Prostitution

Tar.Aldarion

A lot of women see sex as more than a man would, can't seperate themselves emotionally from it and just have fun.
Some are the opposite.
Personal preferance. If you think something is degrading, does not mean another girl does.

DOLEMAN

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Personal preferance. If you think something is degrading, does not mean another girl does.

Indeed. It's like when I read something along the lines of "offensive material will be removed". I find that a completely vague statement. What is offensive (and disturbing!) to me (example: people who love Jesus) is delightful to another person. Etc etc.

/maybe the Jesus example wasn't the best one in the world, but you catch my drift!

Faith

Interesting thread. I've a few things to say about it.

1. My main problem, or question, is why men are happy to pay for sex? In this day and age, it's really not that difficult to get laid for free. I live quite near a brothel (it masquerades as a "sauna", but everyone knows what it is). I was walking past it one day at 1.45pm on a bright sunny Friday afternoon and a guy walked out of there. He kept his head down, so it made it even more obvious. Now, he was a well dressed business man in his, I'd guess, late 30's. He looked completely respectable. I would say that a guy like him wouldn't have too much trouble finding a woman, or perhaps he even had one, so why was he buying sex during his lunch hour? I genuinely don't understand this.

I recently read a book - run of the mill chick lit, but with a slightly different story - where the main character found out that her boyfriend, who she'd been going out with for two years and had a brilliant relationship with, was having sex with prostitutes in his lunch time. He, and other male characters in the book, defended it by saying that sometimes a man just needs casual, meaningless sex and it meant nothing. If that's the case, then why couldn't he just use his hand?

2. I've got nothing against prostitution, personally, as long as it is consensual. Some women are desperate, some just see it as a good career. If they're happy to do it, then fine. It's when they're not happy to do it that I have a problem with.

3. DadaKopf, you asked would any of the women reading this prostitute themselves if they were short of cash. I could never see myself being in such a place that I needed to. Unless extraordinary circumstances arose that I can't imagine, then no, I wouldn't do that to myself. I am, however, referring to common prostitution. There are other high-class types. I'm not sure if courtesans still exist, but if they do, I wouldn't rule that out. Of course, you need to be special to be a courtesan. The other option is high class call girls. Many women who do this have a small, exclusive client base. They "date" a number of men and act as dates to official functions etc. However, the difference here is that an actual relationship is established between the two people, except it's of a business nature rather than a sexual nature. There is sex involved, but there's also dining out, attending social and business functions etc. Nobody except you and your client know that you're being paid. I've heard lots of stories about college women doing this to earn money to support their expensive lifestyles.

I agree with Tar when he says

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Something is not degrading unless the person in question thinks it is.

Dirk Gently

Faith wrote:

1. My main problem, or question, is why men are happy to pay for sex?

men aren't paying for sex, they're paying to leave with no strings after the sex.

luckat

Would the *men* reading this prostitute themselves if they needed a few shillings?

Tar.Aldarion

Yes. Sex is good, money is good.

Crash

As an aside - Hamburg giant sex issues? never found it worse than any of the other german cities - in fact found it better in general - now nuremburg is where the hookers are at (stayed in a hostel by the red light district there - it was on our walk back - took us a while to cop what it was actually, ah so innocent :P)

CoolGuy2006

&#231 wrote: »

As an aside - Hamburg giant sex issues? never found it worse than any of the other german cities

:-( Have you been near the reperbahn? There is even a side street off it with barriers at each end, only men are allowed to walk down this certain street,. Can you believe that, my girlfriend or any other woman is not allowed walk down this specific street becasue they are female. This is a mans world and it f*cking stinks

CoolGuy2006

Faith wrote:

2. I've got nothing against prostitution, personally, as long as it is consensual. Some women are desperate, some just see it as a good career. If they're happy to do it, then fine. It's when they're not happy to do it that I have a problem with.

well, this is what my original post was supposed to stress. Yes the idea of prostitution may seem like a good idea for many, if there are no Victims involved, but the amount of women working as slaves is very great. I just cant understand the guys who go to Amsterdam and Germany who know that the women they are paying for sex MIGHT be slaves but are willing to put their own gratification ahead of these thoughts.

I would imagine if you stood in Dublin airport and asked all the lads heading over to Amsterdam, "What did they think of Human trafficking", they would probably all say that its a sad shocking thing.

But, when they get there and they have a few beers, start walking around the red light district, these worries and thoughts are insignificant. The facts are out there but most men would like to believe that the girls they are paying for sex are business women.

My main problem is that these men are willing to gamble that the prostitute that they are paying for sex is not a sex slave, just becasue they are horny

SpaceMonkey42

The problem is not prostitution.
The problem is human trafficking for prostitution.
Human trafficking occurs because there is more money in prostitution in the EU than can be earned in eastern europe/africa/etc...
Therefore your argument is not against prostitution, but rather against trade barriers, and international economic inequality. Leading to the "desperate situations" you mentioned.

Is this thread about the rights or wrongs of the economic situations that lead some women to prostitution?

Or is it about the morality of Prostitution itself?

CoolGuy2006

SpaceMonkey42 wrote:

Is this thread about the rights or wrongs of the economic situations that lead some women to prostitution?

Or is it about the morality of Prostitution itself?

without meaning to sound rude, have you read this thread from the beginning? I think i have made my opinion quite clear.

I had a big long response but i erased it becasue i was just repeating myself

When i mention Human trafficking, i am not talking about women who freely travel to another country to make good money as prostitutes. Im not even talking about women being led into prostitution, Im talking about women being FORCED into it.

SpaceMonkey42 wrote:

Or is it about the morality of Prostitution itself?

I would be lying if i said I didnt have a problem with the principle of prostitution. When I brought my friend to get a aids test and he told me what happened i did think less of him

SpaceMonkey42

I am also opposed to people being forced to do things they dont want to do, and indeed may find degrading.

But would you agree with me that there is nothing wrong with a woman freely choosing to have sex for money if she is not being coerced to do so?
And indeed nothing wrong with a horny man paying for it?

Seraphina

i think alot of men like to justify prostitution by saying that they want to do it, and they make lots of money and all that kind of crap.

in the end, to me, its just another thing that promotes the objectification of women.
as a previous poster said, you're not paying for sex, you're paying to walk away afterwards without even knowing her name. you're paying to get her to do what you want without ever feeling guilty.
you're paying to disrespect and use her.

i dont think there are many women that would choose something to do like this. but i think there are many women out there, who after years of abuse and male domination over them, think they are good for nothing else. many women who dont have any other choices. they might not exactly have been forced, but chances are its not on the top of their career priority list.

i dont have a problem with prostitution in theory, but in reality it just reinforces the misogynistic attitudes of many men, and furthers the idea that a woman's sexuality is worth more than any other aspect of her.

CoolGuy2006

SpaceMonkey42 wrote:

But would you agree with me that there is nothing wrong with a woman freely choosing to have sex for money if she is not being coerced to do so?
And indeed nothing wrong with a horny man paying for it?

My problem is with Horny Men travelling abroad to pay for sex in a industry that is rife with human trafficking. I am not saying that every single girl is trafficked, i am just saying that men are prepared to have sex with these girls even though there is a chance she might be there against her will.

Maybe Im not using the right words to get my point across. I suppose i could live with consenting adults having sex in exchange for money. I dont like the idea but i probably wouldnt have started this thread if it was about that.

Guys travel to Amsterdam and Germany with the full knowledge that there are thousands of trafficed women working there against there will yet their gratification is more important than the facts.

Sure they could find a woman who is there becuse it is a career choice but they could also be handing over money to a trafficked girl. How can they know. Its this attitude that worries me. The fact they are willing to risk it just for their own gratification. But guys will keep telling themselves that the women make great money just to make the trip home a bit more guilt free.

So while i know not every prostitute is a sex slave, there is such a huge amount of them out there that I will never understand how guys still make the choice to head over for a lads weekend without even giving it a second thought.

And for everyone who says that they dont have a problem with prostitution. How would you feel if your partner has used prostitutes in the past, how would you feel if your wife or Husband had. How would you feel if your Daughter or Son became a prostitute? How would you feel if your Mum was one?

Would you still say you didnt have a problem with prostitution?

You see, its always ok for some stranger to do it, for them to put their life and health at risk, for them to be treated like an object.

coffee_cake

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

And for everyone who says that they dont have a problem with prostitution. How would you feel if your partner has used prostitutes in the past, how would you feel if your wife or Husband had. How would you feel if your Daughter or Son became a prostitute? How would you feel if your Mum was one?

Would you still say you didnt have a problem with prostitution?

You see, its always ok for some stranger to do it, for them to put their life and health at risk, for them to be treated like an object.

- I wouldn't care as long as they hadn't picked up anything.
As for relatives choosing it as a profession, there are many professions I wouldn't like to see them in but it's their choice as long as they're not getting hurt.
If it's legal(as I think it is in Germany?) and there's regular testing and everything is safe and regulated and above board, and people are doing it of their own free will then by all means go ahead.

Alright, in theory I don't have a problem with it, though the old practices of having women locked up in a room all day to do it with their food coming in through a window (saw about this on a documentary) don't exactly seem nice so I would hope that's not the case anymore. Also the idea of the "comfort women" from back in... where was it? Japan? in WWII? whatever about any other time, is absolutely horrific and I also do NOT approve of that.
Otherwise, go right ahead. I'm certainly not going to sit here and make moral judgements. Not when I've heard stuff like "I'm not having sex with someone til I see that ring on my finger!"; when people go home with others from a bar and it's just as casual, etc.
Yes, it's being abused. So is child labour etc. I don't approve of those either. But it's a different matter to actual willing prostitution.

I wouldn't do it. But then, I also would find the idea of being a biologist horrible, because I just don't like it. Or working in a circus, or being a fisherman (fisherwoman?). I'd hate to have these as professions, but clearly they don't and I'm sure there are women who also chose to be prostitutes.
Again, if everyone is safe and happy and willing, I'm fine with it.
My main concern would always be health and I would hope these guys get tested afterwards.

I wonder if the OP feels so strongly about porn as well...?

CoolGuy2006

bluewolf wrote:

I wonder if the OP feels so strongly about porn as well...?

I have looked at porn in the past but i dont anymore because of the very argument I am making. So yes, i do have the same attitude about porn.

The same thing, yes there are pornos made with well paid actors, blah blah, blah, but there are also pornos made with trafficked women in them. How can the viewer know if they are or arent. It was becasue of this that i stopped looking at any porn

I dont want to be The moral superhero. I could accept prostitution if it was done under the best circumstances. This isnt why i started the thread.

You see, the real world is alot different then that perfect scenario. I know there are women out their making good money and who are working for themselves. This isnt what i am talking about.

Just a silly example: Lets say you have 20 prostitutes in Amsterdam, 10 are there because they choose to be there (they like it and make good money) and the other 10 are kept there against their will.

Now, a group of lads go to Amsterdam and im sure all of them are well aware that trafficking exists, but, they choose to believe that they will certainly not end up with one of these girls. How on earth can they tell but they are willing to take the risk

They go believing that they are paying for a service and it is a win win situation for everyone. Its the fact that these guys take part in this lottery that I find hard to accept. They know that there are trafficked women working there but they choose to believe that the girl they are paying isnt one of them.

CoolGuy2006

bluewolf wrote:

If it's legal(as I think it is in Germany?) and there's regular testing and everything is safe and regulated and above board, and people are doing it of their own free will then by all means go ahead.

The thing is, it is legal in Germany, 100 percent. Still, the the government is expecting 40000 trafficked women to be brought into germany for the duration the the world cup. :-(

Legalisation doest do anything, it just allows criminal gangs to parade their slaves out on the streets.

bluewolf wrote:

- I wouldn't care as long as they hadn't picked up anything.

mmm, you wouldnt mind if your wife told you that her and her mates used to take weekend trips to Amsterdam where she would go from Brothel to Brothel paying men for sex.

Tar.Aldarion

Bluey, you have a wife now?


Coolguy.
Do you wear shoes or brand name clothes or drink coke or eat Nestle products, etc etc. Do you research everything you eat or wear?
There is nothing morally wrong with pristitution, as with eating or the wearing of shoes. Maybe we should outlaw them until we can be safe?

Oh and,
Marriage is for women, a common mode of livelihood, and the total amount of undesired sex endured by women is probably greater in marriage than in prostitution.

coffee_cake

mmm, you wouldnt mind if your wife told you that her and her mates used to take weekend trips to Amsterdam where she would go from Brothel to Brothel paying men for sex.

I'm female and not married And no, I still don't have a problem with the idea of prostitution if it's the female kind. Or the idea that my boyfriend might have slept with any. I don't care. I don't have a hangup about sex or how much people have had as long as it's consenting and safe. I don't have the idea that women must find sex degrading or that they must be nice little virgins. Nor men, either.
I think it's a little sad particularly when I'm sure they could get laid from picking up guys on a pub crawl, but I'm hardly going to say it's a horrible thing and wrong.

As for the rest, I'm in agreement with what Tar just posted.

CoolGuy2006

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Do you wear shoes or brand name clothes or drink coke or eat Nestle products, etc etc. Do you research everything you eat or wear?

yes to all them products, No I dont research any of them.
Bit of a desperate comparison, i know the point you are trying to make but cmon.

coffee_cake

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

yes to all them products, No I dont research any of them.
Bit of a desperate comparison, i know the point you are trying to make but cmon.

Why's it desperate? It IS true that a lot of abuse etc goes on there - most people know it. Nestle in particular seem to be horrible from what I've heard.

CoolGuy2006

bluewolf wrote:

I don't have the idea that women must find sex degrading or that they must be nice little virgins.

where did that come from

Tar.Aldarion

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

yes to all them products, No I dont research any of them.
Bit of a desperate comparison, i know the point you are trying to make but cmon.

How is it desparate, thousands of men, women and children die from it. Your morals stop at inconvenience?
Much more nasty trade than prostitution.
You can't logically be for otlawing one and not the other.

CoolGuy2006

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Your morals stop at inconvenience?

You know nothing about me, dont make assumptions like that.

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Much more nasty trade than prostitution.

Do you use these products?
I think it is unfair to compare the two things. Im obviously naive to go into a supermarket and buy a product without fully researching it.

coffee_cake

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

where did that come from

If your problem is with trafficking, why'd you ask about "if [my] wife went from brothel to brothel paying men for sex"? That question implies to me that it's just the wife sleeping with all those men which is your problem.
And in the first page of the thread, "it's degrading to women" has been used here and there. I hardly see a difference between this and casual sex other than profit.
I could be wrong, but that's how your question came across. Not "oh those poor abused men" but "her going from brothel to brothel".

Tar.Aldarion

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

You know nothing about me, dont make assumptions like that.

I am not making an assumption. I used a question mark and if I had made an assumption, it would have been a presumption, because you yourself said it in your last post. There is no presumtion even, from the last post it is fact.

Do you use these products?

No, I live by my morals.
If there is proof of foul play, a no go.
None of them, vegetarian, vegetarian shoes etc etc.
If you look at the world around you, you will notice how much things are corrupted yet,
It's not hard to buy something from an ethical background if you look.
Also, it does not matter what or or anybody else does, it has no affect on the debate.

How an you logically be against one being legal and for another being legal?

I think it is unfair to compare the two things. Im obviously naive to go into a supermarket and buy a product without fully researching it.

It is not unfair, it's the same thing in a different form. People can easily research some prostitutes etc.
It is not ethically wrong, in and of itself. So it should not be illegal.
Shoes are not morally wrong, in and of themselves, they should not be illegal even if some are from ethically suspect backgrounds.
It's the same thing.
If somebody can possibly be exploited it should not make the thing illegal. Why should it?

CoolGuy2006

bluewolf wrote:

And in the first page of the thread, "it's degrading to women" has been used here and there. I hardly see a difference between this and casual sex other than profit.

I used the word degrading once. I meant it in the context of a sex slave performing sexual acts for a paying customer. I find that degrading. When a man uses a woman as an object for his own sexual gratification then he is degrading her from a woman to a sexual object

I live by my Morals too, I am not really aware of any specific problems with any of the products i buy in the supermarket whereas men going to amsterdam are fully aware of the problem

Tar.Aldarion

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

I live by my Morals too, I am not really aware of any specific problems with any of the products i buy in the supermarket whereas men going to amsterdam are fully aware of the problem

Yet you know of them now, should most things from countries like china etc be made illegal here. Nike? It is a huge list you will find.
Problems within an industry should not make teh industry technically illegal whatsoever. i don't see your point about why it should remain illegal.

CoolGuy2006

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Yet you know of them now, should most things from countries like china etc be made illegal here. Nike? It is a huge list you will find.
Problems within an industry should not make teh industry technically illegal whatsoever. i don't see your point about why it should remain illegal.

you obviously havent read my posts. I dont care if its legal or not. Thats not what im talking about. Its legal in Germany and Holland but still thousands of women are still trafficked there.

I am not talking about the legal aspect, I am not even talkign about if Prostitution is good or bad BUT i do believe there are so many trafficked women In Amsterdam and Germany that men are just fuelling the problem.

I totally understand the point you are making. Still, i find it hard to understand how a guy can go to Amsterdam and pay a girl for sex while knowing there is a huge amount of trafficked women there. I feel these men have to take on a bit more responsibility. Did you read what i posted from IOL? This is really a huge problem all over europe

Tar.Aldarion

CoolGuy2006 wrote:

you obviously havent read my posts. I dont care if its legal or not. Thats not what im talking about. Its legal in Germany and Holland but still thousands of women are still trafficked there.

I am not talking about the legal aspect, I am not even talkign about if Prostitution is good or bad

Ok then, we can ignore that on the thread then.

BUT i do believe there are so many trafficked women In Amsterdam and Germany that men are just fuelling the problem.

Yes there are.

I totally understand the point you are making. Still, i find it hard to understand how a guy can go to Amsterdam and pay a girl for sex while knowing there is a huge amount of trafficked women there. I feel these men have to take on a bit more responsibility.

Why can a guy not go to an up class place that he knows that people were not forced to work at?
Do you agree that these places are ok.
I totally agree that it is not ok to go to a lot of places.

Did you read what i posted from IOL? This is really a huge problem all over europe

Yes, I know well of the problems in the industry and most industries.
If your point is that there is a problem with the industry and men should be careful. I agree. It's pretty obvious.