nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

Decentralisation

uncivilservant

As a dublin civil servant, i'm sure most people can guess what my attitude is to the current implementation of mass decentralisation. But i'd be interested to hear what others think.

Good thing? Bad thing? Quit your whining and be happy you have a job?

Anyone?

Mods: I had considered posting this to B/E/F rather than Politics, but to be honest i'm not sure which board it suits more. PI probably ha.

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

The_Conductor

NewDubliner wrote:

Next move will be via Flynn's 'independent' commission & then maybe we'll see some money committed to specific costs & proposals in the budget.QUOTE]

Not necessarily- the following e-mail was sent to all who filled in their CAF applications 10 days ago (including those who filled it in speculatively without any intention whatsoever of moving).....

Further queries to the CAF "hotline" have also elicited the response that they have received the blessing of the Freedom of Information Officer to release these details, and that further changes (if any) may or may not be made to existing applications prior to conveyance of applications to personnel officers (a bit difficult as they have taken the update facility offline.....)

S.
Original Message
From: AutoResponse@publicjobs.ie [mailto:AutoResponse@publicjobs.ie]
Sent: 05 November 2004 16:53
To: SMcCarrick@nospam.nospam.nospam
Subject: Re: Decentralisation application

Dear Applicant,

I would like to thank you for the decentralisation application you made via the Central Application Facility [ CAF ].

Over the coming days/weeks we will be issuing a report to each decentralising Department/Office listing members of their staff that have applied to decentralise. These reports will include staff who have chosen to decentralise with their own Department/Office and staff who have chosen to decentralise with a different Department/Office.

The report will include name, grade, employment status and other details relevant to your application. It will include only the 1st choice location that you selected.

These reports are deemed necessary to help each decentralising Department/Office with their decentralisation plans.

Yours sincerely,
Central Application Facility
Public Appointments Service
(formerly the Office of the Civil Service and Local Appointments Commission)

NewDubliner

smccarrick wrote:

These reports are deemed necessary to help each decentralising Department/Office with their decentralisation plans.

I didn't get that letter, my application must have been lost ;=|

The wording is somewhat aggressive.

The devil is in the details. The departments plans could be going to Finance with huge demands for replacement staff & re-skilling budgets. They'll probably also try to get Finance to take the blame in advance for when things go wrong.

Flynn may be instructed to save Government face by recommending the phasing in of apparently popular moves & deferring the unpopular/not-feasible ones until the electorate has forgotten.

pete

The Government has published a list of the first departments selected for decentralisation out of Dublin.

The first wave will include moving the headquarters of both the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to Drogheda in Co Louth.

Social and Family Affairs will also move 100 staff to Sligo, while Communications, Marine and Natural Resources will move 91 staff to Clonakilty in Co Cork.

The Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism headquarters will move to Killarney in Co Kerry.

The Revenue Commissioners will move 150 staff to Kilrush in Co Clare, Listowel in Co Kerry and Newcastlewest in Co Limerick. Each location will get 50 staff.

The Department of Foreign Affairs will relocate 125 staff to Limerick, while the Irish Prison Service headquarters will move 159 staff to Longford.

The Department of Transport is moving 40 staff to Loughrea in Co Galway, and the Department of Defence headquarters, with its 202 staff, will move to Newbridge in Co Kildare.

The Department of Agriculture is relocating 392 staff to Portlaoise in Co Laois.

The Office of Public Works headquarters will also be in the first wave of transfers, with 333 staff moving to Trim in Co Meath.

Finally, the Department of Finance is moving 135 staff to Tullamore in Co Offaly.

In total, 2,130 civil servants will be moved out of Dublin in the first wave of decentralisation.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/1124/decentralisation.html

Of course nobody's saying when yet.....

pete

spin here: http://finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=2715

pete

pete wrote:

Of course nobody's saying when yet.....

I tell a lie..

Appendix A of http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/decentralisation/refinlocorg.pdf

ishmael whale

Its important in the midst of spin to remember where ‘facts’ originate. If we start hearing that an independent study by Deloitte says that decentralisation will bring cost savings of 5% we should recall this is based on ‘Anecdotal evidence from one Departmental official’.

How this fits in with the non-anecdotal evidence of former housing grants staff in Ballina being left on the payroll with nothing to do after their scheme was abolished or the duplication of costs associated with the Legal Aid Board needing to retain an office in Dublin when it notionally moved to Cahirciveen etc etc is not clear.

Apart from this the financial analysis of costs has one notable omission. It doesn’t actually quantify any costs or savings. We were as wise before as to how much this policy is going to cost us.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/decentralisation/finassesnov04.pdf

Page 21

“It is not possible at this stage to assess the scope for productivity improvements however based on Deloitte experience of relocation programmes efficiency improvements of 5%-10% are not unusual depending on the legacy inefficiencies that have built up over time. Anecdotal evidence from one Departmental official who we met and who had prior experience of decentralisation indicated that productivity savings of 5% plus were achieved.”

BolBill

It's still a FF effort to get votes from people in the relocation centres - simple as that.

The_Conductor

If I manage to stop laughing with incredulity at the gall of the Flynn Commission- I might get a chance to read the whole of the reports. Nice to see the links on the DoF website are working again.....

S.

uncivilservant

Nearly 80% of the OPW’s specialist posts – including engineers, architects and heritage experts – will be unfilled if a recommendation to decentralise the organisation to Trim is implemented, according to IMPACT. The union says the recommendations of the Decentralisation Implementation Group, published today (Wednesday), have simply ignored the problem in order to force through the Government’s ill-thought-out decentralisation plans.

The union also said a consultants’ report on the costs of decentralisation, also published today, contained absolutely no figures, even though the taxpayer will have to meet the wage costs of civil servants who remain in Dublin when their organisations move.

The proposed OPW move to trim would see almost 80 per cent of specialist posts unfilled, while qualified architects, engineers and heritage experts are left behind in Dublin at the taxpayer’s expense. IMPACT says that 149 of the 328 OPW posts earmarked for Trim are specialist – not interchangeable administrative posts. But only 34 specialists – less than 23% of the required number – have volunteered to move there.

Similar problems exist in other departments and offices earmarked for early relocation in today’s report. They include the Department of Communications, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the Department of Agriculture, and the Department of Education and Science.

IMPACT’s figures are based on official statistics produced by the Department of Finance Central Applications Facility (CAF) earlier this year.

They disaggregate trained and qualified staff – many from disciplines experiencing labour market shortages – from the general CAF figures now being used as the basis of decentralisation plans. These staff cannot be replaced from within the civil service. Problems will arise in a number of departments earmarked for early decentralisation in today’s report, including:
OPW – only 23% (34 of 149) of required specialist staff will move to Trim.

Communications – only 26% (6 of 23) of required specialist staff will move to Drogheda, and only 53% (9 of 17) will go to Clonakilty.

The prison service – Only 12% (4 of 34) of required specialist staff will move to Longford.

Agriculture – Only 25% (14 of 57) of required specialist staff will move to Portlaoise.

Environment – only 19% (3 of 16) of required specialist staff will move to Wexford.

Education – Only 4% (1 of 26) of required specialist staff will move to Mullingar and none will move to Athlone.

Defence – only 20% (1 of 5) of required specialist staff will move to Newbridge.

Communications and Rural Affairs – no specialist staff will move to Knock.

IMPACT national secretary Peter Nolan said the Government should not decentralise organisations that depend heavily on specialist staff, regardless of today’s report. “It would be highly arrogant of the Government to put its ill-thought-out decentralisation plans ahead of quality public services. Today’s report is simply ignoring a real threat to services. If implemented, its recommendations would create skills shortages across the civil service while skilled professionals sit idle in Dublin. We need a fundamental review of this programme,” he said.

http://www.impact.ie/media/nov/decent241104.htm

uncivilservant

Amazing to see so many staff heading to Laois / Offally in the "first carriage".

From the "First Movers" list:
Portlaoise -Department of Agriculture HQ: 392
Tullamore - Department of Finance: 135

From the "Initial priority State Agencies list":
Birr - FAS: 390.5
Portarlington - National Council for Curriculum and Assessment: 28

Total: 945.5

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=2715&CatID=1&StartDate=1+January+2004&m=n

Who's their TD again?

Quite gratifying to hear Rawhide Parlon being grilled on News At One (http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/1124/newsatone/news1pm2a.smil) over the Birr Fás move - apparrently only 9 applications to move to Birr have been received from the 390.5 existing staff.

uncivilservant

BolBill some time ago wrote:

5. The buildings outside of Dublin that the Depts are moving to will be generally owed by TDs themselves or associates of TDs hence somebody makes a lot of money from leasing out these buildings.

I just happened across this article:

The article, published in Ireland on Sunday on July 25, highlighted links between Deputy Parlon, his adviser Matt Moore and Mr Moore’s brother, builder Pat Moore in relation to a business opportunity presented by government plans for decentralisation.

Mr Pat Moore is planning to provide office space for some 110 civil servants who are to be decentralised to Portarlington.

Tom Parlon, who claimed much of the credit for the decentralisation of civil service jobs to Laois, is now in charge of securing property for the programme itself.

As Pat Moore is the brother of Mr Parlon’s adviser Matt Moore, questions have been raised about the transparency of the property deals.

http://archives.tcm.ie/laoisnationalist/2004/08/05/story17608.asp

NewDubliner

The bit in the Flynn report about 'pipelining' staff in the ICT areas was amusing. They have no idea what's going on.

RTE's 9pm news raised the often hidden issue of cost & the fuzzy thinking about it.

Another issue that comes to mind is that those working in the offices marked with the black spot of relocation & which are not moving soon, could find promotion blocked unless they agree to leave Dublin, even if the date has not been set and is unlikely to be for many years.

Watch out too for the barbs. If the 150 Revenue jobs in Listowel, Newcastlewest etc are filled from Limerick as is very likely, the Government intends to suppress the equivalent number of jobs in Dublin.

uncivilservant

NewDubliner wrote:

The bit in the Flynn report about 'pipelining' staff in the ICT areas was amusing. They have no idea what's going on.

RTE's 9pm news raised the often hidden issue of cost & the fuzzy thinking about it.

The bottom line is they honestly don't know. Deloitte's report specifically says this:

2.4 ICT
The Decentralisation Programme is likely to give rise to upfront ICT costs for
example, the cost of setting up and testing the IT environment in the new locations; additional network equipment (servers, desktop PCs); additional
telecommunications equipment etc.

However we understand that the operating model for ICT services provided to
decentralising organisations has not been finalised. Although it has been decided to establish three ICT staff centres in Portlaosie, Drogheda and Kildare (and two data centres to house the equipment) it is not clear at this stage the extent (if any) to which of the staff centres / data centres will be used by the Government Departments and Agencies, other than the Dept of Agriculture, DSFA, Revenue, LGSB, Reach and CMOD.

Clearly this could have a significant impact on the overall provision of ICT services for decentralising organisations and the steps required to transition to this model.

Given the lack of clarity on the ICT operating model at this stage it was not possible to consider potential ICT costs / savings. We recommend that a separate exercise be carried out when the ICT strategy for decentralising Departments / Agencies is clarified.

NewDubliner

it is not clear at this stage the extent (if any) to which of the staff centres / data centres will be used by the Government Departments and Agencies, other than the Dept of Agriculture, DSFA, Revenue, LGSB, Reach and CMOD.

It's amazing that it's implied that any department will use the staff or data centres.

There are not many qualified or experienced volunteers. Given the locations,the uncertainty & the pitiful salaries, I think few dynamic, talented IT people will give a thought to joining CMOD's pipeline of succession.

It is far more likely that they'll leave the existing IT staff to wither on the vine & continue to increase the outsourcing as has been done by stealth for the past 10 years.

Dinarius

uncivilservant,

You're being ironic when you ask who the TD for Laois/Offaly is, aren't you? ;-)

Seriously, whatever one might say about the rights and wrongs of decentralisation of civil servants, it is truly stupefying that they havn't rolled back on the decentralisation of Public Servants. This is sheer madness.

e.g. In the case of BIM to Clonakilty, are they going to go into the jobs market and find 93 marine biologists and the like to replace the 93, currently in Dun Laoghaire, who have no intention of going anywhere?

As for Parlon forcing the issue of FAS to Birr. The is even worse. Six acceptances. Three hunderd and ninety two required. What does that arrogant fool think he's going to do?

Just heard him on Saturday View. He couldn't handle the issues at all. Kept referring to Fine Gael's record on various, irrelevant, issues.

In addition to not forcing the Public Servants, they should also have stuck with towns based on expressions of interest. The effect of this would have been twofold;

1. Parlon would have had to concede Birr......at least!

2. Thurles (oversubscribed) would have been included. But, hang on a second........Thurles is no longer represented at the cabinet table since Michael Smith's demise. Hhhhhmmmm.........so, no surprise there then.

It is beyond credibility that Flynn, a former trade unionist, would recommend forcing through the issue of the State Bodies. Equally, the inclusion of towns that no one wants to move to. This is classic Pontius Pilate politics. Get a mouthpiece to say it for you. That way you can blame him/her, while still having it your own way.

This has nothing to do with the common good and everything to do with FF/DP venality.

I hope and pray the the Laois/Offaly electorate remembers Parlon as Mary O'Rourke was remembered after the Eircom debacle.

D.

NewDubliner

Dinarius wrote:

uncivilservant,
As for Parlon forcing the issue of FAS to Birr. The is even worse. Six acceptances. Three hunderd and ninety two required. What does that arrogant fool think he's going to do?
D.

Parlon was challenged about the Fas numbers in a radio interview, his answers were:

1: The unions had told the Fas staff not to cooperate. (Implying that many staff want to go to Birr but the nasty unions won't let them....)

2: Fas had many offices around the country from which volunteers would be found. (In other words, he wants to re-centralise Fas in Birr......)

I think that the phasing of the moves opens issues for staff who want to move but not with their own departments. Will they be allowed to move in the first phase if their own jobs are in the second phase? For example will highly experienced IT staff who do not want to got to Kildare or Portlaoise be allowed to defect to Kilrush, Listowel or even Clonakilty? Or, perhaps will they be forced to remain in Dublin to train in their replacements before being thrown on the scrap-heap when their work is moved?

Dinarius

"For example will highly experienced IT staff who do not want to got to Kildare or Portlaoise be allowed to defect to Kilrush, Listowel or even Clonakilty?"

Which is in effect asking if, for example, an employment specialist currently working with FAS can instead work as a marine biologist in Clon? It just gets crazier and crazier!

I would lay odds that if that fool didn't have state bodies allocated to his constituency, they would have been left alone.

D.

uncivilservant

Dinarius wrote:

I hope and pray the the Laois/Offaly electorate remembers Parlon as Mary O'Rourke was remembered after the Eircom debacle.

Hardly fair to single out Rawhide now, is it?

http://www.rte.ie/news/oireachtas/tds/parlont.html
http://www.rte.ie/news/oireachtas/tds/cowenb.html

ishmael whale

The WDC are now professionally engaged in the business of reality denial.
There essential logic seems to be that people should want to flock West because property is cheaper, skipping over the question that higher prices in Dublin suggests that, on balance, it’s a more attractive place to live. [I’m assuming that we can take it that what Eamon Ó Cuív, T.D.calls “a much richer cultural life” might be called inane boredom by others.]
In their anxiety to attract people they point out that “for those planning on setting up their own business, big or small, the level of state aid available to businesses within the WDC area is considerably more attractive than that available around Dublin.”, state that commuting times are shorter and note that the region can be accessed by two international airports. Can we take this to mean they’ll stop suggesting that the West is neglected, and accept they have been given a generous share of available resources ?
On the lookwest.ie website they’re happy to boast about the low pupil teacher ratio in primary schools. Would they like to acknowledge that this is paid for by the enormous class sizes experienced in the main cities? Who do they think is paying for all this? Do they really think that people in Dublin should continue to shell out so that the West can live out some sort of mock rural fantasy?
http://www.wdc.ie/news.asp?id=80
www.lookwest.ie
Look West Initiative

29 November 2004
“Living in the West can give you 16 extra hours a week to enjoy”

“Much shorter commuting and 50% cheaper housing make compelling case to Look West”

Monday 29th November 2004

“People who live within the commuter belts around the greater Dublin region can spend up to 20 hours a week commuting, while the average commute in the Western region is around 4 hours a week, and often much less than that” according to Dr. Pat O’Hara, Policy Manager, of the Western Development Commission (WDC). She added, “Choosing to live in the West can give you up to sixteen hours extra in a week to enjoy a much higher quality of life. When you consider that housing costs here can be as much as 50% lower, there is a compelling case for people to Look West.” Dr. O’Hara was speaking at the launch today (Mon 29th November 2004) of the Look West initiative by the WDC, aimed at attracting people to move from Dublin and surrounding counties to the seven western counties – from Donegal to Clare – in the WDC region……………..
Welcoming the Look West initiative, Éamon Ó Cuív, T.D., Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, said, "There has been an awful lot of misinformation in the media surrounding decentralisation and the implied hardships that it would bring. The facts speak for themselves. People who choose to relocate from the greater Dublin area can have a super quality of life, across the board, from being able to afford better housing, cheaper food and drink, having a sense of space, not spending what appears to be their entire lives in traffic and of course a much richer cultural life……….

The Look West initiative includes billboard advertising on the main Dublin commuter routes with a tag line urging commuters to ‘Look West for a less stressful life’ or ‘Look West for more affordable living’. Radio ads will be broadcast during rush-hour traffic and a website, www.lookwest.ie gives the many benefits of moving west and comprehensive information on housing, schooling, culture and social life.

FOR FURTHER DETAILS PLEASE CONTACT
For further information please contact
Conall O Morain, The Media Group, 01 – 2755975 or 0872 463 111
Or Dr. Pat O’Hara, Western Development Commission, 087 686 2772

The_Conductor

Don't think I saw this press release from our press office anywhere? The bit about Decentralisation not breaking even until 2026 is interesting. Hmmmm- one thing decentralisation is teaching all of us- is to be accomplished at reading between the lines.......

S.

NewDubliner

Anyone see Revenue's circular for internal promotion to AP?

There's a reference in it to eligibility being based on a willingness to move to 'specified locations'.

What would they be now?

gazzer

Yeah i saw that revenue circular yesterday as well... not that i am eligible for the promotion or anything... i'd say from now on that clause is going to be on all competitions.

ishmael whale

If the good Councillor is looking for something to sell to the people of Mayo, he could start by pointing out that in 2001 Mayo households paid €315 million in tax, but received €356 million in various income supports. This means that, in the swings and roundabouts, Mayo households receive a net €820 in income supports per person. By contrast, Dublin households contribute a net €2,000 in tax per head, and the rest of the Mid East isn’t far behind.

Other points that might be sold include the €3.2 million subsidy paid out every year to keep Knock Airport going, and the undisclosed amount spent keeping the Westport/Ballina railway open. An educationally minded Councillor might comment on how primary schools in Mayo have a ratio of 17.4 pupils per teacher, as against 19.5 per teacher in Dublin. He might add how the GMIT Castlebar campus is unique among non-private sector colleges in that, according to the CAO, six of its eight Diploma/Certificate course are open to anyone who turns up with a leaving cert, because there’s so little demand for places.

So, just off the top of the head, there seems to be plenty for Councillors to sell on the doorstep around Mayo without the need to advocate dismembering central government.

http://www.mayonews.ie/current/news.tmpl$showpage?value1=3310889577167759

Claremorris ‘let down’ and ‘cheated’
Elisha Commins
elishacommins@mayonews.ie
‘CHEATED’ is how Fianna Fail councillor in Claremorris, Pat McHugh feels, following the announcement of the government’s decentralisation plans last week. Fifteen locations around the country were identified as top priorities for decentralisation with neither of the two Mayo locations (Claremorris and Knock Airport) featuring on this list, contrary to expectations and assurances given to public representatives. ……………………"As a Fianna Fail councillor, you go out and sell this idea to people but I will certainly be asking very serious questions at the next Fianna Fail party meeting," Cllr. McHugh said this week. ………”

NewDubliner

‘CHEATED’ is how Fianna Fail councillor in Claremorris, Pat McHugh feels, following the announcement of the government’s decentralisation plans last week. Fifteen locations around the country were identified as top priorities for decentralisation with neither of the two Mayo locations (Claremorris and Knock Airport) featuring on this list

Have a heart, the poor man just wanted a few cuddly civil servants to give his constituents for Christmas.....;-)

ishmael whale

This is article is a little disappointing, as I can remember reading reasonably sensible stuff in Waterford local media to the effect of what use was an office full of civil servants when what they were really campaigning for was a radiotherapy unit.

Waterford households are also a net contributor to the public finances, to the tune of about €1075 net tax per head. While only half of the average Dublin contribution and while Waterford’s total contribution of €49 million is dwarfed by Dublin’s €2,221 million, perhaps if he was aware that they are net contributors the writer of this editorial might see a better use for this money than relocating some office staff.

http://www.waterford-today.ie/index.php?id=12555&what=2&issue=228

Editorial - Decentralisation setback for Waterford
The roll-out by the Government of their decentralisation plans last week is a major blow to the aspirations of Waterford City and County. The pledge of 500 jobs plus is just another in a litany of broken promises made by this administration to the constituency. The verbal savaging of Fianna Fail T.D., Ollie Wilkinson on local radio is indicative of the fury the public feel about this issue. ……. However, the announcement by the Government last Monday which completely ignored Waterford has rankled with many people. Even the national press has singled out Martin Cullen, Minister for Transport for special mention in this regard and commented that the announcement was a political set-back for the Minister. ……... Certainly as far as Waterford is concerned, there will be no decentralisation before the next General Election due in just over two years time. ……….

Tuars

ishmael whale wrote:

Mayo households receive a net €820 in income supports per person. By contrast, Dublin households contribute a net €2,000 in tax per head, and the rest of the Mid East isn’t far behind.

ishmael whale wrote:

Waterford’s total contribution of €49 million is dwarfed by Dublin’s €2,221 million

Just wondering if you've offset the Dublin contribution against the wage bill for Dublin based civil servants?

The_Conductor

Tuars wrote:

Just wondering if you've offset the Dublin contribution against the wage bill for Dublin based civil servants?

In that case- how about offsetting the work done by Dublin based civil servants against any assistance they render non-Dublin based citizens........

You could go around in a massive circle here......

ishmael whale

smccarrick wrote:

how about offsetting the work done by Dublin based civil servants against any assistance they render non-Dublin based citizens...

That’s about the size of it.

The key point is that little recognition is given to the fact that costs of government are chiefly carried by Dublin, just as little recognition is given to the extent that resources are traditionally diverted from Dublin and invested in regional areas.

Tuars

smccarrick wrote:

You could go around in a massive circle here......

More of a spiral than a circle. Without intervention centralisation begets more centralisation.

Ishmael's points regarding the west need to be put in that context. The low pupil-teacher ratios, high availability of college places, short commuting times, and lower house prices can largely be attributed to the fact that the local population is constantly migrating to Dublin for work.

BTW I'm opposed to the proposed decentralisation but not to decentralisation in principle. We need to decentralise the population but we need to do it right. I think Ishmael's potshots at the west distract from this.

Tuars

ishmael whale wrote:

The key point is that little recognition is given to the fact that costs of government are chiefly carried by Dublin, just as little recognition is given to the extent that resources are traditionally diverted from Dublin and invested in regional areas.

But my point was Dublin benefits more than you are allowing for because of the civil servant wage bill. Did you include this in your figures?