M3 Clonee-Kells route selection and archaelogical info

mackerski · 13-12-2004 06:27PM

BrianD wrote:

This is not an intercity highway

I'm well aware of the route. I never said it was an intercity road. I said it was a long-distance one. It is. It also stands to benefit traffic using the route as the national road that it is. When I use the N3, I'm usually going all the way.

So by all means let's examine the rights and wrongs of having Motorway from Clonee to Kells. Let's particularly decide whether building one near the Hill of Tara is any worse than the status quo. But right now I don't see why I should give a fiddlers whether the local council has the willpower to enforce responsible development once the road is built. It's a separate argument (and a more important one).

Dermot

Metrobest · 13-12-2004 08:57PM

BrianD wrote:

How wrong you are Metrobest. Of course the retail will follow, of course the housing will follow!

Tara is not just a hill. I suggest you take a walk up there (preferably sooner than later). The existing N3 is close to the hill but hardly as obtrusive as a 4 lane highway will be. I find it hard to believe that you have no concept of the importance of Tara!!! In fact I find it quite sad. I suppose Newgrange nearby is just a bunch of rocks?

. If anybody doesn't think that development along the routes or between the roads won't happen then they are living a pipedream.

No, I like Newgrange. I'd be against development at Newgrange. So would most people. You see, I have a sense of scale: you can't protect EVERY monument; some are more special than others. Tara, i'm afraid, tends to fall into the "it's-a-hill" category. And obviously our forefathers didn't think much of it - they built houses and farms proximate to it, not to mention the dangerously choked N3 which is twice as near the hill as the M3 will be!

luckat · 17-12-2004 12:45PM

They'll have no luck of it.

BrianD · 17-12-2004 03:14PM

Well while I have concerns about the siting of the M3 close to Tara, i don't see it as the key issue. It is unfortunate that Tara will be blighted by this unnecessary piece of infrastructure. My arguement is that M3 should never be built. There are other infrastructure links within Co/ Meath that should be considered in terms of the overall development of the county and its transportation needs.

You are living in another world if you do not think that the construction of the M3 will not put pressure on planning and development in its vicinity. The convenience of commuters should be secondary to this issue. Unfortunately, it is small minded business and political interested who seem to have the say over professional planners. A huge opportunity missed for co. Meath.

BTW the N3 is not "dangerously choked" as you say - only where it is funnelled on the existing dual carriageway into the M50 and at Dunshaughlin. It is quite clear that the bypass at Dunshaughlin approved in 1999 was deliberately delayed to ease the passage of the tolled M3.

Victor · 17-12-2004 11:31PM

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/4667441?view=Eircomnet

Minister claims he cannot 'vary' Tara route
From:ireland.com
Friday, 17th December, 2004

The Minister for the Environment has said it is not within his power to significantly vary the route of the proposed M3 motorway through Co Meath.

Commenting as members of the Oireachtas Committee on the Environment visited archaeological sites in the Tara/Skryne valley yesterday, Mr Roche said his role in the current controversy was to decide on the method of preservation of archaeological artefacts. "But to vary the route is not my decision" he said.

Under the National Monuments Amendment Act the Minister has the power to direct how individual archaeological sites are preserved, including the authority to insist they remain in situ.

The Minister added the route selection had been "confirmed by Bord Pleanála", but critics of the road say he could effectively block it by insisting that each archaeological site remain intact and in the ground.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/4667913?view=Eircomnet

Minister says he cannot 'vary' M3 route
From:ireland.com
Friday, 17th December, 2004

The Minister for the Environment has said it is not within his power to significantly vary the route of the proposed M3 motorway through Co Meath.

Commenting as members of the Oireachtas Committee on the Environment visited archaeological sites in the Tara/Skryne valley yesterday, Mr Roche said his role in the current controversy was to decide on the method of preservation of archaeological artefacts. "But to vary the route is not my decision" he said.

Under the National Monuments Amendment Act the Minister has the power to direct how individual archaeological sites are preserved, including the authority to insist they remain in situ.

While the Minister added the route selection had been "confirmed by Bord Pleanála", critics of the road scheme say he could effectively block it by insisting that each archaeological site remain intact and in the ground.

Earlier yesterday Mr Michael Egan, corporate affairs director of the National Roads Authority (NRA), answered questions from the Oireachtas Environment Committee as they toured the area.

Mr Egan told Mr Eamon Gilmore TD that the NRA was hoping to archaeologically excavate and record findings at each site so far identified in the Tara area.

Should a "show-stopper" be discovered - and the Minister wants it preserved in situ - the National Monuments Act provided for the specific section of the motorway to be varied. This could "include putting the road over a monument or around a site without reference to moving the entire motorway or going through the planning process from start", he said.

The process involves the planning authority preparing a report for Bord Pleanála which would then decide if a new environmental impact assessment for the specific section was necessary.

Mr Egan said it was "not unlikely" that such a show stopper would be encountered but he said it could be handled without changing the route "from one valley to the next".

However, Dr George Eogan, professor of Celtic Archaeology at UCD, who was also on the site visit, said that Tara "is defined as a landscape" and the area could not be seen as a collection of separate archaeological sites.

Insisting that "Tara" incorporates the Hill of Tara and the Hill of Skryne as well as the surrounding landscape, Prof Eogan said it was comparable to the pre-historic sites at Loughcrew and at Brú na Boinne .

"The Tara complex is a term we must use. It is the same size as Brú na Boinne which was accepted as a world heritage site by UNESCO," he said.

Dr Edel Bhreathnach, who edited a history of Tara which is to be published next spring, agreed that Tara should be described as a landscape. Dr Bhreathnach said she and other archaeologists were refused permission to attend the visit by Oireachtas members. The Minister is not expected to announce his decision on the preservation of the artefacts until early next year.

Metrobest · 19-12-2004 05:34PM

BrianD wrote:

You are living in another world if you do not think that the construction of the M3 will not put pressure on planning and development in its vicinity. The convenience of commuters should be secondary to this issue. Unfortunately, it is small minded business and political interested who seem to have the say over professional planners. A huge opportunity missed for co. Meath.

BTW the N3 is not "dangerously choked" as you say - only where it is funnelled on the existing dual carriageway into the M50 and at Dunshaughlin. It is quite clear that the bypass at Dunshaughlin approved in 1999 was deliberately delayed to ease the passage of the tolled M3.

I've said already, the existing N3 is a substandard road. That's the bottom line. Our 19th century forefathers could never have imagined the sheer mad amount of people who today use it.

So we have to modernise. That doesn't mean ugly retail parks plastered all over the hill of Tara. That will NEVER happen. Instead, what is means is that the many thousand of drivers, from as far afield as Fermeanagh, will benefit massively from a safe, comfortable modern road, a wonderful feat of engineering, and if along the drive they get a pleasant view of Tara, what about it?

If our forefathers had had the know-how to build the M3, they'd build it. And ironically, the people who shout loudest about the destruction of sacred Tara would have been the kings' slaves building it!

Off for my annual extended Xmas break. Back in '05. Merry Christmas to all on forum.

Metrobest.

cournioni · 20-12-2004 10:56AM

I live in East Cavan and I use both the M1 and N3 to get to Dublin. The N3 for normal trips to the city centre etc. and the M1 normally for the Airport.

The N3 is now just as bad as the old N1 between Drogheda (where I used to join the route) and Dublin just before the M1 was built. Which means it is needed. Anyone that travels this route normally will tell you that it IS needed.

So people who do not travel this route, please stop arguing against it. It is needed for the people of Meath, Cavan, Fermanagh and alot of Donegal. By the time this motorway is fully built the old N3 will be beyond a nightmare, it will be a living hell.

BrianD · 20-12-2004 07:38PM

I've said already, the existing N3 is a substandard road. That's the bottom line. Our 19th century forefathers could never have imagined the sheer mad amount of people who today use it.

I travel it regularly. There is nothing substandard about it (especially compared to other Irish main roads) - it is has always been a well maintained road and certainly sufficiently wide enough for existing and future travel. That's not to say that there is not scope for improvements but it certainly does not justify a complete repacement by a tolled motorway to Kells. Perhaps you don't use it yourself metrobest.

Make no doubt about it - the retail and urban development will follow. Only recently 800 houses were turned down by ABP south of Dunshaughlin and a further 80 "tourist apartments" are being appealed at the old workhouse outside of Dunshaughlin. These developments depend on the N3 no longer being a national primary once the M3 is open. It will follow as sure as day follows night. Any planner will tell you that development plans aren't worth the paper theyt are printed on and as soon as infrastructure such as the m3 arrives new developments can be justified.

Victor · 10-02-2005 11:40PM

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/4988174?view=Eircomnet

Committee tells Save Tara group to apologise for 'innuendo'
From:ireland.com
Thursday, 10th February, 2005

Representatives of the Save Tara - Skryne Valley group were told they should moderate their presentation and apologise for "innuendo" during an Oireachtas Transport Committee hearing yesterday.

In strongly-worded exchanges, the chairman of the committee, Mr John Ellis TD, told Dr Muireann Ní Bhrolchain that unless she and fellow campaigner Mr Vincent Salafia refrained from making allegations against named individuals the hearing would have to be adjourned.

Mr Ellis also warned the group that it should not make allegations against the clerk and staff of the committee, and should confine commentary to transport issues.

Mr Ellis also complained of "misinformation" in relation to the number of letters received by the committee on the motorway issue, and "innuendo" which he said was contained in the group's presentation.

A number of other committee members also complained about the tone of the presentation, with Sen Timmy Dooley (FF) claiming it undermined the committee "by questioning our integrity".

He added: "I object in the strongest possible terms to the kind of language being used."

Sen Dooley said the people who came before the committee to give evidence must accept the guidelines laid down by the committee if they wanted to be heard.

Mr Peter Power TD (FF) also objected to the presentation, saying he felt "a line had been crossed".

Objections from the TD and senators began almost as soon as Mr Salafia began his presentation, and having mentioned the name of Mahon tribunal witness Mr Frank Dunlop in connection with the controversy, Mr Salafia was asked to withdraw "the innuendo" and apologise.

Mr Salafia explained that the group was concerned it had been "excluded" from a recent Environment Committee hearing.

The group said it had supplied the Transport Committee with about 2,000 letters which objected to the motorway.

However, this was rejected out of hand by Mr Ellis, who said the committee had received about 200 such letters.

When Mr Salafia said he wished to "disagree completely", a number of TDs and senators said Mr Salafia had cast a slur on the clerk and staff of the committee.

Mr Ellis said what was being suggested was that essentially letters which were intended for the committee had not been passed on by the staff.

Sen Dooley also objected, saying the committee had the "utmost confidence" in the clerk and staff "and their ability to count".

However, independent senator Mr David Norris asked if it was fair that the committee should subject those who give evidence "to a fusillade of abuse", adding that "it is not appropriate".

Continuing the group's presentation, Dr Ní Bhrolchain was repeatedly advised by Mr Ellis that she should refrain from delving too deeply into the archaeological and environmental impacts of the road as the committee was concerned only with transport issues.

"How can we discuss this," she asked, before adding: "Since when did A&E (archaeology and environment) become dirty words?"

Metrobest · 11-02-2005 05:21PM

The "Sava Tara" campaigners are getting desperate. So are the Irish Times journalists who seem determined to slant their coverage. We never hear from the silent majority, the people who want this motorway to be built ASAP. I hate the way the Save Tara green goblins are hijacking this issue, pretending they have public support. The commuters of Navan, Dunshaughlin and Dunboyne need this motorway.

Something has got to be done. The senseless "Save" Tara campaign is causing immense suffering - to taxpayers, to commuters.. and to newspaper readers bored out of their trees by this ridiculous protest. I feel that if the "Save Tara" group delays this project any further, they should have to pay the costs. That would soon silence them!

Remember the hippies who hugged the trees in the Glen O'The Downs? Who now would seriously contend that that road was a mistake? Maybe the Irish Times should take a look at its own Trees supplement, published Tuesday, in which options for tree-lined roads were discussed. It was stated that there are now MORE trees on the Glen than ever!

What this means for Tara is this. Screened by trees, miles away from the Hill, twice as far away as the existing N3, the new M3 will be completely unobtrusive.

murphaph · 11-02-2005 06:58PM

Metrobest wrote:

The commuters of Navan, Dunshaughlin and Dunboyne need this motorway

Like a hole in the head.

Metrobest wrote:

Something has got to be done

Build the Interconnector (as well as completing Spencer Dock Station) and at the same time reopen Navan line completely including a multi-storey P&R at Pace and anywhere else that's deemed appropriate together with appropriate link roads. Upgrade the road to high quality 2+1 (it's already bloody wide in places) and bypass Kells/Navan/Dunshaughlin with same or DC. Grade separate Fairyhouse cross roads. Job done. The N3 is primarily a commuter route and is quite nice to drive outside the rush hour.

I'm no tree hugger, but I believe that area is quite special to our history and whilst I take on board your points about it being treated poorly in the past, people were more ignorant then. The main reason I don't believe in this motorway is that it encourages even more car based commuting into Dublin. This could easily be transfered to rail with adequate P&Rs and if the towns were just bypassed and road upgraded to 2+1 then there would be no need to toll it so there would be no disincentive to motorists to use the P&R (having paid a hefty couple of tolls would you want to now pay a train fare? I think not). The Dunshaughlin bypass was put on hold so this road would be built IMHO.

Victor · 13-02-2005 09:25PM

I wonder if putting the P&R on the Navan side of the toll would have a bearing on things?

Metrobest wrote:

The senseless "Save" Tara campaign is causing immense suffering

Quick, report them to Amnesty International.

murphaph · 13-02-2005 09:38PM

Victor wrote:

I wonder if putting the P&R on the Navan side of the toll would have a bearing on things?

So do Iarnrod Eireann. It's mentioned quite cleraly in their initial feaseablity study as being a point of concern. They propose coming to some arrangement with the future toll operator as one way to sort it out. Personally I think it's a disgrace that this would even be considered. The P&R should cost as little as possible to use if we really wnt people to change modes.

BrianD · 13-02-2005 11:08PM

Metrobest wrote:

The "Sava Tara" campaigners are getting desperate. So are the Irish Times journalists who seem determined to slant their coverage. We never hear from the silent majority, the people who want this motorway to be built ASAP. I hate the way the Save Tara green goblins are hijacking this issue, pretending they have public support. The commuters of Navan, Dunshaughlin and Dunboyne need this motorway.

Something has got to be done. The senseless "Save" Tara campaign is causing immense suffering - to taxpayers, to commuters.. and to newspaper readers bored out of their trees by this ridiculous protest. I feel that if the "Save Tara" group delays this project any further, they should have to pay the costs. That would soon silence them!

Remember the hippies who hugged the trees in the Glen O'The Downs? Who now would seriously contend that that road was a mistake? Maybe the Irish Times should take a look at its own Trees supplement, published Tuesday, in which options for tree-lined roads were discussed. It was stated that there are now MORE trees on the Glen than ever!

What this means for Tara is this. Screened by trees, miles away from the Hill, twice as far away as the existing N3, the new M3 will be completely unobtrusive.

This sounds a little desperate to me! There is no widespread public support for this m-way. There is only support for it because the public have been told that the m-way is the bypass for Dunshaughlin and Navan. Obviously they are then saying, we support that!

Fairplay to the Save Tara and Carrickmines protestors and long may they continue. The M3 is a monument to bad planning and infrastructural development. Unfortunately, there is no stopping it now but the issues raised during this debate will hopefully influence future planning and decisions in regard to major roads and transport investment.

The protestors have highlighted the impact of the road on the important and historic area of Tara. Certainly it is debatable will the planned road have more impact than the current road from a visual point of view. Possibly not. What it does mean - and a point most people prefer to ignore - is that the M3 will have a definite impact on the area it serves. We will see the gradual sub-urbanisation of the areas along the route - this process has already started. This is where we shall see the ultimate ruin of the Tara/Skryne valley not just as a historic area but a rural area that does not need to be urbanised.

Metro your posting smacks of fascism. The Tara folks are contributing to this debate. It is quite clear that the NRA and the Government don't have the answers because they never had a rational plan for why this route needed to be built in the first place.

DMC · 13-02-2005 11:16PM

No widespread support, BrianD?

http://www.unison.ie/meath_chronicle/stories.php3?ca=34&si=1335229&issue_id=12051

120 days spent in gridlock

MANY Meath commuters have spent their entire working lives waiting for a better road infrastructure, the Oireachtas Committee on Transport was told last week.

Representatives of Dunshaughlin, Kells and Navan Chambers of Commerce said a bypass for Dunshaughlin was first mooted in 1973 and stressed that Meath needed a proper road structure, and in particular, the M3 as proposed.

On the delegation were Adrienne Bowen, Dunshaughlin Commerce; Penny McGowan, Kells, and Eamonn Gavigan, Navan. They said the economy of Meath and the region to the north-west was crying out for infrastructure.

“No industry of any significance is prepared to invest in an area deficient in infrastructure such as roads, telecommunications, access to airports and ports, power supply. Meath has been left undeveloped in these areas. We are submitting to you that the area is a sleeping giant and that given a proper infrastructure, it is ripe for extensive development,” they argued.

“Many people spend four hours a day in traffic - equivalent to 120 working days a year. These are hours that would be far better invested in productive activity.”

They stressed that no further time should be lost in progressing the M3. “It is not feasible to spend any further time debating the issue or considering putting it through a further planning process. All of that has been done. We need this motorway and we need it now,” they submitted.

http://www.unison.ie/meath_chronicle/stories.php3?ca=38&si=1335209&issue_id=12051

M3 survey: 32% felt road would go right through Hill of Tara

THE Meath Chambers of Commerce are calling for an immediate green light for the proposed M3 motorway following a recent survey which showed that 78.8 per cent of those surveyed were in favour of, or did not object to the proposed route.

The research also found that just 37 per cent of respondents could identify the correct route of the proposed motorway and 32 per cent incorrectly believed that the proposed route went right through the Hill of Tara itself.

In January, the Chambers of Commerce in Navan, Dunshaughlin and Kells commissioned Orchard Research and Analysis Ltd, Drogheda, to conduct research into issues relating to work and travel along the N3 corridor.

Information was collected by way of 500 door-to-door interviews during the period between 22nd January 2005 and 4th February 2005. Interviews were conducted during the evenings and at weekends.

Interviews were conducted in Dunshaughlin, Navan and Kells, with interview locations being selected to cover the social composition of the area. No information was given during interview about the client who had commissioned the research, nor was it stated whether the client supported or opposed the proposed M3 motorway.

Of the 500 respondents, 260 (52%) were male, and 240 (48%) were female. Over 46% indicated that they worked in Dublin. Respondents were asked whether or not they were in favour of a motorway being built between Dublin and Kells.

Overall, while over 87% of respondents were in favour or strongly in favour of such a motorway being built, only 4.81% of respondents indicated that they were against or strongly against such a proposal.

Respondents were given a map, which showed the current N3 from Dunshaughlin to Kells. It included three possible routes for the proposed motorway. One marked a straight line between Dunshaughlin and Kells; the second route was the current proposed route, and the third route was shown going over the Hill of Tara.

Respondents were asked to indicate which route they felt was the proposed route and only 37% of respondents were able to correctly identify the proposed route, with 32.2% of respondents believing that the proposed route was going over the Hill of Tara.

Metrobest · 14-02-2005 01:34PM

Thanks for those articles, DMC. Funny how those findings were never reported in the Irish Times. Obviously Frank McDonald didn't want the facts to get in the way of a good story.

And the findings show just how terribly the protesters have twisted the debate. One third of respondents believing the motorway goes over the hill of Tara! This is akin to the percentage of Americans who are convinced Saddam was behind 911. It just shows, if you repeat mistruths often enough, people will swallow them hook, line and sinker.

murphaph · 14-02-2005 05:21PM

Come on lads, everyone knows in this day and age that if you want your survey to prove something then it will. You just get your pollsters to ask questions a certain way. You think their survey bothered telling the 500 people that a railway track bed parallels their N3 :rolleyes:

BrianD · 14-02-2005 06:08PM

Metrobest wrote:

Thanks for those articles, DMC. Funny how those findings were never reported in the Irish Times. Obviously Frank McDonald didn't want the facts to get in the way of a good story.

And the findings show just how terribly the protesters have twisted the debate. One third of respondents believing the motorway goes over the hill of Tara! This is akin to the percentage of Americans who are convinced Saddam was behind 911. It just shows, if you repeat mistruths often enough, people will swallow them hook, line and sinker.

I don't think the Irish Times has mis-reported anything in relation to the M3 debate. It has certainly questioned Government policy without taking it as de facto. The protestors have not twisted the debate in manner shape or form and I challenge you to demonstrate where they have done so. I don't recall any item in the media where it was reported that the m-way passes over the hill of Tara.

Frank McDonald is a fair and honest reporter and I have always admired the stance he has taken both in relation to this story and other issues relating to development in this country.

jank · 14-02-2005 06:51PM

Metrobest your digging a hole for yourself it seems
Who carried out these surveys?
Who do they represent?

Oh thats right the business people of those districts becasue this road will make those people richer.

doh!! :rolleyes:
The chamber of commerce of these towns dont give 2 ****s about the enviroment and history. All the care for is the $$$$

[penny drops!!]

By the way im all for this road. But not for the sake of destroying and area.
It smacks of bad planning and if it goes ahead then it will make carrigemines look like a tea party. The rail link should be opened up too

I feel that if the "Save Tara" group delays this project any further, they should have to pay the costs. That would soon silence them!

That says it all!?

chewy · 14-02-2005 08:58PM

Respondents were given a map, which showed the current N3 from Dunshaughlin to Kells. It included three possible routes for the proposed motorway. One marked a straight line between Dunshaughlin and Kells; the second route was the current proposed route, and the third route was shown going over the Hill of Tara.

Respondents were asked to indicate which route they felt was the proposed route and only 37% of respondents were able to correctly identify the proposed route, with 32.2% of respondents believing that the proposed route was going over the Hill of Tara.

that is soooooooooooooooooooo a slanted survey no one ever said it would go straight over tara, the only people i've heard saying that are the pro m3 business men in some sort of faux rebuttal. it gave no option for the route preffered my those wishing to avoid the tara skynre valley so it was a total fake of a survey... and it not just for the resident of meath to decide anyway...

somebody pointed out that the row is over 3km of a 70 km motorway build the by passes there nothing stoping the nra from doing that...

BrianD · 14-02-2005 10:33PM

The M3 is not being delayed at all...they are working away as we speak. The powers that be are finding that they have to debate the topic a little more and hold a few more enquiries and site visits. These are all concurrent to the ongoing work. Unless somebody shouts stop! the M3 will continue to be built.

chewy · 15-02-2005 12:09AM

waht parts?

jank · 15-02-2005 06:49PM

chewy wrote:

Respondents were given a map, which showed the current N3 from Dunshaughlin to Kells. It included three possible routes for the proposed motorway. One marked a straight line between Dunshaughlin and Kells; the second route was the current proposed route, and the third route was shown going over the Hill of Tara.

Respondents were asked to indicate which route they felt was the proposed route and only 37% of respondents were able to correctly identify the proposed route, with 32.2% of respondents believing that the proposed route was going over the Hill of Tara.

that is soooooooooooooooooooo a slanted survey no one ever said it would go straight over tara, the only people i've heard saying that are the pro m3 business men in some sort of faux rebuttal. it gave no option for the route preffered my those wishing to avoid the tara skynre valley so it was a total fake of a survey... and it not just for the resident of meath to decide anyway...

somebody pointed out that the row is over 3km of a 70 km motorway build the by passes there nothing stoping the nra from doing that...

Well said. Those people in the meath whodesigned this "save the M3" mantra think who ever is against the motorway is anti-road, anti-progress, anti-modern anti-meath even.

Just like the bush mantra "your with us or against us!"

When is Mr cullen making his decsion anyway? its in march right!

DMC · 15-02-2005 07:15PM

chewy wrote:

somebody pointed out that the row is over 3km of a 70 km motorway build the by passes there nothing stoping the nra from doing that...

I think, for convenience sake, they want it done in one fail swoop.

As for accurate reporting, probably the Meath Chronicle would be the most impartial reporter, after all, its their readership and not Dublin-centric. From what I have seen, they have given a lot of space in recent weeks to both sides, whearas, before, we only heard from the Save Tara groups in the letters pages etc.

Over-simplifications in headlines and first paragraphs probably would make some people think they'll bulldoze the Hill.

mackerski · 15-02-2005 07:50PM

BrianD wrote:

Frank McDonald is a fair and honest reporter and I have always admired the stance he has taken both in relation to this story and other issues relating to development in this country.

My experience is the opposite. There's a place for journalists who are not objective - that place is an opinions column. Frank McDonald seems incapable of covering any road-based controversies impartially. I remember once hearing him declare the Stillorgan Dual-Carriageway to be practically of motorway standard. Nuff said.

Dermot

Victor · 15-02-2005 11:54PM

Respondents were asked to indicate which route they felt was the proposed route and only 37% of respondents were able to correctly identify the proposed route, with 32.2% of respondents believing that the proposed route was going over the Hill of Tara.

(a) 37% of respondents were able to correctly identify the proposed route,
(b) 32.2% of respondents believing that the proposed route was going over the Hill of Tara

means
(c) 30.8% thought it was a perfect straight line.

I call the thoroughness and bias in this poll into question.

murphaph · 16-02-2005 09:14AM

Victor wrote:

(c) 30.8% thought it was a perfect straight line.

The NRA are the new Roman conquerors though.....

This road's gonna cost an awful lot of your hard earned salt.

jlang · 16-02-2005 10:25AM

Victor wrote:

(a) 37% of respondents were able to correctly identify the proposed route,
(b) 32.2% of respondents believing that the proposed route was going over the Hill of Tara

means
(c) 30.8% thought it was a perfect straight line.

I call the thoroughness and bias in this poll into question.

Also roughly 1/3 of the people picked each option - i.e. statistically they hadn't a clue and just picked randomly.

impr0v · 16-02-2005 05:34PM

murphaph wrote:

Come on lads, everyone knows in this day and age that if you want your survey to prove something then it will. You just get your pollsters to ask questions a certain way. You think their survey bothered telling the 500 people that a railway track bed parallels their N3 :rolleyes:

If it did, and the responses backed up your argument would you then consider the survey results important?

BrianD wrote:

I don't recall any item in the media where it was reported that the m-way passes over the hill of Tara.

It was certainly reported in this way in the Sunday Tribune, and I distinctly recall the phrase 'through the hill of Tara' being used in other media too, including radio bulletins. The phrase was used mostly towards the start of the paper's so-called campaign to save Tara, but they have since watered down their phraseology somewhat to something akin to 'through the Hill of Tara and Skryne Valley area'.

BrianD wrote:

The M3 is not being delayed at all...they are working away as we speak. The powers that be are finding that they have to debate the topic a little more and hold a few more enquiries and site visits. These are all concurrent to the ongoing work. Unless somebody shouts stop! the M3 will continue to be built.

That's correct. This is effectively a done deal, and the idea that Cullen or anyone else has to make a decions on whether it will go ahead or not is more mis-reporting of the facts. He has some decisions to make on the resolution of otherwise of the archaeological sites which have been identified, but nothing that will stop the construction. The only thing that will do that is a court injunction.

jlang wrote:

Also roughly 1/3 of the people picked each option - i.e. statistically they hadn't a clue and just picked randomly.

God bless those ignorant people of Meath. :rolleyes:

impr0v · 16-02-2005 06:01PM

BrianD wrote:

...What it does mean - and a point most people prefer to ignore - is that the M3 will have a definite impact on the area it serves. We will see the gradual sub-urbanisation of the areas along the route - this process has already started. This is where we shall see the ultimate ruin of the Tara/Skryne valley not just as a historic area but a rural area that does not need to be urbanised..

Already started? According to the 46% of people mentioned in the above (now dis-credited by murphaph) survey, the process is in full flight, without a motorway. The people buying houses in the villages along the route of the current N3 and driving into the city are presumably doing so because of the cost of living and buying a house in the city, I can't imagine they are choosing to commute because they like the time they spend on the current N3. The process can't be sustained and the only way to cut down on the amount of people being forced to commute long distances to work is to promote development, and urbanisation, in regions other than Dublin. Isn't this the point of a good network of infrastructure? To allow other areas of the country, apart from the capital, to develop commerically and to allow good access between those areas and Dublin.

In the short to medium term sure, it's going to aid the sub-urbanisation of the corridor, mainly around the interchanges and existing villages, but people have to live and work somewhere, and this process will happen with or without the motorway. As you probably know, villages like Rathoath in Meath are some of the fastest growing villages in the country. You can't cater for an increasing population and a strong economy with little clusters of thatched houses across the country and a metropolis in Dublin, expecially when it's so badly served with public transport and the spread is out, rather than up. However, in the long term, providing good a good network of infrastructure across the country will help the spread the development to other areas, and lead to a more balanced development of the country.

Because the corridor of the M3 will get more urbanised due to better access to Dublin, doesn't mean that Tara/Skryne Valley will. That's ultimately the decision of Meath County Council Planning Department, and indirectly the responsibility of the people of Meath, since they elect the County Councillors. I can't imagine them allowing a planning free for all in the region simply because a motorway now runs though it.

M3 Clonee-Kells route selection and archaelogical info

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