Prostitution

Seraphina wrote:

erm, thats exactly the point. the value is on the service. the person becomes u****ortant and in a way 'not real'. even the way people speak about it makes it disrespectful - 'using' a prostitute. she becomes nothing more than some orifices for the mans pleasure. she's not a person to him.

I think you're making a huge leap here tbh. When I call a plumber, I hire him/her to fix the leaky pipe in my bathroom, not to have a chat with them. Their service is more important to me than the type of person they are. That's not to say they're not a person to me and tbh I don't see how you can say otherwise about a prostitute who's willingly providing her form of service.

oral or any other kind of sex is slightly more invasive :rolleyes: this makes a HUUUGE difference if there is force involved with the situation.

True, it's more invasive of one's personal space but it's also a lot better paid. If there's force involved, it's a horrible, horrible crime. Tonights Primetime report on trafficking made my blood boil. However, if you watched it, all those involved pointed to the cause of this crime: poverty in the countries these poor girls are being trafficked from. I and others have also pointed out that a legalised, controlled sex industry would make this trade in human life financially unviable for the traffickers, at least in this country.

my point is that prostitution is often a case of previous psychological damage being reinforced, as in, rape, or any kind of abuse prior to engagement in the profession. something like prostitution is a black hole for mentally unstable women, creating a viscious cycle of self esteem and self worth issues.

And you feel that legalising and controlling the industry wouldn't help these women?

either combined with this or as a single issue should neither of the above situations apply (i.e. the women is choosing to do this as a high class escort whatever because she makes good money and enjoys sex) is the impact this kind of situation has on the guy. to some it'll make no difference, some might not even enjoy it.
some love the power, and see it as an opportunity to objectify and order women around. it simply intensifies their misogyny. women become all the same for them, something to be used for sex and then discarded. in this case the impact is more on the guy than on the woman, but the psychological impact will spread further in this situation, to every woman the man meets.

You seem to have a very negative opinion of men if you think this is in any means true for the majority of us. Would you also apply the same thinking to men who use rent boys?

Also, would the legalisation of the trade not empower those women in the industry as the only power the client has over a prostitute in our current situation is the witholding of his business or exposing her. Legalisation would allow her to at least disregard the second of these threats.

tbh, i think DOLEMAN's friends are more likely the exception than the rule. yeah sure, there are plenty of women who are fine with what they do. for most of them however, i suspect its far from enjoyable .

also, as i said above, the women isn't the only one who's psyche we should worry about in these situations.

For most people in general, their work is far from enjoyable. It's why our employers have to pay us to do that work. At the risk of sounding like a broken record here, wouldn't legalising and controling the industry not help ensure that it was only the women who were fine with working in the industry who were actually working in it?

i think all the guys here just like to sugar coat the reality and say the stats on trafficking are negligible and that the women are all getting paid loads and they love it and sure aren't they exploiting us, so none of you have to feel guilty when you make your trips to amsterdam.

Dear jebus, you really have a negative opinion of men. For the record, I've never been to amsterdam and if I were to go it would be other leisure activities that aren't legal here that I'd be going for

I don't doubt that there are women working in prostitution here in Ireland who are being coerced into it. I don't doubt that there are junkies selling sex in order to get their next fix (better that than them robbing car stereos / old ladies handbags though imho but that's another thread). I don't doubt that outlawing the industry makes problems more widespread. I don't doubt that the issue of trafficking is better tackled by reducing barriers to trade and freedom of movement than by making the industry a large number of it's victims are forced into illegal. I don't doubt that legalising and controlling prostitution would make it harder for the scum that operate sex slavery to continue carrying out their evil trade and I don't doubt that as a country we're too bloody ignorant to do anything about it.

The only point in that entire post you can argue against is my choice of analogy? :rolleyes:

Let me try another one for you: If I hurt my back, I pay a physiotherapist to massage it and pop it back into place. I pay them to fix my back, not to chat to me.

Prostitution is a service, same as any other, except it's probably been around a lot longer than most.

simu wrote:

It's not that well paid and tbh, it's far far more invasive than any other job. I mean it severly limits your possibility of having a normal sex life of any sort - how many men would be happy to go out with a prostitute? You're putting your health at risk no matter how careful you are about STDs.

I would contend that how invasive it is depends on the person you're talking to. I won't provide a link but google 'Irish Independent Escorts' and you'll see the kind of money that prostitutes can make in this country, it's incredibly well paid. Now, I'm sure some of the girls are paying a share of their earnings to pimps but surely legalisation would improve that situation.

I can think of many other jobs that limit one's potential to have a normal sex/love life of any sort - how many people are happy to go out with a soldier who may be away from home for months/years at a time? The same could be said of sailors, businesspeople who spend a lot of time travelling, etc. How many people would be happy to date someone who works nights where they'll rarely get to see each other? How many people are prepared to date someone who works for Fianna Fail?

I remember reading in the Sunday Times magasine that STI rates amongst prostitutes working in countries where their trade is legal are lower than those amongst the general population.

But even if it were a legalised industry, don't you think that most people involved would still be drawn into it because of poverty and/or emotional problems? I really don't see it as being a job people would aspire to or even be happy to admit doing.

If people end up working in prostitution through poverty or emotional problems that's a symptom of a problem rather than the problem itself. My whole stance in this thread has been that we need to focus on the root causes of human trafficking rather than on clamping down on the industries they are drawn into. I'd apply the same thinking to this question.

Coolguy, I agree with what you're saying.

The fact is, most of the women who end up in prostitution are products of difficult/horrible upbringings or situations. I dont see too many middle class girls from happy families thinking its a good career choice. I think that any person who pays for sex without querying in their minds how this person ended up in this industry is scum. How are people paying to sleep with these girls who obviously arent happy with their situation? That girl Maria from the prime time programme said she constantly cried and cried, but the clients just paid and left. How can people do this? It makes me seethe to the bone.

And no girl has 'hooker' on the top of the list of what they want to be when they grow up. Guys just fool themselves into thinking its because its good money.

I really dont understand the mentality of people who think this is ok...

simu wrote:

Interesting linkeh: http://sisyphe.org/article.php3?id_article=1424

Describes what seems to be a pretty successful tackling of the problem in Sweden.

An interesting article but I disagree with a number of elements of it:

1. If all prostitution is classified as 'violence against women' it degrades those situations where a woman is forced into prostitution or assaulted as part of the prostitution. It's lumping violent crimes with actions that I can't see as wrong in any way (the consensual selling of sexual services).

2. How is a consensual act that does no physical harm to either party a form of violence?

3. And here's where I get my head taken clean off by some of the women that post on boards.ie (I'm not including you in this group simu): I fundamentally disagree with preparing legislation that has a gender bias. The laws regarding prostitution in Sweden were brought in as part of a 'Violence against women' act. Introducing legislation regarding violence against women demeans and undermines existing laws against violence. I can't see why a woman should need separate legislation to deal with violence against her than any legislation which would deal with violence against a man. Assault is assault regardless of the gender of the victim or perpertrator. Any true egalitarian should be able to see this.

4. Again, this is treating the symptoms of a problem rather than the problems themselves (albeit a very successful form of dealing with that problem in a single location). I'd wager that the reduction of numbers of women being trafficked into Sweden can be seen as an increase across other countries. The criminal gangs dealing in this modern form of slave trading won't just pack up and go home, they'll just move their business into other 'markets'.

takola wrote:

Somebody tell me how to fix it???

Removing protectionist barriers to trade and movement of labour would go a huge way to preventing this. Most of the victims of trafficking are lured away from their homes with the promises of jobs such as waitressing/au-pairing etc. Remove the barriers that prevent them from just jumping on a plane and coming over here to take those jobs without the need to go to someone to help smuggle them into the country.

Also, with a truly free global market, the developing countries would quickly catch up with the richer countries (albeit at enormous cost to western society). Unfortunately, we in the western world are too greedy and too fond of our position to allow others to get near our standard of life if it's going to cost us anything.

fits wrote:

The fact is, most of the women who end up in prostitution are products of difficult/horrible upbringings or situations. I dont see too many middle class girls from happy families thinking its a good career choice.

I don't know many men that think of working on an oil rig is a good career choice, however many of them will do it to make ends meet. Most people in this world will not have a personally fulfilling, exciting career. The modern media seems to have sold the opposite to society. The reality is that a job is something that pays for you to live your life. People will make different sacrifices depending on what they want that life to be. Some people are prepared to sacrifice their family life to the point where their own children barely know who they are, some people are prepared to risk their life for a good paycheck (just look at the guys selling cars etc. in Iraq), some people are happy to sleep with people they aren't sexually attracted to for a number of years in order to fund a high lifestyle for themselves in later years. Others, like myself, (or obviously yourself) aren't prepared to make these sacrifices for material wealth. The difference between us is that I don't think that gives us the right to condemn those that are.

That girl Maria from the prime time programme said she constantly cried and cried, but the clients just paid and left. How can people do this? It makes me seethe to the bone.

That made me incredibly angry too. I fully agree with you that these people are sick, depraved ba$tards that I would love to inflict some pain on.

And no girl has 'hooker' on the top of the list of what they want to be when they grow up. Guys just fool themselves into thinking its because its good money.

I don't think any man is that delusional tbh. I could be wrong but I'd imagine it's that many men see it as something someone else is prepared to do for money that they're interested in paying for. A (very) poor analogy would be that I'd really rather not unblock a toilet, a plumber however is prepared to do this and will accept money to do this unpleasant task so I'm happy to pay him to do it. I don't see this as degrading to him. He obviously doesn't see it as degrading to himself. I think most women have a harder time understanding this due to their association of sex with love. Men don't usually make this association as tightly as most women.

I really dont understand the mentality of people who think this is ok...

I neither know anyone who thinks that trafficking women to force into sex slavery is okay nor do I don't know anyone who thinks it's okay to have sex with someone who is being forced into it (and I really have no interest in meeting anyone like that tbh). I know plenty of people that have no problem with someone paying for consensual sex with another person. I've no interest in doing it myself, though I can understand why someone might want to do it and I have no problems with someone doing it.

I learnt quite a lot about this whole area after watching a documentary on MTV presented by Anjelina Jolie (search for sites such as escort watch to see some of this from an escort's viewpoint). I came to the conclusion that while there are girls being exploited and abused within the industry, there are also those who genuinely view this as a valid career choice and have amassed reasonable wealth in terms of property portfolios etc. through their choice of career. The more I found out about it, the more I realised that the industry itself is not a bad thing, it's the lack of regulation surrounding it and the protectionist nature of global economics that allows traffickers to exploit those whose econmic situation leaves vulnerable.

fits wrote:

I understand what you are saying, and in theory you shouldnt need legislation with a gender bias. However, women dont go around raping men and paying for sex with them (well not that I've heard of anyway, and if it happens its very rare). Men arent trafficked into foreigh countries and forced to have sex with strangers for free. These are abuses that only women and children experience. So perhaps there is a need for specific legislation. I didnt read the article
Equal but different.

I could provide links to cases of women raping men, paying escorts, men being trafficked into foreign countries to be forced to work in other industries.

I agree that there is a need for legislation regarding all of these things. I just believe that gender biasing them is not the way to go about creating equality between men and women. As soon as the law treats men and women as what they are, human beings, the sooner the law will be equal and more effective. For example: if laws regarding rape are based on gender, how can a man who is raped by a woman expect to get justice through the courts? I don't dispute that this is a less frequently occuring event but it occurs nonetheless.

And tbh, if you don't read an article, how can you expect anyone to take your opinion on it to be of any worth?