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Capoeira, yea/nae?
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06-08-2006 6:20pm#1
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I love it its cool,Kernunos wrote:Hey all, first time post here so stay with me. Was just wondering what the MA forums views would be on Capoeira, the Brazilian dance/gymnastics/martial Art'? I am training in a club here in Limerick and trying to start up another in the University of Limerick come October but have been getting a bit of slack from a few friends of mine who do 'real' martial arts.
I have tried Aikido, Judo and Tai-kwan-do, and i suppose you could call Tai-Chi a martial art-form, over the years but since i was more doing them for enjoyment and fitness and less for the life-saving element i soon got tired of the politics and pretty ignorant attitude towards beginners that were in the clubs i went to. Perhaps i have just been unlucky with the clubs i attended but none have had the more easy-going personal approach the Brazilians had. Dont get me wrong here, i like to train hard but more because i want to rather than because that is what everyone else is doing and i have to keep up.
Anyhow, this was not meant to be a rant about my former clubs but instead just a query on what people thought of Capoeira as a martial art, as seemingly, according to the Search box, it has never been a subject on these forums before.
But to call it a combat/self defence method then it must be trained as such,and even then it must be trained right in order to be effective.Capoeira scholar Ken Dossar writes:
The object of the game is for the capoeiristas to use finesse, guile, and technique to maneuver one another into a defenseless position, rendering them open to a blow, kick or sweep. Only one's hands, head and feet are allowed to touch the floor. Generally there is no contact from strikes. An implied strike is more admired; particularly when the opponent has been clearly manipulated into an indefensible position. All strikes, evasions, and counterstrikes are woven together creatively during the course of a game. The freedom to improvise and create openings keeps capoeira's action fluid and fresh.
still check this out for fun...http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8514518157668120764&q=Capoeira
and one for your mateshttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=147708254309962304&q=Capoeira
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I did capoeira for about 2months as part of the Grupo Candeias in Dublin. It was ok, if you get real good it looks amazing. Unfortunately thats about it though, just looks good.
Found it more of a dance class than self defence. Not very practical. I enjoyed it for a while but got bored. Thas my two cents
Good luck with it0 -
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Hello
The thing that strikes me most about your post is that you enjoy capoiera - so then enjoy it and ignore what anyone else thinks.
Some of us here are mma guys -mostly sport orientated
Others are tradtional martional martial arts orientated and see competetion and self defense aspects to their training
Then we have the reality based self defense students who believe in what they do for practical self defense and some fitness I delieve.
Most of the time we all squablle about what we define as "real" or practical or even appropriate....but we all enjoy our chosen training systems regardless of it's definition...so go and do your spinning heel kicks and backflips.
If I had the time I would do capoiera....just for the fun of doing it.
So don't bother with anyone else's judgement be your own guide and enjoy your training.....do a jinga for me
Here endeth the sermont [hopefully]
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columok wrote:Woah!!! Lethal claims rarely go down well on the boards.
Yet I would assume that a minority of time is spent training this lethal street stuff.
I really like and admire capoeira from a plethora of angles but in terms of 1 on 1 combat its economy is questionable. In my opinion the least complicated most simple stuff works. Jab cross kick knee elbow shoot sprawl slam sweep choke armbar tap.
*shrugs* Well, I'm not trying to stir up any bad air. Sorry in advance if offence is caused.
The lethal stuff is only taught after graduation. That is, after about six to ten years of training. I'd expect any responsible martial art system to have the same approach - where discipline is instilled in the student before they're given the goods.
Efficiency - that's a good word, I like it. Why jump on your hands and spin six times before kicking someone when you could just jump in as they expect you to jump back, parry a punch, elbow their throat then headbutt them out of your way? Capeoiristas are very good at headbutting. 0 -
I've trained a very few classes of capeoira. It was great fun. I wasn't looking for an effective martial art and I certainly wasn't shown one. I just wanted a dance class and that's what I got. There were some good strikes in there. One kick was almost the exact same as the Muay Thai technique Crocodile Whips its Tail but I wasn't shown any decent way to work it into a fight. That wasn't a problem for me, as I say, I was just there for the dancing.
Juntis, you say that capeoira is an effective martial art.
That sounds like a good strong attack if it's pulled off. But, with all respect, I've never heard of Capeoiristas training strikes effectively. I'm well aware that I could be completely wrong so that is why I'm asking. Do Capeoiristas train strikes against thai pads, focus mits, kick shields or punch bags? or anything like that? do they ever spar with full contact? if so, how often?Juntis wrote:Why jump on your hands and spin six times before kicking someone when you could just jump in as they expect you to jump back, parry a punch, elbow their throat then headbutt them out of your way? Capeoiristas are very good at headbutting.
Thanks in advance for any info you can give.0 -
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To answer your questions Pro. F, here are some of my opinions and a few facts that I feel will help you understand my stance :Pro. F wrote:OK so you, as a practitioner of Capoeira, have not seen boxing pads used to practice striking. You sound like an experienced capoeirista and yet you haven't seen effective training for strikes in your art. That makes me think that it's not common to train strikes effectively in Capoeira. And so, then I'm led to believe that the majority of capoeiristas can't strike effectively.
Your logic is sound, provided that pad-striking is a worthwhile technique. I spent four years doing it in TaeKwonDo and came to the personal conclusion that it wasn't of any use. I can't explain, I just don't see the point. I don't need conditioned knuckles to use them effectivley. And I don't need a muscle-memory that will tell me that dynamic contact with human skin and bone will always be the same as static contact with a leather pad. It simply doesn't make sense to me.As glucosamine says that's not to say that anybody couldn't spar. The question is can they do it well? Training doing something makes you more effective at doing that thing. Who is going to be more able to hold their own in a spar - somebody who spars at least once a week, like a Thai boxer, or somebody who never spars, like a capoeirista? And continuous sparring with contact is a very important part of training for fighting.
As far as sparring goes, the guy who practices every week will win, no doubt. Like above, my experience with sparring has taught me this, and it's also taught me that being a good sparrer is not the same as being a good fighter. Before I go on, I want to clarify both your definition of sparring and mine, because if we're not on the same page here we're missing the point altogether. This is what I think, what about you?:
I regard sparring as a safe exercise, based on controlled contact and what are assumed to be minimally invasive background rules. I tend to see sparring as an unofficial competition thing, where a fighter has to wear pads and mits, and wins fights based on points. This type of sparring is something that I consider a complete waste of time, and if anything, damaging to students. I have my reasons, and I'll explain them somewhere else some other time so as not to go off topic here, is that okay?
Now if you're simply talking about the act of two people testing each other's reflexes and stamina with what is basically a fight, (only with a "safety word,") then I agree; that kind of sparring is probably a worthwhile exercise, and if Capoeira lacks it, then it is a weak point of Capoeira. No argument there. But I'll add a comment in my conclusion for you to consider.
In capoeira people get hit. When they get hit, they're usually down for five with a bag of ice on their lip. It's rare, because otherwise no one would be able to keep playing, but it does happen. Now as far as I'm concerned a couple of hard smacks every now and again in your training are far more beneficial than weekly pattings with safe-padding. This, again, is my own opinion based on my personal experience. I'm not saying it's gospel.Can I ask how the instructor was teaching people to dodge attacks? As far as I'm aware when practicing capoiera people take care to not actually make contact with their strikes. If this is the case when can you practice dodging real strikes which are intended to hit?
Also, I think it's highly unlikely that anyone could win a fight with just dodging attacks. The fight has to end with someone being hurt. IMO it's far better to take the initiative. IMO dodging should be a means to an end, not an end in itself.
Two things to say here, firstly regarding your comment that people in capoeira take care to not hit their opponents, I think you're slightly ill-informed. Don't get me wrong, I think this is one of the most common misconceptions that people have so I'll clarify this really briefly:
An experienced player will pull his punches with inexperienced students if s/he sees that the opponent is not going to be able to avoid them. It's supposed to be, after all, a spirited exchange, not a slug-fest. This is probably what you're referring to when you say that capoeiristas don't make contact.
However, with two proficient players, they are expected to be able to dodge the techniques. The kicks are real. If your head hasn't ducked by the time the Half-Moon-Crescent kick has unfolded, your head is going to get an almighty wallop. It's as simple as that. This is why in any game all students have to pay attention to the Instructor playing the Berimbau. It's his responsibility to ensure that no two mis-matched students are allowed to play against each other, and players will be turned away by him at the gateway to the ring if he doesn't feel they can handle themselves in quick-paced game.
Mestre Bimba explained the philosophy quite ellegantly: "If you get hit, it's your fault, and if you hit someone else, it's also your fault." In all my time of training I've yet to hear a fairer rule.
Secondly I'd like to say that I feel dodging is a far superior exercise to blocking. And the very nature of a well-performed Ginga (the basic stance,) is that you simply can't land a blow on the capoeirista.So, the instructor showed the hidden strikes in the moves. Did you ever train, or see anyone training, the strikes effectively? I think it's important to differentiate between seeing a technique and being able to do that technique. Being able to do something requires practice. Being able to use a fighting technique effectively requires effective fight training.
I think you'd be surprised by the amount of simple drills we're made to do. It's not flimsy fairy stuff. We have long sessions of simple three-part parry, elbow, side-kick combo's that bore the life out of us. But what can I say? They work. And yes, hidden strikes galore. It's not that you're told to execute X where Y becomes Z, you're simply told, "Meh... at this point you could do a ... elbow, flat-palm face-smash, claw his cheeks open... whatever, just hurt him." (Knee-butts are great too, boy do they have smacking power! )
You could be shown a flowery-looking manouvre and then be told how to use it as a parry-punch combo if necessary. When the student stops and thinks about it, he sees immediatly how it works both ways. The two-sided dance/fight nature is very intricate.
The last thing I want to say at this point (I said I'd make a comment at the end,) is that Capoeira simply cannot be fully described in the context of a traditional eastern martial art. The approach toward developing someone as a fighter (and more,) are unique. It works for me, that's all. I feel like I've made more progress as a fighter with Capoeira than I have with any other style.
*shrugs*0 -
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Not trying to take anything away from Capoeira here. I have immense respect for what it is (in my eyes) a beautiful cultural pursuit and fantastic martial art.
Now a functional training method it is not. #1 reason is... it isn't efficient. Most capoeira training methods revolve around teaching capoeira and not teaching full contact striking.
Juntis,
With all due respect you don't seem to have any understanding of efficient training and fast skill development in terms of standup striking. Whether they be eastern or western martial arts or sports there is a standard progressive training method that seeks to develop the skills needed to fight a resisting opponent. These training methods are present in boxing, muay thai, full-contact kickboxing, kyukushinkai karate, savate and I'm sure many others. All come from different cultures but the goal is the same - to develop the most efficient training methods to be excellent standup fighters. The fundamentals of these training methods include
1) Pad work
2) Safe regular resistance drills
3) Safe regular sparring
4) Safe competition
I don't see how this training method can really be faulted whether the goal is to train headbutts or left hands. Either you put the time in sparring to develop the timing needed to deliver punches against an opponent or you don't develop the skills. Rugby players play training matches to prepare them for live resistance in a big match. Football players play matches to prepare them for big matches. The intensity is lower. The injury risk is lessened. The skills develop nonetheless.
Now referencing pad-striking in TKD is a little different as most TKD clubs train for semi contact competition. Full contact is a whole new world. Full contact strikers hit to hurt not to get a point.
Then my man your views are diametrically opposed to the vast majority of the greatest fighters the world has ever seen. Samurai sparred. Romans sparred. Greeks sparred. Filipinos sparred. Boxers spar. Wrestlers spar. Proper karateka spar. They spar at a lower intensity so that they're not injured for the battle/fight. Seems logical to me.Juntis wrote:Now as far as I'm concerned a couple of hard smacks every now and again in your training are far more beneficial than weekly pattings with safe-padding.
Yeah but you never train them against a resisting attacking opponent therefore never develop the skill needed to deliver these techniques."Meh... at this point you could do a ... elbow, flat-palm face-smash, claw his cheeks open... whatever, just hurt him."
You should have a look at muay thai.(Knee-butts are great too, boy do they have smacking power! )
All the best,
Colum0 -
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