JFK Assassination

OFDM · 17-08-2005 11:30PM #1

This is the classic source for conspiracy theories, especially due to Oliver Stone's highly inaccurate work of fiction "JFK" starring Kevin Costner.
Dale Meyers has proven fairly well that Kennedy was was shot from the Book Depository. Lee Harvey Owald was also a military marksman capable of making the shot.

But was LHO actually the one pulling the trigger from the 6th floor or was he set up like he said?

Kernel · 19-08-2005 01:08AM

OFDM wrote:

This is the classic source for conspiracy theories, especially due to Oliver Stone's highly inaccurate work of fiction "JFK" starring Kevin Costner.
Dale Meyers has proven fairly well that Kennedy was was shot from the Book Depository. Lee Harvey Owald was also a military marksman capable of making the shot.

But was LHO actually the one pulling the trigger from the 6th floor or was he set up like he said?

Well, this conspiracy is the grandaddy of all conspiracies, and books have been written detailing why LHO didn't or couldn't have done it (he was a patsy, an ideal patsy in my opinion - and he said it before he was whacked). Most people, even those that don't subscribe to conspiracy theories will have their doubts about the 'lone gunman' theory. I thought Stone's JFK was very good, what didn't you believe about it?

ronano · 19-08-2005 02:25AM

I thought the direction of the gun shot was explained away by jfk being on a boaster seat and that the 3 bullets in x amount of seconds as shown in the movie was incorrect?

iregk · 19-08-2005 10:57AM

Well the fact that Lee Harvey scored one of the lowest ranks in his firing exams in the us military doesn't really lead you to believe that he could have done it. Also the gun they found him with, fire, recock the gun and fire again, there is no way there was time to do it. He was set up.

The standard military practise for takign out a target is triangulation set up. Three gun men in a triangle and take the target out when in the center. That way you can't miss.

hawkmoon269 · 19-08-2005 11:01AM

OFDM wrote:

This is the classic source for conspiracy theories, especially due to Oliver Stone's highly inaccurate work of fiction "JFK" starring Kevin Costner.
Dale Meyers has proven fairly well that Kennedy was was shot from the Book Depository. Lee Harvey Owald was also a military marksman capable of making the shot.

But was LHO actually the one pulling the trigger from the 6th floor or was he set up like he said?

Anything I've read about Oswald's shooting capababilities would indicate that they were quite poor. Of course, he could still have got lucky on the day.

I agree with you about the flaws in 'JFK'.

OFDM · 19-08-2005 01:21PM

Kernel wrote:

I thought Stone's JFK was very good, what didn't you believe about it?

iregk wrote:

Well the fact that Lee Harvey scored one of the lowest ranks in his firing exams in the us military doesn't really lead you to believe that he could have done it.

The second quote bases information on Oliver Stone's film. In fact LHO's shooting record proves the exact opposite of what the JFK film establishes. LHO was in fact a crack shot when shooting targets 200 yards away, while the Kennedy shoot would been only 50 yards away.

To answer Kernel, here's just some of the problems I have with Oliver Stone's film:

They say that the FBI "didn't even test if the rifle had been fired that day" - no such test exists to establish whether a gun has been fired on a certain day or not
Willie O'Keefe - this character did not exist and was an amalgamation of 4 incredible witnesses, Perry Russo, David Logan, Raymond Broshears and William Morris.
Garrison's court-room appearance's and closing statement in Clay Shaw's trial - never happened, Garrision was not present for most of the trial and didn't even give the closing statment which was completely different to the one in the film.
Zapruder film establishes the shots were fired in 5.6 second - it doesn't, it establishes that they were fired in 8 to 9 seconds.
The "easiest" shot was when Kennedy was approaching the Book Depository - wrong, a shot approaching, with the angle constantly changing and becoming more acute, would be more difficult than a target moving away becoming less acute.
Female Assistant DA working on case - there was were no women on Garrison's team.
Changes made to motorcade route - no changes were ever made.
Garrison's office was bugged - no evidence of bugging ever found, however Garrison did have paranoid delusions he was being bugged.
Lee Bowers told the Warren Commision that he saw a "flash of light" and "smoke" on the grassy knoll - there is no mention of this in his Warren Commission testimony.
Epileptic man had a seizure to cause a distraction, subsequently vanished after checking into hospital - the man was Jerry Belknap, he was unable to get medical attention because of the assaination and left hospital when he felt better.
"From the left and to the back", establishes shot from the front - when a bullet enters the skull the point of impact does not "explode", it is when the bullet exits a skull that the blow-out occurs, thus establishing a shot from the rear.

There's numerous other works of fiction in that film, including witnesses stating things they never said, the single bullet theory court-room demonstration where the three "actors" are on the same level, and General X who spouts out nothing but complete inaccuracies too long winded to go into here.

The good thing about the JFK film is that it has the best editing I've seen in any movie, was brilliantly shot and creates a exciting atomsphere building to a finale. That why I still watch it if it's on tv today.

The two bad things about it are: 1. it has succeeded in pulling the wool over the eyes everyone who sees it (including me until I researched it indepedently) with it endless list of inaccuracies and outright lies, and 2. the film has become the main source of information for people interested in conspiracy theories about JFK.

angry_fox · 20-08-2005 07:21PM

Where exactly was LHO arrested?

chillywilly · 20-08-2005 07:27PM

in a theater around the corner....or something like that wasnt it?

angry_fox · 20-08-2005 07:34PM

Was he just arrested after the shooting?

OFDM · 20-08-2005 07:50PM

angry_fox wrote:

Was he just arrested after the shooting?

The mind boggles. He was hardly arrested before hand.

I am going to assume your asking how soon after the shooting, in which case LHO was arrested at 1:51pm in the Texas Theater for the murder of Officer J.D. Tippit 37 minutes before. Kennedy had been assassinated 1 hour and 21 minutes before LHO's arrest.

angry_fox · 20-08-2005 09:05PM

angry_fox wrote:

Was he just arrested after the shooting?

A poorly phrased question

Have heard many stories about Oswald, bout his time in Russia, how he was 5'11" on his Department Defense card and when he was arrested he was 5'9"...... Could a Senator Thomas Dodd been involved in the assination?

trishw78 · 22-08-2005 10:10AM

wasn't there a a documentary on National Geographic about an unknown person "Lone Gunman" on the grass knowl... they were able to find everyone except this person they was also sopposed to be a woman seen holding an 8mm video camera that they can't locate, Because on that camera there is irrfutabel evidence of who did it becasue of where she was standing

OFDM · 22-08-2005 01:37PM

trishw78 wrote:

wasn't there a a documentary on National Geographic about an unknown person "Lone Gunman" on the grass knowl... they were able to find everyone except this person they was also sopposed to be a woman seen holding an 8mm video camera that they can't locate, Because on that camera there is irrfutabel evidence of who did it becasue of where she was standing

Dale Meyers' computer graphics simulation convincingly proves that there were only 3 shots, that they created all the wounds on the bodies and that they came from the 6th floor of the book depository. I have yet to see anyone successfully refute his findings

All the talk of multiple gunmen from different locations distracts (possibly by design) from the real issues such as:
Did LHO actually pull the trigger?
Was he acting alone?
What was his motive?

There's other things surrounding the Zapruder film, where frames are supposed to have been removed or images altered, however I presume that most of these are based on bad pseudo-science, like the claims for faked moon-landing photos. I have to look into this further.

trishw78 · 23-08-2005 08:50AM

mmmm... interesting it gets confusing esp. when people start sayin stuff like it was the Mafia or it was 'cause of his affair with Monroe although there still remains mystery over her death as well but thats a discussion for a different thread I think....

DublinWriter · 23-08-2005 08:58AM

iregk wrote:

Well the fact that Lee Harvey scored one of the lowest ranks in his firing exams in the us military doesn't really lead you to believe that he could have done it. Also the gun they found him with, fire, recock the gun and fire again, there is no way there was time to do it. He was set up.

Just a wild guess, but you got that particular 'nugget' from the film JFK didn't you?

On the Meyers documentary that the OP originally mentioned, they had an interview with a Doctor who owned Oswald's original shooting record from the US Marines.

His shooting record in the US Marines showed that Oswald was consitantly capable of shooting a 'head and shoulders' shaped target with 96% accuracy over a 200 Metre range. The fatal JFK shot was at 88 meters from the fifth floor of the book repository.

...plus, the guy also demonstrated with a stopwatch, loading, firing and aiming a rifle similar to the one used by Oswald, three times, in a time frame of 11 seconds.

I have this BBC documentry on MPG somewhere (downloaded from UK Nova) and it proves without doubt that Oswald was the lone gunman.

It also interviews a top ex-KGB man at the time who explains how Oswald got in and out of Russia. It also goes into Ruby's background and explains his background.

Oliver Stone has a lot to answer for.

OFDM · 23-08-2005 10:33PM

Here's some links to the Zapruder film:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neal.mccarthy/jfkvideos.htm
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/?NF=1

maquiladora · 24-08-2005 02:22AM

Something that doesnt get mentioned much....

The U.S. House of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations was established in 1976 to investigate the John F. Kennedy assassination and the Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. assassination. The Committee investigated until 1978, and in 1979 issued its final report :

"The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy."

OFDM · 24-08-2005 12:18PM

maquiladora wrote:

"The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy."

The multiple gunmen theory just doesn't wash. A conspiracy is likely though given LHO had no apparent motive for shooting Kennedy. Most lone nut gunmen would be spouting off their reasons for the assassination, whereas LHO was claiming to be a patsy. This leads me to believe that there were other people behind his actions or that he was working with others but they left him high and drive come shooting time.

Maybe LHO wasn't supposed to be the only gunman?
Maybe he was supposed to meet someone before he shot Tippit, that never showed up?

I have no doubt that LHO was capable and had the opportunity to do the shooting, and that Kennedy was shot from the 6th floor of the Book Depository. I'm not convinced however that he acted alone.

miju · 30-11-2006 12:51PM

lee harvey oswald while in the marines WAS a crack shot and he was also thaught russian , what marine learns russian??

what if i was to say George Bush Senior was one of the main (if not the main) orchestrators of the JFK assanation and it can be proved VERY substantially and that it actually ties in a bit too scarily to 9 /11 conspiracy theorys

bonkey · 30-11-2006 04:05PM

miju wrote:

what if i was to say George Bush Senior was one of the main (if not the main) orchestrators of the JFK assanation and it can be proved VERY substantially and that it actually ties in a bit too scarily to 9 /11 conspiracy theorys

Then I'd say you'd be making a claim without offering substantiation but merely claiming it exists.

I'd also tend to the opinion that "proved very substantially" is a farcical claim. Either it can be proven or it can't. There's no "very substantially" to apply.

I also doubt you can prove it, but rather can make a case that may or may not be true but sounds compelling.

miju · 30-11-2006 05:19PM

well your wrong it can be thanks to declassified memos / documents ( for example )

i'll post the link up later on tonight that has plenty of documentary evidence and the reason it exists is because of the watergate scandal , bay of pigs and the burglar Mr.Hunt as well as bushes close business aides , Hoover and alot of CIA involvement and thats for starters before it even starts to mention skull & bones or nazis (i know sounds ridiculous doesnt it)

in work at the mo so haven't got the link handy , but google Zapata Oil or Operation Zapata to get a basic background of where this will be going to be honest i couldn't believe this when i saw this it's actually so blindingly obvious it's unbelievable

OFDM · 30-11-2006 10:01PM

miju wrote:

well your wrong it can be thanks to declassified memos / documents ( for example )

That is truely proof of nothing - so he overheard someone B.S. about wanting to kill the president.... how does that make him involved in Kennedy's assassination?

miju · 01-12-2006 12:06AM

that was just one example of a declassified memo and wasn't meant as anything in particular (first thing grabbed from wikipedia on Zapata Oil actually)

watch this video the first 20 minutes is the usual conspiracy reasoning so skip if you wish to about 25 minutes in it explains it / substantiates what i'm saying

note: if you've not heard of bohemian grove / skull & bones etc weatch the last 20 minutes for a quick synopsis of it

bonkey · 01-12-2006 01:22PM

miju wrote:

that was just one example of a declassified memo and wasn't meant as anything in particular (first thing grabbed from wikipedia on Zapata Oil actually)

So when you offered it as an example of the type of "proof" you believe you have, you did so knowing it wasn't actually an example of that at all.

watch this video the first 20 minutes is the usual conspiracy reasoning so skip if you wish to about 25 minutes in it explains it / substantiates what i'm saying

Is this just another case of "watch this video, because it makes the argument I'm not going to"?

I'm not interested in trying to debate against a video.

miju · 01-12-2006 05:02PM

it was an example of the kind of evidence (hence me saying example) offered in the documentary but of course if you've not even looked at the video and the evidence / timeline / family tree type connections then why bother post in this thread in the first place

i can make the argument perfectly well to be honest but there's no point in reiterating it with multiple links / references etc when it's all there cleanly presented and better articulated than what i could do

so if you want to watch the segment i referred to then post a constructive reply fine if you dont then thats also fine but don't come here trying to spoil a debate

have you even looked up Zapata Oil?

DublinWriter · 01-12-2006 09:55PM

miju wrote:

lee harvey oswald while in the marines WAS a crack shot and he was also thaught russian , what marine learns russian??

Firstly, The kind of lonely-ass Marine with too much time on his hands and who doesn't mix with his fellow Marines. Fact. Read the testimony of his fellow Marines and also LHO's own brother.

Secondly, know at least something about what you speak. The US Marines have three classes of rifleman , ranging from Sharp-Shooter to Marksman to Expert.

LHO made 2nd Class Marksman grade, meaning he could hit a "head and shoulders" target at 100 metres with over 80% accuracy. The range from the Book Depository to the Presidential Limo was 52 metres. It's amazing it even took him 3 shoots (totally concievable in the 9.2 seconds from the initital shot, through the second 'throat' shot, to the final and fatal head shot)... a Marine graded Marksman would have taken him out in one...but then again he was using a $9.95 uncalibrated mail-order Italian Manlico rifle.

tunaman · 02-12-2006 01:37AM

Here is a short video, including incredibly incriminating footage of the secret service stand down, just before JFK was taken out...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1596619659201820052&q=secret+service

All the lone nut theorists reckon Oswald paid them to stand down?

Diogenes · 03-12-2006 12:40PM

miju wrote:

it was an example of the kind of evidence (hence me saying example) offered in the documentary but of course if you've not even looked at the video and the evidence / timeline / family tree type connections then why bother post in this thread in the first place

i can make the argument perfectly well to be honest but there's no point in reiterating it with multiple links / references etc when it's all there cleanly presented and better articulated than what i could do

Why bother having an original thought or discussion then? We can just all just post links to videos instead of constructing arguments...

so if you want to watch the segment i referred to then post a constructive reply fine if you dont then thats also fine but don't come here trying to spoil a debate

have you even looked up Zapata Oil?

Its been fairly conclusively proven here that Oswald could and did make the shot. Proving that Oswald couldn't have made the shot was the corner stone of the conspiracy, more than one gunmen, therefore we have a conspiracy. Demanding we research an oil company as evidence George Bush had motive is pointless, if you don't prove opportunity or methodology first.

tunaman wrote:

Here is a short video, including incredibly incriminating footage of the secret service stand down, just before JFK was taken out...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...secret+service

All the lone nut theorists reckon Oswald paid them to stand down?

Tunaman baby, thought we'd lost you!

Thats pure speculation, we don't know who gave that order, was it JFK? Perhaps he didn't want to be seen with two agents hanging off the back of his car? Maybe one of the agents had really bad BO? I'm just speculating, just like the narrator of your video.

But there is prescident. On Nov 18th in Tampa Florida JFK ordered the secret service agents off the back of the car.

On November 18 in Tampa, the President ordered the two Secret Service agents off the back bumper of his car. The men from the Committee noted this change, which persisted at Fort Worth, San Antonio and Houston, but they maintained their original plan, which took into account the possibility of instantaneous intervention by the bodyguards.

In fact it was pretty much der rigur to not have agents on the running board of the car

Three Presidents before Kennedy had been assassinated (Lincoln, Garfield, and McKinley), and four others (Jackson, Theodore and Franklin Roosevelt and Truman) had escaped assassination. This record, unequaled in any other stable republic, should have inspired the Secret Service to extra vigilance. Margaret Truman's overzealous bodyguards caused trouble in Sweden, which has some of the toughest policemen in the world. Eisenhower's trips abroad were meticulously organized. But since the advent of television, the protection of the President on American soil had become a difficult job. So that the public could see the President, his bodyguards were banished from the running-boards of the Presidential car.

http://www.voxfux.com/kennedy/farewell/farewell14.html*

It's only "incredibly incriminating" because the voice over tells you its supposed to be. I view it as rampant speculation.

*this is a conspiracy website, but it gives accurate details of the secret service agents activity in the run up to the assasination.

Diogenes · 03-12-2006 01:26PM

miju wrote:

lee harvey oswald while in the marines WAS a crack shot and he was also thaught russian , what marine learns russian??

Oswald was a sharpshooter*, but barely passed his marksmanship* exam with a score of 191. He was a decent shot by Marine standards, by ordinary people's standards he was an impecible shot.

Furthermore he taught himself rudementary Russian, he wasn't taught Russian, so that non sequitor is irrelevent.

what if i was to say George Bush Senior was one of the main (if not the main) orchestrators of the JFK assanation and it can be proved VERY substantially and that it actually ties in a bit too scarily to 9 /11 conspiracy theorys

I'd say I'd need some better evidence that a shoddily put together google video.
[edit]
Just clicked the link to your video miju, nothing makes the heart sink like the words "Alex Jones Productions".

Alex Jones believes the IRA were infiltrated by MI5. Which is true, Mi5 turned several IRA agents. But he goes further, he claims that parts of the IRA campaign were orchestraded by MI5 as part of an NWO campaign. He claims the Omagh bombing was planned and carried out by MI5.

Twenty-nine people were killed and 200 badly injured, when a 500 lb bomb
exploded in a busy shopping street in Omagh, Northern Ireland, on 15 August
1998. The bomb was planted by the dissident republican group, the Real IRA,
although at the time of writing only one individual, Colm Murphy, has been
formally charged. The tragedy claimed nine children as victims.
MI5, along with the Royal Ulster Constabulary, knew at least two days before the
attack not only that an attack would take place, but also the name of the bomb
maker and his car registration. If they had placed this terrorist under surveillance,
the horror of Omagh would have been prevented. British intelligence had a
reason for allowing the bombing to go forward. One of the terrorists in the
bombing team was a double agent. He was working for MI5.

http://www.infowars.com/pdfs/order_ch.PDF

Miju this isn't relevant to JFK but if you're going to claim Alex Jones can "cleanly present and articulate an argument", it's worthwhile presenting an example of his risible research, conclusion leaping, fact distorting behaviour, making reference to an event we all know well, and his contemptable stance on it.

Anyway back to the video, sorry Miju fifteen minutes in he's even using the courtroom scene from Oliver Stone's JFK to "demostrate" the magic bullet theory. Which is the utlimate Strawman argument. I've seen Jones at ground zero lying and shouting "Strawman" "Strawman" at a debunker, well he should know, he's a master at using them. I've seen nothing in this documentary so far that mertis wasting any more time on it.

[/edit]

*I'm using the terms sharpshooter and marksman here in the very specific terms of marine grading of soldier's ability.

Diogenes · 03-12-2006 07:24PM

miju wrote:

in work at the mo so haven't got the link handy , but google Zapata Oil or Operation Zapata to get a basic background of where this will be going to be honest i couldn't believe this when i saw this it's actually so blindingly obvious it's unbelievable

Finally, your fellow moderator Billy the Squid has chastised another poster on a different thread, saying it was unacceptable for posters to tell other users to "google" something as part of their argument.

miju · 04-12-2006 11:21AM

Diogenes wrote:

it was unacceptable for posters to tell other users to "google" something as part of their argument.

it is but READ my post correctly, next time before posting particularly the part where it says havent got the link at the moment but google it in the meantime ......... meanwhile later that day the links get posted , try to pick holes in the theories so we can have a healthy debate etc but please don't start nitpicking and going off topic

Diogenes wrote:

Alex Jones believes the IRA were infiltrated by MI5. Which is true, Mi5 turned several IRA agents. But he goes further, he claims that parts of the IRA campaign were orchestraded by MI5 as part of an NWO campaign. He claims the Omagh bombing was planned and carried out by MI5.

off topic for a moment it's not beyond the realms of plausibility given some of their previous escapades , alex jones can quite often put across a well articulated argument , i'll be one of the first to admit however that some of his "theories" are out there in the stratosphere

Diogenes wrote:

Anyway back to the video, sorry Miju fifteen minutes in he's even using the courtroom scene from Oliver Stone's JFK to "demostrate" the magic bullet theory. .........I've seen nothing in this documentary so far that mertis wasting any more time on it.

well then you didn't read my first post correctly , i said quite clearly first 30 mins or so is the usual conspiracy reasoning , it was the last 45 mins that i was referring to which spends the whole time stringing together the bush connection quite well actually with bay of pigs , zapata oil , cuban americans etc, senator connolly changing his description of events significantly , bush denying he was CIA at the time despite it being shown otherwise , etc but of course you never got to that part :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Diogenes wrote:

Why bother having an original thought or discussion then? We can just all just post links to videos instead of constructing arguments...

given the above and you couldn't even read the part i was referring to in the video my presumption of not wasting the effort typing up a big synopsis full of links was right

Diogenes wrote:

Its been fairly conclusively proven here that Oswald could and did make the shot

how has it been conclusively proven?, there is an abundance of experts who will disagree with you as well as the natural laws of physics that he was the only one

JFK Assassination

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