Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Decentralisation

1171820222375

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,259 ✭✭✭RicardoSmith


    I support the Government's proposals as a way of partially redressing the East-West economic imbalance.

    I don't fully understand the scale of civil-servant opposition to this. Many houses in Dublin are valued at 700,000 euro. If you sell up you can easily afford a house elsewhere in the coutnry and have loads of cash into the bargain.

    What if all you family friend and relatives all live in Dublin, your partner works in Dublin, all your interests are in Dublin. You've lived in Dublin all your life.

    Sure you can just change jobs. But that can be very difficult. If you've always found it easy, then maybe you've been very lucky!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    I think we can forget about arcadegames ridiculous comments..... We logically debated them previously. Just how many civil servants have 700,000 Euro houses do you think?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,259 ✭✭✭RicardoSmith


    I'm only adding my 2 cents. (All I can afford ATM)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭arcadegame2004


    Unions representing civil servants have reacted angrily to suggestions by the Department of Finance that promotion prospects might be limited to staff who sign up for decentralisation.

    The department said such discussions were still at an early stage, but that policy on promotions had to take account of the reality of decentralisation.

    It is less than a month since the Government announced its first phase of decentralisation, the relocation of 3,500 civil servants to 20 locations outside Dublin by 2008.

    The Government intends decentralising around 7,000 more jobs in the Civil Service and State agencies.

    The Civil Public and Services Union said the protection of Dublin-based staff was a condition of its continued support for decentralisation.

    The Association of Higher Civil and Public Servants and the Public Service Executive Union have also expressed their total opposition to any attempts to limit promotion prospects to staff who sign up for decentralisation.

    As sure as night follows day, the public-sector unions will always exploit each and every structural change their company/profession goes through as an excuse for industrial-action. The same thing is happening in An Post and with the obstruction of the Health-Service reforms intended to reduce bureaucracy to free up resources for patients.

    The Government has every right to decentralise the civil-service. It was a campaign promise in the last General Election and so they have a mandate to implement this reform. The movement of entire departments to the regions outside Dublin will mean more job opportunities for persons in those regions in future as they will already be living in the area.

    We are a democracy and we have already given the Government a democratic mandate to do this. I am sorry but the will of the people must be enforced. I agree with favouring civil servants who accept decentralisation for promotion, provided they have the abilities required. Carrot and stick is the right way to achieve decentralisation. The public-sector unions are only making themselves even more unpopular with the long suffering (from strikes) Irish public.

    As I've said in the past on this issue, some people are not being very patriotic and need to put the national interest first. If you have a house worth many hundreds of thousands of euros, then you don't have any sympathy from me if you're refusing to sell up to relocate in an area where house prices are 2/3rds lower, leaving you with a bonanza of cash left over! :rolleyes: Looking gift horses in the mouth springs to mind! :rolleyes:


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    I'm not even sure why I'm responding to the ritriole but anyway:

    If you are genuinely interested in reading about the mandate for government and what it is acknowledged to contain- please read the following:

    http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/upload/publications/1480.pdf

    You will note much mention of spatial strategy- and a statement that "we will move forward decentralisation of government offices and agencies taking into account the National Spatial Strategy"- that is the sole mention of decentralisation in the entire 36 page document.

    As you will note- this, the fifth wave of decentralisation, totally ignores the national spatial strategy- so unfortunately I have to conclude that your entire point about it being mandated is moot.

    Public sector unions are not challenging decentralisation- if you cared or even bothered to read some of the literature from the unions you would note that the CPSU and the PSEU were among those who had agreed decentralisation added (against the wishes of politicians) to the government agenda.

    The government has the right to decentralise the civil-service- agreed- but in consultation with those affected, as per agreed in the last partnership document "Sustaining Progress"- which by the way the civil service also gave up the right to strike in (we already gave up the right to arbitration that is available to the private sector- including the labour court). So- the civil servants are not threatening to strike- we are stating however, that the current decentralisation proposals, as drip fed to the media, are in breach of the spirit of the agreement (if not the factual content).

    As per previously you are insinuating that civil servants are on a gravy train, that we all have nice houses in Dublin and can sell up and make a killing down the country...... the only people making killings on houses are the builders and those hoarding land. The average civil servant qualifies for assistance on the affordable housing scheme- because we cannot afford to purchase accomodation at all (though quite a lot of people end up buying a little apartment with assistance from relatives and deposits from credit unions- and then renting out rooms to students and fellow employees to try to pay their bills).

    The vast bulk of civil servants are in clerical grades- and earn (after 16 years) a maximum of Euro 605.83 per week before tax (31,612 per annum before tax)- i.e. we cannot afford to buy houses in your beloved Wexford- whether we want to or not.

    Source:
    http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=2713&CatID=28&StartDate=1+January+2004&m=c

    As for the will of the people- you are very very good at making grandiose statements without anything behind them. If you genuinely think the will of the people of Ireland is massively in favour of decentralisation- perhaps you can explain how the PDs ran 16 candidates in Laois-Offally, Tom Parlon's home territory- and he the architect of decentralisation- delivering among other things, the Department of Agriculture and Food to Portlaoise- and guess how many of their candidates were elected? Zero....

    Source:

    http://www.politics.ie/modules.php?name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=1932&page=2

    The only part of your gift horse that bears any semblence to reality is protruding from it's posterior.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭arcadegame2004


    smccarrick wrote:
    I'm not even sure why I'm responding to the ritriole but anyway:

    If you are genuinely interested in reading about the mandate for government and what it is acknowledged to contain- please read the following:

    http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/upload/publications/1480.pdf

    You will note much mention of spatial strategy- and a statement that "we will move forward decentralisation of government offices and agencies taking into account the National Spatial Strategy"- that is the sole mention of decentralisation in the entire 36 page document.

    As you will note- this, the fifth wave of decentralisation, totally ignores the national spatial strategy- so unfortunately I have to conclude that your entire point about it being mandated is moot.

    Public sector unions are not challenging decentralisation- if you cared or even bothered to read some of the literature from the unions you would note that the CPSU and the PSEU were among those who had agreed decentralisation added (against the wishes of politicians) to the government agenda.

    The government has the right to decentralise the civil-service- agreed- but in consultation with those affected, as per agreed in the last partnership document "Sustaining Progress"- which by the way the civil service also gave up the right to strike in (we already gave up the right to arbitration that is available to the private sector- including the labour court). So- the civil servants are not threatening to strike- we are stating however, that the current decentralisation proposals, as drip fed to the media, are in breach of the spirit of the agreement (if not the factual content).

    As per previously you are insinuating that civil servants are on a gravy train, that we all have nice houses in Dublin and can sell up and make a killing down the country...... the only people making killings on houses are the builders and those hoarding land. The average civil servant qualifies for assistance on the affordable housing scheme- because we cannot afford to purchase accomodation at all (though quite a lot of people end up buying a little apartment with assistance from relatives and deposits from credit unions- and then renting out rooms to students and fellow employees to try to pay their bills).

    The vast bulk of civil servants are in clerical grades- and earn (after 16 years) a maximum of Euro 605.83 per week before tax (31,612 per annum before tax)- i.e. we cannot afford to buy houses in your beloved Wexford- whether we want to or not.

    Source:
    http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=2713&CatID=28&StartDate=1+January+2004&m=c

    As for the will of the people- you are very very good at making grandiose statements without anything behind them. If you genuinely think the will of the people of Ireland is massively in favour of decentralisation- perhaps you can explain how the PDs ran 16 candidates in Laois-Offally, Tom Parlon's home territory- and he the architect of decentralisation- delivering among other things, the Department of Agriculture and Food to Portlaoise- and guess how many of their candidates were elected? Zero....

    Source:

    http://www.politics.ie/modules.php?name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=1932&page=2

    The only part of your gift horse that bears any semblence to reality is protruding from it's posterior.

    Well first of all, this country is more than just Laois-Offaly. Also, "averages" can often be misleading, because they can mask wide statistical divergences between portions of the sample. Also, don't forget people living with parents and living in homes they have inherited from their parents.

    I can understand why persons in Dublin would oppose decentralisation e.g. fears of job-opportunities in the civil-service going to other parts of the country. However, unemployment in Dublin is only 2% and places like Co.Donegal (unemployment 10-20%) are more than due a fairer regional policy that recognises the existence of other areas of the country other than Dublin.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Well first of all, this country is more than just Laois-Offaly. Also, "averages" can often be misleading, because they can mask wide statistical divergences between portions of the sample. Also, don't forget people living with parents and living in homes they have inherited from their parents.

    I can understand why persons in Dublin would oppose decentralisation e.g. fears of job-opportunities in the civil-service going to other parts of the country. However, unemployment in Dublin is only 2% and places like Co.Donegal (unemployment 10-20%) are more than due a fairer regional policy that recognises the existence of other areas of the country other than Dublin.

    Averages can indeed be misleading- however, they statistically portray an accurate overall picture. That is- certainly there may be one civil servant somewhere who has inherited a castle- but the far greater liklihood is that for each of he/she, there are thousands of others in 2 bedroom flats/bedsits.

    What is your point about people living with their parents? Are you advocating they continue to do so? Where are you going with the point- I don't understand your point.

    Ditto- people who have inherited houses from their parents- do you have any statistics to show that you are actually making a valid point? We were not a society of 1 child families historically- so in most cases a single child would not inherit the family home. Its an argument you are trying to use to murky the water- and justify your remark that Dublin based civil servants must be living in 700,000 Euro houses, when the average price of houses in Wexford is only 289,000- so we're all going to make a tidy killing on Dublin houses....... The whole idea is contemptous.

    Btw- unemployment in Dublin (city and county) is actually 4.2% and not 2%. Where are you getting your extremely low statistics from? Also, on the same point- the current unemployment rate in Co. Donegal, is 5.7%- certainly its higher than in Dublin- but its nowhere near your 10-20% pie in the sky figures. There are, however, areas of Dublin, with unemployment rates in excess of 12%- which are the highest in the country at the moment.

    I'd love to know where you are getting your statistics from- you cannot just pull stats out of thin air (well, you can, but they are totally meaningless). Then again- I had this exact argument with you a few months back, not that it got me anywhere then either......

    Heres a site you might be interested in having a little look at- and then you may like to adjust your figures: (The Irish National Organisation of the Unemployed) They even have a nice little map of the country with the unemployment rates on it.....

    http://www.inou.ie/

    S.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,733 ✭✭✭pete


    Well first of all, this country is more than just Laois-Offaly.

    Funny you should mention that. As was pointed out a couple of pages back, a massive 945 of the first few thousand posts targetted as first / early movers are going to that very constituency:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2117605&postcount=522

    ps the answer to the question posed in that post is "Cowen & Parlon"

    I'm not even going to dignify the rest of your nonsense with a response. Did you think people had forgotten your made up "statistics" on unemployment and civil servant's house values already?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    The Government has every right to decentralise the civil-service. It was a campaign promise in the last General Election and so they have a mandate to implement this reform. The movement of entire departments to the regions outside Dublin will mean more job opportunities for persons in those regions in future as they will already be living in the area.

    At what cost?

    The proponents of the relocation scheme have still not told the electorate how much the scheme will cost. So far, the only figures available have been estimates (which will surely over-run) for the buildings and furniture. The cost in terms of re-training, huge loss of intellectual capital and increased operational costs has not been quantified.

    The human cost, in terms of family break-ups and distress to those on which it is being imposed is also being ignored. It is as if Dublin people are government chattels.

    Were the electorate told that about the cost? I suspect the mandate that the government got was based on people voting for 'mom & apple pie'. The public did not vote for this particular plan and the way it is being implemented, they voted for something that looked like a nice idea and that would not cost anything & hurt nobody.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    I'll part answer the "at what cost".
    First of all- the human cost is unquantifiable- but suffice to say it will be far higher than the financial cost.
    The financial cost (at the moment) is estimated to be 900 million between now and 2008- and positive cashflow (from building ownership etc) is not expected to happen until 2026. These are best case scenarios from the Department of Finance- and totally ignore anything other than accomodation and infrastructural costs associated with the buildings themselves (i.e. telecoms upgrades for areas are NOT included in these figures).

    The "mandate" for decentralisation- is a single sentence in a 36 page document. It clearly links decentralisation to the spatial strategy- the decentralisation proposals as they stand tear that self-same strategy into tatters. Are the politicians really cynical in the extreme in their thinking they can buy votes with their hair brained plans? Personally I don't believe they have the intelligence to put such cynicism into action- hopefully events will prove me right.....


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭ishmael whale


    I can understand why persons in Dublin would oppose decentralisation e.g. fears of job-opportunities in the civil-service going to other parts of the country. However, unemployment in Dublin is only 2% and places like Co.Donegal (unemployment 10-20%) are more than due a fairer regional policy that recognises the existence of other areas of the country other than Dublin.

    As has been exhaustively pointed out, the planned decentralisation will make no meaningful contribution to regional development. It will simply add to the cost of providing public services for no benefit, and quite likely negative benefit (also known as loss).

    There’s lots of good stuff in the research done for the spatial strategy which reflects this. I supply a quote below which had a particular resonance with me. It essentially points out that, even when firms are located in regional locations, they still tend to source their need for downstream services from Dublin as local towns are too small to offer the wherewithal they need. Equally, consumer demand does little to boost the Irish domestic economy. This is Leaving Cert stuff, as the extract below from the Indo’s economics exam brief shows.

    The proposed decentralisation does nothing to address these realities. Therefore we can already predict it will fail to make a meaningful contribution to regional development, based on our practical experience to date. What might make a difference is building up sizeable regional centres, such as Limerick and Cork. Doing useful things like developing a couple of regional hospitals that can offer alternative services to Dublin’s national facilities and, say, continuing the development of UCC and UL does more to promote regional development that moving around office staff.

    This is really only common sense. For example, according to the 2002 Census there are 45,250 persons employed in Wexford. The decentralisation proposes to increase this (eventually) by 375. I think its intuitively clear that Wexford with a workforce of 45,250 will be in much the same situation as Wexford with a workforce of 45,625. Equally, Dublin will not be much impacted if its workforce of 508,030 is reduced by 10,000 - it would nearly gets lost in the rounding.

    The decentralisation achieves nothing and simply soaks resources needed for other things.

    http://www.irishspatialstrategy.ie/docs/report8.pdf
    p.30

    “ …the difference between Dublin and other places is much greater than a comparison of population size would suggest. …... The study shows that even the large urban centres outside Dublin offer relatively poor environments either for new service firms or for other firms wishing to interface with a range of good quality services. The comparative advantage of Dublin is evident in regard to all aspects of service activity but it is perhaps best exemplified in respect to the leakage to Dublin for the purchase of producer services i.e. business consultancy, PR, marketing and advertising. …… There is a high level of leakage from provincial towns towards the capital in terms of both financial flows and employment. The reasons for not using local firms related principally to the poor quality of the local supply and to protect confidentiality.”


    http://www.unison.ie/features/education/exambrief/pdfs/leaving/economics_o&h3.pdf

    “Ireland is also a very open economy. Last year visible exports were over 90 billion Euro and visible imports over 55B Euro. These are huge figures when compared with a G.N.P. of 112B Euro. So if the govt. decides to cut taxes (this is an example of an expansionary fiscal policy) and also cuts interest rates (which is an expansionary monetary policy) the combined effect is to give people extra spending power. Aggregate demand increases – however a huge % of this extra spending power leaks abroad in the form of higher demand for imports.”

    http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/decentralisation/decencafsept04.pdf
    Gives figures on proposed decentralisations.

    http://www.cso.ie/census/pdfs/vol5_t1-18.pdf
    Includes stats on workforce by county.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭Dinarius


    The public did not vote for this particular plan and the way it is being implemented, they voted for something that looked like a nice idea and that would not cost anything & hurt nobody.[/QUOTE]

    Very well put.

    The concept sounded good.

    The implementation is a crock of you know what. All based purely on parish pump ministerial favouritism. You just have to look at how many FASers Parlon is trying to shift to his patch.

    D.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    From 'Silicon Republic' http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news/news.nv?storyid=single4200
    .......And speaking of decentralisation, the impact of that decision a year ago has yet to emerge in terms of the technology deployment strategies. Quite apart from the organisational and operational headaches that face our public administrators, this act of fragmentation — which is really what the Irish form of decentralisation is — has presented the IT communities in government departments and semi-state bodies with considerable headaches, not least of which is the implications for an already serious shortage of skills and expertise. This situation sees frequent use of the large consultancy houses, many of whom are using public service contracts as training grounds for their rookies. The trend in the decentralisation process next year will see some developments of IT centres outside (but perhaps not too far) from Dublin and within in easy reach of each other — ‘stylisation’ perhaps?.......

    The cost just seems to be going up & up.....


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    Quote This is really only common sense. For example, according to the 2002 Census there are 45,250 persons employed in Wexford. The decentralisation proposes to increase this (eventually) by 375. I think its intuitively clear that Wexford with a workforce of 45,250 will be in much the same situation as Wexford with a workforce of 45,625. Equally, Dublin will not be much impacted if its workforce of 508,030 is reduced by 10,000 - it would nearly gets lost in the rounding.

    Most of the towns the jobs are going to are small eg population 10,000 or 15,000. A few hundred people will help these towns, and will attract and support other jobs ...eg service jobs. ( restaurants and shops for the civil servants etc ).


    Quote “ …the difference between Dublin and other places is much greater than a comparison of population size would suggest. …... The study shows that even the large urban centres outside Dublin offer relatively poor environments either for new service firms or for other firms wishing to interface with a range of good quality services. The comparative advantage of Dublin is evident in regard to all aspects of service activity but it is perhaps best exemplified in respect to the leakage to Dublin for the purchase of producer services i.e. business consultancy, PR, marketing and advertising. …… There is a high level of leakage from provincial towns towards the capital in terms of both financial flows and employment. The reasons for not using local firms related principally to the poor quality of the local supply and to protect confidentiality.”

    I do not know about that, the skills found outside Dublin in the bigger towns often equal if not exceed those found in the capital.
    The well educated workforce around Ireland do not want to see all of their taxes going to employ their homesick relations and friends in the far away , smoky, traffic congested city of Dublin.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭uncivilservant


    No agreement reached at decentralisation talks

    11 January 2005 20:32
    Union leaders have met with Department of Finance officials to discuss their opposition to the Government's latest proposals on decentralisation.

    The Department has proposed limiting promotions in the civil service to those willing to move to decentralised offices, but the unions say they want the proposal dropped.

    The meeting was described as robust.

    No agreement has been reached but union leaders say there is no room for manoeuvre on what they believe will turn Dublin into a wasteland for civil servants.

    "robust".... i love that euphemism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭uncivilservant


    true wrote:
    Quote This is really only common sense. For example, according to the 2002 Census there are 45,250 persons employed in Wexford. The decentralisation proposes to increase this (eventually) by 375. I think its intuitively clear that Wexford with a workforce of 45,250 will be in much the same situation as Wexford with a workforce of 45,625. Equally, Dublin will not be much impacted if its workforce of 508,030 is reduced by 10,000 - it would nearly gets lost in the rounding.

    Most of the towns the jobs are going to are small eg population 10,000 or 15,000. A few hundred people will help these towns, and will attract and support other jobs ...eg service jobs. ( restaurants and shops for the civil servants etc ).


    Quote “ …the difference between Dublin and other places is much greater than a comparison of population size would suggest. …... The study shows that even the large urban centres outside Dublin offer relatively poor environments either for new service firms or for other firms wishing to interface with a range of good quality services. The comparative advantage of Dublin is evident in regard to all aspects of service activity but it is perhaps best exemplified in respect to the leakage to Dublin for the purchase of producer services i.e. business consultancy, PR, marketing and advertising. …… There is a high level of leakage from provincial towns towards the capital in terms of both financial flows and employment. The reasons for not using local firms related principally to the poor quality of the local supply and to protect confidentiality.”

    I do not know about that, the skills found outside Dublin in the bigger towns often equal if not exceed those found in the capital.
    The well educated workforce around Ireland do not want to see all of their taxes going to employ their homesick relations and friends in the far away , smoky, traffic congested city of Dublin.

    You're making some pretty big assumptions there...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    true wrote:
    Most of the towns the jobs are going to are small eg population 10,000 or 15,000. A few hundred people will help these towns, and will attract and support other jobs ...eg service jobs. ( restaurants and shops for the civil servants etc ).

    Public servants are not government chattels.

    At what financial and human cost are you prepared to justify creating a few shop/restaurant jobs in these small towns?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭ishmael whale


    True’s post simply repeats a lot of the misconceptions that have already been refuted.
    true wrote:
    Most of the towns the jobs are going to are small eg population 10,000 or 15,000. A few hundred people will help these towns,

    The whole point about the National Spatial Strategy is that attempting to promote development in every small town has prevented any regional location from developing into a centre that can compete with Dublin. So, ironically, continuing this scattergun policy simply ensures that Dublin remains the main centre for growth.
    true wrote:
    and will attract and support other jobs ...eg service jobs. ( restaurants and shops for the civil servants etc )..

    I cannot understand how a statement like this can be repeated so soon after I have posted an excerpt from the Irish Independent’s Leaving Cert Economics exam brief to illustrate that anyone with a basic level of understanding of the Irish economy knows that domestic consumer demand does little to promote domestic economic growth, as we typically buy imported goods.
    true wrote:
    I do not know about that, the skills found outside Dublin in the bigger towns often equal if not exceed those found in the capital..

    It seems reasonable to expect that Dublin will be able to offer an array of skilled professionals. It seems equally reasonable to suggest that smaller regional locations will be less well endowed in this respect. I have posted up an excerpt from a study conducted to inform the National Spatial Strategy which confirms this reasonable proposition.

    Can I suggest that that regional development will not be promoted by attempting to deny the real problems that exist.
    true wrote:
    The well educated workforce around Ireland do not want to see all of their taxes going.

    I have posted above relevant material from the CSO showing regional incomes and taxes by household. The taxes paid by people outside Dublin and the Mid East region typically go right back to the county of origin in the form of social transfers. Dublin accounts for 60% of net taxes paid by households. This increases to 80% when the mid-East region is added (Kildare, Meath and Wicklow). Cork accounts for about 10%. The rest of the country combined only contributes 10%.

    I’m posting the relevant link again in the hope that this point can also be laid to rest.

    http://www.cso.ie/publications/finance/regincome.pdf
    true wrote:
    to employ their homesick relations and friends.

    In case you haven’t noticed, the allegedly homesick relations don’t want to move.
    true wrote:
    in the far away , smoky, traffic congested city of Dublin.

    One of the main reasons Dublin in traffic congested (but hardly that smokey anymore) is because its infrastructure is deficient. Dublin is not a large city, and there’s no particular reason why its transportation needs cannot be addressed if national resources are sensibly allocated, and not wasted on white elephants in the regions.

    In the past we tried to stifle Dublin and scattered resources in the regions. The result was many homesick friends and relations leaving illegally in far away smoky traffic congested New York.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    I think that arguing against the scheme based on rational planning ideas is futile. FF are behaving like a kid that has decided what it wants for Christmas (or the next election) and will ignore all logic. One foolish Dublin FF councillor told me last June that 'decentralisation would be worth it at all costs'. He lost his seat, after only getting 300 votes.

    It is important to highlight the escalating and still not fully quantified costs & how this this means high taxes & reduced services to pay for it. The public should be allowed choose between tax cuts or decentralisation.

    There's no guarantee that whoever decides to work in FF's favoured towns will actually move there. This could lead to backlash from the local property speculators.

    I think FF will rue the day it politicised public service jobs, many of those affected, their careers ended, may feel they've nothing to lose by some tuneful 'whistle-blowing'......


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Any news in the last week or two?
    All quiet on the Western Front?


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭uncivilservant


    smccarrick wrote:
    Any news in the last week or two?
    All quiet on the Western Front?

    Sometimes it feels like people are hoping that if nobody talks about it, decentralisation will just go away.

    A meeting of the Decentralisation sub-committee of General Council was scheduled for January 26th. It will be interesting to see if there were any moves on either the promotions issues or the Dublin CAF.

    Quite frankly it's about time the Unions surveyed their members to find out who "expressed an interest" in moving because they actually want to move & who did so just to protect their position for as long as possible...

    A recent unscientific poll said:
    How did you fill in your CAF form?
    What CAF form? I'm staying in Dublin! 164
    Happily submitted my preferred locations. 34
    Said I'd go with my Department, but no plans to leave Dublin. 21
    Submitted, but with no locations. I'm staying in Dublin! 6

    Total votes: 225


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭uncivilservant


    Extracts from the minutes of the Decentralisation Sub-Committee of General Council meeting held on Wednesday 26 January 2005.
    ... the PSEU Representative raised the fact that the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources had set out proposals to make all internal promotions conditional on people being willing to re-locate, despite the fact that there was no central agreement to this approach and that it was absolutely clear that if any agreement was to be reached it could not and would not involve acceptance of the total elimination of Dublin promotions.
    The PSEU Representative also made reference to the proposals as regards change of preferences. In particular it was noted that staff had made choices without full information. In some cases staff had listed locations close to each other and their first preference was not in the list of ‘early movers’ and their second preference location was in that list but was now over-subscribed by first preferences. Similarly the Department of Social and Family Affairs had made changes to their proposals after staff had made their choices.

    ...

    The Official Side Representatives stated that all staff had made choices with the same information. To some extent, they noted a ‘chicken-and-egg’ situation in that one criterion to determine ‘early movers’ had been the high level of applicants for that location.
    ... the PSEU Representative pointed out that there were staff serving currently in Dublin outside of the city-centre and many of these staff had chosen deliberately to locate near their homes. It was noted that it would be a bitter irony if the programme of Decentralisation was to result in people being forced to re-locate into the centre of the city, contrary to their wishes.

    http://www.pseu.ie/docs/Decent23.doc (or here if you don't have MS Word, plug plug plug)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    From 'SiliconRepublic': http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news/news.nv?storyid=single4418
    Rift over IT in public sector

    10.02.2005 - Deep divisions between departmental IT heads and central policy makers became clear in a government briefing held by research analysts from Gartner last week. The first of three speakers, John Kost, managing vice-president, was clearly bemused at the exchange of opinions that erupted when he canvassed views from delegates.
    “Based on the comments today, there doesn’t seem to be a strong central focus on the IT aspects of decentralisation and that’s symptomatic of a bigger problem,” he told siliconrepublic.com after the event. He was ostensibly there to talk about shared services but soon found himself embroiled in a discussion on Ireland’s current position on e-government and its plans for decentralisation in particular.

    “I was surprised by the reaction. Given the profile of the Flynn Report I would have assumed that there was a fairly substantial managerial effort in making sure it was executed properly,” he said. “The surprising part to me was that in many ways departments seem to have been left to their own devices to figure out what’s the answer that works best for them.”

    Several high-profile public servants were terse in their analysis of decentralisation, describing it as a crazy political decision where logic didn’t apply. “All that seems to matter is where you do your work, not what you do or how you do it,” said one delegate.

    Andrea Di Maio, Gartner research vice-president, said the process of decentralisation would affect Ireland’s wider e-government agenda. He reasoned that the move to more integrated services would inevitably be hampered when “minds might be somewhere else”. As one delegate put it: “There is a vision [around e-government] that has been discussed at secretary general level but decentralisation has muddied the waters.”

    A particular aspect of decentralisation that irked the audience, and one that was addressed in the Gartner briefing, was the uncertainty surrounding technology staff. Around 75pc of the skilled IT employees based in Dublin do not want to be relocated under the terms of the decentralisation programme. According to Gartner research, employment issues inevitably arise from decentralisation. “There is a critical mass when the right skills are in the right place, serving the right organisations. You keep the highest demand employees where the skillsets are in the largest supply,” said Kost.

    The Flynn Report came up with a plan for three regional IT clusters but the view from the floor at the Gartner event was that this was a pragmatic response in the absence of real discussion. There was concern that having the right people in the right place was going to be a rarity and that there would have to be a greater dependency on contract work.

    Discussions with the unions about re-evaluating the role of IT personnel had been carried out centrally by the Department of Finance but had come to nothing. The Centre of Management and Organisation Development within the department — came in for some criticism, not only for letting this issue fall off the agenda but for a general inability to engage in discussion with departmental secretary generals. As one senior civil servant put it: “We had discussion but there was no dialogue.”

    “Given the reputation of Ireland as a software leader, one would have the impression that there was an enlightened leadership,” commented Kost. “There is nothing wrong with decentralisation as a political agenda. There is nothing wrong with the strategy or objectives but there are lots of ways to execute it wrong from an IT perspective. There has to be a clear, integrated enterprise strategy on how to do this properly, otherwise the result, particularly around IT, could be significantly less responsive than what they have now.”

    Managing technology and defining a strategy in the public sector is something that Kost knows a good deal about. From 1992-1996 he worked in Michigan as the first state chief information officer (CIO). Creating a central CIO for the entire Irish public sector is an option that has been discussed and it’s an approach that Kost obviously has some sympathy with. “The idea of a central CIO makes a great deal of sense if the leadership at the top of Government is paying enough attention. But having a CIO doesn’t guarantee anything except a focal point for conversation. If the Government doesn’t want that conversation about IT, because they don’t care or maybe because they don’t understand it, then it’s all pointless.”

    He argued that the quality of IT leadership is driven in part by the quality of overall management and the execution of government. “Regardless of whether it’s a country or a state in the US, the fundamental thing is about who is responsible for the day-to-day execution and whether they understand the issues.”

    In his presentation Di Maio shared the assertion that someone in a CIO-type function had to take responsibility for what he referred to as the first tier of e-government, simple integration between different agencies. Both speakers agreed that the biggest obstacle to progress was not technology but the “turf wars”, the management and interdepartmental power struggles.

    Judging by the mood of attendees at this particular event, turf wars are a problem that the Irish Government is more than familiar with.

    By Ian Campbell


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭ishmael whale


    Interesting to see the clear picture coming from this discussion that the proposed decentralisation is simply about moving bodies to locations. Efficiency and value in service delivery takes second place.

    The article below is interesting in illustrating the long term costs and constraints built in to this approach to decentralisation. The taxpayer should simply be getting a benefit from lower administrative costs arising from the simplified system of paying EU farming grants. Instead, the redeployment of the surplus staff becomes a political issue. There has already been a case like this in Ballina involving staff left after the abolition of housing grants. There may well be other cases that haven’t even made the local press. (What Department is going to issue a press release announcing ‘We’ve no idea what to do with twenty staff in a decentralised location who are now surplus to requirements’)

    If this kind of problem is emerging in respect of the offices already decentralised, alarm bells should be ringing.

    http://www.unison.ie/tuam_herald/stories.php3?ca=34&si=1336254&issue_id=12058
    ‘Decentralisation gone daft’ as Dept. jobs move from Galway to Portlaoise


    By TOM GILMORE
    FEARS that as many as 40 of the 60 clerical workers based in the Department of Agriculture offices in Galway could be asked to move to Portlaoise have been described as “decentralisation gone daft” by Deputy Paul Connaughton. In the latest twist in the ongoing saga it could be the middle of this year before the Galway workers know their fate.

    The downsizing of both Department of Agriculture offices at Castlebar and at Dock Road in Galway (formerly Hynes Buildings) is causing great annoyance to staff members, many of whom live in the greater Tuam area.
    Deputy Connaughton who raised the matter in the Dail last week said the Department of Agriculture decided to substantially reduce clerical officer numbers in both offices and the only guarantee given was that the affected workforce could be accommodated at Portlaoise…….

    “I fully appreciate because of the changeover to the Single Payment system introduced by the E.U. this year there will be a reduced complement of staff required. But the idea of transferring staff from Galway or Castlebar right in the middle of a national decentralisation programme seems to be daft,” said Deputy Connaughton. “Whatever tasks these workers will undertake in Portlaoise could be done just as well in Galway or Castlebar. …………


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,746 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    many of whom live in the greater Tuam area.
    Politics baaaad, selling newspapers goood. :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    I think it goes to show that the culchies are only in favour of decentralisation when the jackeens are being screwed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,259 ✭✭✭RicardoSmith


    Its just a political football for no reason other than they can, and it really hasn't been thought through. Its a half arsed plan.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Form the Irish Independent:
    KILDARE is facing a major crisis if measures are not put in place to cater for its huge population explosion, councillors warned yesterday.

    The county is growing so fast, it has almost overtaken the latest Regional Planning Guidelines (RPGs) for 2008. There are between 170,000 and 175,000 people estimated to be living in the county compared to expected RPG forecasts of 181,000 in three years' time.

    Councillors began their review of the draft Development Plan 2005-2011 yesterday.

    The county manager's report also included a recommendation for an investigation into the possibility of a relief motorway from Naas to Dublin.

    Cllr Tony McEvoy stressed 22,600 additional houses were being accommodated in the lifetime of the plan, bringing an estimated population of 240,000 by 2011.

    Cllr Catherine Murphy said she could see transport and education crises if steps were not taken.

    Kildare is one of the counties chosen to receive a number of offices under the government's 'decentralisation' scheme where public servants will be forced to chose between supporting Fianna Fail policy or lose their careers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭uncivilservant


    It hasn't gone away, you know....


    Figures for expressions of interest in the 'first movers' locations named in the Decentralisation Implementation Group's November 2004 Report on the 'Selection of organisations/locations for inclusion in the first phase of moves' have been made available via the PSEU website (relevent appendix here)

    They make for interesting reading, considering these locations are considered those most likely to succeed.

    Killarney, Clonakilty, Drogheda, Newbridge, Trim & Loughrea are oversubscribed in most, if not all, grades.

    However... Portlaoise, Knock, Carlow, Wexford, Mullingar, Athlone, Tullamore, Limerick, Longford, Listowel & Sligo all show major shortfalls, particularly among the more senior grades.

    It should be borne in mind that no indication is given of where these applications are coming from (i.e. are they existing job holders moving with their own jobs or not?), or if these applications from people currently working in Dublin, or if these people will actually jump or not when the time comes.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    It hasn't gone away, you know....
    It should be borne in mind that no indication is given of where these applications are coming from (i.e. are they existing job holders moving with their own jobs or not?), or if these applications from people currently working in Dublin, or if these people will actually jump or not when the time comes.

    Or if the applicants are already living within commuting distances of those locations.

    Note that Revenue is considering relocating staff to Navan, expect an announcement just in time for the bye-election.....

    Any idea what the total cost of the scheme will be?


Advertisement