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Capoeira, yea/nae?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,219 ✭✭✭✭Pro. F


    Juntis wrote:
    No, I've never seen pads being used in training. I can't say they're not used, I've just never seen it.
    OK so you, as a practitioner of Capoeira, have not seen boxing pads used to practice striking. You sound like an experienced capoeirista and yet you haven't seen effective training for strikes in your art. That makes me think that it's not common to train strikes effectively in Capoeira. And so, then I'm led to believe that the majority of capoeiristas can't strike effectively.
    Juntis wrote:
    And sparring is not done in Capoeira. There's no such thing. That is not to say, however, that a capoeirista could not spar.
    As glucosamine says that's not to say that anybody couldn't spar. The question is can they do it well? Training doing something makes you more effective at doing that thing. Who is going to be more able to hold their own in a spar - somebody who spars at least once a week, like a Thai boxer, or somebody who never spars, like a capoeirista? And continuous sparring with contact is a very important part of training for fighting.
    The (few) capoiera classes I've attended over in the UK would contradict this as the instructor was teaching people how to dodge attacks (best form of self defence imho)
    Can I ask how the instructor was teaching people to dodge attacks? As far as I'm aware when practicing capoiera people take care to not actually make contact with their strikes. If this is the case when can you practice dodging real strikes which are intended to hit?
    Also, I think it's highly unlikely that anyone could win a fight with just dodging attacks. The fight has to end with someone being hurt. IMO it's far better to take the initiative. IMO dodging should be a means to an end, not an end in itself.
    and would show the hidden strikes in the move to accompany,
    So, the instructor showed the hidden strikes in the moves. Did you ever train, or see anyone training, the strikes effectively? I think it's important to differentiate between seeing a technique and being able to do that technique. Being able to do something requires practice. Being able to use a fighting technique effectively requires effective fight training.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6 Juntis


    To answer your questions Pro. F, here are some of my opinions and a few facts that I feel will help you understand my stance :
    Pro. F wrote:
    OK so you, as a practitioner of Capoeira, have not seen boxing pads used to practice striking. You sound like an experienced capoeirista and yet you haven't seen effective training for strikes in your art. That makes me think that it's not common to train strikes effectively in Capoeira. And so, then I'm led to believe that the majority of capoeiristas can't strike effectively.

    Your logic is sound, provided that pad-striking is a worthwhile technique. I spent four years doing it in TaeKwonDo and came to the personal conclusion that it wasn't of any use. I can't explain, I just don't see the point. I don't need conditioned knuckles to use them effectivley. And I don't need a muscle-memory that will tell me that dynamic contact with human skin and bone will always be the same as static contact with a leather pad. It simply doesn't make sense to me.
    As glucosamine says that's not to say that anybody couldn't spar. The question is can they do it well? Training doing something makes you more effective at doing that thing. Who is going to be more able to hold their own in a spar - somebody who spars at least once a week, like a Thai boxer, or somebody who never spars, like a capoeirista? And continuous sparring with contact is a very important part of training for fighting.

    As far as sparring goes, the guy who practices every week will win, no doubt. Like above, my experience with sparring has taught me this, and it's also taught me that being a good sparrer is not the same as being a good fighter. Before I go on, I want to clarify both your definition of sparring and mine, because if we're not on the same page here we're missing the point altogether. This is what I think, what about you?:

    I regard sparring as a safe exercise, based on controlled contact and what are assumed to be minimally invasive background rules. I tend to see sparring as an unofficial competition thing, where a fighter has to wear pads and mits, and wins fights based on points. This type of sparring is something that I consider a complete waste of time, and if anything, damaging to students. I have my reasons, and I'll explain them somewhere else some other time so as not to go off topic here, is that okay?

    Now if you're simply talking about the act of two people testing each other's reflexes and stamina with what is basically a fight, (only with a "safety word,") then I agree; that kind of sparring is probably a worthwhile exercise, and if Capoeira lacks it, then it is a weak point of Capoeira. No argument there. But I'll add a comment in my conclusion for you to consider.

    In capoeira people get hit. When they get hit, they're usually down for five with a bag of ice on their lip. It's rare, because otherwise no one would be able to keep playing, but it does happen. Now as far as I'm concerned a couple of hard smacks every now and again in your training are far more beneficial than weekly pattings with safe-padding. This, again, is my own opinion based on my personal experience. I'm not saying it's gospel.
    Can I ask how the instructor was teaching people to dodge attacks? As far as I'm aware when practicing capoiera people take care to not actually make contact with their strikes. If this is the case when can you practice dodging real strikes which are intended to hit?
    Also, I think it's highly unlikely that anyone could win a fight with just dodging attacks. The fight has to end with someone being hurt. IMO it's far better to take the initiative. IMO dodging should be a means to an end, not an end in itself.

    Two things to say here, firstly regarding your comment that people in capoeira take care to not hit their opponents, I think you're slightly ill-informed. Don't get me wrong, I think this is one of the most common misconceptions that people have so I'll clarify this really briefly:

    An experienced player will pull his punches with inexperienced students if s/he sees that the opponent is not going to be able to avoid them. It's supposed to be, after all, a spirited exchange, not a slug-fest. This is probably what you're referring to when you say that capoeiristas don't make contact.

    However, with two proficient players, they are expected to be able to dodge the techniques. The kicks are real. If your head hasn't ducked by the time the Half-Moon-Crescent kick has unfolded, your head is going to get an almighty wallop. It's as simple as that. This is why in any game all students have to pay attention to the Instructor playing the Berimbau. It's his responsibility to ensure that no two mis-matched students are allowed to play against each other, and players will be turned away by him at the gateway to the ring if he doesn't feel they can handle themselves in quick-paced game.

    Mestre Bimba explained the philosophy quite ellegantly: "If you get hit, it's your fault, and if you hit someone else, it's also your fault." In all my time of training I've yet to hear a fairer rule.

    Secondly I'd like to say that I feel dodging is a far superior exercise to blocking. And the very nature of a well-performed Ginga (the basic stance,) is that you simply can't land a blow on the capoeirista.
    So, the instructor showed the hidden strikes in the moves. Did you ever train, or see anyone training, the strikes effectively? I think it's important to differentiate between seeing a technique and being able to do that technique. Being able to do something requires practice. Being able to use a fighting technique effectively requires effective fight training.

    I think you'd be surprised by the amount of simple drills we're made to do. It's not flimsy fairy stuff. We have long sessions of simple three-part parry, elbow, side-kick combo's that bore the life out of us. But what can I say? They work. And yes, hidden strikes galore. It's not that you're told to execute X where Y becomes Z, you're simply told, "Meh... at this point you could do a ... elbow, flat-palm face-smash, claw his cheeks open... whatever, just hurt him." (Knee-butts are great too, boy do they have smacking power! :D )

    You could be shown a flowery-looking manouvre and then be told how to use it as a parry-punch combo if necessary. When the student stops and thinks about it, he sees immediatly how it works both ways. The two-sided dance/fight nature is very intricate.

    The last thing I want to say at this point (I said I'd make a comment at the end,) is that Capoeira simply cannot be fully described in the context of a traditional eastern martial art. The approach toward developing someone as a fighter (and more,) are unique. It works for me, that's all. I feel like I've made more progress as a fighter with Capoeira than I have with any other style.

    *shrugs*


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 732 ✭✭✭SorGan


    Juntis wrote:
    Your logic is sound, provided that pad-striking is a worthwhile technique. I spent four years doing it in TaeKwonDo and came to the personal conclusion that it wasn't of any use. I can't explain, I just don't see the point. I don't need conditioned knuckles to use them effectivley. And I don't need a muscle-memory that will tell me that dynamic contact with human skin and bone will always be the same as static contact with a leather pad. It simply doesn't make sense to me.
    pad work is not for hand condidioning mate, it develops punching, kicking ability
    i think your getting it mixed up,

    Now as far as I'm concerned a couple of hard smacks every now and again in your training are far more beneficial than weekly pattings with safe-padding.

    how do you feel accidental contact helps?
    is that you simply can't land a blow on the capoeirista.

    how do you know, if you dont even light spar let alone do some full on boxing?
    in order to fight you have to engage.an average boxer will nail you..


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,769 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Brasilian Capoeira is cool. Don't let anyone discourage you.


  • Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Not trying to take anything away from Capoeira here. I have immense respect for what it is (in my eyes) a beautiful cultural pursuit and fantastic martial art.

    Now a functional training method it is not. #1 reason is... it isn't efficient. Most capoeira training methods revolve around teaching capoeira and not teaching full contact striking.

    Juntis,
    With all due respect you don't seem to have any understanding of efficient training and fast skill development in terms of standup striking. Whether they be eastern or western martial arts or sports there is a standard progressive training method that seeks to develop the skills needed to fight a resisting opponent. These training methods are present in boxing, muay thai, full-contact kickboxing, kyukushinkai karate, savate and I'm sure many others. All come from different cultures but the goal is the same - to develop the most efficient training methods to be excellent standup fighters. The fundamentals of these training methods include

    1) Pad work
    2) Safe regular resistance drills
    3) Safe regular sparring
    4) Safe competition

    I don't see how this training method can really be faulted whether the goal is to train headbutts or left hands. Either you put the time in sparring to develop the timing needed to deliver punches against an opponent or you don't develop the skills. Rugby players play training matches to prepare them for live resistance in a big match. Football players play matches to prepare them for big matches. The intensity is lower. The injury risk is lessened. The skills develop nonetheless.

    Now referencing pad-striking in TKD is a little different as most TKD clubs train for semi contact competition. Full contact is a whole new world. Full contact strikers hit to hurt not to get a point.
    Juntis wrote:
    Now as far as I'm concerned a couple of hard smacks every now and again in your training are far more beneficial than weekly pattings with safe-padding.
    Then my man your views are diametrically opposed to the vast majority of the greatest fighters the world has ever seen. Samurai sparred. Romans sparred. Greeks sparred. Filipinos sparred. Boxers spar. Wrestlers spar. Proper karateka spar. They spar at a lower intensity so that they're not injured for the battle/fight. Seems logical to me.
    "Meh... at this point you could do a ... elbow, flat-palm face-smash, claw his cheeks open... whatever, just hurt him."
    Yeah but you never train them against a resisting attacking opponent therefore never develop the skill needed to deliver these techniques.
    (Knee-butts are great too, boy do they have smacking power! )
    You should have a look at muay thai. :D

    All the best,

    Colum


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    I used Capoeira to pass guard in ROT2, so yes, it does work! :) :cool:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 42 glucosamine


    Yes and your armbar was obviously an example of you using your judo.

    Capoeira, at the end of the day, in my humble and honest opinion is great for your body but not great for preparing for a "real fight".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    Yes and your armbar was obviously an example of you using your judo
    Don’t be ridiculous.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 42 glucosamine


    Good to see you accept my point.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6 Juntis


    Colum, thanks for the feedback. This is a little frustrating, I honestly don't know what to say here!:o I have answered queries about the elements of training in defence of the claim that Capoeira is innefficient as a "legitimate" martial art. I feel I've been honest, and I've made it clear that I am not the definitive authority on this subject, so if whoever's reading this thread comes away still unconvinced, I apologise... because despite all the counter-points made toward my comments, (which I can't really disagree with,) I still feel that you'd be passing off a seriously effective form of training.

    I've read your points, I've considered them. I've re-read mine, I've re-considered them. I still stand by what I've said - Capoeira is efficient. I stated earlier in this thread that there are probably parts in the training that are weaker than in other martial arts. Is this not natural? Personally, I don't aim to remain in this style for the rest of my life, I will branch out, as I've done before but this, for me, will always be my primary style. So, if I discover someday that I can perform beautiful kicks but they can't actually be used, then I will gladly begin a more traditional program of resistance training. As yet however, I remain convinced that either:

    a) It's not entirely necessary *GASP!*, or
    b) It's probably already in my style, in some subtle way that can't be directly labelled "Resistance Training", because:

    I have been kicked around the Roda many many times, by Capoeiristas who, somehow, know how to use those kicks properly. Do you understand my point there? I'll re-clarify it if I'm not being clear, just ask. Because this is where we're probably getting bogged down in semantics.

    At this stage, all I can ask of you guys is to be open-minded toward a training-approach that is obviously unorthodox. Please don't make decisions about the art based on a few classes that you may have participated in, everyone here knows that training takes time. I wouldn't go to ten Thai-Boxing classes (for example,) and act like all has been revealed to me. Nor would I go to a Thai-Boxing class expecting a perfect gapless training structure.

    I sincerely welcome any of you to participate in some classes on the condition that you stick with it for a while. There's loads of clubs in around the country now - it's not like what it was five years ago. If, at the end of the day we still disagree, or if I'm wrong, then... shucks.

    Um, yeah that's basically it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 42 glucosamine


    go to 10 thai boxing glasses and come back to us with gaps in their methods. you could alternatively read michael o learys reports on them


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 49 GalwayorBust


    A few things I noticed about Capoeira training in Galway when I was living there. #1 They had women every week, lots of them and some very cute. #2 Live Music with a great beat #3 They seemed to be having a great time #4 Cool moves and uniforms the belts rule. #5 Did I mention cute women?:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    A few things I noticed about Capoeira training in Galway when I was living there. #1 They had women every week, lots of them and some very cute. #2 Live Music with a great beat #3 They seemed to be having a great time #4 Cool moves and uniforms the belts rule. #5 Did I mention cute women?:D
    Are there any other reasons for training?:D

    What about the ladies though? Where do they go when they want to look at the men??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭Jimmy Trigger


    Hi, does anyone know capoeira training anywhere is the south east???
    Kilkenny, waterford, carlow area???


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Big interest in capoeira over the past few days....

    Here's a couple of links mentioned in other posts recently:

    http://www.candeiasireland.com/wp/

    http://www.capoeiraireland.com/dublin/classes.html

    I haven't heard of any clubs in the south east but it might be worth emailing a contact from one of those sites to see if they can put you in touch with someone. Hope you find somewhere, capoeira is the business.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,477 ✭✭✭✭Raze_them_all


    as far as i know there is none in the south east, there was something in thomastown before but i think that was a one day workshop


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭Jimmy Trigger


    Sweet, thanks guys.

    Thomastown? of all places.

    Thanks


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,477 ✭✭✭✭Raze_them_all


    yeah but i think it was only a one day thing, I'll have a look around and see what i can dig up, if i get anything i'll drop into zee music shop and let ya know


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭Jimmy Trigger


    oh ok, do i know you?

    Sweet thanks.

    I just wanna dance and kick ass at the same time,ha.


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