12:03AM

Looks really cool and I imagine your arms get very strong over time but I wouldn't rate it for actually defending yourself.
If I had unlimitted time, I'd almost certainly give it a go but since I don't have time at present for all useful MAs I want to do, capoeira is well down my list of priorities.

(but I have to say again, it can look really cool)

Baggio... · 07-08-2006 12:36AM

Looks really nice...Don't think much of for realistic self-defence though. I know a few guys that do it, and they really enjoy the training. I reckon if you just want fitness and a laugh - it's worth doing. But I would not go near it for anything else.

Mola.mola · 07-08-2006 01:19AM

It comes up on occasion on these forums, great martial art, great buzz about the people that do it, looks like a huge amount of fun. No body mentioned self-defense. It's an art form. It's great. Keep up the good work.

07-08-2006 03:48AM

Capoeira rocks. Healthy. Fun. Beautiful.

Black Jack · 07-08-2006 09:39AM

Capoeira, is pretty spectacular alright, but as for defending yourself, i would seriously think twice about throwing a regular kick (in a street fight) let alone one of the techs u learn form this MA.

Think if your looking for fitness and some good times then this is for you and to be honest the attitiude these guys have is really cool, less formal and more playfull, but always with a serious edge.

If you want to be cool, Capoeira, if you want to be able to smash some guy who trys to harm u on the street then something like Muay Thai much more practical, although have to say this , you get really strong in the upper body i would say from practice in capoeira,

Black Jack · 07-08-2006 09:40AM

just an add on, i really dont know of any clubs in the Louth area for capoeira and have only heard of one in Dublin, i would really like to go and see this being practised, anybody know of any Capoeira clubs in Louth and Dublin??

SorGan · 07-08-2006 11:37AM

Black Jack wrote:

just an add on, i really dont know of any clubs in the Louth area for capoeira and have only heard of one in Dublin, i would really like to go and see this being practised, anybody know of any Capoeira clubs in Louth and Dublin??

there is one in Aungier st. , you will see the lads the odd time on grafton st. doing their tang.
http://www.candeiasdublin.com/.

Mola.mola · 07-08-2006 11:43AM

Where and what do you train Black Jack? I presume Thai boxing in Dundalk?

Kernunos · 07-08-2006 11:49AM

cheers for the replies, glad so many have heard of it, it can sometimes be hard as hell to describe exactly what type of martial art it is. As for clubs i think there are two main organisations in Ireland; Grupo Candeias, which has already been mentioned, and Oficina de Capoeira. I have attended classes with both and enjoyed them all. As far as i know Oficina has a big presence in Dublin and the East coast and Candeis has a lot of classes in Limerick, Galway, Ennis and Cork.

SorGan · 07-08-2006 11:55AM

Kernunos wrote:

Hey all, first time post here so stay with me. Was just wondering what the MA forums views would be on Capoeira, the Brazilian dance/gymnastics/martial Art'? I am training in a club here in Limerick and trying to start up another in the University of Limerick come October but have been getting a bit of slack from a few friends of mine who do 'real' martial arts.

as a matter of interest what do your friends train at?

Black Jack · 07-08-2006 12:59PM

Mola.mola wrote:

Where and what do you train Black Jack? I presume Thai boxing in Dundalk?

Trained a lot of MMA with a friend of mine who was a Ex Army instructor in portugal, not much any more really, have done some Chow Lay Fut and Wing Chun, which never really took off in Dundalk, so the guy soon quit and no more of that, so now mostly just boxing and basic grappling, what i can remember from MMA training, i seriously need an outlet, but just dont have the time,

still pretty handy though but man am i soft now, it sucks!!! Muay Thai is off interest to me, but have never trained it!!

Will · 07-08-2006 11:36PM

I did capoeira for about 2months as part of the Grupo Candeias in Dublin. It was ok, if you get real good it looks amazing. Unfortunately thats about it though, just looks good.
Found it more of a dance class than self defence. Not very practical. I enjoyed it for a while but got bored. Thas my two cents

Good luck with it

ninjawitatitude · 08-08-2006 01:59AM

Hello all,
Just a quickie, as I don't really love you any more, I just want you to pay half the rent.
I am lead to beleive that there will be a moy moy deadly demo at the festival of world cultures in dun laoighre in a few weeks. I can find out the times if you want, but it will take me a few days to catch up with the guy.

Black Jack · 08-08-2006 11:21AM

just as a thought i dont think is really a practical MA, but am sure some guy out there would kick my ass with a few flip kicks or something, but definetly i wouldnt use this MA on the street

If u want to look cool, then ok, maybe stick to your more trad MA's and try some Parkour training, i know i know, but it had taught me wall flips back flips , body spins, spectacular and looks good, but utterly useless in a fight, still though is better training for acrobatics and saves u from wasting your time thinking your learning a practical MA

www.screwgravity.com if you want to learn the spectacular

08-08-2006 11:31AM

Who cares about practicality. Capoeira is capoeira which is pretty damn cool. And it'll get you in better shape than most MAs which to me provides more self defence than the ability to do a three second eye gouge cock smash combo.

Black Jack · 08-08-2006 11:44AM

columok wrote:

Who cares about practicality. Capoeira is capoeira which is pretty damn cool. And it'll get you in better shape than most MAs which to me provides more self defence than the ability to do a three second eye gouge cock smash combo.

think we have diff reasons for training then, i train for practicality, and fitness, after all, its a MA, fighting full stop ! i no train to look cool

in fact i dont know anyone who trains a MA to look cool!!!

08-08-2006 11:50AM

training for image is what you're describing. That's one thing.

training for the joy of movement and the challenge of perfecting one's game is another thing. While Capoeira is showoffy I think most capoeiristas train for a love of movement.

Personally I dont train for practicality. It just so happens that training in MMA-Boxing-Wrestling-BJJ is the most practical training method. Personally I train for fun and to improve my sparring abilities. That's why I've no interest in anything that doesn't do that cause I don't find non-sparring particularily fun.

Black Jack · 08-08-2006 11:59AM

columok wrote:

training for image is what you're describing. That's one thing.

training for the joy of movement and the challenge of perfecting one's game is another thing. While Capoeira is showoffy I think most capoeiristas train for a love of movement.

Personally I dont train for practicality. It just so happens that training in MMA-Boxing-Wrestling-BJJ is the most practical training method. Personally I train for fun and to improve my sparring abilities. That's why I've no interest in anything that doesn't do that cause I don't find non-sparring particularily fun.

i agree having a good spar is fun , but i need to know in my mind that all the fitness , pain and technique is good for something, just in case,

and to be honest i do like to do the spectacular spinning kicks etc, cause i can and know not everyone can, and agree the movement and ability of your body to perform these techs gives u great confidence. Yeah i can see your point, to a certain degree

kodute · 08-08-2006 12:00PM

Kernunos wrote:

Candeis has a lot of classes in Limerick, Galway, Ennis and Cork.

Capoeira in Ennis? Anyone know where abouts? it really looks like fun...:cool:

Kernunos · 08-08-2006 01:58PM

kodute wrote:

Capoeira in Ennis? Anyone know where abouts? it really looks like fun...:cool:

If you check out their website http://www.candeiasireland.com there is some information and pictures. THe Ennis classes are on in the Ennis Gymnastics centre which is in the Gort Road Industrial estate.

My friends are doing Tang-soo-do, Judo and Tai-Kwan-do. I hAve to ask though, a lot of people say that they learn martial arts becauise of the self-defence aspects. Has anyone here actually used their MA in a mugging/jumping scenario? People say that Capoeira is not a very effective MA I cant say for sure because, touch wood, as i have never been mugged or attacked (i guess i just look too intimidating and scary:rolleyes: ) but if you were to get even a single kick to some scum-bags face i think it would give them pause. Also capoeira is not all about cart-wheels and spinning kicks, there are also some fairly vicious head-butts, eye-gouges, mule-kicks and trips. It was a street-brawlers martial art in Brazial for many years after all.

Juntis · 02-09-2006 03:53PM

Bumping the thread, I have a comment or two to make:

The prevailling attitude here seems to be that Capoeira looks cool and is good as a conditioning exercise, but as a practical and effective martial art it's no good. Without wanting to cause offence, this attitude seems to come from people who's only exposure to the martial art is what they've seen from the Lateef Crowder vs. Tony Jaa video, am I wrong?

Here's the deal with that video: It's a choreographed sequence for an action/martial arts film. Anyone who is drawing conclusions from it about real-world fighting potential is being grossly unfair, dismissive, and downright thoughtless. If you want to know how effective Capoeira is, fight a capoeirista. If they have been trained well, you'll probably find yourself getting a serious run for your money.

I'll say this simply so as not to cause confusion: Capoeira contains techniques that are designed to kill. Capoeira teaches its' students to avoid using these techniques unless absolutely necessary. Thus, by definition, it is a martial art. Anyone who jumps around doing handstands in a streetfight deserves to and probably will get their ass handed to them; they don't disgrace the martial art in doing so, they simply demonstrate their lack of common sense and streetsmart.

Can I play devil's advocate here and suggest that the majority of you have simply never seen the sneakier more subtle techniques of Capoeira? The ones they don't display in street demonstrations?

crazy monkey · 02-09-2006 04:32PM

Hello

The thing that strikes me most about your post is that you enjoy capoiera - so then enjoy it and ignore what anyone else thinks.

Some of us here are mma guys -mostly sport orientated

Others are tradtional martional martial arts orientated and see competetion and self defense aspects to their training

Then we have the reality based self defense students who believe in what they do for practical self defense and some fitness I delieve.

Most of the time we all squablle about what we define as "real" or practical or even appropriate....but we all enjoy our chosen training systems regardless of it's definition...so go and do your spinning heel kicks and backflips.

If I had the time I would do capoiera....just for the fun of doing it.

So don't bother with anyone else's judgement be your own guide and enjoy your training.....do a jinga for me

Here endeth the sermont [hopefully]

:cool:

Juntis · 02-09-2006 04:50PM

Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I enjoy playing Capeoira, but my main reason for doing it is for self-defence. It's damn sneaky to say the least.

Really, all I want to add is that you could spend a life time arguing over which style is superior, and everyone who's really thought about it knows that there is no such thing as a superior style - I'm merely repeating a cliché at this stage.

I think the original poster's question was quite significant. He being a beginner and everything, is that right? I definetly think it's important for beginners to experiment and find a style (and club & instructor!) with which they can figure out best how to use their anatomy efficiently, because at the end of the day, that's what you're aiming for: knowing what you can and cannot do so that in any kind of challenge you can move without thinking and not have to second-guess yourself. That's what'll help you succeed your challenges. Not this style or that style.

Besides, as you progress into your training you really should be thinking less about style and more about the fundamental "shtuff." Isn't that where all serious training leads? [/wiseman-spiel]

02-09-2006 04:51PM

Juntis wrote:

Capoeira contains techniques that are designed to kill.

Woah!!! Lethal claims rarely go down well on the boards.

Capoeira teaches its' students to avoid using these techniques unless absolutely necessary.

Yet I would assume that a minority of time is spent training this lethal street stuff.

I really like and admire capoeira from a plethora of angles but in terms of 1 on 1 combat its economy is questionable. In my opinion the least complicated most simple stuff works. Jab cross kick knee elbow shoot sprawl slam sweep choke armbar tap.

Juntis · 02-09-2006 05:01PM

columok wrote:

Woah!!! Lethal claims rarely go down well on the boards.

Yet I would assume that a minority of time is spent training this lethal street stuff.

I really like and admire capoeira from a plethora of angles but in terms of 1 on 1 combat its economy is questionable. In my opinion the least complicated most simple stuff works. Jab cross kick knee elbow shoot sprawl slam sweep choke armbar tap.

*shrugs* Well, I'm not trying to stir up any bad air. Sorry in advance if offence is caused.

The lethal stuff is only taught after graduation. That is, after about six to ten years of training. I'd expect any responsible martial art system to have the same approach - where discipline is instilled in the student before they're given the goods.

Efficiency - that's a good word, I like it. Why jump on your hands and spin six times before kicking someone when you could just jump in as they expect you to jump back, parry a punch, elbow their throat then headbutt them out of your way? Capeoiristas are very good at headbutting.

Pro. F · 04-09-2006 04:26PM

I've trained a very few classes of capeoira. It was great fun. I wasn't looking for an effective martial art and I certainly wasn't shown one. I just wanted a dance class and that's what I got. There were some good strikes in there. One kick was almost the exact same as the Muay Thai technique Crocodile Whips its Tail but I wasn't shown any decent way to work it into a fight. That wasn't a problem for me, as I say, I was just there for the dancing.

Juntis, you say that capeoira is an effective martial art.

Juntis wrote:

Why jump on your hands and spin six times before kicking someone when you could just jump in as they expect you to jump back, parry a punch, elbow their throat then headbutt them out of your way? Capeoiristas are very good at headbutting.

That sounds like a good strong attack if it's pulled off. But, with all respect, I've never heard of Capeoiristas training strikes effectively. I'm well aware that I could be completely wrong so that is why I'm asking. Do Capeoiristas train strikes against thai pads, focus mits, kick shields or punch bags? or anything like that? do they ever spar with full contact? if so, how often?
Thanks in advance for any info you can give.

Juntis · 05-09-2006 11:12AM

Pro. F wrote:

Juntis, you say that capeoira is an effective martial art.

That sounds like a good strong attack if it's pulled off. But, with all respect, I've never heard of Capeoiristas training strikes effectively. I'm well aware that I could be completely wrong so that is why I'm asking. Do Capeoiristas train strikes against thai pads, focus mits, kick shields or punch bags? or anything like that? do they ever spar with full contact? if so, how often?
Thanks in advance for any info you can give.

No, I've never seen pads being used in training. I can't say they're not used, I've just never seen it. And sparring is not done in Capoeira. There's no such thing. That is not to say, however, that a capoeirista could not spar.

glucosamine · 05-09-2006 01:17PM

That's not to say a rugby player can't spar either. But one could say couldn't spar as effectively as a guy trained equally in Muay Thai.

I'll slightly familar with all the dirty tricks within the Capeoria game and this is actually one of the things I don't like about it. I think you can get very fit, conditioned and strong practicing capeoria on a daily basis but other than the increase in fighting ability due to improved fitness, strength and flexibility I don't think it offers much from a combat point of few.

I don't think Capeoira would be a good way of training for self-defense compared to full contact karate, boxing, thai boxing, BJJ and judo. I think TKD would also be a better game to play than Capeoria if your goals are self-defense.

Mhmm...weetabix · 05-09-2006 01:50PM

glucosamine wrote:

I don't think Capeoira would be a good way of training for self-defense compared to full contact karate, boxing, thai boxing, BJJ and judo.

Not singling you out or disagreeing glucosamine, just using this as an example as it seems to be the general concensus (and the nearest one on the screen) in this thread about capoiera. The (few) capoiera classes I've attended over in the UK would contradict this as the instructor was teaching people how to dodge attacks (best form of self defence imho) and would show the hidden strikes in the move to accompany, although it was thought first and foremost as a recreational/dancy type class. I attended the classes as alot of my Bjj class mates including my instructor recommended Capoeira to compliment Bjj especially in guard passing as these moves are often unpredictable and hard to defend against,also for the agility and speed component its 2nd to none training wise, unfortunately these classes have being kinda wasted on me as I broke my ankle and never really got to practice the movements in the past 8 months. I suppose though this again is class orientated and as a self defence system on the street it wouldnt be ideal but to dismiss it completely (not saying anyone and everyone has) is fool hardy and quite ignorant imo as like any martial art it has plus aswell as minus points.

Capoeira, yea/nae?

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